[qwadtep]

You shouldn't confuse the escalation you feel as a GTVA pilot with an actual tactical escalation on the part of the Shivans. They are both very different things. The idea that Shivans fold the hand after one Sathanas is busted is incongruent with the size of their fleet and the character that Shivans display throughout FS1 and FS2, both carefree and loose about their individual losses. To say this is "absolutely" what happened sounds extremely wrong to me.

One can (and probably should) read the Sivan invasion in FS2 with the sole purpose of blowing Cappella up, all the while the GTVA thinking they are on against humans and vasudans, that they are escalating, etc. I even find it a  numerological small nice detail the fact that there are 81 sathanases total, 80 of them actually reaching Cappella. One could imagine the Shivans work in base nine, instead of ten. Even the interview Batts refers to says this explicitly.

It's not the escalation you feel, it's the observable strategic reality of the nebula campaign. The entire story is a cycle of GTVA defeat -> GTVA escalation -> GTVA hubris -> Shivan escalation -> GTVA defeat. The Shivans sending a Sathanas fleet in response to the Colossus is no different than the GTVA sending a Destroyer fleet in response to the Ravana.

The idea that the Shivans in any way fold their hand, or that the Sathanas fleet is somehow incongruent, implies that the Shivans consider it either. They likely don't; on the contrary, experience tells us that even if the GTVA possessed the firepower to combat the Sathanas fleet the Shivans would simply send something bigger and badder, and if the GTVA in this Inferno-esque hypothetical had the firepower to combat that the Shivans would simply do the same again.

I'm not sure why you bring up Shivan numerology. Are you implying that because there are a total of nine-squared juggs they must form a single organization unit and only function en masse? That's like saying a carrier has to commit its entire fighter compliment to a mission or none at all. Nor does it make much sense, given how rapidly the Sathanas fleet starts pouring in, but only after the first has attempted and failed a solo run.

[Luis Dias]

You shouldn't confuse the escalation you feel as a GTVA pilot with an actual tactical escalation on the part of the Shivans. They are both very different things. The idea that Shivans fold the hand after one Sathanas is busted is incongruent with the size of their fleet and the character that Shivans display throughout FS1 and FS2, both carefree and loose about their individual losses. To say this is "absolutely" what happened sounds extremely wrong to me.

One can (and probably should) read the Sivan invasion in FS2 with the sole purpose of blowing Cappella up, all the while the GTVA thinking they are on against humans and vasudans, that they are escalating, etc. I even find it a  numerological small nice detail the fact that there are 81 sathanases total, 80 of them actually reaching Cappella. One could imagine the Shivans work in base nine, instead of ten. Even the interview Batts refers to says this explicitly.

It's not the escalation you feel, it's the observable strategic reality of the nebula campaign. The entire story is a cycle of GTVA defeat -> GTVA escalation -> GTVA hubris -> Shivan escalation -> GTVA defeat. The Shivans sending a Sathanas fleet in response to the Colossus is no different than the GTVA sending a Destroyer fleet in response to the Ravana.

You keep making the mistake I pointed out, that the Shivans actions necessarily imply they are acting reactionaryly against GTVA escalation. This is not so. The Ravana fleet was stationed in the Nebula system, and when it was clear the Knossos portal was open, the Sathanas fleet started moving towards the Capella sun. None of this necessarily implies any escalation nor even "reactionary" strategic planning on the part of Shivans, but one single decision process to engage the Capella star when the door became open.

The idea that the Shivans in any way fold their hand, or that the Sathanas fleet is somehow incongruent, implies that the Shivans consider it either. They likely don't; on the contrary, experience tells us that even if the GTVA possessed the firepower to combat the Sathanas fleet the Shivans would simply send something bigger and badder, and if the GTVA in this Inferno-esque hypothetical had the firepower to combat that the Shivans would simply do the same again.

They totally ignore the GTVA systems and instead engage the Capella star, giving humans and vasudans all the time in the world to shut down the nodes from Capella, something which would even become unecessary given how uninhabitable the system is about to become in no time. This is not the action of a species hellbent in fighting the humans / vasudans, this is not the action of a species trying to stop the GTVA from invading their space. The mere fact they tried to destroy the Knossos portal should be enough indication that these species were no match for the shivans.

I'm not sure why you bring up Shivan numerology. Are you implying that because there are a total of nine-squared juggs they must form a single organization unit and only function en masse? That's like saying a carrier has to commit its entire fighter compliment to a mission or none at all. Nor does it make much sense, given how rapidly the Sathanas fleet starts pouring in, but only after the first has attempted and failed a solo run.

You're the one stating it was a "solo run", when it could just as well be just the first of its kind running the route everyone else was. It was most probably unexpected for them that these species were able to stop this juggernaught, but it's like fighting the ocean with sand castles. Eventually, your castle is doomed. And yes, I am implying it's a funny coincidence that in base nine 81 is "100", nothing more nothing less. Most probably [V] didn't even consider it, but given how thought out their little details reached, you never know...

[IcemanFreespace]

It does seem improbable that they couldn't find ANY way to get to/destroy the star without Bosch's opening that one portal. More importantly, it is unsatisfactory to us as player-GTVA that we don't figure at all in their actions. There are also a couple of other simple unsatisfactory explanations, like that they were drawing a huge-ass line in the sand or that they wiped out the system in which we live instead of bothering with destroying planets. But I'd definitely start any discussion with them reacting to our input, which was opening the portal.

[Phantom Hoover]

This is something I noted as part of BP, but it's still interesting in general FS2 discussion: the main Sathanas fleet started pouring into the nebula minutes after they took Bosch.

[Megawolf492]

And yes, I am implying it's a funny coincidence that in base nine 81 is "100", nothing more nothing less. Most probably [V] didn't even consider it, but given how thought out their little details reached, you never know...

I believe the exact quote by Petrarch was "Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts have reached the Capella star." So while it could be 81, its probably more. Just another way of saying there's a lot of them.

This is something I noted as part of BP, but it's still interesting in general FS2 discussion: the main Sathanas fleet started pouring into the nebula minutes after they took Bosch.

While the debriefing of "Straight, no Chaser" does say that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula, the dialogue in "Into the Lion's Den" implies that that was not supposed to be the case. Originally, it seems like that you see the second Sathanas destroy the Psamtik, but you don't know there are more until the SOC mission. In that mission, Snipes is surprised to see multiple Juggernauts and vows to "warn the alliance".

This makes sense with the respect to fleet movements. The first Juggernaut was probably the one closest to (or already inside) the nebula. The others had to travel a while to get there. And they couldn't just travel through the portal at the same time, so locating multiple juggernauts right away doesn't make sense.

[Luis Dias]

Yes, exactly, and bear in mind that particular zod line "multiple Sathanas have been spotted..." is a plot hole given what we see in that SoC mission.

Many theories can be designed. I can admit theories that differentiate the first Sathanas from the second, third, etc., and Phantom Hoover's point about it being minutes between Bosch being taken over and the second Sathanas arriving was also developed in my own little bp fanfic... I also always regarded (well before even knowing there was a "HLP" on the nets) the Sathanas fleet much more like a fleet of giant Excavators (galactic highway constructors?) rather than a military fleet.

[qwadtep]

You keep making the mistake I pointed out, that the Shivans actions necessarily imply they are acting reactionaryly against GTVA escalation. This is not so. The Ravana fleet was stationed in the Nebula system, and when it was clear the Knossos portal was open, the Sathanas fleet started moving towards the Capella sun. None of this necessarily implies any escalation nor even "reactionary" strategic planning on the part of Shivans, but one single decision process to engage the Capella star when the door became open.

The Shivans knew the Knossos was open from the very beginning, their first appearance was sending a cruiser through. If the Sathanas fleet started moving towards Capella the moment the door was open, the game would have ended before the Colossus even appeared.

They totally ignore the GTVA systems and instead engage the Capella star, giving humans and vasudans all the time in the world to shut down the nodes from Capella, something which would even become unecessary given how uninhabitable the system is about to become in no time. This is not the action of a species hellbent in fighting the humans / vasudans, this is not the action of a species trying to stop the GTVA from invading their space. The mere fact they tried to destroy the Knossos portal should be enough indication that these species were no match for the shivans.

Collapsing stars is just as valid a tactic as glassing planets. The Lucifer didn't bother chasing down every ineffective warship in the system before reducing Vasuda Prime to dust.

You're the one stating it was a "solo run", when it could just as well be just the first of its kind running the route everyone else was. It was most probably unexpected for them that these species were able to stop this juggernaught, but it's like fighting the ocean with sand castles. Eventually, your castle is doomed. And yes, I am implying it's a funny coincidence that in base nine 81 is "100", nothing more nothing less. Most probably [V] didn't even consider it, but given how thought out their little details reached, you never know...

The Sathanas fleet pours in rapidly and en masse. You see, what, eight, arrive, in the fifteen minutes you spend with the SoC? Sathanas 1 is so far ahead of the pack that the only way it isn't solo is if it's piloted by Shivan Leeroy Jenkins.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I'm not sure if it's canon but I heard that the Lucifer was a scouting vessel sent with a scouting fleet. It is a specialist vessel designed to defeat lesser races who don't know how to penetrate shield defenses. I always thought a race "Passing the Lucifer test" was a bad thing for that race because it signaled the shivans to send a proper fleet.

The idea that the Lucifer fleet is a scouting fleet is from the blurb on the back of the FS2 Box. Could be canon or just marketing mumbo jumbo. I prefer to think the truth lies somewhere in-between.

The Sathanas fleet pours in rapidly and en masse. You see, what, eight, arrive, in the fifteen minutes you spend with the SoC? Sathanas 1 is so far ahead of the pack that the only way it isn't solo is if it's piloted by Shivan Leeroy Jenkins.

Not necessarily.
If you think of jump nodes as rail lines, and as the SOC Lion's Den area as a sort of rail hub in the centre of many different tracks and lines then one can suppose that at the time of the encounter, Sathanas 1 was in a location nearest GTVA and the other ships needed to be first recalled to that central hub before all proceeding towards capella. Like a net that needs to be draw inwards before being redirected in one single direction.

The difference is you think of the sathanas fleet as being drawn from the same place, or drawn from a linear reserve. A line. Whereas I would probably presume that the Sathanas fleet was spread around in different areas, and through the Comm Nodes was recalled and redirected. They found what they were looking for, so the fleet converged, redeployed and did their thing.

[Akalabeth Angel]

If you want me to prove absolutely that the Shivans would know how to open the portal, I can't do that. But we certainly know they know how to use them.

But do you really think it's more likely that the Shivans don't know how to open the portal than that they do know how to open the portal? I think it's very unlikely that they don't know how to open the portal. Unlikely enough that I have real problems with suspension of disbelief of any theory that goes with the Shivans always wanted to nova Capella for whatever reason but they couldn't because they couldn't use the knossos when we know what they can do, and we know that opening the knossos was no problem for our young race.

The shivans aren't using a portal. They're using a subspace node. The fact that the node is created or sustained by a portal doesn't functionally differentiate it from a naturally occurring subspace node.

Only 2 theories seem to make sense to me.  The first one supports the idea that the Lucifer fleet is remnants of the original fleet which destroyed the Ancients, and the Ancients managed to cut off their withdrawal afterwards by shutting down the Gamma Draconis portal themselves, before the Lucifer fleet destroyed them.

I think that's wrong for one particular reason. There's no reason for the ancients to want to cut off the Lucifer's withdrawl.

My theory would be that the ancients did exactly what the GTVA did. They saw the Shivans coming, and out of desperation turned off the portal in an attempt to make the node untraversable (the GTVA lacking the means to do this, destroyed it). However just in the case of the GTVA, the node had stablizied and the Shivans moved through it regardless of their efforts. Over time however, it became unstable and prevented the return of the Lucifer. Then GTVA turned it on again and stablized the node again.

In FS1 the GTA and PVN share a similar plight to that of the Ancients, I would think that this theme repeats itself to an extent in FS2.

[Colonol Dekker]

If they didn't think it could be beaten, and have a loooooooooot of patience, why would they build more than one?   

Or why not send two during the great war?

[Luis Dias]

You keep making the mistake I pointed out, that the Shivans actions necessarily imply they are acting reactionaryly against GTVA escalation. This is not so. The Ravana fleet was stationed in the Nebula system, and when it was clear the Knossos portal was open, the Sathanas fleet started moving towards the Capella sun. None of this necessarily implies any escalation nor even "reactionary" strategic planning on the part of Shivans, but one single decision process to engage the Capella star when the door became open.

The Shivans knew the Knossos was open from the very beginning, their first appearance was sending a cruiser through. If the Sathanas fleet started moving towards Capella the moment the door was open, the game would have ended before the Colossus even appeared.

I disagree. The first small contingent that went through the Knossos was part of the Ravana fleet, reacting to the Trinity appearance, etc. It's quite probable that the Sathanas fleet was signaled to enter the Capella system right at that moment, they just took longer to get there (they come from several systems away as seen in the SoC mission). It seems that the Ravana fleet is similar in scope and in purpose as the Lucifer fleet was in FS1 (and also metatextually), while the Sathanas fleet exists for a very different purpose (like building nodes and so on by blowing up stars).

Collapsing stars is just as valid a tactic as glassing planets. The Lucifer didn't bother chasing down every ineffective warship in the system before reducing Vasuda Prime to dust.

No it's not. We disagree fundamentally here. Not only did they let the vasudans and the humans off the hook by ignoring their attempts to destroy the nodes (and thus miss their opportunity to cleanse them), you don't just destroy a fourth of your "military fleet" by blowing up suns to get to those GTVA targets who were already fleeing from the system. It's also heavily implied by the Petrarch speech that while it was first suspected it was a weapon of such unforeseen proportions, the last speculation is entirely different in nature (and compared with the effort the humans will make in building the node towards Sol).

It's just idiotic tactics. You can easily glass planets with a single Sathanas for each one, and there would be nothing the GTVA could do to stop it. In Their Finest Hour their fleet was already pretty much done with. And while they are alien, writing on top of that "idiotic" is just idiotic.

The Sathanas fleet pours in rapidly and en masse. You see, what, eight, arrive, in the fifteen minutes you spend with the SoC? Sathanas 1 is so far ahead of the pack that the only way it isn't solo is if it's piloted by Shivan Leeroy Jenkins.

It could be. As I said, it might have come as a "surprise" (after properly translated to shivan terms) that the Sathanas was blown up, but just as well they just hammered on. I'm not even convinced the Sathanas fleet should be seen as running a "clockwork" route. Think of it as "ok, let's get these 80+ juggernaughts in place, gather them up and tell them to go there as fast as possible kthnksbye".

[Megawolf492]

The Shivans knew the Knossos was open from the very beginning, their first appearance was sending a cruiser through. If the Sathanas fleet started moving towards Capella the moment the door was open, the game would have ended before the Colossus even appeared.

Just because they sent a cruiser through doesn't mean the whole Shivan "network" knew about the portal being open immediately.

If they were waiting all this time for the portal to somehow reactivate and they knew about the Capella star being "perfect" for their plans, then the Sathanas fleet would be close by. We know that they weren't close by. Remember, the only ships to make it to Capella didn't make it back (at least until the Sathanas fleet showed up). So the Sathanas fleet didn't show up specifically for the Capella star, nor did it show up to try to destroy us, as it didn't do that. It had to be something else, but who knows what.

[Colonol Dekker]

Maybe they were swarming from other spread out systems.
Who knoes. (deliberate typo)

[Lepanto]

FWIW, the first Sath appeared just after Bosch reached the Shivans. Maybe the Shivans were just reacting to the GTVA's intrusion into the nebula, until their dialogue with Bosch (or at least reading info on the Capella star from his databanks) convinced them to radically shift their strategy and send the Sath fleet charging into Capella.

[Colonol Dekker]

Everyone know ETAK was a facebook friend request from NTF to Shivanz/.

[Phantom Hoover]

hey bro, mind if we come over to your place for a party?

[starbug]

One thing you have forgotten is that the shivans have been know to travel unstable nodes that the GTVA cant. So the shivans could of mostly likely travelled the knossos one without the knossos being active. As it was never stated that node in gamma draconis was collapsed or just unstable.  So the shivans could of already been on the way and the timing of their presence and the activation of the knossos could all be coincidence.

[Luis Dias]

That would be the most amazing coincidence. Perhaps everything is accidental and it just coincidently all meshes out into an apparently coherent plot? Could be I mean. The story could even be about a Boltzmann's brain with that particular pilot memory. It was all chance you see.

[Lorric]

Could be anything. Maybe it was all a religious ritual in which the Shivans sacrifice themselves en masse to their Gods and ascend to a higher plane of existence, after first proving themselves worthy through battle with another race.

[Luis Dias]

My favorite theory was how the shivans built a portal through time and space towards Future Sol so that the future Human species could migrate to the far past in their new shape, as Shivans. And because they wanted to keep their origin story a secret, they kept comms' very strictly and only used advanced bots as fighters. They did everything they could to wipe every other race that could pose a threat to the GTVA and even engaged in their most damned protocol, to wipe Vasuda Prime and almost Earth itself to keep humans and vasudans on their toes, advancing as fast as they could, so that they would eventually build the self-replicating war machinery that would be called later as "the Shivans".