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Author Topic: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]  (Read 32345 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
The fact that this particular Voyage of the Damned ended without even the dignity of a naval battle at the end makes the whole thing even more sad than it was in reality (and that particular bit of insanity was already pretty damn sad to begin with!)
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
So is the Deutsche Demokratische Republik going to have a go?
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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Ya know, the problem with having the absolute finest battleship fleet in the hemisphere is that nobody wants to fight it, so the Kongou sisters still haven't seen any action :(

 
Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Actually, the Americans had no qualms in fighting the Japanese super-heavy battleships --- from the air. I find myself constantly wondering how this whole thing would go with aircraft carriers.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
If I'm not mistaken the ONI didn't have a clear understanding of what the Yamato class actually entailed until after the war.  The Montanas for example where designed to have an immunity zone against US 16" Mark 8 "Super-heavy" shells not the IJN 40 cm/45 Type 94 naval gun. 

Given that lack of clear intel if Halsey had not pulled Task Force 34 of covering San Bernardino, Willis Lee probably would have had no qualms about having a go with Kurita.  Which, I would imagine, would have ended up the definitive surface engagement of the war.
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
The fact that this particular Voyage of the Damned ended without even the dignity of a naval battle at the end makes the whole thing even more sad than it was in reality (and that particular bit of insanity was already pretty damn sad to begin with!)

I share the sadness. It was truly pathetic.

So is the Deutsche Demokratische Republik going to have a go?

Spoiler:
Eventually

Ya know, the problem with having the absolute finest battleship fleet in the hemisphere is that nobody wants to fight it, so the Kongou sisters still haven't seen any action :(

Spoiler:
Relax. They'll have their day. Against both the Russians and the Germans

Actually, the Americans had no qualms in fighting the Japanese super-heavy battleships --- from the air. I find myself constantly wondering how this whole thing would go with aircraft carriers.

The considerably earlier development of the RADAR equivalent in this timeline has made the anti-air abilities of the ships in question considerably better than their OTL contemporaries. The Battle of Taranto never took place here, and no Admiral will risk an airstrike against an enemy fleet: common wisdom says the planes will be chewed up by radar-controlled secondaries and tertiaries.

Aircraft carriers exist, but they're scout carriers with a small wing, primarily meant to find the enemy fleet for the BBs to engage.

If I'm not mistaken the ONI didn't have a clear understanding of what the Yamato class actually entailed until after the war.  The Montanas for example where designed to have an immunity zone against US 16" Mark 8 "Super-heavy" shells not the IJN 40 cm/45 Type 94 naval gun. 

You are not mistaken. The Americans thought that the Yamato had 16 inch guns until after the war - and they had no idea that the Yamato shells were designed for under-the-waterline penetrations / shockwave damage.
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
If I'm not mistaken the ONI didn't have a clear understanding of what the Yamato class actually entailed until after the war.  The Montanas for example where designed to have an immunity zone against US 16" Mark 8 "Super-heavy" shells not the IJN 40 cm/45 Type 94 naval gun. 

You are not mistaken. The Americans thought that the Yamato had 16 inch guns until after the war - and they had no idea that the Yamato shells were designed for under-the-waterline penetrations / shockwave damage.

IIRC I read an analysis once (I can't remember where) that stated that at long range (plunging fire) the US BB's would have had the advantage against the Yamato/Musashi, however in a hypothetical surface engagement due to the aforementioned lack of intel it's likely that the US captains would have closed the range ASAP & handed the advantage to the Yamato.

Also re ships anti-air capabilities, I though the proximity fuse was a bigger deal than radar control (which is still damn important, don't get me wrong) due to it essentially turning a 3D interception problem into a 2D one. Does RTW deal with development of the prox fuse, and when would it have been developed in your timeline?
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
If I'm not mistaken the ONI didn't have a clear understanding of what the Yamato class actually entailed until after the war.  The Montanas for example where designed to have an immunity zone against US 16" Mark 8 "Super-heavy" shells not the IJN 40 cm/45 Type 94 naval gun. 

