Author Topic: What are Command mistakes  (Read 3122 times)

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What are Command mistakes
Hello everyone,,
I keep reading that Command was stupid in FS 1 and even more in FS2.
While I see that it does mistakes, and often understaff its strike forces, what are according to you Command "blunders" ? I mean - real blunders, being stupid - , not "mistakes" like underestimating a Shivan force by lack of information (in FS and in FS2)

 

Offline NeonShivan

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Throwing the Phoenicia out in front of the Sathanas to "stall it". To name one.
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Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Telling the player to fly into the Lucifer's fighterbay.



Like, what did command even expect us to do if we got in undetected?

Storm the Lucifer alone with our sidearm? Take over the ship single-handedly? Blow stuff up the Lucifer isn't supposed to?  :p


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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: What are Command mistakes
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Offline Mito [PL]

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Re: What are Command mistakes
...or see how many fighters/bombers Shivans have available or finding some weak points. I think that spaceships can fly through the shields and even a single wing of bombers could deal a lot of damage to a vessel from inside. Definitely more than from the outside, even with shields turned down (thx subspace).

So, a couple from me:
1. Assaulting the Ravana, the most dangerous Shivan destroyer met (except Lucy) with only a mere single wing of bombers and single wing of fighters plus a corvette for distraction. Seriously, the mission is crazy hard on higher difficulties basically for no reason. Or they could have the corvette dirtily use the gigantic beamless spots on the Shivan warship too, even without bomber support.

2. Building the Colossus.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Letting.
Bosch.
Open.
The.
Knossos.....
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
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-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
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-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
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(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Letting.
Bosch.
Open.
The.
Knossos.....

Well they didn't knew that. Not closing it would count. Building one and possibly dooming Sol would too.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Aw this guy believes the GTVA didn't know!
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Aw this guy believes the GTVA didn't know!

👆👆
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Re: What are Command mistakes
Common, just a tiny-whiny Trinity in the vastness of space~ :D

 

Offline Colt

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Hmm. I found it odd that Kappa and Iota weren't paired together when the Aquitaine started to scout the Nebula. Perhaps if Command let them patrol together, the chance of Kappa going MIA might have dropped a bit.

 
Re: What are Command mistakes
A lot of this is showing some selective memory, or at least not presenting the FULL facts of the situation.
The Colossus was designed to be a Lucifer/Great War Shivan fleet killer. It also engaged a Sathanas on favorable terms and won. It's ludicrous to say the ship didn't perform, it was simply overwhelmed by a class of Shivan warship no one could have anticipated.
Command did have a plan to kill the Sathanas in the nebula using positing and tactics, it didn't work. The Sathanas evaded the trap and lure operation Speaking in Tongues. At that point, with the Sathanas barreling down on Capella, yes, it probably was worth throwing a destroyer in front of it to buy time. Everyone has a plan until they get hit.
Command didn't "let" Bosch open the portal. They had no idea it even existed. He was let go to allow SOC to continue their investigations and possibly recover ETAK. Which was stolen technology.
Basically there's a lot of basis of judgement on things we, the player, know, but Command could have had no reasonable chance of knowing. Other than vastly underestimating the scope of the Shivan threat.
Even allowing the portal to stay open was deemed and acceptable risk *because* of the chance of replicating the Knossos, to allow a return to Earth which would help heal all of human civilization.

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Re: What are Command mistakes
A lot of this is showing some selective memory, or at least not presenting the FULL facts of the situation.
The Colossus was designed to be a Lucifer/Great War Shivan fleet killer. It also engaged a Sathanas on favorable terms and won. It's ludicrous to say the ship didn't perform, it was simply overwhelmed by a class of Shivan warship no one could have anticipated.

This. There's a trope from Tvtropes that also sums up the Colossus in FS2: Awesome but Impractical. I'll provide the full quote:
Quote
Awesome, but Impractical: The GTVA Colossus ends up being this despite the best of intentions. It follows a standard Terran design despite being co-developed by Vasudans; it can't project very much of its firepower in one direction but can engage multiple smaller ships in all directions at the same time, and is durable enough to win even if heavily outnumbered. This is exactly what the GTVA needs against the NTF, and is exactly what they could've used during the Great War. Unfortunately, the designers never imagined it would ever have to fight something of comparable size and durability, where its inability to deliver most of its firepower into a single target turns into a massive handicap.

This is exactly right. Remember, the GTVA had been fighting the NTF for 18 months with no end in sight until the Colossus was finally completed and deployed. As evidence that there was no end in sight at this time is this: just before the Colossus was deployed, the GTVA launched a two-pronged assault on Sirius that failed. Just after that, the NTF counterattacked in Epsilon Pegasi, causing more than 75% casualties to GTVA forces. 75%. As I understand it, anything over just 30% casualties to a military force is devastating. (I don't remember the exact circumstances or when it happened, but I do remember a retired general being interviewed on the news saying this.) This proof positive that the NTF was more than holding its own during the NTF Rebellion so the stalemate showed no signs of abating.

But once it was finally deployed, the Colossus made short work of the NTF's fleet in Epsilon Pegasi, finally driving the NTF from that system. Shortly afterwards, Alpha Centauri, Deneb and Sirius finally fell to the GTVA. It's unknown whether the Colossus was redeployed to those systems and had a hand in those victories, but it's probably more than likely. So an 18-month statlemate was broken in a few weeks, if not mere days, by the Colossus. As noted above, this is its intended design function: to take on multiple smaller ships at the same time and prevail even when outnumbered. Manwithamachinegun is exactly right: Up until the Sathanas showed up, the Colossus was functioning exactly as it was designed to do.

