Author Topic: The EA-slagging parade  (Read 6222 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

All xbox pads are xinput. All generic pads you can buy are xinput. The DS4 support in Steam makes them look like XInput to games. DS3s, via dsfix, look like XInput. The Steam Controller is an XInput device in games that do not support it directly.
That's 95% of that chart covered.

All xbox pads are xinput - this is true

All generic pads you can buy are xinput - no they're not. Plenty of budget options like Mocute or older Saitek models(which are still being made and sold for under $15) are dinput only. Newer steelseries models are xinput only and Logitech's F310, 510, and 710 come with a selector switch for dinput/xinput.

The DS4 support in Steam makes them look like XInput to games - This is true, yet AC7 specifically has some major issues with this option like disconnecting the controller when guns are fired and non-working haptic feedback(aka rumble).

DS3s, via dsfix, look like XInput - lol wat. DSFix is Durante's GeDoSaTo applied to Dark Souls, it has no options for emulating xinput with DS3 gamepads AFAIK. x360ce can do this with basically any device(including a HOTAS) but you're now using 3rd party hook software which has 0 real support and can get you banned because of the "vagaries of cheat protection" which is why it's relevant.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker
    • My old squad sub-domain
Just wanted to say that the Deadspace 2 port on Steam runs bloody lovely.

 
All xbox pads are xinput. All generic pads you can buy are xinput. The DS4 support in Steam makes them look like XInput to games. DS3s, via dsfix, look like XInput. The Steam Controller is an XInput device in games that do not support it directly.
That's 95% of that chart covered.

counting 3rd party support through dsfix as support for dualshocks is just corporate bootlicking imo
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
To people that somehow follow AAA releases regularly and buy day one only to often find major issues: How do you do it?
This is my first day one triple A release in years and it's effing depressing, both the game issues themselves and the discussions around it.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
DS3s, via dsfix, look like XInput - lol wat. DSFix is Durante's GeDoSaTo applied to Dark Souls, it has no options for emulating xinput with DS3 gamepads AFAIK. x360ce can do this with basically any device(including a HOTAS) but you're now using 3rd party hook software which has 0 real support and can get you banned because of the "vagaries of cheat protection" which is why it's relevant.


I apologize for getting this wrong. I had "dsfix" in my mind as the name of the tool that allowed you to use DS3's under Windows (guess I got some mental wires crossed there), but a couple years ago, Sony actually released official drivers for the things that expose them as DInput devices.

Still though, even removing all the DS3 pads and all the generic pads from the XInput pool only reduces that pools' size to little less than 90%.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
All xbox pads are xinput. All generic pads you can buy are xinput. The DS4 support in Steam makes them look like XInput to games. DS3s, via dsfix, look like XInput. The Steam Controller is an XInput device in games that do not support it directly.
That's 95% of that chart covered.

counting 3rd party support through dsfix as support for dualshocks is just corporate bootlicking imo

Again, apologies for getting this wrong. I'm just human.

To people that somehow follow AAA releases regularly and buy day one only to often find major issues: How do you do it?
This is my first day one triple A release in years and it's effing depressing, both the game issues themselves and the discussions around it.

Most of the AAA releases I bought on day 1 were perfectly playable on that day (sometimes after applying a day 1 patch).

Then again, most of those games I buy I buy on PS4, sooooo.....
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
To people that somehow follow AAA releases regularly and buy day one only to often find major issues: How do you do it?
This is my first day one triple A release in years and it's effing depressing, both the game issues themselves and the discussions around it.

Never pre-order, never Day 1...but that aside, hasn’t this been an unusually smooth AAA (I’m not sure if AC is quite triple-A but whatever) launch? No massive day 1 patch, stable, performs well, no features delayed as DLC? You can pop in the disc/install the DL and play.

The long delay due to getting the VR **** right really gave them a chance to polish.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I’ve been really excited for this game but I’m absolutely giving it a few weeks and maybe a chance to go on sale, I’ve got plenty of backlog to catch up on. Just good practice for new releases (poor Just Cause fans  :()

 
Throwing 10% of the userbase under the bus is still not acceptable though. And another 20% with DS4s have to use a workaround in Steam's big picture mode that still has some issues. Even disregarding game specific issues like the ones AC7 seems to have you can't set up a circular deadzone(only a square one) which is just annoying and makes precise analog input harder than it should be.

Now add in all of the people with xinput devices(either generic PC pads like the F310 or xbox pads) who aren't satisfied with the pre-set control schemes and want to change them. Whoops, ya can't if there's no controller rebinding.
Better go dick around with vjoy, UCR, and x360ce to map your xinput device to a dinput virtual device then use UCR to remap it and then use x360ce to make that virtual device appear like an xinput device to the game and then dick around some more to make your original xinput device invisible.


But even ignoring those who can technically get the game to "work" with their pads either directly or through Steam are you really saying it's totally okay to throw an entire 10% of gamepad users under the bus because they're not the majority? 10% isn't exactly a small number.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 02:03:02 pm by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
But even ignoring those who can technically get the game to "work" with their pads either directly or through Steam are you really saying it's totally okay to throw an entire 10% of gamepad users under the bus because they're not the majority? 10% isn't exactly a small number.

It's a decision I'd understand. Not necessarily like, sure, but if I had to decide where I had to spend engineering budget and development effort, that's not where I'd spend it.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
So, why is it that the "supercomplicated" and "incomprehensible" CH Control Manager to me is easy to use while what Steam passes for a controller configurator is utterly confounding to me?
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 
You're not 'throwing someone under the bus' by making a product they can't use. If you say up front that your game only supports Xinput then what's the problem?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
I'm pretty sure the impact of the "review bomb" is going to cost Bamco more than spending 20-30 man-hours on basic directinput support and key rebinding would. Even in the form of a launcher with no in-game rebinding. Because those types of basic features are something even the bargainest binnest and indie-est of flight games support.
"But the PS4 was the primary market" is no excuse nor a good business decision. If you're going to invest in a PC port you might as well go all the way, I'm sure all the engineering work and testing that went into making the game run as smoothly as it does was orders of magnitude more expensive than basic controller support would be. Now a lot of that will go to waste because that yellow "mixed" review score will scare away a lot of "browsing buyers" who aren't familiar with the game or the series.

You're not 'throwing someone under the bus' by making a product they can't use. If you say up front that your game only supports Xinput then what's the problem?

Which isn't what Bamco did, they even advertised Thrustmaster sticks as being officially supported, which they now only are through a weird workaround with Thrustamster's drivers.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
So, why is it that the "supercomplicated" and "incomprehensible" CH Control Manager to me is easy to use while what Steam passes for a controller configurator is utterly confounding to me?

The only config you should have to do (outside the game itself) is plugging in your control device, any kind of third party configurator is end user confusion sauce.

As for AC7 controller support, they should've just said 'we are only supporting these pads at launch, and we'll work on patching in other controllers later.'

"But the PS4 was the primary market" is no excuse nor a good business decision. If you're going to invest in a PC port you might as well go all the way, I'm sure all the engineering work and testing that went into making the game run as smoothly as it does was orders of magnitude more expensive than basic controller support would be. Now a lot of that will go to waste because that yellow "mixed" review score will scare away a lot of "browsing buyers" who aren't familiar with the game or the series.

Making your game run smoothly on consoles is a lot better use of time than supporting a ton of peripherals, and probably got proportionately more attention. AC7 has always been a console-first franchise, and if their PC port bombs they'll probably just stop doing them.

 
Making your game run smoothly on consoles is a lot better use of time than supporting a ton of peripherals, and probably got proportionately more attention. AC7 has always been a console-first franchise, and if their PC port bombs they'll probably just stop doing them.

According to benchmarks it runs very smoothly on PC as well(a lot better than the base consoles which often dip to the 40s). And this whole "supporting a ton of peripherals" thing makes no sense to me. Supporting a single dinput device is as simple as supporting all of them.

Assault Horizon was a cheaply made port that released at a discounted price with all DLC included and it was far more competent as a port. If you want to laze out of basic features and sabotage your own sales then more power to you. But don't tell me it's a good business decision to do so. But I would agree that not doing a PC port at all is more sensible than going 95% of the way, lazing out on the last 5% and getting "review bombed" thus losing sales.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 02:47:05 pm by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Assault Horizon came out over a year later on PC, iirc.

I know Tipul was just a one man dev team but he really made it sound like supporting sticks was far far harder than just supporting pads. So I don’t think you’re right about one size fits all. But idk for sure.

 
But... Enemy Starfighter/House of the Dying sun has arbitrary dinput HID support. I can play it by using an F310 in xinput mode, Logitech racing pedals in dinput, and a keyboard simultaneously if I want to.

"full" stick support is tricky. If you want a ton of joysticks, HOTASes, rudder pedals, and other sim **** to be supported out of the box with keys all mapped correctly without the user having to bind everything manually you'll need a lot of work.
But for anything else you just need a dinput wrapper to translate the (up to) 8 axes and (up to) 128 buttons to controls your game uses. Even if the controls only show up as "BTN 1", "BTN74", "BTN5", etc."

Without this ability tools like vjoy and UCR would be useless since the virtual sticks it creates  can have weird and impossible(for a physical stick) layouts.

Supporting xinput pads is much "simpler" because they're all guaranteed to have the same layout so you only need a single control scheme for all of them. Basically, xinput makes "plug n play" extremely easy, while doing the same with any arbitrary dinput HID is nearly impossible. But if you just want basic functionality and let users deal with the rebinding then dinput can work as "one size fits all".
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 03:55:30 pm by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Here's what I can tell you on this topic: joystick support for House was a constant source of complaints and such a code nightmare that Tipul gave up on it. For more detail you'll have to go to him.

 
Joysticks "work" in HODS but they're not "officially supported" from what the dev said on the Steam forums.

Quote
Stephen is right, it was developed on gamepads and KBAM. You can rebind your keys and buttons, but at least until sometime later, you're kinda on your own for support.

Here's how it usually goes with flight sticks and me:

Player: "Hey my stick keeps rolling right, what the hell this sucks!"
Me: "OK, let me try to debug this with you. Do you have anything else plugged in?"
Player: "No."
*spends hours ripping things apart in code, setting breakpoints, swearing*
Me: "I can't figure this out, did you try <suggestion>?"
Player: "Oh I got it working. My fifth rotary was set as axis 1 and it was turned up."

...which makes me die a little every time. :(

The middleware I use is actually pretty good at letting you bind things, and I can definitely make sure that stuff works, I just don't have the time to walk you through weird problems, which is why they're not "officially" supported.

If people find good defaults for their controller and want to share them, I can hook those up so everyone can benefit.

I can definitely agree with this stance. Making proper defaults for every single configuration out there is a horrible pain in the ass and an endless pit of work. But giving players the ability to rebind their controls and letting them deal with whatever weird quirks come up themselves isn't much of a problem.
If BAMCO wanted to make presets and good defaults for the "officially supported" 2 thrustmaster sticks and let everyone else deal with their problems on their own I'm pretty sure the backlash wouldn't have happened. People with rare and unconventional control devices(like HOTASes) are used to this kind of work.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
In other news: I managed to get x360ce to work with the game, I don't know what I did exactly but I'm not in the habit of looking at a gifted horse's mouth.
I did a few rounds in multiplayer, the first one ending in disaster because the pitch axis was inverted and couldn't be changed during gameplay.

Here's what I can tell you on this topic: joystick support for House was a constant source of complaints and such a code nightmare that Tipul gave up on it. For more detail you'll have to go to him.

My HOTAS works perfectly in HoTDS, binding stuff manually is not an issue. A lot of people thought they had issues because the throttle is both normal speed and afterburner, it took me a while to notice too but after that I could adjust easily. I even posted this on the Steam Discussion forum but I guess by that time he had already given up.

They might as well be officially supported, I can't see how anything that isn't something really weird like some old Force Feedback stick wouldn't work.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor