[An4ximandros]

Now there's an idea...

[General Battuta]

Yeah, it was something that came up a lot in discussion in years past. In general I think it's dramatically unsatisfying.

[Flipside]

The Lucifer is a real blip in the storyline, it's a design old enough to have fought the Ancients, and the only Shivan capship that is shielded, which may prove a weakness in Subspace, but surely that would be outweighed by the tactical advantage it would give in-system? Also, the Lucifer was a directly aggressive foe, whereas in FS2, the GTVA were treated more as an annoyance that a tactical target to be neutralized.

I've sometimes wondered if the Shivans are almost 'reflections' of those they are fighting, and the Lucifer was a leftover from the wars with the Ancients, so it's a completely different kind of Shivan to the kind that we encounter.

[General Battuta]

The Lucifer is a real blip in the storyline, it's a design old enough to have fought the Ancients, and the only Shivan capship that is shielded, which may prove a weakness in Subspace, but surely that would be outweighed by the tactical advantage it would give in-system? Also, the Lucifer was a directly aggressive foe, whereas in FS2, the GTVA were treated more as an annoyance that a tactical target to be neutralized.

I've sometimes wondered if the Shivans are almost 'reflections' of those they are fighting, and the Lucifer was a leftover from the wars with the Ancients, so it's a completely different kind of Shivan to the kind that we encounter.

Totipotent threat response agency prioritized. Reactivate dormant cull component

[Mongoose]

I always did like the idea that the Lucifer fleet were cut off from their return to Shivan-held space by the Ancients deactivating the Knossos in Gamma Draconis, and so parked themselves in a random corner of space in some sort of hibernation state, only to be awoken by something (GTI activity perhaps, if you follow the ST:R train of thought) several thousand years later.  By that narrative, the Shivans encountered in FS2 would be a completely-separate entity, with their own purpose, which I think matches with what we see in the games.

[starbug]

As others  have said lucifer  and the sath's different purposes,  lucifer and its fleet looked for homeworlds and wiped them out, the supporting fleet was also very aggressive,  taking multiple systems in fs1 before Lucy shows up, now in fs2 the shivan fleet never goes by capella,  all the sath head to the capella star and pretty much ignore everything else unless challenged. FS2 the gtva is more aggressive and the shivans just seem to be responding to that. Ie ravana only shows up after hunting the cruisers. Were as in FS1 the shivans are far more aggresive. We also have the fact the shivans in fs1 are more hive minded, destruction of the lucifer proves this. So it is a tough one

[starbug]

Also the lucifer seems to more suited for extermination /warship than the sath, as the juggernaut seems  only suited for blowing up stars for building hyper galactic bypass. Despite its size can you really class the sath as a warship jugger? Not really it only has 4 front beam turrets with are not to tough, take those out and its a sitting duck. Lucifer has its front flux cannons and its side planet glassing weapons. Also there could be more lucifer class roaming out there, galaxy is a big place with the shivans never assume, just because we encountered only one doesnt  mean its the only one

[Lorric]

If the Shivans in FS1 were a separate entity from the Shivans in FS2, which would also explain the differences in technology between the two groups of Shivans, then there's room for the potential for a misunderstanding on the part of the FS2 Shivans. From their point of view, the GTVA could well look like a powerful and mysterious aggressor force invading their territory and outperforming their standard fighters and capital ships. When they escalated the situation by bringing in the Ravana, the GTVA matched it and destroyed the Ravana. When the Shivans escalated things further by bringing in the Sathanas, the GTVA again matched it and destroyed the Sathanas. The Shivans didn't know we only had one Colossus, and with them having dozens of Sathanas juggernauts, why would they have any cause to believe we only had one? All they know is any escalation of hostilities has been met, like two poker players raising each other. That their opponent believed they were strong enough to actually attack the Shivans and had met and defeated everything the Shivans had thrown at them. And so the Shivans, intimidated, not wanting to risk another escalation of the conflict similarly being raised by the GTVA, folded. They destroyed the Capella Star, cutting their losses and ending the conflict.

[Flipside]

I've always liked the analogy of the Shivans being like antibodies, flooding and sterilizing 'wounded' parts of Subspace, the Lucifer would be like a targetted white blood cell, it 'evolved' during the war with the Ancients (which seems to be far wider spread and drawn out than the Terran experiences with the Shivans) specifically to deal with that threat. When the Lucifer was reactivated, it continued on the only task it was built for, finding the centers of infection and sterilizing them.

The second reaction of the Shivans is sort of like cauterization, if the antibody designed to fight the problem does not succeed (because it's a different problem, but do the Shivans know that?) a certain level of triage is required.

[Lorric]

Isn't it amazing how many different and compelling ideas for the Shivans we can all come up with? And it all just enhances the mystique further.

[qwadtep]

Then again, what really probably stirred the bee's nest was project ETAC. Actively moving into shivan space with a "Here we are guys" beacon probably isn't good.

Perhaps partially, but the Shivans did take Bosch and his inner circle rather than killing them, so I don't know.

You're right that the Shivans are reacting to a GTVA invasion of Shivan space, though; the nebula campaign is an escalation from corvette to destroyer, from destroyer to juggernaut, from juggernaut to juggernaut fleet.

[Kie99]

In Freespace 2 the Shivans were coming through a bottleneck, they had to go from the nebula to the largely empty Gamma Draconis, and from Gamma Draconis to Capella.  They had no other known routes into GTVA space.  If they'd tried to get a Lucifier from Gamma Draconis to Capella at any point, or from the nebula to Gamma Draconis after the first Knossos was destroyed, and the GTVA had successfully taken it out - something they'd shown they had the capability to do - any remaining Shivans in GTVA space would have been cut off from the rest of their armada, and it would have been a simple mop up job for the Colossus.

The Lucifer's vulnerability in the reactors, the side effects of its destruction in subspace and the imperative it creates to kill it in subspace make it a liability against any enemy that knows how to beat it.

[starbug]

I always find it amazing that the shivans are really listed in top 10 scifi lists as out of the majority of alien races they are still vastly unknown and have unknown motives and are just awesome. Just wish we could of found out what the bigger problem that the shivans where symptoms of, but then im also glad that we still know basically nothing about the shivans and it make them all the more terrifying

[Lorric]

I always find it amazing that the shivans are really listed in top 10 scifi lists as out of the majority of alien races they are still vastly unknown and have unknown motives and are just awesome. Just wish we could of found out what the bigger problem that the shivans where symptoms of, but then im also glad that we still know basically nothing about the shivans and it make them all the more terrifying

It's a real trade of. While we'll probably never know the truth, what it does do is allow a great deal of narrative license to campaign creators in where to move their stories. And there are so many different and compelling stories to tell...

As much as I'd love to know all there is to know about the Shivans, this community would probably be worse off if we did know. There'd be a lot less narrative license, and the Shivans might well not be anything like as compelling.

[Luis Dias]

I always find it amazing that the shivans are really listed in top 10 scifi lists as out of the majority of alien races they are still vastly unknown and have unknown motives and are just awesome.

citation needed?

[bigchunk1]

The Shivans are monsters. Unexplained aliens, foreign monsters. The unknown is like darkness, scary and uncertain.

Isn't it amazing how many different and compelling ideas for the Shivans we can all come up with? And it all just enhances the mystique further.

I'm pretty amazed by this thread as well. You all have pretty interesting theories. I like the idea of an isolated Lucifer fleet. It explains a lot of things. I'm looking forward to blue planet's take on shivans too.

I forgot about the shivan's interest in subspace to the exclusion of most everything else. It was present in both games.

I don't think it was ever explained if a Sathanas could destroy a planet or not. My guess was that it could, heck I thought a Ravana or a Demon could, but that's just a guess.

[IcemanFreespace]

If the Shivans in FS1 were a separate entity from the Shivans in FS2, which would also explain the differences in technology between the two groups of Shivans, then there's room for the potential for a misunderstanding on the part of the FS2 Shivans. From their point of view, the GTVA could well look like a powerful and mysterious aggressor force invading their territory and outperforming their standard fighters and capital ships. When they escalated the situation by bringing in the Ravana, the GTVA matched it and destroyed the Ravana. When the Shivans escalated things further by bringing in the Sathanas, the GTVA again matched it and destroyed the Sathanas. The Shivans didn't know we only had one Colossus, and with them having dozens of Sathanas juggernauts, why would they have any cause to believe we only had one? All they know is any escalation of hostilities has been met, like two poker players raising each other. That their opponent believed they were strong enough to actually attack the Shivans and had met and defeated everything the Shivans had thrown at them. And so the Shivans, intimidated, not wanting to risk another escalation of the conflict similarly being raised by the GTVA, folded. They destroyed the Capella Star, cutting their losses and ending the conflict.

This was a lot of fun to read. I like it because it assumes regular warfare instead of, perhaps more 'blue planet' like, higher and unknown motives of an all-knowing all-capable race. Although these are not out of the question because of fs1 events and Admiral Petrarch's monologue at the end of fs2. Anyway, them being evil is not a satisfying explanation. Ruthless, yes. Uncompromising, sure. All in all, can't wait for bp to shed some light.

[General Battuta]

The BP explanation is almost the opposite of 'higher and unknown motives of an all-knowing and all-capable race,' though. And I don't know what you guys are waiting for when you say you can't wait - BP already dropped a huge amount of info on the Shivans.

One of the driving creative forces there was the belief that most Shivan theories are way too anthropomorphic. There are a lot of ideas here in this thread, many of them great, but they tend to fall in a narrow range of assumptions about cognitive architecture and information handling. There's an invisible box around the way we think about thinking and it's hard to get out.

[Luis Dias]

I also find it staggeringly ridiculous a narrative of having the Shivans being scared of the GTVA and "folding" the hand, when all the tactical signs point to the simple fact that these species simply have no hand against them. It would also paint them as absolute cowards, I mean come on.

The very point of having the Shivans' objective be towards the Capella star and not against the Terrans / Vasudans is made precisely to avoid the contradiction of having an unbeatable species being "beaten" by the GTVA at the end of the game, or alternatively, have the GTVA being absolutely demolished by them (not good for the gamer morale... a contradiction that Mass Effect failed to solve I'd say).

Thus they were written like the aliens in Rama, or any other Lovecraftian species, wherein we are only saved because we were not in their target. The giant mammoth steps on some of us (ants) but the "ant colony" is saved because the mammoth is just interested in going towards the lake to drink some water. This is the only kind of narrative that is able to "save" the humans while allowing the Shivans all their might, all their terror and all their alien nature.

From a pscyhological point of view, this is the arc of a brash teenager meeting a really tough challenge from Nature, ever becoming greater in peril, but always confident he will be able to achieve success, then a harsh realization that such challenge is waaay over his head, that Nature is waaay more cruel and tough than the brat could even dream of, and then be saved by mere contingency, out of his control. A lesson of adulthood, if there is one.

[Lorric]

I also find it staggeringly ridiculous a narrative of having the Shivans being scared of the GTVA and "folding" the hand, when all the tactical signs point to the simple fact that these species simply have no hand against them. It would also paint them as absolute cowards, I mean come on.

Well it only works at all if the Shivans in FS1 are a separate entity. If not, then the Shivans know too much about the GTVA for it to happen.

It could also be the Shivans are too busy with something else, so just nova the Capella Star to get rid of the thorn in their behind.

I do think there's some merit to my idea though given how the Shivans respond to the GTVA. If you just think about it with the caveat that these Shivans don't know anything about the GTVA, it could make sense. They're cautious, as if they don't know what they're dealing with. And they lose most of their battles. We know a handful of Saths would destroy the whole GTVA, but the Shivans don't. If they knew who we were, you'd think they'd just respond in force immediately and behave in much the same way as FS1.

The Shivans, their behaviour is so different to the FS1 Shivans who were super aggressive. We all know the Shivans could have crushed the GTVA, and they tried to do it once before. So we have to come up with something to account for why they didn't.

I can certainly understand not wanting to believe the Shivans could possibly be scared of us. And I don't think my idea has any more or less merit than anyone else's. But it would make sense if it was true. As would most of the other ideas put forward in this thread. That's what's so good about this thread.