[Fusion]

Would like to jump in that apparently the insanity which caused Mjn to leave the Discord also resulted in me being banned from said Discord. I’ve reached out to DahBlount and haven’t heard anything back one way or another. Have done nothing against the Discord rules, but I have a suspicion as to why I was banned - and if that suspicion is true, I’m extremely concerned that staff take the word of a certain person as gospel.

EDIT: Heard back from DahBlount. He still has no idea why I was banned or what’s going on with this. I’m even more concerned now.

[The E]

You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.

[Fusion]

You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.

And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?

[The E]

And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?

What Phantom has said has been corroborated by several other people, all of whom are individually trustworthy.
This isn't a case where one single statement (or even repeated statements) by one person, regardless of who they are, is enough evidence. But when multiple people make similar accusations and provide screencaps, then that is enough for me.

Secondly, when I tried to message you back, Discord told me that a message could not be delivered since you didn't accept messages from people who are not on your friends list, so I blocked you.

[Fusion]

And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?

What Phantom has said has been corroborated by several other people, all of whom are individually trustworthy.
This isn't a case where one single statement (or even repeated statements) by one person, regardless of who they are, is enough evidence. But when multiple people make similar accusations and provide screencaps, then that is enough for me.

Secondly, when I tried to message you back, Discord told me that a message could not be delivered since you didn't accept messages from people who are not on your friends list, so I blocked you.

I know who the individuals in question are. I understand they share certain similar political views and view certain jokes made in bad taste. Yes, I made politically insensitive comments well over a year and a half ago in order to deliberately rile up certain extremely sensitive users in a political channel that I left over a year ago. Said individuals(some of whom are online right now) have attempted to over the last year ensure I never do anything in the community again in a campaign of targeted harassment. The fact that these claims have been made to you only now when the community is riled up should be a clear sign there is insincerity and an agenda at work.

As for messaging me back - I know that’s not true because up to when I attempted to message you we were friends. I had added you on my new Discord same day I had made it and rejoined the community - was the only way I could have been able to message you as we weren’t in the same Discord. I attempted to message you after the fact, then checked and saw that you had unfriended me. Attempted to add you as a friend again and got the notification I couldn’t do so, indicating I had been blocked.

If it will unabashedly dispel these false claims about me, will go ahead and publicly state it here for the record - Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened. I believe Hitler actively engaged in a campaign of genocide against ethnic and religious Jews in Germany - Jews who just twenty years ago he had fought beside in the trenches of World War I - and allowed horrendous and egregious crimes against humanity to happen to them in an act of barbarism unparalleled. I pray that such an indication of the inherently evil nature of man never happens again, and actively disavow any suggestions that I support, praise, or otherwise hold a positive view of the Holocaust in any way, shape, or form.

I am extremely disappointed in the blatantly abusive moderation of the Discord, particularly the statement of the Discord owner to me in DMs that he has continually believed I have been a Nazi for years, has evidently tolerated it for this long, and only now has decided to ban me without any opportunity for me to be able to defend myself - additionally rejecting any defenses with “you’re still a Nazi.” I highly recommend a reevaluation of the Discord staff and potentially a complete refreshing of the Discord since I see no chance this will ever change.

[The E]

I know who the individuals in question are. I understand they share certain similar political views and view certain jokes made in bad taste. Yes, I made politically insensitive comments well over a year and a half ago in order to deliberately rile up certain extremely sensitive users in a political channel that I left over a year ago. Said individuals(some of whom are online right now) have attempted to over the last year ensure I never do anything in the community again in a campaign of targeted harassment. The fact that these claims have been made to you only now when the community is riled up should be a clear sign there is insincerity and an agenda at work.

Oh, so you were only jokingly making statements that are holocaust denial.

Great. That clears that right up.

You are staying banned. I do not give a **** whether someone makes statements like that in jest or in all seriousness. There are lines that should never, ever be crossed, and that is one of them.


Also, let me make something abundantly clear. I have been aware of these accusations for a long time. I haven't taken any action on them, or recommended that action be taken, because off-site behaviour is a tricky issue.
The discord moderation staff has recently made the decision that, in egregious cases like these, we will ban for offsite behaviour. Thus, you were banned.

[Fusion]

Also, let me make something abundantly clear. I have been aware of these accusations for a long time. I haven't taken any action on them, or recommended that action be taken, because off-site behaviour is a tricky issue.

The discord moderation staff has recently made the decision that, in egregious cases like these, we will ban for offsite behaviour. Thus, you were banned.

