Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 25653 times)

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Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Most Star Wars movies came out before internet was a mass thing and before internet assholes learned to use bots or move en masse to **** on something they didn't like.

No they didn't! There were internet review sites already around the middle of 90s. I had a rather nice broad band at that time as a university student around 2002. Steam was also launched two years later with Half Life 2. There's plenty of reviews already from 1999 and 2002 in IMDB. How do you distinguish between internet assholes moving en masse to **** something they didn't like and people who are genuinely disappointed and angry? There's really no evidence of this in the RT or MC ratings, there's no suspiciously large differences in the number of reviews between Force Awakens and Last Jedi. There's actually 10 % LESS reviews in the RT for Last Jedi than Force Awakens.
Dude, it was still a minority of people using internet extensively, internet became really widespread only with smartphones and social media. Also we didn't have Gamergate inaugurating the geekdom assholes hysteria movements yet.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I like how Mika keeps insinuating that any of us should give a **** about anonymous user-submitted reviews.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
It's still better than either Attack of the Clones or Sith, and given that some (crazy) people would rate Sith as better than Jedi that probably says something.  If a movie that fans hate does better than a movie that supercedes one of the original trilogy, then- that's a bad thing?

Also comparing ratings to the prequels or the original trilogy is pointless.  Passion doesn't last 19 years, it cools with time- so anyone who hated the prequels probably doesn't care to rate it or hates it less with time- especially with the catharsis of the RLM reviews that ripped all three movies a new one.  Whereas passion would play a huge part in the TLJ reviews, with many of them probably written within a day of the viewing.

It's even with Revenge of the Sith when adjusted to inflation. The table can certainly be off about 10 %, and that's within the difference margin.

Yeah and if you count international sales Last Jedi would be ahead of both Jedi & Empire who made less internationally than they did domestic.  There has been speculation about how much money studios actually see from international sales but given how hard hollywood is catering to China or putting chinese content into damn-near every movie, they obviously make something.

There's also a counter to your point, though. The nostalgia feeling may uplift the results slightly, but not significantly for it to matter for the discussion. Why? Because similarly how the current movie business model is pretty much that >85 % of total gross is earned on first 40-50 days, it is also very likely so that the reviews are accumulated similarly for the first two to three months. For Attack of the Clones for example, there's about 8 pages of reviews for 2018 on RT, indicating a rate of 160 reviews per half a year. Total number of review pages is 1488, and 8 pages makes for 5.7 per milles of reviews. Assuming similar review speed for linear distribution, it would require about 93 years to get 1488 pages of reviews. So no, it's not linear, and quite likely heavily weighed for the beginning for the reasons I gave. So if there's a positive trend over time, I'd think the effect of it is less than 10 % of the total rating. The big flurry of initial reviews is actually included for the data for Rotten Tomatoes (est. 1999) and for Metacritic (est. 2001).

The reviews honestly don't matter, all that matters is the money.  The fact that Zach Snyder still has a job after poor reviews of every DC movie he's made is proof of that (and yes I know those are critical reviews not audience reviews).  And those movies are less profitable than Last Jedi so-  I'm sure Warner Brothers would love a DC movie that did as poorly as Last Jedi.

As for Solo, according to Box Office Mojo it's made money domestically- did it perform below expectations because of Last Jedi? Or because of the summer release? Or because of the subject matter? Who knows. There are a lot of variables but as long as it's made its money back I don't see it having that big of an impact.  And Episode IX isn't coming out for a year and a half, the fact it's back to Abrams and the time is so long I'm sure a lot of those "dead to me" star wars fans will go back and spend more money.  I mean they did see Episode VII even after the prequels "raped their childhood", so are they really going to stay away from Episode IX? Stay away from Billy Dee? I seriously doubt it.  Given history I don't think EpIX will outperform TFA but it will do better than Last Jedi.

On an unrelated topic I do see that Abrams crony-ism is in full swing again, first Greg Grunberg and now fricken Keri Russel is going to be in Star Wars?  Come on- man.  I know she's been acting and **** but f-off man, why doesn't he get Scott Speedman and Tangi Miller in there while he's at it.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I'm going to make a bot to shower TLJ with anonymous positive user reviews and he'll have to change his opinion because that'll definitely change facts.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:54:44 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Rhymes

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The point where Mika said anonymous online reviews on RT or Metacritic are more trustworthy than professional reviews is the point where you all should have given up. Anybody who thinks that is so utterly divorced from reality that arguing with him just tars you by association.
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Or you know, people could have just listen to batts when he suggested not engaging with him.

On an unrelated topic I do see that Abrams crony-ism is in full swing again, first Greg Grunberg and now fricken Keri Russel is going to be in Star Wars?  Come on- man.  I know she's been acting and **** but f-off man, why doesn't he get Scott Speedman and Tangi Miller in there while he's at it.
Wow, I don't like the guy, but I don't care enough about him to mind who he puts in his work.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Or you know, people could have just listen to batts when he suggested not engaging with him.

But Mika's third-rate spin is comedy gold.  Keeping him wound up until Episode IX comes out would be a service to the forum.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Or you know, people could have just listen to batts when he suggested not engaging with him.

On an unrelated topic I do see that Abrams crony-ism is in full swing again, first Greg Grunberg and now fricken Keri Russel is going to be in Star Wars?  Come on- man.  I know she's been acting and **** but f-off man, why doesn't he get Scott Speedman and Tangi Miller in there while he's at it.
Wow, I don't like the guy, but I don't care enough about him to mind who he puts in his work.

I care when an actor is put into a shot who looks so out of place that it takes me out of the movie and it's clear that the only reason he's there is because he's friends with the director not because he's the best actor for the role.

EDIT - Greg Grunberg was in Star Trek Beyond as well (Abrams as exec-producer), with a role as a star fleet commander of the space station.  Another role for which he was totally unsuited on account of him being a fat ass. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 08:46:51 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Incidentally, I was looking for some pages of Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones reviews with Last Jedi reviews. They all got panned, but there's one thing that's missing from the prequel reviews: reviewers are not saying in significant numbers that Star Wars is dead. Now they do. That's the striking difference.

My problem with all these people who cry that Star Wars being dead is not that they do so, is that they keep doing so, forever, and won't stop until everyone agrees with their whining. If Star Wars was really dead, they would have sung something at the funeral and moved on. Hey, like I did to Mass Effect. Or when I watched Die Hard 4. Heck, Dragon Ball is 100% **** nowadays. Sometimes, things just stop being good and I move on.

Not these guys though. They'll hammer their points home til the end of time, and if there are people who disagree, they must be PWNED and DEBUNKED and DESTROYED, the artists should be EXPOSED for the LIES and DESTRUCTION they have made to their beloved precious thing, and (of course) DUG UP all the IDEOLOGICAL LEFTIST UNDERPINNINGS that wrecked star wars like commies do of everything I guess. And this discussion will go to the END OF TIMES, because apparently being mad at this stuff is the neverending story of a huge chunk of some people's lives.

If Star Wars ever dies, it will be at the hands of this hatedom, not anything else, for Hollywood will always try to milk it in multiple, different ways. Just like Star Trek (oh wait, there's another hatedom in there too).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars will never die. These idiots will keep going to watch it even if they hate them all. You could make a Holiday Special reboot and it would still make millions from these morons.
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Offline Nightmare

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars will never die. These idiots will keep going to watch it even if they hate them all. You could make a Holiday Special reboot and it would still make millions from these morons.

Well it's Disney. They must make Jedi High School! People will love it! ;)

 

Offline Cyborg17

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
High School -> Awkward romance
AotC -> Awkward romance

Jedi High School = Attack of the Clones?

 

Offline Nightmare

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
No, it'll be a complete new part of the franchise, showing the everyday life at the Coruscant Jedi Academy. A series that shows how the students play basketball using the force etc, and a movie where the poor outsider Klim Bim uncovers the plot of the beloved leader of the student council (who secretly became a dark Jedi) to ruin the finals party. It's a great opportunity to show parts of the SW universe that haven't been explored so far. :D

 

Offline Cyborg17

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
"Padawans!  Get your head in the force!"

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars will never die. These idiots will keep going to watch it even if they hate them all. You could make a Holiday Special reboot and it would still make millions from these morons.

Well it's Disney. They must make Jedi High School! People will love it! ;)

They did that already, there were YA novels about teenage Jacen and Jaina Solo at the Jedi Academy.

It's funny how so many of the apocalyptic predictions about the Disney management usually already happened under George Lucas, often multiple times.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 04:38:50 pm by Det. Bullock »
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
They did that already, there were YA novels about teenage Jacen and Jaina Solo at the Jedi Academy.
Heh, those were the first, and just about the only, EU novels I ever read.  How were they?  Well...Kevin J. Anderson.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
They did that already, there were YA novels about teenage Jacen and Jaina Solo at the Jedi Academy.
Heh, those were the first, and just about the only, EU novels I ever read.  How were they?  Well...Kevin J. Anderson.

If anything, perhaps his best Star Wars work.

That compliment is exactly as backhanded as it sounds.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Dude, it was still a minority of people using internet extensively, internet became really widespread only with smartphones and social media. Also we didn't have Gamergate inaugurating the geekdom assholes hysteria movements yet.

I really don't think availability of smartphones and social media matters much for the movie reviews. It's bloody difficult to write any reviews from mobile devices, as text editing is very cumbersome with them. Note that I happen to live in a country that was the poster child of connectivity and internet connections, so there's that.

Yeah and if you count international sales Last Jedi would be ahead of both Jedi & Empire who made less internationally than they did domestic.  There has been speculation about how much money studios actually see from international sales but given how hard hollywood is catering to China or putting chinese content into damn-near every movie, they obviously make something.

The reviews honestly don't matter, all that matters is the money.  The fact that Zach Snyder still has a job after poor reviews of every DC movie he's made is proof of that (and yes I know those are critical reviews not audience reviews).  And those movies are less profitable than Last Jedi so-  I'm sure Warner Brothers would love a DC movie that did as poorly as Last Jedi.

As for Solo, according to Box Office Mojo it's made money domestically- did it perform below expectations because of Last Jedi? Or because of the summer release? Or because of the subject matter? Who knows. There are a lot of variables but as long as it's made its money back I don't see it having that big of an impact.  And Episode IX isn't coming out for a year and a half, the fact it's back to Abrams and the time is so long I'm sure a lot of those "dead to me" star wars fans will go back and spend more money.  I mean they did see Episode VII even after the prequels "raped their childhood", so are they really going to stay away from Episode IX? Stay away from Billy Dee? I seriously doubt it.  Given history I don't think EpIX will outperform TFA but it will do better than Last Jedi.

The numbers in the table are world wide gross, taken from IMDB. The reason Hollywood tries very hard to get to China is that the Chinese market seems very lucrative, one billion people, and a rising middle class with income to spare. They are essentially trying to buy market share there, as missing out in the Chinese markets could become very problematic in the long run. I'm personally torn between the two approaches there. I haven't talked with a lot of Chinese how they see this and the thought of buying the associated merchandise, so maybe I'll do that the next time I'm there.

How does Solo "make money domestically"?  What does that mean? The production cost is split between domestic and international markets? According to IMDB, it's made 380 mils gross world wide by 12th of July. The production cost is estimated at 300 mils. That's 80 millions surplus, with the exception that the world wide gross is split about 50/50 between the studio and theaters. That means studio got about 190 millions, pushing the movie well to the negative of around -110 mils. And that's without accounting the marketing costs.

It's always possible to market Last Jedi (or more generally, any product) so that people buy it once. But if they think it's bad, it's difficult to get the same people interested in anything after it. So essentially, it's about short term vs long term strategical choice. It's pretty evident Disney intended this to be for the long run, as they wouldn't have invested in to a Star Wars theme park otherwise. What I've done is that I've given links to show that this time there might be a big difference boiling in the background, and the fans can actually mean it. Merchandise sales collapse was reported immediately after The Last Jedi in January. Solo crashed as well, and it's a first Star Wars movie to do so.

The point where Mika said anonymous online reviews on RT or Metacritic are more trustworthy than professional reviews is the point where you all should have given up. Anybody who thinks that is so utterly divorced from reality that arguing with him just tars you by association.

Well, Metacritic says 58 % rating for Return of the Jedi from 24 professional reviews  :lol:  :lol: Not only that, but the point of using audience ratings instead of professional ratings lies in the actual predictor of buying decisions, including merchandise. Professionals are simply too small group to make any predictors of buying behaviors - and not only that, their ratings can differ significantly from the audience ratings. Remind me again why anonymous online reviews exist for Amazon, hotels, and other areas of industries? Why are these ratings actually used by the companies, and what makes the difference between them and the movie industry? If you tend to agree with a professional reviewer, by all means, follow his advice on movies, he might very well be a predictor for you. I'm more interested in the average behavior of the people.

Rotten Tomatoes has gone out to public and stated there's no mistake in their ratings. There's no unusual activity with respect to the data, and over the years, they certainly have seen their share of bots.

But Mika's third-rate spin is comedy gold.  Keeping him wound up until Episode IX comes out would be a service to the forum.

No chance of me replying once my vacation is over. That will happen within a few days.

My problem with all these people who cry that Star Wars being dead is not that they do so, is that they keep doing so, forever, and won't stop until everyone agrees with their whining. If Star Wars was really dead, they would have sung something at the funeral and moved on. Hey, like I did to Mass Effect. Or when I watched Die Hard 4. Heck, Dragon Ball is 100% **** nowadays. Sometimes, things just stop being good and I move on.

Not these guys though. They'll hammer their points home til the end of time, and if there are people who disagree, they must be PWNED and DEBUNKED and DESTROYED, the artists should be EXPOSED for the LIES and DESTRUCTION they have made to their beloved precious thing, and (of course) DUG UP all the IDEOLOGICAL LEFTIST UNDERPINNINGS that wrecked star wars like commies do of everything I guess. And this discussion will go to the END OF TIMES, because apparently being mad at this stuff is the neverending story of a huge chunk of some people's lives.

If Star Wars ever dies, it will be at the hands of this hatedom, not anything else, for Hollywood will always try to milk it in multiple, different ways. Just like Star Trek (oh wait, there's another hatedom in there too).

Oh, just like they moved on from Solo? Also, you forgot "cultural marxists", let us not forget the cultural marxists. I reckon that should also be part of the above.  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
*sees mika post*

*reads mika post*

*puts mika on ignore*

thread much improved.
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Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Dude, it was still a minority of people using internet extensively, internet became really widespread only with smartphones and social media. Also we didn't have Gamergate inaugurating the geekdom assholes hysteria movements yet.

I really don't think availability of smartphones and social media matters much for the movie reviews. It's bloody difficult to write any reviews from mobile devices, as text editing is very cumbersome with them. Note that I happen to live in a country that was the poster child of connectivity and internet connections, so there's that.

Mika, 90% of those user reviews on aggregators are just a score plus a badly spelled rant (or even just a "Dis movie suX coz SJW!!!"), you can do that on a smartphone or tablet easily or ye know, using bots.

PS: Most people that start with tablets or smartphones write a lot with them, it's mostly us computer nerds that have problems if they don't have a mouse and a full sized keyboard because we know better, hell I saw my cousin write long e-mails on a fricking i-pad.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 12:47:06 am by Det. Bullock »
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor