Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 102273 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
On the other hand, Star Citizen has no such pressure and thus it can take its time to really blossom without cutting too many features and actually do things right. Even if it means it will take 5 years instead of 2 and cost over $100 million instead of $20 million. As I said, people did not pledge for Star Citizen to be yet another space sim like all the other such games. They pledged for this game to push certain boundaries.
That many people are trying to get refunds (so many that CIG is now refusing to give them) makes it pretty obvious that this isn't a universally agreed-upon thing.  Maybe you should stop trying to speak for everyone?

Speaking for myself, I was far, far more excited about SC when it was less ambitious and more achievable.  I don't want a dream.  I don't want a movie.  I want a game.

Quote
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.
So what AAA games have you worked on?

Quote
Star Citizen as currently envisioned is ambitious but doable.
Doable?  Probably.  Doable by CIG?  No.  This sort of ambition requires competent management and an extremely clear idea of what the game is supposed to be, and CIG do not have either of these things.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 08:10:51 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.
All the time and money in the universe won't save SC as long as they don't have organisation, make ****ty gameplay design choices and have horrendous management. Those are the real problems, and I can only observe that you keep avoiding them, just like CIG and SC fans always keep avoiding the real issues.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline The E

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.

Yes, those evil producers that force the developers to cut features and ship games, they certainly are a scourge of the industry. How dare they demand a return on their investment! The sheer nerve!

Yeah, it's much better to not have investors but believers. Believers, after all, do not need to see milestones reached, deadlines fulfilled or products shipped; it's much easier to develop games when noone asks for such silly things.
**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Personally I think it's telling that many of the lasting classics of video games were developed under harsh limitations, and often being freed from those limits ended up in crazy overreach that smacked hard into the new limits and produced a much more flawed product. And SC has budgetary limits, this funding well will eventually find a bottom. What happens if SC needs 10 years of this and only gets 8? Do you think the half finished compromise you get then will be worth the hundreds or thousands of dollars people have paid for it?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I have worked AAA development. Feature creep is a far bigger problem there, and they are much more strict about staying on scope and cutting features than any mod.

Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.

Bigger budget than Star Citizen, more time, no publisher pressure, and creative carte Blanche.

You are doubly ignorant, and you are persistently ignorant of expertise on nearly every topic you try to engage with. You contribute nothing except for a chance for others to learn when you're corrected.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Just a warning to keep it civil please.

Battuta, this isn't directed at you, or at anyone in particular. This thread is amusing so I'd like to keep it open, just please remember that there are people on the other side of the screen. :)

Cheers!

 

Offline Kobrar44

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen

Besides, its not like Star Citizen ignores the dangers of feature creep. It is why stretch goals ended at $65 million and for example procedural planets were not included in initial release. Star Citizen as currently envisioned is ambitious but doable. It just cannot be rushed.

Just to clarify, Star Citizen never released. I will elaborate in a bit on that.

2016 is going to be a big year for SC. With the release of 2.0 there are no longer separate modules and the basic engine is almost done, not the focus will be on adding content and features on top of it and bug fixing. You just wait..  :yes:

See, what you call 2.0 I would rather call 0.2. It is a product that is not complete yet. A preview, not a release. What do I mean by complete? And what do I call a release?
I support and love to death a in-the-making game called Factorio [if you by any chance enjoy creating systems that work on their own, with a little bit of survival and exploration, totally check this out]. It is not a finished product right not. It is currenty in version 0.12. I am following it since 0.9. For this entire period of time, with every release, it has been a complete project. Not a finished one, but complete. Resource gathering, tech proression, base building, logistics, fight mechanics, endgame goal, they were all there, fully functional and allowed for intended-scale gameplay. I've spent like 90+ hours on 0.9 release, and had a very satisfying and stable experience. A complete single-player experience. Obviously not finished, but honestly they could just release it as a full, but smaller, game right there. Now contrast it to what SC is right now. They couldn't possibly release it now. It is not playable. It is a preview. Not saying you can't have fun with it, it's just that it is nowhere near being acceptable as a product. So lets stop calling it a "release" and lets call it a "preview" instead.
Oh guys, use that [ url ][ img ][ /img ][ /url ] :/

 

Offline Akalabeth Angel

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible. And thats one reason why there is so little advances in AAA gameplay and modern AAA games are mostly rehashed clones of a genre archetype with better graphics. Id rather have SC to try to be more than that, and even fail than end up like that.

What gameplay is Star Citizen advancing? It's just one game with multiple game types. It's not revolutionizing gameplay, nor even evolving it, it's simply putting multiple game types together.

Further developers aren't pressured to release half-baked games ASAP.
They're pressured to release complete games on deadline.

The problem with SC, is that the idea of a complete game is ever evolving and they have no deadline.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 12:43:13 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Bryan See

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
What gameplay is Star Citizen advancing? It's just one game with multiple game types. It's not revolutionizing gameplay, nor even evolving it, it's simply putting multiple game types together.

Further developers aren't pressured to release half-baked games ASAP.
They're pressured to release complete games on deadline.

The problem with SC, is that the idea of a complete game is ever evolving and they have no deadline.
Just like open source games, in this case here, FSO.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Again, as pointed out before, that's a false equivalency.  FSO isn't a commercial product.  No one pays or is paid to develop it.

To quote Battuta:
Apples and pre-ordered pictures of oranges.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Just like open source games, in this case here, FSO.
No, FSO is about upgrades and improvement upon an existing functional game. SC doesn't have anything remotely close to a functional game, and I doubt it ever will.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

  

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
See, what you call 2.0 I would rather call 0.2. It is a product that is not complete yet. A preview, not a release. What do I mean by complete? And what do I call a release?
I support and love to death a in-the-making game called Factorio [if you by any chance enjoy creating systems that work on their own, with a little bit of survival and exploration, totally check this out]. It is not a finished product right not. It is currenty in version 0.12. I am following it since 0.9. For this entire period of time, with every release, it has been a complete project.

It is called Star Citizen Alpha 2.0. That is below Star Citizen 1.0. It is not complete yet, nor does it aspire to be.

And I fail to see this need to release something complete when the development is still ongoing. Why do you complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only less than 3 years of development?

Vast majority of games do not release anything to the public until the game is more or less done.

And entitled gamers like this (no offense) are the reason why.

Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it. Star Citizen does release playable content, but at the same time SC makes it clear that it is heavily WIP, incomplete and buggy. Thats how you do it, the best of both worlds. Too much stability too early is an enemy of effective development.


Do you think SC is not being developed well? Fine, only higher ups ultimately know the truth about that, and we will see sooner or later what the end result is. But complaining that they have not released the game yet just makes you look like you are being impatient and ignorant of game development. They can take their time. There is no need to rush at all.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 05:10:14 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline The E

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
It is called Star Citizen Alpha 2.0. That is below Star Citizen 1.0. It is not complete yet, nor does it aspire to be.

And I fail to see this need to release something complete when the development is still ongoing. Why do you complain that Star Citizen is not a complete game yet, after only less than 3 years of development?

First of all, because the vast majority of commercially released games took less than 3 years and less than 100 million USD to complete. This is our complaint 1: Because the scope has increased immensely over the years, there was never any chance of them nailing down even a single core mechanic. The Arena Commander release should have been the endpoint of getting the flight dynamics done, not its beginning, to pick one example.
2: We know that getting a 40 mission single player game takes about 3 years to develop from scratch, and that doing so would have solved a lot of problems SC currently has. This is complaint 2: Roberts' priorities seem to be to get as much of the game done at once, when it would be more prudent to fully finish one or two aspects of it for a release and then build on it. Elite follows this approach, and as a result, it's far more successful than SC (Seriously, Elite sold a million copies last year.)
3: SC's business model is atrocious. It combines the worst aspects of kickstarter and F2P culture (From kickstarter, exploiting people's willingness to buy into a promise, from F2P, the overt reliance on a small number of whales to bring in the dough), and as a result, you have a community of useful idiots who are acting like a publisher except without the ability to exert influence over the development of the product that publishers normally have. This is complaint 3: SC's business model is built on continually promising development; actual delivery of things is actively harmful to the business model.

Quote
Vast majority of games do not release anything to the public until the game is more or less done.

And entitled gamers like this (no offense) are the reason why.

You seem to believe that putting out horrifically buggy pieces of **** is good development practice. It isn't.

Quote
Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad. You risk ending up like Elite or Minecraft or multitude of other modern games with open development model that are perpetually stuck in mediocrity. A game that is "finished", stable, yet shallow and the devs are afraid to touch it. Star Citizen does release playable content, but at the same time SC makes it clear that it is heavily WIP, incomplete and buggy. Thats how you do it, the best of both worlds. Too much stability too early is an enemy of effective development.

And while SC is doing this, they're continually putting their ability to pull off the full game they have promised into question. Every single thing they've released so far has put their technical skills into question. The game should be getting better. It isn't. With every release, they're just increasing bug counts.


Quote
Do you think SC is not being developed well? Fine, only higher ups ultimately know the truth about that, and we will see sooner or later what the end result is. But complaining that they have not released the game yet just makes you look like you are being impatient and ignorant of game development. They can take their time. There is no need to rush at all.

Again: The SC backers are performing one part of what a publisher normally does, but are not afforded any of the priviledges publishers normally have. We do not have any veto right over management decisions. We do not have sign-off on features. We do not have insight into detailed project progress. Just like people generally misinterpret the work editors and publishers do in the literary world, gamers generally misunderstand the role of publishers; While they can be toxic, they more often than not are crucial to getting a game to a releasable state.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Releasing a "finished" product restricts further game development because you have to keep in mind to not break the game for the players and to support the product. It is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.
I didn't think one could die of laughter. I came pretty close today.

EDIT: you'll note how I said in my previous post functional, as opposed to finished. For example, BP: AoA in 2009 was a functional release. BP as a whole is still not finished.

Nothing SC has given us was even remotely functional. It's a buggy mess that only gets worse as time goes.



But none of this diminishes the hilariousness of saying finishing products is bad.

At least you're not denying that SC is a horrendous buggy mess, so I guess we're making some sort of progress here.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 09:34:49 am by MatthTheGeek »
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Because they are being pressured by the publisher or lack of money to release a half baked game as soon as possible.

No.

Quite the opposite.

You've got the entire process of the enemies of feature creep backwards.

The primary obstacle to going absolutely bat**** insane for a little developer, like us, is that we don't have the resources. Short of total self-delusion, it's difficult for us to do so, because we need only look around our little hovels on the internet to return to reality. There are things beyond our power. It's obvious.

For a man in an office controlling legions of coders and artists who cater to their every whim, who when they tell the peons to make something happen then it happens, there is no obstacle to going bug**** insane save those they impose on themselves culturally. Big productions must hate feature creep as they hate pain, fear, and budget cuts, because that hatred is their only defense. There's no obvious limits on what they can do to return them to reality before the creditors show up and take everything.

Battuta was a part of Destiny, one of the largest game productions in the last decade, and one of the most troubled, and is here laying the law, and you're over here with a mentality that suggests you've never even been a beta or alpha tester for a serious project acting like you know ****. Sit down and shut up.
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Offline The E

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Exactly. Question one in any normal software project is "Can we afford to spend time and money on a feature?". Sometimes, the answer is "Yes, because we must." Sometimes, the answer is "Yes, we can afford to, but we don't need to." And sometimes, the answer is "No, not without compromising on other important things."

For Star Citizen, and the useful idiots who continue to throw money into this bottomless pit, the answer is always the first one. This is not a recipe for a good game. It wasn't for Daikatana, it wasn't for Duke Nukem Forever, it won't be for SC.

maslo, the people in this forum have worked on games, as amateurs and professionals in some cases, or on software projects, or on similar endeavours. Some of us have even had the misfortune of having experienced SC-style mismanagement ourselves, or have through inexperience caused these issues ourselves. You keep claiming this is a case of us being impatient. No. This is us seeing parallels to projects that have failed, in some cases spectacularly so, and us being exasperated about the true believers like you who seem willfully ignorant of what is going on.
**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I never thought so many people would so enjoy arguing about whether a video game will be good or bad that they'd actually want to keep doing it for what looks like hundreds of posts. :eek2:

I think it's kinda funny... but not in a bad way, of course! Please continue. :D

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I never thought so many people would so enjoy arguing about whether a video game will be good or bad that they'd actually want to keep doing it for what looks like hundreds of posts. :eek2:

I think it's kinda funny... but not in a bad way, of course! Please continue. :D

Word.


 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Part of me dislikes the notion that people spend so much time on a game that has not been released yet, but I must admit it has entertainment value.