Command did have a plan to kill the Sathanas in the nebula using positing and tactics, it didn't work. The Sathanas evaded the trap and lure operation Speaking in Tongues. At that point, with the Sathanas barreling down on Capella, yes, it probably was worth throwing a destroyer in front of it to buy time. Everyone has a plan until they get hit.
Command didn't "let" Bosch open the portal. They had no idea it even existed. He was let go to allow SOC to continue their investigations and possibly recover ETAK. Which was stolen technology.
Basically there's a lot of basis of judgement on things we, the player, know, but Command could have had no reasonable chance of knowing. Other than vastly underestimating the scope of the Shivan threat.
Even allowing the portal to stay open was deemed and acceptable risk *because* of the chance of replicating the Knossos, to allow a return to Earth which would help heal all of human civilization.

+1 to all this as well. No one knew the Knossos device was in Gamma Draconis until Bosch first discovered its existence at Deneb after he had partially conquered the system and plundered its archaeological sites during the NTF Rebellion. As for ETAK, Bosch had been gathering data on Shivan communication for years, if not decades, starting with him being involved in the fight against the GTI rebellion and him rising in the ranks to admiral just so he could get the GTI's research and build ETAK. Even during the start of the NTF rebellion, the GTVA had no (or perhaps a slim) idea of what the hell ETAK actually was. Some in the GTVA speculated that ETAK was a weapon of mass destruction long before it was discovered that ETAK was a Shivan communication device. All the GTVA Command knew was that ETAK was a project that Bosch was devoting all of his resources to. Thus if Bosch wanted ETAK that badly, then it was something that the GTVA needed to find (and acquire intact) pronto. That's why Command let Bosch go and lifted the blockade at the Deneb-Sirius jump node: because if the Iceni was destroyed then, so was any hope of discovering or acquiring ETAK.

Even at Gamma Draconis, the GTVA made the correct decisions according to the knowledge they had: They kept the Knossos device intact long enough to be sure they could construct another and destroyed it before the Sathanas could use it. No one (except genre-savvy out-of-universe players like us) could have predicted that the device would stabilize the Gamma Draconis-Shivan Nebula jump node even after being destroyed.
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Offline theperfectdrugsk

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Re: What are Command mistakes
The Boanerges.

 
Re: What are Command mistakes
If we're talking about Command blunders, how about their inability to deal with Bosch? Who stonewalled the entire combined GTVA despite their best strategies. That's a much more reasonable criticism than the failure to account for the seemingly godlike capacities of the Shivan warfleet. The NTF had no next-gen destroyers like the Hecate or Hatshepsut. No advanced fighters like the spec-ops Erinyes or Perseus. And yet Bosch was not only able to stall any advances into his territory, the entire campaign was teetering on collapse before the Colussus was destroyed, from both the Terrans and Vasudans alike.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Command no major mistakes in the FS2 story, afaict. They acted well on the information they had. Pushing the Psamtik to get through the second Knossos as fast as possible was maybe a tactical error.

Can't we put a blanket ban on quoting TVTropes yet  :nono:

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: What are Command mistakes
If we're talking about Command blunders, how about their inability to deal with Bosch? Who stonewalled the entire combined GTVA despite their best strategies. That's a much more reasonable criticism than the failure to account for the seemingly godlike capacities of the Shivan warfleet. The NTF had no next-gen destroyers like the Hecate or Hatshepsut. No advanced fighters like the spec-ops Erinyes or Perseus. And yet Bosch was not only able to stall any advances into his territory, the entire campaign was teetering on collapse before the Colussus was destroyed, from both the Terrans and Vasudans alike.
I think this is largely a function of how strategic warfare works in the FS-verse.  Intersystem jump nodes are unavoidable hard bottlenecks, and if you can do what Bosch did and get a few interconnected systems to go rogue in short order, it'd be ostensibly very easy to establish a blockade on your side of the outgoing nodes and make it nigh-impossible for someone to punch through.  I'd imagine the main reason the NTF conflict dragged on for so long and cost the GTVA so many resources was because of that fact.  It took something like the Colossus, a genuine blockade-buster, to punch a way through and give the GTVA a legitimate opening.

As for the Colossus itself, I fully agree that it performed the task it was designed to do fairly well.  The main issue is one as old as warfare, in that generals are always prepared to fight the previous war.

 
 

Offline Su-tehp

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Re: What are Command mistakes
Can't we put a blanket ban on quoting TVTropes yet  :nono:

What, why??? TvTropes is awesome! :cool: :nod: :pimp: :yes: :yes: :yes:
REPUBLICANO FACTIO DELENDA EST

Creator of the Devil and the Deep Blue campaign - Current Story Editor of the Exile campaign

"Let my people handle this, we're trained professionals. Well, we're semi-trained, quasi-professionals, at any rate." --Roy Greenhilt,
The Order of the Stick

"Let´s face it, we Freespace players may not be the most sophisticated of gaming freaks, but we do know enough to recognize a heap of steaming crap when it´s right in front of us."
--Su-tehp, while posting on the DatDB internal forum

"The meaning of life is that in the end you always get screwed."
--The Catch 42 Expression, The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast

 
Re: What are Command mistakes
Can't we put a blanket ban on quoting TVTropes yet  :nono:

What, why??? TvTropes is awesome! :cool: :nod: :pimp: :yes: :yes: :yes:

You could just as well ban quoting forum posts from before 2005 that promote a different opinion than Battutas. ;)