I admit to making insensitive comments over a year ago on a discord full of toxicity I left. I have not at any point on HLP’s discord or forum actively engaged in anything capable of being in any way construed as any sort of Holocaust denial, and in fact in the post you quoted have actively expounded my true and sincere beliefs regarding an act of genocidal moral depravity - while simultaneously condemning my prior insensitive comments. I have even condemned them on the very very rare occasion that said comments have ever been brought up, clarified they do not represent my views, and have stated similarly to the above my belief that the Holocaust happened and was a targeted attack on the Jews by the Nazi regime in Germany.

It is inappropriate, especially a year to a year and a half after said event has happened, to ban someone for, again, insensitive jokes made not even on the Discord itself, based on policy made through a moderation change not publicly announced, implemented with no warning, and with no indication for nearly 36 hours to the banned person why they were banned.

Additionally, the creation of a dichotomic system where the rules of punishment in this community are different depending on what service you’re using and who the head admin is is ridiculous and only further encourages the splintering of the community. Again, with a community that’s been through 5 presidents over a long enough span of time for its members to be born and potentially graduate from college, this needs to stop and we need to look more at coming together instead of devaluing words and actively seeking to purge the community of elements certain people view as unwanted. That sort of behavior inevitably leads to an unironically fascistic system where ever less deviant views from those of the staff result in people getting purged from the community - and with many friends in the community  who have a diverse array of views, I don’t want to see that happen personally.

EDIT: was additionally pointed out to me that this system of banning people for past sins doesn’t allow for growth of individual users past prior maladjusted behavior and more to overarching normalcy, but instead punishes them for past misdeeds instead of considering how they are functioning now. By this logic, even one single misdeed should be eternally held against someone regardless as to whether they have apologized for it, rejected it, and anathematized their past jokes - which would damn many people.

[MP-Ryan]

CORRECTION - This post content references a different user recently banned due to Holocaust denial.
-

I've seen the screenshots.  While the forum and the discord are managed slightly differently (due to the nature of the medium), the principles are the same, and if you had made similar comments on the forums in any capacity you would count yourself lucky not to have been banned on the spot.

Holocaust denial and minimization is unacceptable.  This is not a matter of difference of opinion, and I don't particularly care if you think this was nuanced or you think you have grown, nor do I particularly care whether you viewed it as a joke.  You made public comments that minimize one of the worst genocides in history, and the worst in modern memory, and you have now experienced consequences of that in a medium in which real-time moderation is difficult.  The fact that you have not been banned on the forums speaks more to that fact that many of us were originally unaware of these comments and that we can closely watch your posting behaviour here, which is far less transient.  I would urge you to take this as a lesson in social consequences of your actions and learn from it instead of rules lawyering, because if you prefer not to have fragmented participation in this community we can absolutely accommodate a ban from the forums as well if that's preferred.

[xenocartographer]

So, I have my own perspectives and biases on this issue. I'm operating with limited information. I believe my reasoning holds up based on the information available to me, but I like to believe I'm a rational person. I recognize that I'm speculating, so if there's any information that contradicts any of these points, please bring it up and I'll change my position.

That being said, based on what I do know, there's a lot about this that doesn't smell right to me. I'm going to dig into it and hope either party can provide some answers. First off, there's this exchange:

You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.

If it will unabashedly dispel these false claims about me, will go ahead and publicly state it here for the record - Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened. I believe Hitler actively engaged in a campaign of genocide against ethnic and religious Jews in Germany - Jews who just twenty years ago he had fought beside in the trenches of World War I - and allowed horrendous and egregious crimes against humanity to happen to them in an act of barbarism unparalleled. I pray that such an indication of the inherently evil nature of man never happens again, and actively disavow any suggestions that I support, praise, or otherwise hold a positive view of the Holocaust in any way, shape, or form.

Oh, so you were only jokingly making statements that are holocaust denial. Great. That clears that right up.

There's an issue here that has nothing to do with the ban, and Andreas was right to object to it. The E's first post all but calls Andreas a Holocaust denier, which is basically equivalent to calling him a card-carrying Neo-Nazi. It's a profoundly serious condemnation and should be treated as such. By Andreas' own admission, he made "insensitive jokes" for immature reasons. That isn't in dispute. But it is not equivalent to denying the Holocaust, as E implied. And even if Andreas had held that position at the time, he doesn't now. Either way, unless the situation is profoundly different than it seems, calling Andreas a "Holocaust denier" was inappropriate.

Secondly, there's E's claim to have blocked Andreas because they couldn't reply. On the surface, this doesn't really add up. Unless Andreas were spamming E, that isn't a particularly sensible reason to block him in the first place. But "friending" is mutual on Discord, and unless they were "friends" in the first place, Andreas shouldn't have been able to message E in the first place. Since both parties agree that Andreas messaged E after the ban, they must have been friends, so E should have been able to respond to Andreas. (Discord also allows DMs between people who have a server in common, whether or not they're friends, but if that were the case, E should still have been able to reply to Andreas.)

None of that's directly related to the ban. What is definitely related is how strangely this ban was handled. As far as I'm aware, no one was notified of the ban. I performed server-wide searches on Discord for "ban," "banned", "kick", "remove", "suspend", and even "hammer" and found no relevant results. Andreas was not notified of the ban - neither why he was banned nor even that he had been. But, most tellingly, he DM'd one of the other Discord moderators to ask if he had been, and that moderator didn't know.

Let that sink in a bit. A ban is the single strongest tool in a moderator's toolbox. They're compared to Mjolnir for a reason. For this other moderator to be unaware that the ban had happened implies that E invoked a moderator's strongest tool without seeking the consent of, nor even notifying, the other moderators. If E had even posted "I just banned Andreas" in some moderator-only server, then this other mod would have been aware. They would certainly have been aware if there were any discussion about it. That implies that The E performed the ban unilaterally and swept it under the rug.

Why?

Andreas has repeatedly stated that the comments he was banned for were made a year ago. So far, E hasn't denied that. That brings us to the heart of this case. If Andreas' behavior wasn't ban-worthy a year ago, and hasn't been ban-worthy in the mean time, where did this come from? So far, both parties have been content to leave unchallenged the narrative that Andreas' behavior has been fine since then. If that's the case, why ban him now?

What motivated a immediate, unilateral ban a year after the fact?


E, like I said above, I know I only have one side of the story. So far, I've tried to make it clear why the information that's available to me doesn't add up, but I know that's not all the information. If Andreas did or said something problematic recently, for example, that totally changes the picture. So, please, if you know anything like that, please share it.

[MP-Ryan]

CORRECTION - This post content references a different user recently banned due to Holocaust denial.
-

MageKing posted that the user MorGy was banned immediately after he did so and why.  If Andreas would like us to post the screenshots that led to this action, we can certainly accommodate that request, but I will caution that that places those screenshots fully in public domain and the Streisand Effect is a very real thing that he may not want to experience.  We will leave that up to him, however.

I can't speak to why DahBlount was unaware - it is possible he missed the staff discussion, which is not his fault as those chats tend to move quickly.

[xenocartographer]

So, this definitely feels like somewhere where there might be information I'm unaware of, and please do correct me if that's the case. How would you know if there was a staff discussion? You don't appear to be a Discord moderator, and Andreas wasn't banned from the forum.

Are these screenshots the ones from a year ago?

[MP-Ryan]

My apologies - I am informed the matter of Andreas is a separate one from the Holocaust-denying discord user I was referencing.  There are communication channels between the forum and Discord moderation staff (and some overlap), so we are privy to some of each others' discussion.

[xenocartographer]

Gotcha. Okay, that actually does go a long way towards clearing things up in my head, thank you!

[Fusion]

I've seen the screenshots.  While the forum and the discord are managed slightly differently (due to the nature of the medium), the principles are the same, and if you had made similar comments on the forums in any capacity you would count yourself lucky not to have been banned on the spot.

Holocaust denial and minimization is unacceptable.  This is not a matter of difference of opinion, and I don't particularly care if you think this was nuanced or you think you have grown, nor do I particularly care whether you viewed it as a joke.  You made public comments that minimize one of the worst genocides in history, and the worst in modern memory, and you have now experienced consequences of that in a medium in which real-time moderation is difficult.  The fact that you have not been banned on the forums speaks more to that fact that many of us were originally unaware of these comments and that we can closely watch your posting behaviour here, which is far less transient.  I would urge you to take this as a lesson in social consequences of your actions and learn from it instead of rules lawyering, because if you prefer not to have fragmented participation in this community we can absolutely accommodate a ban from the forums as well if that's preferred.

Indeed - if I had made comments here a year to a year and a half ago on the forum, I would have been banned. Same would have been justifiable if I had made such on the Discord directly. I didn't. I made both on a Discord that was neither the HLP Discord nor the forum. Again, this was a year to a year and a half ago(it's been long enough) - and as you yourself have said, "Discord feeds everyone's worst impulses," and "We aren't the thought police and I'm not about to start administering a personality test to prospective registrants," I have not made any similarly insensitive comments in the community in the entire time between when those comments were previously made and the present day - or in my time in the community for that matter.

Your unwillingness to even consider that I as an individual have grown and evolved from having been immature enough to flippantly make such comments is quite frankly a problem. It symbolizes quite plainly that people are irrevocably damned the moment they do something stupid and no period of time, even time in which the user has spent contributing to the community, is enough to redeem them. Ignorant of the fact that a Discord is only a semi-public place whose comments are visible solely to those who are in it - and thus is not truly "public" - what you have just said is that any user can hunt down prior comments of an abhorrent nature, joking, serious, or otherwise, and use them as a pretext to, regardless of time passed between said comments, get them banned from HLP for having said such. If anything, you've just created a call to arms certain users can and will use as an excuse to get other people in this community exiled.

As is, I prefer the 'fragmented participation' be unitary in that what happens outside HLP Discord and forums is irrelevant to what happens inside HLP Discord and forums, given that's been working for the FS2 community across the better part of two decades and hasn't caused us to catastrophically implode like countless other gaming communities that are half to a quarter of our age.

I'm confused, however - So was this MorGy guy banned from the HLP Discord for, in said Discord, having denied the holocaust? Because that's what I'm accused of having done and what I have blatantly repudiated in an earlier post, so not exactly sure what he was banned for aside from "being a Nazi," as MageKing said.

[Mito [PL]]

Just a quick notice, Rybak's previous post had an edit that happened after the post under it was written.


I feel obliged to mention that The E is deeply involved with a political agenda that seeks to outright remove all people who have shown the capacity to even remotely consider anything related to fascism from every single social circle they're capable of, and has proven that over and over in the HLP Discord, the forums and some private conversations. If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism". Given his personal affiliations he bragged about there, he's actually trying to make that happen, too.
Oh, also remember, superheroes are a deeply fascist concept.

(Rybak, be on the lookout in case an angry German decided to visit you in some dark alley with a baseball bat twenty years into the future)

Because the eternal march to eradicate fascism knows no boundaries, understands no mercy and cares not for collateral damage or the chance for redemption. And at some point, it becomes its own flavour of fascism.


Add to that the latest unspoken agreement that members of the HLP Discord are free to verbally abuse others in a manner very resembling some aspects of domestic violence because of some very arbitrary and unimportant misdemeanors (that I believe I have explained my stance on multiple times, and I think it to be a bit related to people becoming very stubborn with some strange or unacceptable beliefs), and the Hard Light Productions Discord server becomes a quite toxic place.

Edit: speaking of - when do the contents of private messages become ground for bans? I just can't wait!

[Mongoose]

Mito, I suggest you remove yourself from this conversation, as your contribution to it is neither productive nor helpful. There is more than enough drama flying around without actively adding to it.

(Also, just for the record, The E was not the one who issued this ban in the first place.)

[Fusion]

Mito, I suggest you remove yourself from this conversation, as your contribution to it is neither productive nor helpful. There is more than enough drama flying around without actively adding to it.

I admittedly have to disagree, as Mito was from my recollection one of the individuals in the Discord in question where the screenshots of my inappropriate comments were made and, from my recollection, was the owner of said server at that point in time.

[Mongoose]

Edit: speaking of - when do the contents of private messages become ground for bans? I just can't wait!

If a PM on HLP contains objectionable content, then it can absolutely be grounds for a ban. The same would be true if someone abused another member via an off-site method. That should go without saying.

[Mongoose]

Pardon the double-post:

I admittedly have to disagree, as Mito was from my recollection one of the individuals in the Discord in question where the screenshots of my inappropriate comments were made and, from my recollection, was the owner of said server at that point in time.

He's attempting to stir up **** solely for its own sake, so no, the fact that he was present at the time does not make his post any more welcome. If he had chosen to contribute in a rational manner, that would be a different story.

[General Battuta]

OP, serious question. What is your opinion of The Turner Diaries? I have a hard time believing that someone in deep enough to read and recommend The Turner Diaries would be able to make a full turnaround in a year. I guess it is possible, but I, personally...I dunno, I guess it just gives me bad vibes.

I understand the concerns about eternal damnation for temporary sins. But I do also think that it's right to draw a hard line around certain behavior, and distributing Turner Diaries bootlegs is in the camp of full-on advocacy and evangelism for anti-Semitism.

For whatever it's worth I do think it is good that you have publicly repudiated Holocaust denial.