You are not mistaken. The Americans thought that the Yamato had 16 inch guns until after the war - and they had no idea that the Yamato shells were designed for under-the-waterline penetrations / shockwave damage.

IIRC I read an analysis once (I can't remember where) that stated that at long range (plunging fire) the US BB's would have had the advantage against the Yamato/Musashi, however in a hypothetical surface engagement due to the aforementioned lack of intel it's likely that the US captains would have closed the range ASAP & handed the advantage to the Yamato.

Also re ships anti-air capabilities, I though the proximity fuse was a bigger deal than radar control (which is still damn important, don't get me wrong) due to it essentially turning a 3D interception problem into a 2D one. Does RTW deal with development of the prox fuse, and when would it have been developed in your timeline?

Re: prox fuse: yes, in OTL they're hugely important for anti-air. The game doesn't support them, given the general lack of aircraft; but given that the prox fuse is, essentially, a miniaturised doppler radar, it is not beyond the capabilities of the JA.

The main thing is that there is no reason to actually build them. Nobody has invested in offensive naval aviation to a degree that it is necessary to develop them.
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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Maybe in RTW2 offensive naval aviation will be a thing. Given that the soft end of RTW is 1925, I would think that RTW2 would start in 1925, but I'm not sure how far after that to cut it off. Maybe some time into the Cold War era?
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
It has been pretty much confirmed that naval aviation will be a major aspect of RTW2. What hasn't been revealed yet is how the mechanics will work.

And I believe that the game is scheduled to cover the years 1925-1950 or so (hopefully allowing for an earlier start, a la RTW 1 - I'd love to play through the Battleship - Carrier transition).
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Offline crizza

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Imagine if you could flesh out CVs in RTW2 in an earlier startdate :D
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
I imagine you could. With focus on the appropriate research (and if you're playing with a Major Power, like GB, USA or Germany) you can have dreadnoughts ca. 1902~1903 in RTW1. With a proper head start (and deliberate focus on naval aviation) you should be able to acquire Carriertech much earlier than OTL in RTW2.

Of course, the AI will immediately shift priorities to counter you, so they'll acquire carriers early as well.
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So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 
Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
The Brits had the HMS Furious, and they previously also had some seaplane carriers, but I can't imagine carrier tech going out much earlier then that. Consider this: The HMS Furious went out and did her thing in 1916. The HMS Ark Royal, a seaplane carrier that should not be confused with the aircraft carrier of the same name, went out and did her thing in 1914. The Wright Flyer went out in 1903. OTL went from the invention of aviation to the usage of naval aviation in combat in a timespan of 10 years. I can't really imagine it going much faster then that without somehow inventing airplanes earlier.

Also, they also used Airships in naval combat. I consider this to be rad.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
The Japanese had the first prupose build CV or am I wrong?
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
You are not. Hosho, the best momboat.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
It will be interesting to see how they implement it.  There is so much more to successful naval aviation than just building the bird farm, the weapons, communication and most of all doctrine is essential to carrier warfare.
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Offline Enioch

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Post-war, the Naval budget was slashed, but to a considerably lesser degree than what was expected. The Palace, the Government and the Allies were grimly satisfied by the performance of the Navy: more significantly, the British and the Americans were seeing in Japan a godsent. In all the ways that really counted, Japan had proven herself to be the single stabilising force in the eastern hemisphere and the bastion of the old regimes against the Communist threat.

And her successes were not limited to the battlefronts. Her spying rings delivered the designs of the new German Battlecruisers. The June Junta (or "Deutsche Demokratische Republik" as they called themselves) classified them as Deutschland-class; the Japanese insistently called them Graf Spee-class, as they had originally been named at the start of her construction under Wilhelm's rule.



They were not bad ships, all told; but their design showed a crippling inexperience in modern warfare. For one thing, they sported a 12-inch belt, that was heavy enough to cost them a knot in speed, but not heavy enough to stop the Japanese 17-inchers at any range. For another, they carried less guns (and smaller guns) than the Fearsome Four. Finally, they were more than 3k tons heavier than their Japanese counterparts (and considerably more expensive to produce) with, essentially, nothing to show for it except 2.5 inches of useless belt armor.



