[Black Sheep]

I'm practising Judo since '94 (1. kyo, was too lazy to go for a dan up to now) and work as a trainer here and there. Sometimes we had some excursions into aikido (or however it is written) and other arts, but still...

...when you're facing an enemy...eye to eye...take a long breath...focus....and run away

BTW...arm locks and such are interesting...but strangles are much cooler

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Shrike
And that is why Evil will always win.  Because Good is dumb!

Meh - you'd love it here in Israel. The percentage of armed civillians here is probably around 15-20% - and they don't leave their weaps at home, mind you!

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by Sandwich

percentage of armed civillians here is probably around 15-20% - and they don't leave their weaps at home, mind you!

Well, they have a reason for that...

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Knight Templar


The one with the foot on the other guys bum or the dude throwin the punch ?

that's a crescent kick being used

he punched and i pull his punch, therefore pulling the asian guy on the left toward me, and then use a crescent kick to knock him off-balance

it's fun :0

[Martinus]

Hmmm I'm not really a fan of kicks above the waistline, you're very open if you miss. I mostly go with fast, close quarters work, I'm not very strong but I'm pretty fast and I've got good coordination. I always thought that tae kwon do and other kicking orientated martial arts were cool to watch but I don't really have the flexibility for that sort of thing and I doubt I have the strength for half of those mental wushu combat-acrobatics moves.

I still think you see the whole internal/external thing as black and white Stealth, a lot of hard styles incorporate some basic internal techniques, wing chun for instance has qigong (pronounced chi-gung) elements. Don't automatically think a style is only hard or soft, the great variety of martial artists I've spoken to over the years give a good indication that there are a lot of shades of grey between black and white.

I think I'm starting to get a little too abstract here. ^_^

[White Tiger]

The definition of Internal and External styles has been bastardized in the last 70 years.
 An internal system doesn’t mean "soft". Its actually is a geographical and political distinction.
 The Shaolin Arts art based on Buddhist teachings...which is an external philosophy. Daoism was developed in China in the internal provinces of China.
Essentially THAT is the true nature of internal and external.
 many arts are both Hard and soft in the Modern sense...but not by the original definition.
 There are very few that are both...and that was due purely for survival. Five survivors of the destruction of the southern temple cast of their Buddhist robes and hid in robes as Daoist monks. They learned and accepted the Daoist teachings as their own and eventually applied it to their arts as well. Thus creating the only systems that were Geographically and politically  
internal and External.

 Wing Chun was made famous by a young woman of the same name. She was taught by one of the 5 Survivor. The shoalin priestess Ng Mui. Wing Chun is a style not a system. It was developed for ease of learning...that way the common person could learn it in a limited amount of time and begun to cast out the Manchu invaders. Qi Gong can be prenounced both Chi(Chee) an Qi(key).


uuuuuummmm.sorry for the long post.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by White Tiger
The definition of Internal and External styles has been bastardized in the last 70 years.
 An internal system doesn’t mean "soft". Its actually is a geographical and political distinction.
 The Shaolin Arts art based on Buddhist teachings...which is an external philosophy. Daoism was developed in China in the internal provinces of China.
Essentially THAT is the true nature of internal and external.
 many arts are both Hard and soft in the Modern sense...but not by the original definition.
 There are very few that are both...and that was due purely for survival. Five survivors of the destruction of the southern temple cast of their Buddhist robes and hid in robes as Daoist monks. They learned and accepted the Daoist teachings as their own and eventually applied it to their arts as well. Thus creating the only systems that were Geographically and politically  
internal and External.


uuuuuummmm.sorry for the long post.

So how would you categorise taiji, paqua and xingyi?

[White Tiger]

They are Taoist...so ....what would they be then?
They are Internal. (I'm uncertain of the last art you quoted...do you mean Hsing I?)

[Martinus]

Originally posted by White Tiger
They are Taoist...so ....what would they be then?
They are Internal. (I'm uncertain of the last art you quoted...do you mean Hsing I?)

Yeah xingyi or Hsing-I.

Are you saying that the arts are founded upon religious ideals or merely that they conform to religious ideals?

[White Tiger]

I'm saying that he definition of Internal and External are based both on  Political(or religious teachings) and Geograhical boundaries.

[Carl]

or you can buy a gun.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by White Tiger
uuuuuummmm.sorry for the long post.

You should see some of the posts CP5670 and Levyathan made in some of the more active topics a month ago.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by White Tiger
I'm saying that he definition of Internal and External are based both on  Political(or religious teachings) and Geograhical boundaries.

Is this proven? I've always found it hard to get good reading material on the subject of origins and influences as far as chinese martial arts go. What little I have been able to get often conflicts with other sources.

