Author Topic: Stuff's blow'n up  (Read 33532 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Yeah I don't know how you can call that 'unfortunate', Joshua; do you not 'monitor' people you know to see if they say anything objectionable?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Yeah I don't know how you can call that 'unfortunate', Joshua; do you not 'monitor' people you know to see if they say anything objectionable?

Monitor might be too light a phrase to describe what I meant with that. It's more an environment that is similar to an US election where Obama got flak because one of the priests he listens to shouted "God bless America? God DAMN America! For killing innocent people!" and depending on who you talk to the last sentence might be omitted. There's probably a very easy english word for it but it doesn't cross my mind right now.

There is a difference in government monitoring and monitoring done by people who are hell bent on discrediting you. It's the latter enviroment that is a bit meh, as it leads to situations where an Imam who is critical of NATO's deployment in Afghanistan is framed as in favour of killing dutch servicemen and a critique of Israel's policies is immeaditely considered anti-semetic in the same vein that the Israeli foreign minister considers the UN to be anti-semetic. A difference between being critical and outright heckling, which is then reported by The Telegraph (not as bad as the Daily Mail but still quite awfull sometimes) and then the statements are questioned by the nationalists in parliament, by then completely devoid of any nuance, context, or even accuracy.

That being said, this has only happened a few times (eg once a year). I'm all in for an enviroment that dissuades intolerance, but there's a limit when statements asking for tolerance to muslims are painted as anti-western.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
There's probably a very easy english word for it but it doesn't cross my mind right now.
"disingenuous"?
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

  
There's probably a very easy english word for it but it doesn't cross my mind right now.
"disingenuous"?

Something in between that and heckler's veto.

 

Offline zookeeper

  • *knock knock* Who's there? Poe. Poe who?
  • 210
Mika is suggesting that we criminalise being someone who knows a terrorist on the grounds that although we can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they should have known. That's bull**** and a complete about-face on the most important assumption in criminal law, innocence unless proven guilty.

Well, we'll see whether he agrees. My money's on him not suggesting that.


Mika is not talking about prosecutions for conspiracy because he's claimed that
3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack. There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before.

i.e that we don't prosecute for conspiracy when it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. He has of course offered no proof whatsoever that this is actually the case.

Excellent point, and a fine choice of how to challenge thatl suggestion. I know nothing of whether and where those kind of people are prosecuted or not, so no disagreement there.


I'm an idiot. Explain to me exactly how it is proven that someone had full knowledge a crime was about to be committed, did nothing and yet wasn't a conspirator.

I can't, because you're apparently insisting that having such full knowledge makes one a (co-)conspirator. And yeah, I don't have anything against that. But, Mika was clearly not calling them co-conspirators, so obviously that's what we've gone by. You can't take his implicit definition of such people not being co-conspirators, switch to your own definition of them being co-conspirators, and then use that to argue that he must have been saying that he thinks people you don't consider as co-conspirators should be prosecuted. Maybe that's not what's happening, but that's what it looks like to me. In any case, this is too many layers deep to be able to say!


Cause somehow I suspect that such cases are very rare even if they have actually happened. In which case Mika is making mountains out of molehills in an attempt to generate outrage.

Yes, seems likely that they are rare.

But if you go back to page 2 and look at that point 3 out of 4 in the original post, and then compare to The_E's response with the pile of hyperbolic strawmen in it ("jail sentence for not being a mindreader", "jail sentence for answering a question on the chemistry stackoverflow", "people will flood the authorities with bull**** reports because their neighbour prays to Mecca"), there ought to be no question of which one "making mountains out of molehills in an attempt to generate outrage" more accurately describes.

So, what does anyone actually disagree about? No one thinks that not being a mindreader should be punishable. Everyone thinks that having full knowledge of forthcoming mass murder and not alerting authorities should be punishable. Everyone agrees that such knowledge can often be impossible to prove in court. There's possibly some disagreement on whether the label co-conspirator should apply to all such people or not. No one seems to know whether the law (where?) considers such people co-conspirators. No one seems to know whether they are usually prosecuted for it, if the law does so consider.


Finally, here's my suggestion:

3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack. There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before. It doesn't matter you'll need to investigate the actions of couple of hundred people (in the worst case); in reality the worst case is not to do anything about their inaction and telling them hiding this sort of activity from the officials is somehow acceptable. If they don't have nationality, expel. If they acquired nationality, or are born in the country, then the verdict is significant time in jail, like 15-20 years.

What makes you think that the laws in question are not being applied currently? Proving that a person actually had full knowledge of preparations of a terrorist attack is very difficult, and in the rare case that that can be established, it is most likely enough to consider them a co-conspirator, resulting in significant jail time. So, are you saying that there currently tends to be no prosecution in those cases even if the law allows, and if so, what's your source for that?

