Author Topic: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)  (Read 4593 times)

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Offline CountBuggula

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Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Due to requests in the other Rogue One thread, and in an effort to keep them separate for those who want to continue reading that thread and haven't seen the movie yet, I'm opening up discussion here for how it directly affects Fate of the Galaxy in general.  Note that this is NOT a place to discuss the movie itself, the plot, how much you did or didn't like it, what they did right or wrong, etc.  Please do that in the General Discussion thread.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 12:43:27 am by CountBuggula »

 

Offline Dain

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
So I had a bunch of thoughts as there is so much cool starfighter action in there but immediate thing that springs to mind

Y-wings coming full circle as bombers? What was the first EU that decided they were bombers? Was it the west end RPG? Because in the original movies we have no indication of them being the slow, tough bombers that they became in the EU, they zoomed about just as fast as other ships and did no bombing. It's funny how now we have a film with them doing a significant amount of bombing.

(I have to confess, giving Y-wings a "hero" moment was something I vaguely hoped for in R1, so I was very pleased to see gold squadron have a few things to do)


Also canonising stuff like ion torpedoes.. that whole thing could have come right out of one of the X-wing games. So Ion torpedoes as a weapon in FOTG?

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
So I had a bunch of thoughts as there is so much cool starfighter action in there but immediate thing that springs to mind

Y-wings coming full circle as bombers? What was the first EU that decided they were bombers? Was it the west end RPG? Because in the original movies we have no indication of them being the slow, tough bombers that they became in the EU, they zoomed about just as fast as other ships and did no bombing. It's funny how now we have a film with them doing a significant amount of bombing.

Well, the Y-wings in ANH are heavy, sluggish, all get shot down, and don't do any dogfighting or really any manouvers at all. They always seemed clearly like bombers to me because of that. In RotJ they're more like just another fighter, although they still don't do anything fancy.

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
So I had a bunch of thoughts as there is so much cool starfighter action in there but immediate thing that springs to mind

Y-wings coming full circle as bombers? What was the first EU that decided they were bombers? Was it the west end RPG? Because in the original movies we have no indication of them being the slow, tough bombers that they became in the EU, they zoomed about just as fast as other ships and did no bombing. It's funny how now we have a film with them doing a significant amount of bombing.

(I have to confess, giving Y-wings a "hero" moment was something I vaguely hoped for in R1, so I was very pleased to see gold squadron have a few things to do)


Also canonising stuff like ion torpedoes.. that whole thing could have come right out of one of the X-wing games. So Ion torpedoes as a weapon in FOTG?

I think I'm pretty happy with where we have Y-Wings currently in terms of performance.  They're much faster and more maneuverable than in the X-Wing games (well, everything is) but have a decent payload capability and work well as fighter/bombers or attack craft.  I think we'll definitely have to find a way to implement Ion Torpedoes as shown in the movie.  We have mag pulse missiles currently but they're only effective against starfighters and rather limited at that.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Well, the Y-wings in ANH are heavy, sluggish, all get shot down,

Sorry, nitpick, one survives :)

https://youtu.be/qniy8aDSFLA?t=29

But otherwise I agree, I don't recall them firing their lasers at all.

We might now have a case for a minor tweak to allow Y-wings to carry freefall bombs, just not sure if we need to implement the TIE bomber alt-view for that mode or not, maybe in general, but not for the Rebel campaign since there's no missions with that sort of bombing in them?

I guess Ion torpedoes could be implemented with the electronics flag, and possibly tweak some other settings so the effect lasts longer than the default 7 secs.

I also noted the use of TIE shuttles for boarding, I guess the movie makers didn't want to canonise the DX-9? Not sure we'd want to change much here apart from the TIE shuttle fluff.

It'd be interesting to have the U-wing as the Rebel equivalent of the DX9 / TIE shuttle, but I don't recall seeing it used for space to space troop transport, only space to ground. The hatches seem designed around ground access as well, I don't suppose anyone has seen pics which show any sort of forcible entry docking collar or similar?
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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
So I had a bunch of thoughts as there is so much cool starfighter action in there but immediate thing that springs to mind

Y-wings coming full circle as bombers? What was the first EU that decided they were bombers? Was it the west end RPG? Because in the original movies we have no indication of them being the slow, tough bombers that they became in the EU, they zoomed about just as fast as other ships and did no bombing. It's funny how now we have a film with them doing a significant amount of bombing.

(I have to confess, giving Y-wings a "hero" moment was something I vaguely hoped for in R1, so I was very pleased to see gold squadron have a few things to do)


Also canonising stuff like ion torpedoes.. that whole thing could have come right out of one of the X-wing games. So Ion torpedoes as a weapon in FOTG?

Well, LFL created the Y-wing with the intention of it filling the fighter-bomber/attacker combat role for ANH. Canonically, the Y-wing was never really "slow and sluggish" per se. When compared to the X-wing, A-wing or TIE Fighter/Interceptor, yes. But not outright. LFL's official ship specs had always shown the difference in speed and maneuverability between the Y-wing and X-wing to be relatively small, and that despite it's age, the Y-wing was still a capable dogfighter in most circumstances. Their portrayal in the OT was consistent with this.

I believe the biggest cause of the Y-wing taking on the slow, sluggish bomber stigma happened with Totally Games' X-Wing/TIE Fighter sims when Larry Holland and his team used a separate set of ship specs instead of LFL's official ones. The speed and maneuverability rating the Y-wing had in those games was proportionately much worse compared to the other ships. A lot of the other ships' specs were altered too, though (the biggest change probably being the B-wing's).

I also believe the popularity of the X-Wing/TIE Fighter sims over shadowed LFL's official ship stats, and the problem perpetuated when subsequent developers implemented the same ships in their games and would model their in-universe performance off the X-Wing/TIE Fighter sims. Then of course, there were the other forms of media like the comics and novels that exacerbated the issue.

Essentially, we had two separate set of ship specs and LFL/LucasArts never did anything to address the matter. I believe they considered it a non-issue, but the situation created a lot of confusion among fans.

Of course, now with Disney at the helm, who knows what will happen. lol
Chance favors the prepared mind.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Are you referring to this drawing, showing X-wing, Y-wing & TIE all with speed of "100 MGLT"?

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Are you referring to this drawing, showing X-wing, Y-wing & TIE all with speed of "100 MGLT"?



No. IIRC, that was before LFL finalized the ship specs (Speed: A-wing=120 MGLT; B-wing=60 MGLT; X-wing=80 MGLT; Y-wing=70 MGLT; TIE Fighter=100 MGLT; etc.).
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Oh, I haven't heard of that set of stats before, do you have a source/reference?
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
The concept of first in canon is a little screwy these days, but I know the Y Wing served as a bomber in the Clone Wars cartoon at at least a couple of points.

I think, along with the obvious U Wing, the cargo shuttle would be a solid R1 addition to FotG. Of the other new ships, neither Krennic's shuttle, the hammerhead, nor the new Mon Cal class really add anything the current shipset can't replicate with the Lambda, CR-90 or another Mon Cal ship, from a role-in-mission perspective. The cargo shuttle adds something new.
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Offline Dain

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
The concept of first in canon is a little screwy these days, but I know the Y Wing served as a bomber in the Clone Wars cartoon at at least a couple of points.


Which once again would be influenced by the games I guess! It's an interesting one.

I wonder how many people who work on the films/cartoons have experience with the games. There were a few things in R1 that felt like it was the sort of scenario we've been playing/reading about for ages bought to life. Little things like the stormtrooper chatter, locations and "That star destroyer has been disabled". Myself and a few friends got our geek on by playing X-wing the board game before we headed out, and at one point used ion missiles to cause one ship to drift slowly into another, which caused a few chuckles when a similar thing happened in the film.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
So I had a bunch of thoughts as there is so much cool starfighter action in there but immediate thing that springs to mind

Y-wings coming full circle as bombers? What was the first EU that decided they were bombers? Was it the west end RPG? Because in the original movies we have no indication of them being the slow, tough bombers that they became in the EU, they zoomed about just as fast as other ships and did no bombing. It's funny how now we have a film with them doing a significant amount of bombing.

(I have to confess, giving Y-wings a "hero" moment was something I vaguely hoped for in R1, so I was very pleased to see gold squadron have a few things to do)


Also canonising stuff like ion torpedoes.. that whole thing could have come right out of one of the X-wing games. So Ion torpedoes as a weapon in FOTG?

Strike craft.  Fast enough, but vulnerable when lining up an attack run (A-10s are vulnerable when performing a strafe run with their gun, similarly).



EDIT: Also, it could be the difference between a Y-Wing carrying a full load of ordinance in a bomber-type mission configuration, vs a multi-role configuration (less or less heavy bombs to allow for some dogfighting / evasion).

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
I think, along with the obvious U Wing, the cargo shuttle would be a solid R1 addition to FotG. Of the other new ships, neither Krennic's shuttle, the hammerhead, nor the new Mon Cal class really add anything the current shipset can't replicate with the Lambda, CR-90 or another Mon Cal ship, from a role-in-mission perspective. The cargo shuttle adds something new.

I was actually recently playing with the idea of recreating the Totally Games X-Wing campaigns in FotG and realized we don't have a really good generic rebel boarding craft, similar to the Stormtrooper Transport (which is what was used 99% of the time in those games).  The U-Wing might fill that nicely.

The Mon Cal flagship actually seems like it fills a gap between smaller ships like the Nebulon-B (which we still don't have) and the Liberty-Class MC-80 (which we also still don't have).  The Empire has a good variety of ships in that size range, while the Rebels currently have nothing between the Dreadnought and Home One, which dwarfs even an ISD.  From a mission making perspective, there's certainly lots that could be done there.

 
Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Oh, I haven't heard of that set of stats before, do you have a source/reference?
Hmm... off the top of my head, a couple good older sources released/re-released for ship specs were the Star Wars: Technical Journals (individual volumes and a later compilation book) and the Star Wars: Behind the Magic interactive CD-ROM. Both were released in the '90s.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 11:16:41 am by Vector Leader »
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Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Ok, here's my official wish list of ships I'd love to see made for FotG:

Shield Gate


MC75 Cruiser


UT-60D U-Wing


Zeta-class Shuttle

 

Offline Rolf

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Have you considered using the models from Star Wars Battlefront as references? Build over them in some 3D program?

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Have you considered using the models from Star Wars Battlefront as references? Build over them in some 3D program?

I've got the Rogue One Ultimate Visual Guide on my Amazon wish list.  Figure that's a pretty good place to start, considering I'm not personally a modeler.  Also, I don't know how much the tradition has continued with EA, but LucasArts games were notoriously bad for having 3d models that didn't come anywhere close to matching the source material.  We tend to try and stick to original model photos and movie stills where possible for our references.

 

Offline Rolf

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Have you considered using the models from Star Wars Battlefront as references? Build over them in some 3D program?

I've got the Rogue One Ultimate Visual Guide on my Amazon wish list.  Figure that's a pretty good place to start, considering I'm not personally a modeler.  Also, I don't know how much the tradition has continued with EA, but LucasArts games were notoriously bad for having 3d models that didn't come anywhere close to matching the source material.  We tend to try and stick to original model photos and movie stills where possible for our references.

Battlefront is slavishly accurate to the source material of the movies. One complaint many people had in fact was the games lack of variety, which stemmed from the dev's desire to mimic the look and feel of the movies to the point of excluding anything that wasn't in the movies, initially.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Anyone notice that with its wings down, the Zeta-class shuttle looks kinda like a sea turtle?
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Offline Dain

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Re: Rogue One and FotG (spoilers!)
Related, couple of interesting videos about the ILM modeling process:


And then this one has been floating around a while, covers some of the same points:

« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 11:41:24 am by Dain »