The origin of wing chun for instance is now thought to be largely fabricated as the shaolin didn't have female practitioners at the time.

[White Tiger]

The definition is universal in the Chinese sense.
 As I said the most recent definition is what many believe what Internal and External is. Its not what Internal and External is truly based on..
 As for there being no female practitioners....thats quite false actually. Ng Mui was actually quite famous...she created Plum Flower Fist and co-created Hung Gar. There is no Debate concerning Ng Mui as far as I understand. Thats like saying Gee Shim Sim See never existed....yet he saved the Northern teachings of Kung Fu. If It wasn't for him Eagle Claw, Hung gar and many other styles would have never been inspired.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by White Tiger
The definition is universal in the Chinese sense.
 As I said the most recent definition is what many believe what Internal and External is. Its not what Internal and External is truly based on..
 As for there being no female practitioners....thats quite false actually. Ng Mui was actually quite famous...she created Plum Flower Fist and co-created Hung Gar. There is no Debate concerning Ng Mui as far as I understand. Thats like saying Gee Shim Sim See never existed....yet he saved the Northern teachings of Kung Fu. If It wasn't for him Eagle Claw, Hung gar and many other styles would have never been inspired.

The question of Ng Mui's existance is not the issue, from what I remember reading wing chun was created at a time where women were not practising at Shaolin and so the true history is though to be different.

As I said though a lot of the sources conflict so I may just be chasing shadows, it's somewhat difficult to verify as a lot of martial arts theory and practise is passed down by word of mouth, one of the hinderances of some of the styles being so secretive I guess.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Maeglamor
Hmmm I'm not really a fan of kicks above the waistline, you're very open if you miss.  

That's why i quit Tae-Kwon-Do, because of that very reason, and it's not realistic!

but i was just demonstrating something to this guy, i wasn't fighting him

You're very right Maeglamor, and i agree 100% with you.  It's true that most if not all martial arts have some internal and vice-versa.  BUT just because they have a little internal does NOT mean that they're classified an internal art!  I don't care if you say Hung Gar kung fu has internal, that doesn't mean that it's internal!  That's what makes Taiji, Pa Kua, and YsingI so different.  Look at how they're practiced, and look at any/all other martial arts.  They're different... very obviously different, and that's what makes the difference between external and internal!

I don't think it should have anything to do with the origin of the art, it should be how the art is practiced.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Maeglamor


I think I'm starting to get a little too abstract here. ^_^

not at all!  I believe 100% what you do

[White Tiger]

Tai Chi is purely Taoist
Baqua Is Pure Taoist
Hsing I Is purely Taoist
Qi Gong is both (With Daoist roots)
Bak Fu is Both (By universal definition)
Bak Mei is both
Supt Bat Moh Jung Pai is Taoist (internal)
 Almost all other arts are external politically, religiously, geographically and philosophically.
 Definitions of what is Internal and external have been established 1500 years before you were born at the arrival of Bohdiharma into China. The modern definition (thats the last 70 years) when someone speaks about an internal art they refer to the practise of the mind and spirit. That is not the proper definition.
 Baqua has fast hand and stepping forms that Tai Chi does not. Same with Hsing I. Yet they are internal.
 Because of their origin. Nothing more.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by White Tiger

 Baqua has fast hand and stepping forms that Tai Chi does not. Same with Hsing I. Yet they are internal.
 Because of their origin. Nothing more.

have you ever watched bagua or tai chi being practiced?  the movements are slow and smooth.  however, look at tai chi.  said to be the mother of internal, when used in combat, the movements are not slow and smooth as practiced, they're executed in a hard and fast way... thus it has a bit of external, but it is MAINLY an internal art

[White Tiger]

OK...your using the Novice term of Internal and external....thats not the Actual Definition.

Baqua DOES have fast hand forms(not like Kempo or Karate)

Internal does not mean spiritual or soft.

To be more accurate its best to say "Hard and Soft".  

Bak Fu Pai
Bak Mei Pai
Baqua
Tai Chi
Hsing I
Supt bat Moh Jung Pai
Are "soft" arts
and Internal (by official definition)

Kempo
Karate
Tae Kwon Doe
Judo
Northern Kung Fu
Wushu
Are "Hard" arts
and external (by official definition)

I have trained and competed with Baqua and Tai Chi practitioners. 2 of my Best friend that I have trained with are proficient in both arts. For 2 years we trained together and compared and learned from each other. Thats actually How I know about both. Yang Tai Chis long Form is considered a fast Hand form and can be displayed as such.
 Hsing I I have the least knowledge on.