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Quote of a week (Finnish MEP in Bruxelles): "We're spending quite a wonderful week against racism here!" (And yes, that is sarcasm - attributed actually to the day of the the strike)

Zookeeper's interpretation is correct, as were the earlier Eastern Europeans. Have to make a mental note that charge may not be entirely synonymous with prosecute.

Quote
What makes you think that the laws in question are not being applied currently? Proving that a person actually had full knowledge of preparations of a terrorist attack is very difficult, and in the rare case that that can be established, it is most likely enough to consider them a co-conspirator, resulting in significant jail time. So, are you saying that there currently tends to be no prosecution in those cases even if the law allows, and if so, what's your source for that?

Thanks for taking the time for an intelligent reply. I'm not saying there's no prosecution. I'm saying that it's not pressed as far as it could (and should) be within the confines of the law. Unfortunately, we are apparently dealing with people being scared offending the muslims in their own country. The evidence? Swedes have found automatic firearms and hand grenades in home searches of the muslims in - ahem -troubled areas. While I could accept that hiding a hand-grenade without knowledge of your room-mates could be somewhat possible, that defense doesn't work with an assault rifle (and hasn't in the case of Finnish citizens). But that has happened already. There's a case of storing a loaded illegal shotgun in a pizza store here. Had this been a Finnish restaurant, the Finns would be charged and likely facing time in jail - every single one of them. What happened when Turks did it? There's our police saying shotgun blast to the roof was overblown in media, there's no need for alarm and police is looking into this... and one guy of that ruckus was arrested. One.

Additionally, a car was parked next to a reception center in Southern Finland. This raised alarm of the staff, and they requested police to check it out. Turned out to be a Finn with an SMG. An illegal weapon here, and getting discovered with one results in strict punishments and some years in jail. Media immediately speculated this was attempted raid on the reception center, but never thought it could have been the reception center occupants asking for an illegal weapon. Which turned out to be the case. The case was shushed under the carpet, with a slap on the wrist for the reception center participants. The actual Finnish legalization would have allowed for a far more thorough investigation of the reception center people but that was actually not pressed. It has been utilized before in the case of Finnish criminal gangs.

The revealing question is why are no-go-zones allowed in the European cities? I believe the answer lies in the fact that these zones would require far more police work than the other regions, making it look like as if the government was on to them. So instead, the politicians take the easy way out: close their eyes on it and wish it goes away. When the opposite should be done: if the areas need more officers, adding them there is not discrimination, and not doing it is positive discrimination.

So there is a very real double standard in the European legalization enforcement on what it comes to dealing with muslim immigrants compared to the actual citizens of the countries. A Finnish MP actually proposed, and get this, utilizing Sharia law when it doesn't conflict with the existing Finnish law. He saw nothing wrong in the proposal, until a general uproar took place. Don't mind that the muslims are not even the greatest minority here, so why didn't he first propose Russian or Swedish laws? Thankfully, he got out of the office, and probably will never see the parliament building again.

For the rest of you asking the wisdom of angering muslim population with tricks like pig skins:
There's a point in pissing of the immigrants before they get to integrate and move more freely in the society. This is especially relevant here when there is like 30 000 dudes hanging around in the reception centers with no nationality or permits. Those getting radicalized are easiest to recognize at this point and can do least harm. So what would we do with those getting angry? Send them back home. And it's not as if we haven't fed pork to muslims already (accidentally). The result was actually quite hilarious when they found out. :lol: The moderates we want here will not be pissed of by this anyways, and those who get aggravated get the shortest geodesic home.

Given that it's one day after the Bruxelles strike, we were already thinking of imaginative methods of pissing of the muslims in the most offending way possible at the office coffee break. The winning proposal was to capture the Sacred rock from Medina in January, and ground it to fine sand and apply it to the floors of pigsties. Or making videos asking ransoms for the parts of the stone. That doesn't mean we would do it though.

When you are faced with immigration where a significant fraction of the people do not want to integrate, you'll really have to get Macchiavellian on them. You introduce a favorite, and punish those who don't comply (both positive and negative feedbacks being important - positive feedback only doesn't work as evidenced by Sweden).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 07:13:36 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline zookeeper

  • *knock knock* Who's there? Poe. Poe who?
  • 210
Well, I tried... :sigh:

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Mika, consider this your last warning: cut the racist bull**** or stop posting in here.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
The revealing question is why are no-go-zones allowed in the European cities?

Holy ****, were you just not here for the last thread where Goober posted about this and it was debunked by every source from here to Snopes including the ones he cited in the end? Because you posted in it!

Be on the lookout, someone has hijacked Mika's account.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 
Quote
(both positive and negative feedbacks being important - positive feedback only doesn't work as evidenced by Sweden).

Yeah, Breivik murdering all those kids did wonders for Swedish integration!

