[Phantom Hoover]

Please, Mobius, I am asking you sincerely, stop trying to argue to everyone who wanted this outcome that they've ruined the site. Apart from anything else it's the last thing the staff need to deal with right now. The best thing for modding on this site right now is for members to take constructive steps to fix the damage left after this whole sorry affair.

[Mobius]

These are legitimate questions that address the core of the issue and - you know - they may have their answer.

We've got community members over here saying that the right thing has been done for HLP and the FreeSpace community as a whole. Please come forward and explain, I'm all ears. As of today, my fact-checking tool is getting opposite results.

Time will tell.

[EatThePath]

I said something like this over on discord in response to similar statements, but I'll say it again here.

Mobius, the good supposed by advocates of removal is the reduction of a negative influence on forum culture and a salvaging of the credibility of the running of the forum in the eyes of those who saw it as deeply tarnished. Any benefit going forward is in a better forum environment than would have been had otherwise, which between being a very subjective, nebulous thing and being a future outcome compared to an alternate possible future outcome we will never see, is practically impossible to measure ever and doubly impossible to measure now.

If you want to tell me how people could measure that, then go right ahead, but otherwise all you're doing is casting shade and stirring the pot without any constructive use. The best analogy I can think if is that you're going to someone immediately after a bad breakup, demanding they prove that they're going to be happier in a year and pointing to all the skills of their ex they don't have access to as objective proof they're going to have to offset.

You clearly think this all was unproportional, unjustified, mishandled and counterproductive, and I think it's fair to make that known. By instead staking your claim on a moral high ground by claiming objectivity and lording it over the people who disagree, I don't see how you expect to accomplish anything but irritating people.

[Nyctaeus]

I think that everything we, as community just displayed, is lack of understanding, common sense, capability to calm down and state our merits in cultural discussion. We as community displayed, that we make decisions driven by hysteria, accusations, threats and chaos.

What many people see and PM me about is drama. People are afraid about future of promising projects, functioning community they are attached to and the game they love. This is no ****ing victory, because there was never enemy to fight against... Unless one is crazy about politics. I think Goob made one step too far. But others made just another step instead of stepping down and get calm. The guy who contributed insane amount of content and helped many people deserved for fair verdict, but instead he just got ****ing demonified. Actually Axem and MP-Ryan are the only ones who actually did a good job there, keeping cool heads.

Just look what you guys have done. You all just generated one of the worst drama that ever happened in this community. The one that people will remember for years. I hear people really afraid if this is an end of HLP. And you call this a ****ing victory...

I've made countless assets not only because I love the game with my whole heart, but also because I want to support great people on their modding endeavours. Now I'm really confused and unsure, if I make all this stuff for people who are really dedicated to keep the game alive and kicking, or just a bunch of infantile screamers who are unable to talk and find an understanding like adults. And I am really unsure, if I want to stay here.

[Aesaar]

I'm just going to remind everyone lamenting the loss of Sandwich and Goober as staff that there were other members of staff who intended to resign if Goober remained an admin (The_E and Mongoose stated so earlier, and Karajorma was apparently strongly considering it too).  Any notion that the status quo could have been maintained in the face of Goober's lack of remorse is utterly laughable.

It sucks, but a compromise had been reached.  All Goober had to do was swallow his pride and make a sincere apology.  This was apparently beyond him.

[MP-Ryan]

Feelings are really raw for everyone right now; I'd like to suggest that everyone take some time to think things over, take a break, and calm down before making any pronouncements or decisions. We've apparently lost one major contributor over this already and had two others who have provided substantial technical support  and content over the years removed from those roles. This doesn't include those who have left in years past due to hard feelings either.

We're a small group united by enjoyment of an elderly game and the fantastic new things our community has made from it. It's going to be tough for a little while, but hopefully we can come out of this with a better set up for the future. It would be a terrible shame to lose anything or anyone more over this.

Everyone, no matter what your feelings on this, take a deep breath and a short break if you need to. The lights are staying on.

[General Battuta]

Can I post the geek social fallacies? You're allowed to say no

[karajorma]

It seems like a reasonable idea. I just had a look through them myself.

For anyone joining us this late, both Sandwich and Goober have been demoted from their administration roles but are still members on this board. It does appear as though other moderators and the board in general has come to terms with what happened so I don't know if a post summing up things is really required. Is there anything that actually needs to be addressed? I mean actually is needed rather than a desire to gossip about what happened?

So instead I'd like to post a thread asking about the future of HLP. I'm still writing on it even as I work on this one.

[Grizzly]

I think it would help to just have a summation of events from a person we can trust, rather then the whole mixed-messaging-over-several-pages-of-arguments-where-it-was-obvious-that-some-people-were-operating-on-entirely-different-standards-as-everyone-else.

Mabye include it in the new thread instead.

[karajorma]

One of the problems with doing that is that I doubt anyone knows the full story. Apart from Axem's post, I've heard nothing more on why he left.

[BlackDove]

From what I gathered from what others have said, and his post, he was on his way out anyway, and what pushed him over the edge to fully commit to leaving was the absolute state of inability to deal with serious issues in the private admin forum, and what said members had to resort to in order to get things done.

[Grizzly]

One of the problems with doing that is that I doubt anyone knows the full story. Apart from Axem's post, I've heard nothing more on why he left.

It's not neccesary for you to think about what Axem's motivations were beyond to just make a single post that sums up several threads and two dozen pages.

[Sandwich]

I think it would help to just have a summation of events from a person we can trust, rather then the whole mixed-messaging-over-several-pages-of-arguments-where-it-was-obvious-that-some-people-were-operating-on-entirely-different-standards-as-everyone-else.

Mabye include it in the new thread instead.

Seeing the new thread, a summation of events has no place there. However, I've raised the idea with the staff.

[Sandwich]

It sucks, but a compromise had been reached.  All Goober had to do was swallow his pride and make a sincere apology.  This was apparently beyond him.

I was going to post a rebuttal to this, but instead, kara at least has agreed that the staff should try to write a summation of events for the community. Hopefully that will both answer a lot of your questions, correct any mistaken assumptions or misunderstandings, and clarify exactly what happened.

[General Battuta]

The Geek Social Fallacies

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil
GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in -- or tolerating -- the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration -- and it usually does -- it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don't like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don't know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.

Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am
The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their "tribe" as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

This seems straightforward and reasonable. It's important for people to have a space where they feel safe and accepted. Ideally, everyone's social group would be a safe haven. When people who rely too heavily upon that refuge feel insecure in that haven, however, a commendable ideal mutates into its pathological form, GSF2.

Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend. Thus, they can't take criticism from friends -- criticism is experienced as a treacherous betrayal of the friendship, no matter how inappropriate the criticized behavior may be.

Conversely, most carriers will never criticize a friend under any circumstances; the duty to be supportive trumps any impulse to point out unacceptable behavior.

GSF2 has extensive consequences within a group. Its presence in substantial quantity within a social group vastly increases the group's conflict-averseness. People spend hours debating how to deal with conflicts, because they know (or sometimes merely fear) that the other person involved is a GSF2 carrier, and any attempt to confront them directly will only make things worse. As a result, people let grudges brew much longer than is healthy, and they spend absurd amounts of time deconstructing their interpersonal dramas in search of a back way out of a dilemma.

Ironically, GSF2 carriers often take criticism from coworkers, supervisors, and mentors quite well; those individuals aren't friends, and aren't expected to accept the carrier unconditionally.

[jr2]

Goober and myself, but by actions that everyone "else" took as well.

So it's you two vs everyone else hmmm?

No, pretty sure the rest of us are either gone already or too smart to get involved with situations like this.  Stick to the gaming and modding aspects, tell mjn his cutscenes are awesome, don't go into the vents, cause something worse than Carl has been breeding there for for the past 8 or so years.

Those who rejected my apology broke it first.  I fulfilled all the terms of my agreement.

I'll finally make that Scroll cutscene if you can provide a heartfelt, sincere apology.

The thing is, I had been composing a heartfelt, sincere apology.  I told the admins on Monday that I was composing it, and I worked on it each day from Monday through Wednesday.  They took these actions without even waiting to see what the new apology looked like.

Heartfelt, sincere apologies should only be given if they are called for, and if they are called for, should be given regardless of actions on the other side.  If you feel you should have given an apology, you should give it regardless of any agreement or the breaking of said agreement.  Do your part, and don't read the replies until you're in a mental state to take them, cause they aren't going to be nice, save for maybe one or two, and that's being generous.

[Grizzly]

No, pretty sure the rest of us are either gone already or too smart to get involved with situations like this.  Stick to the gaming and modding aspects, tell mjn his cutscenes are awesome, don't go into the vents, cause something worse than Carl has been breeding there for for the past 8 or so years.

Point of order: My hmmmm specifically referred to people on the staff.

[jr2]

No, pretty sure the rest of us are either gone already or too smart to get involved with situations like this.  Stick to the gaming and modding aspects, tell mjn his cutscenes are awesome, don't go into the vents, cause something worse than Carl has been breeding there for for the past 8 or so years.

Point of order: My hmmmm specifically referred to people on the staff.

Ah, ok, never mind then.  I think Sandwich was talking about the thread that started this all and the community, not just the staff, but I could be wrong.

[CT27]

This is the first time I've waded into this Goober situation here.


I'll just say this for now:  Goober, like others have suggested, I would advise posting that new apology when you get it written out.  Like jr2 said recently, if you wrote a truly heartfelt and sincere apology then you felt something needed to be said on your part regardless of how you perceive actions of other people.  Others (even Battuta) said they would want to see it and be willing to give it a chance.


At the least, what could it hurt?

[Nightmare]

I was going to post a rebuttal to this, but instead, kara at least has agreed that the staff should try to write a summation of events for the community. Hopefully that will both answer a lot of your questions, correct any mistaken assumptions or misunderstandings, and clarify exactly what happened.

I am highly interested in hearing this.