[Colonol Dekker]

Objection.

Evidence of cuteness needs presenting to the floor.
*appropriate cuteness

[SilverAngelX]

A lot of technical questions and remarks have been discussed in this thread so far. But I think one aspect should get more attention and thought: What should our goals for the and as a community be?

As someone who hasn't been an active part of this community until a few months ago, I can't help but notice that there seem to be quite a lot of grudges and grievances in this community, among its members and also between some members and its staff. Some of those grudges have reached their boiling point recently, as evidenced by some of the recent threads in this sub-forum. And while I'm part of forum communities long enough to know that conflicts are inevitable among communities larger than one person, those in this community seem to be rather well-fed and becoming increasingly volatile.

So, the question is: What are we gonna do about it going forward? How do we deal with those conflicts as a community and especially what shall the role of moderators be? When should they intervene and how? The question of rules has been asked, but there's then also the question in which manner these rules shall be enforced.

I don't want to pretend that I know the answers to those questions. From what I'm seeing, right now some long withheld feelings are being vented, which can be a good start, but it then has to be moved towards some form of constructive change. Alternatively, a way must be found to lay those conflicts to rest, let go and then start anew. Most importantly this has to be the case for the grudges towards the staff, since a lack of trust in those in power can be fatal for any change attempted by this community. Again, I don't have any patent remedy to this issue, especially as I don't know the backstory of those conflicts. So, I can only offer my observations from a somewhat outside perspective.

[karajorma]

I'm splitting out the Nazi stuff. While it might be something to talk about, it's not really the most important thing when we're talking about HLP's future

[Lorric]

Snip

Okay. Let's talk about reality. Ryan, I know you want civil discourse to take place here, this is impossible right now. It comes down to whether you're (all staff) willing to intervene to stop the "cultivating" that is practiced here, or does it continue as it has for years?

[BlackDove]

[spart_n]

will HLP be less whiny for 2021 than it has been in the past month

[BlackDove]

will HLP be less whiny for 2021 than it has been in the past month

[Phantom Hoover]

Snip

Okay. Let's talk about reality. Ryan, I know you want civil discourse to take place here, this is impossible right now. It comes down to whether you're (all staff) willing to intervene to stop the "cultivating" that is practiced here, or does it continue as it has for years?

are you now accusing HLP of being a grow op or something

[RazorsKiss]

My 2 cents, after watching the blowup here so soon after returning...

This isn't the first project or gaming-related forum to have a poldisc section. IME, they all end up causing bad blood between members that spills into the nominal reason they have for community cohesion - and this has been something I have found to be true over decades of online interaction. OTOH, this is 2020, people are mucho stressed out, and this is on the end of a nice little decade-long cycle of mutual animosity between two generally hostile socio-political movements, which has had a spillover into every facet of interpersonal dynamics, much of it coming to a head the past few years.

I have run IRC servers and channels for a long time - even the ones where most of the members have approximately similar views, the tiniest differences in political views are eventual causes for drama. I get why people want to keep political boards around - they can be fun if you have people who are able to get along discussing the topics - but our ability to get along seems to have decreased markedly in the past decade or so. In such a powderkeg of an environment, why keep a clacker and detcord hooked up to that powderkeg at all times? I would absolutely ban anything socio-political when it comes to current events, were it me. No news, no op-ed, no nada. While I know many of us pride ourselves on being open-minded, purely objective conversationalists - we're not - and practically everyone else we know isn't either. That being the case, we are almost certain to have those same enculturated responses to particular stimuli that are a hallmark of modern western society - and knee-jerk accordingly - which results in the sort of rabid piling on we see most on Twitter and Facebook. When it comes to places like this, we're surprised - but we shouldn't be. We aren't free of our culture's habits and idiosyncrasies.

PolDisc is dangerous to small communities because it threatens (at the expense of friendships and cohesion) the smaller, immediate community for the sake of larger, more nebulous allegiances to which we may also belong - and which we have a habit of defending on *other* platforms in a way which lends itself more to lynch mobs than discussion groups.  Yeah, it often is mitigated to some extent by friendships - but what about those people who just rub you the wrong way? There's always a temptation to just unload on them the way you would on some rando on Twitter - and which leads us here. Especially after the 10th or 12th unloading from either "side" of the revolving discussion.