Despite the declaration of peace, nobody in Japan believed that this would be more than a temporary cease-fire. It was time to prepare for the next round. The upgunning of the Japanese heavy cruisers continued, with the Myokos entering the drydocks; and all of the Fearsome Four were also drydocked, for extensive maintenance of their machinery and gunnery systems.



The Admiralty was not particularly happy when the Prime Minister suggested a repeat of the old shooting competitions: most of the favourites were unavailable. However, it was a good opportunity to show the flag in the South China Sea and antagonise the Russians.



Mikasa and Yamato made the best showing; but, in the end, the old girl spanked the youngster.



A look at the international situation. Note that Japan dominates the Dreadnought tonnage over her opponents, but loses in Battlecruiser tonnage to the Germans. The Admiralty was not particularly concerned about that. Quality over quantity; and, given what the Japanese had seen so far, German quality had gone downhill quite fast in the last years. Also, the newest Japanese BBS were just three knots slower than the fastest German battlecruisers.

As a sidenote: holy crap, America, 990k tons of BCs?



And all of them 35-36k ton designs (sigh).



I mean, seriously?





Well, crap. That was unfortunate.



Wait, what? They still operate these things? Holy crap, DDR, get your **** together.



Or, better yet, don't.



Ooooh, now here's an interesting design. An almost destroyer-like light cruiser. It can't stand up to a fight with the Kumas, but it's two knots faster, so it can disengage. Reminds me of the French Syrcoufs, only a knot faster.

Well, it should be a good raider - unless the Russians got that extra knot by tuning the engines for speed rather than reliability, in which case this thing will fall apart three months in a war.


Because Socialist maintenance practices are known around the world.



By May, the Japanese Battle-line was coming together again. Note that Japan leads the world (including the Brits and Americans) in cruiser tonnage; and that most of her cruiser fleet is comprised of heavy cruisers, capable of punching considerably above their class. The Japanese 8-inchers were capable of easily punching through a 12-inch belt at 5000 yards and rendered all armour under 6.5 inches irrelevant at any range.



In June 1946, a Communist riot in Panjin escalated into a rebellion, with Russia feeding the rebels with weapons and ammunition. Several Japanese nationals were trapped by the rebels and used as hostages; unfortunately for the rebels, the Japanese had a no-negotiating policy. Three captives (an Army Major and two Captains) took their own lives to prevent being used as negotiating chips; five more were rescued when a detachment of the Imperial Guard was deployed, in collaboration with the Chinese authorities. Following the release of the hostages, Yamato and Mikasa dropped more than three hundred shells on rebel strongholds, from 25 kilometres away.



The Japanese response was felt throughout the international scene. The Russians and Germans exploded with official denouncements of the 'capitalist and imperialistic opporession of the fighting proletariat'; the western world were grimly supportive of the Japanese efforts. Sadly, the congratulatory message sent by the USA did not come from the pen of F.D Roosevelt. Three days before the release of the hostages, 'Franklin-ojii-san' died in his bed. Harry Truman took up the Presidency; and, while he was not the fanatic supporter of Japanese policies that his predecessor was and allowed the USA-Japan Military Alliance to lapse, he stayed true to the spirit of the 'Pacific Neighbours' ideal.



And then, military intelligence presented the Japanese Admiralty with the designs of the new Izmail battlecruiser. Oh, those Russians.

In short, the Reds had taken the Graf Spee design from the Germans, and had gone full ham with it. The Izmail bore the heaviest broadside ever to be put on a battlecruiser, with twelve 16-inchers, in an ABQXY 32223 configuration. It paid for this broadside with an inch less armor than its German counterpart (still more armor than it could effectively use), and with a top speed that was equivalent to the modern Japanese Dreads.

In short, the Russians were putting a lot of gun-eggs in a single, fragile, slow basket. This ship would be able to seriously hurt any of the Fearsome Four in a one-on-one duel, but the Japanese battlecruisers never operated alone. And they could disengage at will, given their considerably higher speeds, and dictate the engagement (i.e. cross the Russian's T).

Bad, bad, bad doctrine, Iosef.



In contrast, the Latvik-class heavy cruisers were quite capable design. They had less guns than their Japanese counterparts, but they were 9-inchers, which gave them an extra punch against capital ships. And they were as fast as the older Takaos.





In response, the Japanese commenced a modernisation program for their light forces. Modernisation designs were suggested, first for a new destroyer class (the Shimakazes) and, then, for a modernisation of the Mutsukis. But, in the end, funds were channeled to the Sendai project:





Like the Kumas, the Sendais were relatively slow raiders. But they bore a heavier armament than their older cousins (nine 6-inchers), very reliable machinery, a massive mine- and torpedo complement and very good torpedo protection for their class.



And then, on the afternoon of the 5th of May 1947, the Kuma-class Yaeyama ran aground on the treacherous waters off Kamtchatka, in blatant violation (again) of Russian territory. Being much lighter than the Myoko, she did not take long to float herself off again; but the Russians had had enough of the Japanese provocations. The Russian cruiser Pamyat Merkuryia was deployed to intercept her as she returned to Japan. Unfortunately for the Russians, the Yaeyama had been joined by her sister-ship Unebi, in turn escorted by a destroyer flotilla. Unaware, the Russian ship sailed into a massively superior force.

Shortly after 09:30, on the 6th, the Japanese ships picked up the Merkuryia in their ITMS scopes. Frantic messages were sent for orders to HQ: the Admiralty response was:

'If they should fire but a single shot at you, you must engage them with your all, until their ship is destroyed'

At 09:49, the Merkuryia fires a full broadside at Unebi. The Japanese ship is hit once, on her deck, and the Russian shell fails to penetrate.

And the rest, as they say, is history. With that single shot, the Great War began - a war that would serve as Japan's final and greatest test.




-END PART 5-
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:32:42 am by Enioch »
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

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Offline Spoon

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Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Yasen?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Re: Enioch's naval shenanigans - RTW as Japan - [Image Heavy!]
Yasen?
Yasen!!! At least I hope Enioch lets the Sendais do some glorious night battles  :D


Quite interesting how the game develops on the long run. I stopped playing at 1925 but maybe I should have continued. Anyway, good luck to Japan at trashing those communists once and for all this time :cool:
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Offline Enioch

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The Long Silent Lance / Splits the Calm Sapphire Waters / My Foe's Bleak Despair
- PART 7 -
The Great War



The time is 09:49, on the 6th of May 1947. The Russian light cruiser Pamyat Merkuryia has opened fire at HIJMS Unebi. The Great War has begun, without any of the usual niceties, like a formal declaration.



The Russian ship is a lightly armored, slightly faster version of the Japanese Kumas. She can outrun them, but not outfight them. Yet her captain closes the range. The Japanese ships accept the challenge - ten minutes of rapid-fire follow, with spectacular seamanship shown by both sides.





Then, at exactly 10:10, a shot fired from the Merkuryia smashes into Unebi's bridge. Captain Musashi and seven officers are cut to pieces by the shrapnel. Fire engulfs the bridge systems and Unebi drifts on. Her fire control and conning tower, however, are still operational; Lieutenant Towaru assumes command, assigns a helmsman to the engineering bridge and slots his ship behind the Yaeyama.



The Japanese ships continue to close the range. They hammer the Merkuryia at under five thousand yards; three shots slam into her belt and superstructure. The Russian bites back, with a shot that penetrates Yaeyama's X Turret and kills the entirety of the gunnery crew.