 
Breivik was in Norway.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Holy ****, were you just not here for the last thread where Goober posted about this and it was debunked by every source from here to Snopes including the ones he cited in the end? Because you posted in it!

When you say "no go zone" as meaning a zone where police does not enter due to fear, then yeah, those dont exist. But no go zones as a wider term for a muslim ghetto where people are kinda afraid to go due to immigrant crime and muslim culture is dominant over native one is a reality in westen Europe right now. Case in point: Molenbeek. Debunked my ass.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
There's a point in pissing of the immigrants before they get to integrate and move more freely in the society. This is especially relevant here when there is like 30 000 dudes hanging around in the reception centers with no nationality or permits. Those getting radicalized are easiest to recognize at this point and can do least harm. So what would we do with those getting angry? Send them back home. And it's not as if we haven't fed pork to muslims already (accidentally). The result was actually quite hilarious when they found out. :lol: The moderates we want here will not be pissed of by this anyways, and those who get aggravated get the shortest geodesic home.

I agree. I said it before when we were discussing Draw Muhammad Day and Ill say it again: the only people who can radicalize due to insults to their religion were well on their way to be radicals in the first place. Their radicalization is more of a way of uncovering a preexisting problem rather than creating a new one.

The reverse is also true: islamic extremism will certainly not be solved by trying to appease the muslims. They will just see it as a weakness and thus further confirmation that their ideology is superior to western culture. In fact, Western Europe is probably the most tolerant place in the world, and did it help them to integrate muslims? Nope.

My point here isnt that you should go out of your way to piss of muslims, but more like it doesnt really matter if you do or not. It is not the deciding factor. A muslim extremist who does not turn violent because he is being appeased is still a muslim extremist.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 04:30:33 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
This is very worrying if true, altrough I cant find a better source than Express, so take it with a grain of salt:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/653818/Molenbeek-terror-raid-Paris-attacks-Salah-Abdeslam-Belgium-riot-police

Quote
TENSE scenes have broken out between locals and security forces in Molenbeek following the arrest of Salah Abdeslam with some residents reportedly “praising” the evil Paris terrorist.

Riot police were called in to disperse the crowds who gathered in the Brussels suburb after missiles were thrown at the Belgian authorities.

Tensions were sparked after young people from the troubled area started declaring their support for their “hero” Abdeslam, according to a witness.

An eyewitness posted on Twitter: “Great tension in Molenbeek with young people from the area praising their ‘hero’ Salah Abdeslam."
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Holy ****, were you just not here for the last thread where Goober posted about this and it was debunked by every source from here to Snopes including the ones he cited in the end? Because you posted in it!

When you say "no go zone" as meaning a zone where police does not enter due to fear, then yeah, those dont exist. But no go zones as a wider term for a muslim ghetto where people are kinda afraid to go due to immigrant crime and muslim culture is dominant over native one is a reality in westen Europe right now. Case in point: Molenbeek. Debunked my ass.

Actually, Molenbeek is not a case in point at all: Roughly 25 to 40% of it's inhabitants are muslim depending on cathment area. The case of Molenbeek is not one of a dominant muslim culture but more of the area being impoverished and overcrowded. The foreign correspondents of the NOS (dutch public news broadcasters) in Brussels live in Molenbeek (cheap appartments!) and have noted this.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 05:31:59 am by -Joshua- »

 
It's pretty blackly comic that Mika wants blanket cultural reprisals directed at the entire Muslim population of Europe for the actions of a minority of violent extremists, on the hundredth anniversary of the Easter Rising.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
As I think I said in the last inevitable topic about such matters, it's frankly somewhat comforting to learn that the US doesn't hold a monopoly on blindingly-ignorant cultural intolerance.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
somewhat misleading title
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline AtomicClucker

  • 28
  • Runnin' from Trebs
Well, Mika's done a fine job putting his foot in his mouth.

In the meantime, we can rest assured Euro governments will arrest people for threatening tweets, rather than aiming for good anti-terror practices (hint, actually get the police and intelligence community to work silently not to tip off terrorist cells).

I've a pretty divided take on the immigration situation - I think it's pretty foolish that many think the immigrants can "magically" integrate, on the other hand though, expecting a sane rational response isn't going to happen as well. The Europeans citizenry have every right to be concerned about it, but the government are so terrified of "racism" and politically incorrect they might as well hand the baton to extremist nationalists. And the worse part is that multiculturalism and tolerance are considered the enemy.

As I've said, really, I've no mercy for idiots who perpetuate "everything is fine" and then try to smooth it over by arresting and silencing people saying it isn't. Just ask Merkel and her quips to Facebook.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 
Apparently the Crying TinTin that an artist has drawn in response to the attacks is being called Racist already. Yeah, just like Je suis Charlie. Kinda getting sick of hearing stuff like this.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 04:14:04 am by Mammothtank »