So, for tldr purposes - poldisc runs an everpresent risk of dragging cultural baggage into *everything* you do - unless you ban it altogether.

[jg18]

Not to backseat moderate, but I wonder if the last post might be better suited to the "Let's burn PolDisc" thread?

In any case, this thread has some excellent posts from TheUnforgiving, RazorsKiss, and SilverAngelX, among others. The "recently joined" perspective that some can bring is especially valuable IMO.

While the community aspects of the discussion are definitely worth exploring more, I can speak better to the technical side.

Re: social media, yes it would be great if there are people willing to regularly promote HLP and its creations on those channels, and spreading the work among multiple people would definitely help reduce the risk of burnout. That's especially true for YouTube, since producing video content can be a lot of work.

FWIW, when I briefly ran a YT channel for a charity fundraiser a few months back, I found that YouTube's Creator Academy had a lot of good advice on how to make videos that others want to watch and how to manage a channel that others want to follow. This video on fundamentals of a creative strategy was particularly helpful.

Since a few people mentioned building on top of Knossos, it would be fantastic to find a coder who's able and willing to commit to it.

I can provide some support and some bug fixes and maybe investigate how a feature could be implemented, but I can't take on anything bigger than that.

I can, however, try to recruit someone to join Knossos development and hopefully fill that role, and I can give them some guidance of the sort that Iss Mneur gave me when I took up wxLauncher. When I'm ready to go looking for someone, I'd definitely appreciate help with spreading the word, including perhaps on our social media channels?


EDIT: Oh, also, maybe it's time to remove the "HLP on IRC" submenu from the "HLP" menu on the top navbar?

EDIT 2: Similarly, probably best to remove "SCP Mantis" from the "Reporting Bugs" navbar menu, and just generally go through all the top navbar menus for obsolete links.

[karajorma]

Recruiting for Knossos isn't a bad idea. The skill set needed to work on it is quite different from that needed for FS2_Open.

[Strygon]

What's the required skill set in question if I may ask?

[karajorma]

I'm sure other members of the SCP can answer that one better than me. But I'd imagine that because the code base is much more modern and isn't held back by design decisions made 20 years ago it would be much easier to work with than FS2_Open.

Also, in the end, Knossos is just a application. There's no need to be familiar with how games work.

[Phantom Hoover]

What's the required skill set in question if I may ask?

Python and Javascript, at least for the client.

[jg18]

Yup and the Nebula server is PHP, which I have no experience with.

And yup it’s completely different from game coding like FSO. More like conventional client/Web server application programming,

ngld and I were talking the other day about how it’d be great if we could rewrite Knossos to use Electron, the technology that powers Discord, so then it could be 100% JavaScript, among other big benefits, but neither of us has the bandwidth for that.

[qazwsx]

Yup and the Nebula server is PHP, which I have no experience with.

https://github.com/ngld/fsnebula
It's python/flask isn't it?

[jg18]

Yup and the Nebula server is PHP, which I have no experience with.

https://github.com/ngld/fsnebula
It's python/flask isn't it?

Hmm, guess the one I was thinking of is now out-of-date: https://github.com/ngld/hlp-nebula

Well, one fewer language to deal with is a good thing.

And if Nebula is ever in need of a rewrite, might be worth considering node.js. Then, if we ever manage to switch Knossos to using Electron, we'll be down to just one programming language for Knossos/Nebula. That would sure be cool.

[caine440]

As someone very new to HLP I can only share my limited view point.
I do not get involved or read anything here that is not related to the game. All the other stuff is just noise to me and I have enough of that in real life.
This is an escape from all that for me.

One simple thing that I would love to see as a newbie is the Wiki Campaign list updated for all the campaigns so we know what is the best order to play them in and where they fit in the time line. It would be nice to show which are available on Knossos.

One thing I have experienced is how helpful everyone one is here. Anytime I had a problem with the learning curve or getting a campaign to run someone was here to walk me through it and get it all running.

I have had a great time playing since joining here.

Thanks

[Blue Lion]

I made the same argument years ago that is echoed by some people here. I am still for a promotion of Freespace and HLP on social media but we ran into roadblocks because no one really knew who "owned" HLP and what could be done from there. It kind of died after that.

[karajorma]

Do you have a link to that thread? I'd be interested in seeing what the roadblocks were before I stubble into them again.