Author Topic: The EA-slagging parade  (Read 6258 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
Because, like NFL games, they appeal to a hardcore audience with a very specific interest in a real world thing.

You could say the same thing about flight simulators.

Sure, I'd say the same thing about flight simulators. You've got your Asseto Corsas, your Falcon BMS, your DCS. They're all firmly in the enthusiast/hobbyist category.

So I guess my follow-up question is do you think that the lack of a "real thing" makes space sims all that different?  And if so, why?

I think joysticks did the commercial success of space sims no favors, and that any modern space sim would absolutely need to be built for gamepad. And yeah, I think the lack of a 'real thing' makes space sims different. The motive to learn every switch in a Falcon 4 BMS cockpit is that it's real. The motive to play X-wing is that it's fun and makes you feel like you're in Star Wars.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
I remember going from wing commander 3 to x wing collectors cd,  and reading the controls in the book (back when games had good amounts of documents full of juicy lore (homeworld had the best)) and thinking "holy crap that's a lot to remember compared to wing commander! !"   But yeah it was great for immersion.

 
Re: The EA-slagging parade
If joysticks killed space sims, then how are hardcore racing sims that often support four-figure customized setups still alive and thriving?
Because you can also play those with controllers just fine. Racing sims enable the racing game peripheral industry, not the other way around.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
AC7 PC has apparently been review-bombed into the groun by HOTAS users because it's not compatible with their peripherals. A wonderful signal to send about the value of doing PC ports!

(joysticks were a mistake)

 

Offline IronBeer

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Ridiculous, the Director's Cut

Starlancer Head Animations - Converted

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
AC7 PC has apparently been review-bombed into the groun by HOTAS users because it's not compatible with their peripherals. A wonderful signal to send about the value of doing PC ports!

(joysticks were a mistake)

Not just HOTAS, it doesn't recognize even the sponsored AC branded Thrustmaster ones, it doesn't recognize any Dinput device.

On Reddit Bamco made known that it's a bug.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
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Offline deathspeed

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
A wonderful signal to send to developers to do PC ports right.  PC users generally expect to be able to use a mouse to navigate menus, and to be able to use something other than a gamepad for gameplay.  They want a PC game, not a PlayStation game on the PC.

It does sound like maybe the controller issues are a bug.  I hope so; I would love to pick up this game sometime but I likely will not if I can't play with a joystick.  And I hope that if it is fixed, all those reviewers go back and update their reviews.  :)  Wishful thinking, I know.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
Yeah, I'm sure that's the signal they'll receive.

 

Offline deathspeed

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
LOL true; I'm sure how they will actually take it is "Screw those picky PC players who want to have it their way.  We are not Burger King.  We make enough money from consoles to not have to deal with this crap." 

One can dream, right?  To paraphrase a passage from Seth Dickinson: "A lot of people believe that the whole thing's a problem of communication, fundamentally solvable. Players argue that if only they and the developers could just figure out what to say, how to save face and stand down, they could find a joint solution. A way to give the players choices in control while preserving the developer from economic collapse and the threat of  extermination from coding inputs for multiple devices. It’s the Ubuntu dream, the human solution."

 ;)
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
AC7 PC has apparently been review-bombed into the groun by HOTAS users because it's not compatible with their peripherals. A wonderful signal to send about the value of doing PC ports!

(joysticks were a mistake)
Perhaps if the PC version devs had, y'know, shipped the game without bugs rendering game-branded hardware incapable of working, this wouldn't be an issue.  I'm not condoning review-bombing, but that's a pretty glaring thing to miss.

Seriously, Battman, what is your malfunction with joystick users?  If that's not your control preference, fine, use whatever you like, no one cares.  But why slag off on a group of users who just want to play with the controller that feels most natural for them (and if we're being honest, for the genre as a whole)?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
Because chasing after joystick users is a bad idea for mass market games, and because joystick users are insufferable when mass market games don't support them. Enemy Starfighter was a real learning experience in why people don't make space sims any more.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The EA-slagging parade
But more of the pro-FS principle of 'how do we make this game work comfortably on gamepads' and 'any notional FS3 would need to be a gamepad-first game.'

e: on MWLL we had to cut in-client joystick support because it made the game randomly CTD :gamedev:

 

Offline Mongoose

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There is a massive middle ground between "chasing after" and "actively attempting to alienate," especially when you're dealing with an interface technology that is quite literally decades old.  It's not like people are asking them to get room-scale VR working perfectly here.  Hell, from what I've read, the game doesn't even support using a mouse to navigate its menus, which is a pretty damn low hurdle to clear.

And while the "mass market" may not care either way about joystick support, the smaller enthusiast side of the sales bell curve provides a great deal of value as well, particular in generating and maintaining enthusiasm and interest in a title.  Most developers don't tend to be in the habit of driving away decent percentages of their potential market.  Surely Bandai Namco had to realize that there's a pretty large overlap between "people who play flight games on PC" and "people who own stick/HOTAS setups."

 

Offline starlord

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At this point, I believe answers could come from third party joystick mapping programs like joy2key.

 
Because chasing after joystick users is a bad idea for mass market games, and because joystick users are insufferable when mass market games don't support them. Enemy Starfighter was a real learning experience in why people don't make space sims any more.

I fully support joystick users getting pissed off if a company happy to bilk them for joysticks branded for this specific game cannot then be ****ed to actually make the two products work together. Whatever your views on joysticks in general they have every right to demand a working product for their money.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
And while the "mass market" may not care either way about joystick support, the smaller enthusiast side of the sales bell curve provides a great deal of value as well, particular in generating and maintaining enthusiasm and interest in a title.  Most developers don't tend to be in the habit of driving away decent percentages of their potential market.  Surely Bandai Namco had to realize that there's a pretty large overlap between "people who play flight games on PC" and "people who own stick/HOTAS setups."

On the other hand if you actually listen to what Battuta's saying you'd realise that this simply isn't true. Joystick users are a small group, joystick users who are too stuck up to just play a good game on other input methods if necessary smaller still, so there's not actually that much value to gain from joystick support. Worse still, they're majorly fragmented across different manufacturers and models and so cost disproportionately more to support than kb+m or gamepads. He's just given two examples of games where the developers concluded that joystick support was a net loss. If Bandai had just said the same thing and come clean that there would be no HOTAS support I'd have no sympathy for the joystick users whatsoever.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Because chasing after joystick users is a bad idea for mass market games, and because joystick users are insufferable when mass market games don't support them. Enemy Starfighter was a real learning experience in why people don't make space sims any more.

I fully support joystick users getting pissed off if a company happy to bilk them for joysticks branded for this specific game cannot then be ****ed to actually make the two products work together. Whatever your views on joysticks in general they have every right to demand a working product for their money.

I agree! Trying to make joysticks for this game was a MISTAKE!

 

Offline General Battuta

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There is a massive middle ground between "chasing after" and "actively attempting to alienate," especially when you're dealing with an interface technology that is quite literally decades old.  It's not like people are asking them to get room-scale VR working perfectly here.  Hell, from what I've read, the game doesn't even support using a mouse to navigate its menus, which is a pretty damn low hurdle to clear.

Assault Horizon didn't either and it was a pretty darn good PC port anyway. Hell, I don't think MGS5 supports mouse menus and it's a great PC port.

There is no middle ground between 'chasing after' and 'actively attempting to alienate' because, like you said, the interface technology is decades old. Joystick support is a nightmare and will not work unless you put a ton of time and energy into it. And even then everything will break for no reason.

Quote
And while the "mass market" may not care either way about joystick support, the smaller enthusiast side of the sales bell curve provides a great deal of value as well, particular in generating and maintaining enthusiasm and interest in a title.  Most developers don't tend to be in the habit of driving away decent percentages of their potential market.  Surely Bandai Namco had to realize that there's a pretty large overlap between "people who play flight games on PC" and "people who own stick/HOTAS setups."

If they want AC7 to be successful then I imagine the overlap between "people we hope will buy this game" and "people who own stick/HOTAS setups" is very small, because "people who own stick/HOTAS setups" is very small.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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"people who own stick/HOTAS setups" is very small.

I agree, but everyone on Elite Dangerous Social media seem to go ape**** for HOTAS and i'm like "Whyyyyyy? M+Kb for life".

On a similar note though, i'm really tempted to get PSVR for AC7.......i'd get the Firewall FPS for my wife too but would it justify the expense?

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Because chasing after joystick users is a bad idea for mass market games, and because joystick users are insufferable when mass market games don't support them. Enemy Starfighter was a real learning experience in why people don't make space sims any more.

I fully support joystick users getting pissed off if a company happy to bilk them for joysticks branded for this specific game cannot then be ****ed to actually make the two products work together. Whatever your views on joysticks in general they have every right to demand a working product for their money.

I agree! Trying to make joysticks for this game was a MISTAKE!

They technically didin't, they are cheap pre-existing generic models with an Ace Combat sticker slapped on them and they seemingly didn't bother to plug one of those to one of the dev's computers to see if it worked.

Next to make you happy no racing games on either consoles or PC will support steering wheels, don't worry.

Besides, any griping about hotas prices when a frigging Xbone controller costs 70 euros sounds incredibly stupid to me.
"people who own stick/HOTAS setups" is very small.

I agree, but everyone on Elite Dangerous Social media seem to go ape**** for HOTAS and i'm like "Whyyyyyy? M+Kb for life".

On a similar note though, i'm really tempted to get PSVR for AC7.......i'd get the Firewall FPS for my wife too but would it justify the expense?

I can understand a pad but I can conceive m+k for a flight game at the moment.

And the worst thing is I probably woudl use a pad, but mine is out of commission at the moment and I'm still waiting for the spare part to fix it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 08:34:09 am by Det. Bullock »
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor