Author Topic: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)  (Read 58200 times)

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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
I mean, yeah there isn't any real possibility of that working, at least from the perspective of a ships vs. ships shootout, or really any attempt to flee either.

I think AoA pretty clearly illustrated exactly how well trying to flee with anemoi' in tow would work.  Shivans absolutely everywhere because they are in fact practically innumerable, perhaps you last like 200-300 years hiding in some dense nebula as they wear you down.

e:  The so-called Ken bargain, I.E. assumedly getting into the Shivan's heads and figuring out some aspect of their goals well enough to find a way to co-exist (at least temporarily), is seemingly the only way to keep a universe spanning omnicidal monstrosity at bay.  Playing the super-cooperator is in fact probably the only way to survive for any noticeable length of time.

e2: Perhaps indeed thats what the Shivans are looking for?  Something so cooperative it can work even with the interface the shivans present to the universe.  They certainly seemed to be trying to push the humans and vasudans towards cooperation in freespace 1 at least.  Freespace 2 doesn't really fit that narrative, but that also seems (in the BP lore) to have amounted to the GTVA getting crushed underfoot like some unnoticed insect while the shivans go to deal with some other problem.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 03:49:22 pm by QuakeIV »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Any conventional resistance to the Shivans seems likely to fail in the long term. But there are a lot of complications to that statement. Three of the first questions one might ask would be: are there unconventional modes of resistance - what did the Vishnans want from us, what role did they expect us to inherit? Are there levels of survival which humanity is prepared to accept in order to endure? And is it necessary to secure indefinite survival to ‘win?’

We all believe it’s possible to live meaningful, full lives despite the inevitability of death. Is the inevitability of destruction by Shivans something we must escape in order for human existence to be meaningful or worth living?

 
Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
As FS2 dashes the hope of the FS1 Alpha 1
Did it, though? Nobody in Sol saw any Shivans during FS2, so "not in my lifetime" still held true as of the end of FS2 (and assuming Alpha 1 was still alive, of course).

Unless he's Kovacs, of course  :eek2: And some of the conversations early in War In Heaven suggest that sections of the UEF are affected by the pain inflicted on the GTVA during the second incursion, and almost pity them. All I'm saying is the next half-century looked more like a nightmare than the "liberation" that damned Nagari sensitive Alpha 1 promised me!

Speaking of nightmares-what are the rough terms of Ken's arrangement with the Shivans, besides it being very bad for the Vasudans? All of them are eradicated and all the humans get to climb aboard for the glorious minutes that are 1 crew generation in a Sathanas' "nightmare turbine"?  If the NEM.NOW logs are any indication, seems like the Zods get the better end of this stick, in all respects except the perpetuation of some ever-diminishing shard of human influence in Shivan ecosystems. Yet it seems like Bosch and his command crew have undergone a different kind of treatment during their formation into Ken that's a little less annihilative (if only just) as they maintain language, cognition, knowledge of their previous senses of self, etc. So maybe Ken has some other endgame in mind, like having some/all humans join his consciousness, though this seems to veer dubiously close to Great Psyche territory for Shivan "tastes."

Which leads perhaps to a deeper question-is Ken even aware of the "real" terms of the agreement with the Shivans? Or is he being deceived and/or blinded, through hubris or outside influence, to their long-term implications?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:35:37 pm by captain austin »

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
This is what I love about both this game and this group - the deep philosophical debates it generates. Very few games or fandoms can do this.

I once tried to deep dive into the inner philosophy of Pong, but I didn't get any deeper than 'Boing boing boing'  :lol: 
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Offline An4ximandros

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
I remember something about destructive firewall strategies being mentioned somewhere.

What exactly does that entail? I get the idea of walling off Nagari network areas but is that actually what lead to the problem we face now? (the great darkness?)

Sorry I am not more specific, been a while since I played.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
That was reference to destruction of the node network by warring species trying to secure their borders. It’s a secondary function for the Shivans.

 

Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Here's one for ya.

What would be the big picture consequences if the entire node network was wiped? I mean Everywhere, Universe-wide, Complete and total Elimination of subspace.

The good? The Bad? what happens?



Also, semi-related question: AT what point will the whole "Shivans, Vishnans, Great Darkness," situation start to face some outside context issues from the Universe's/Multiverse's age? I asked about heat death before, but will they all act once a big rip, big crunch, vacuum decay, or some kind of natural-yet-unavoidable subspace cataclysm or total dimensional collapse event becomes a greater threat? Could they try to do something about that? or would it all be pointless anyway? How would they react?
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Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Why does every thread I post in get abandoned?

So how does the Multiverse work in BP anyway? Do they Age at the same rate? Or independently?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:48:15 pm by DefCynodont119 »
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Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Why does every thread I post in get abandoned?

So how does the Multiverse work in BP anyway? Do they Age at the same rate? Or independently?

They age differently. The one the 14th went adventuring in was much older and was drawing a state pension ;-)
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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
So, there's an interesting thing I thought of.

The way for Fedayeen to communicate between each other with Nagari is pretty much by being cable connected to CASSANDRA. Also, there's Noemi's breach of the external (to humanity at least) Nagari network, realised with the use of a special transmitter device obtained through HoL agents and the Idun's Dictionary.
On the other hand, Shivans and Vishnans (and Ken) are known to be able to interact with basically anyone's brains, reading and inducing specific states. They can communicate with humans with nearly no limitations in place, whenever they please.

However, in Sunglare, both Beis seem to communicate with each other through Nagari, but... how? Since the Vishnans decided they will not speak with them anymore, they logically wouldn't also relay the transmissions between these two, since they broke contact. Beis also do not have the access to the transmitter technology from HoL (that we know of), so what kind of options does it leave for us? Did they get transmitters from a different source, or maybe HoL was already contacting with the UEF before they've gave the design to Laporte? Or perhaps human brains, expecially the ones exposed to Nagari influence, have got a limited capability of communication? There's also the case of Nabirasul, who you can meet in the Dreamscape.
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Offline Rhymes

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Who says the Fedayeen are the only ones with Dreamscape tech?
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Offline The E

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Who says that the conversation between the Beis was done via Nagari?
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Yeah I always assumed it was by encrypted facetime.
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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Who says that the conversation between the Beis was done via Nagari?
It just occured to me that the older Bei has got his voice distorted in a similar fashion to Ken (also all the people you got to hear in the mission "Ken").
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I was supposed to make a short presentation about basics of optical fibers and here I am, listening to Eurobeat while reading about quantum cryptography.

 

Offline Colt

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
So this odd, tiny little thought's been unreasonably nagging in the back of my mind for the last couple of days, and so I must ask.

Are BP Vasudans related to the Ancients, and if so how?

(I can't recall if this question was already asked, so apologies in advance if it was.)

 
Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
On my third WiH playthrough, love it to death.

My question is, since in Post Meridian Simms (I think) calls Steele a "gentleman psychopath"...does he wear Joker makeup? Does he live in a society?

 
Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
He lives in a machinery.

 
Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
Any conventional resistance to the Shivans seems likely to fail in the long term. But there are a lot of complications to that statement. Three of the first questions one might ask would be: are there unconventional modes of resistance - what did the Vishnans want from us, what role did they expect us to inherit? Are there levels of survival which humanity is prepared to accept in order to endure? And is it necessary to secure indefinite survival to ‘win?’

We all believe it’s possible to live meaningful, full lives despite the inevitability of death. Is the inevitability of destruction by Shivans something we must escape in order for human existence to be meaningful or worth living?

Resistance is never futile. To use the Dark Souls analogy, while entropy or "the end" of existence may not be avoidable, it's no excuse to just keel over and die. Apathy is death, and despair of any hope of any sort of victory over the Shivans is a waste of brain power. One more day is worth it. If the Shivans want to play God with creation, reshape it in their image for some nebulous, otherwordly ends, yes, go down guns blazing with ol' Steele at the helm. Let it end in fire and noise and not submission.

But what if the Shivans are, "right?" about the Great Destroyer? Etc.

Irrelevant. You do not stop fighting one enemy just because another is on the horizon. I've hated that trope in fiction, because it's almost always flawed reasoning on the part of the aggressors.

Life fights. That's its nature, as antithesis to the Shivans long term goals of "stability" at all costs. The Shivans cannot be trusted as a benevolent force when no other faction considers them as such. We only have their inscrutable "word" they're doing this all for the greater good of universal balance.

BP goes to some good places headspace wise, and I'm sure it has many deconstructions ahead. But, "the Shivans are too powerful, they've conquered whole other realities and timelines, it's really pointless in the end." Is not something I'm willing to accept. Humanity Stands.

And I am also reminded of the following quote about the Vietnam war.

‘You know, you never beat us on the battlefield,’ I told my North Vietnamese counterpart during negotiations in Hanoi a week before the fall of Saigon. He pondered that remark a moment and then replied, ‘That may be so, but it is also irrelevant.’

Victory means many things, including living one more day.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 06:41:47 pm by manwiththemachinegun »

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
I don't really understand how the sentiments you're expressing conflict with the post you're responding to.

 
Re: The Blue Planet Oracle (full BP2/3 spoilers within!)
My question is, since in Post Meridian Simms (I think) calls Steele a "gentleman psychopath"...does he wear Joker makeup? Does he live in a society?
Nah, but let me quote something you can read in Act 3 of WiH:
Quote from: Falconer
Crazy is another word for 'uncomfortably effective'.
Mito [PL] - Today at 8:52 PM
I was supposed to make a short presentation about basics of optical fibers and here I am, listening to Eurobeat while reading about quantum cryptography.