Another shot penetrates Yaeyama's A Turret. This time, one of the guns gets bodily lifted off its mounting and catapulted over the ship's side. Yet it's too little, too late for the brave Russians. The Japanese ships have crossed their T and open up, with all of their remaining guns. The Russian cruiser has less than 2 inches of belt armor, which is not even sufficient for splinter protection; the Japanese shells rake through its entire length befor detonating near the bow. The Merkuryia strikes her colours immediately and goes down shortly after, taking a hundred and twelve sailors with her, out of a crew of three hundred and fifty.



The Japanese cruisers return home victorious - but also as grim harbingers of war.



As in previous wars, the Silent Service immediately deployed into enemy waters. The Japanese subs were out for blood; and while the Russian shipping would not suffer particularly in the early stages of the war, this is because the Japanese commanders were looking for bigger targets. First, their targets were the Minesweepers operating in north-eastern Asia. With a series of daring operations, gunnery duels, and offensive mining, the Japanese sunk three of the Russian coastal defense ships, punching a hole through Russian ASW defenses.



The Russians bit back. A Russian sub torpedoed the Takao, while she was patrolling in the Indian Ocean; she suffered considerable damage, but her torpedo protection was more than sufficient to prevent her from sinking. She made it back to Madagascar under her own power and was out of the drydocks in two months.

The Russian attempts to strike at Japanese shipping were...well, you could respect their suicidal courage, but not their skill. The Russians sank nine heavy freighters, including an oil tanker off Sumatra; but in almost half of these attacks the submarines were tracked down and blown out of the water by the 'Maru boys'.



In July, the Japanese fleet blockaded Russian bases in Sakhalin and Kamtchatka. The Ochakov cowered in its moorings, behind the coastal batteries and did not dare emerge.
 




Unfortunately for her, that did not stop the determined Silent Servicemen. With the Russian coastal patrols weakened, Captain Sakuma, of the minelayer I-128, snuck into the Russian base in Sakhalin, torpedoed the Ochakov and, while escaping, to add insult to injury,  mined the harbor's entrance.





The attack sub I-117 covered his escape, surfacing and engaging a pursuing Russian patrol vessel in a gun duel.





The remainder of the Japanese subs licked their chops and went wild on the Russian shipping. Statistics show the relative difference in crew skill and ASW capabilities between the two nations. Both submarine corps scored near-equivalent kills; but where the Russians lost more than half of their attacking subs, the skill of the Japanese submariners and the crippled Russian coastal patrol fleet meant that the Japanese only lost one boat.

With their Far East fleet nearly obliterated, the Russians took the opportunity of Takao's absence to shuttle some of their ships from the European front to the Far East. This time around, they deployed their ships in smaller squadrons and not an 'I-am-here-please-come-sink-me' massive fleet, with much attention given to supplying the transferring ships. On the 30th of July, the Takao-class Asama spotted and engaged two Russian cruisers off Madagascar. The Japanese ship played a cautious game, focusing on survival and dealing damage to the enemies, rather than risking everything to sink them. The lack of any RUssian bases on the vicinity meant that any damage suffered by the enemy would severely hamer them until they could reach north-east Asia; and they would have to cross the Japanese blockade to do so.



The duel started (and continued) at long range, with Asama employing her crew's superior training and her fire control superiority to score early hits.



One of the Russian cruisers lost a turret early on in the engagement, which severely reduced the Russians' weight of broadside and improved the Asama's chances.



But the Asama also received fire and had two of her turrets jammed in their mounts.



The engagement lasted an hour and a half, with Asama using nightfall to escape.





She had suffered only minor damage, while punching clear above her weight - a clear Japanese victory. She would spend less than a week in drydock; the Russian cruisers, on the other hand, could not reach a friendly drydock for another two months.



And one of them would never get the chance to. Alerted by the Asama, the I-131 and I-132 lay in wait. The already-stricken Ryurik, the pride of Russia's heavy cruiser fleet, and the newest addition to her fleet, was hit by three torpedoes ten hours after her engagement with the Asama and was lost, with sixty-eight of her crew.

The Ochakov and Ryurik made it over 60k tons of Russian capital warships sunk, within two months of the beginning of the war.

Holy crap, submariners.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:34:07 am by Enioch »
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)