Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: DaBrain on November 13, 2005, 11:09:56 am
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Ok, my Loki wasn't really good after all, so I'm trying to work on another ship. ;)
What do you think? Am I on right way this time?
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/644/damant11hf.th.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=damant11hf.jpg)
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Melikes :yes:
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The pic is a little on the dark side. Could you try getting a better one where I can see the model in a better light?
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Looks pretty good from what I can see.
(http://fs2source.warpcore.org/wmcscreenies/manticore.jpg) (http://fs2source.warpcore.org/wmcscreenies/manticore.png)
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Ok, a better pic. No problem. ;)
This one should match WMCoolmon's pic:
(http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/8339/dament33gd.jpg)
And another one:
(http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6114/damant46po.jpg)
Right out of Wings3d. :)
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3 things.
1: Very good so far !
2: Model in the glowing bits though...
3: (nitpick) the triangles of the gun barrels should have the point furthest from the center pointing winwards and downwards
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jesus, you people never know when to stop amazing me. :D
but i've always had this question: why do the laser banks look like they should be for missiles, and vice versa?
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ersonaly i think it was either a messup like the myrmydon-helios, or it was decided that the balance needed to be changed and :V: did it the lazy way.
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Considering that the FS2 intro has them the wrong way round you could very likely be correct Firecrack. Most likely the change happened too late to redo the scenes the Manticore was in.
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but still, the missile ports look like they would prevent the missiles themselves from even getting out.
IMO, it makes :v: look kinda stupid there. not that I have anything against them, though. :nervous:
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He could widen the ports. Dunno how that'd look.
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Considering that the FS2 intro has them the wrong way round you could very likely be correct Firecrack. Most likely the change happened too late to redo the scenes the Manticore was in.
FS1 movie too, it shoots from the front banks.
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That's a looks-vs-balance thing. Same deal with the Apollo, probably the Myrmadon, and a number of other ships. Having the gun ports on the extreme edges of a ship (Claymore!!!!1111one, to pick at aldo ;)) makes the ship MUCH less combat effective, and :v: typically dealt with this by swapping gun and missile ports on affected models.
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Personaly, i never had a problem with wingtip gunbanks, just aim a bit off center to compensate...
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But you only hit with half your guns when you do. It's not impossible to compensate for, it's just not ideal. And I don't think the AI could figure it out.
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Needs more work; as it's been said, model in the glowy bits. Try to make it look like the texture even when it's untextured; that way when it's done the UV maps can be adjusted to the model and look much better.
IIRC Nico made a Manticore. Let's find it.
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Then you roll so all your shots hit :D
unless it's one of those blasted peauguseses.
But yeah, the AI is the deal eh...
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But you only hit with half your guns when you do. It's not impossible to compensate for, it's just not ideal. And I don't think the AI could figure it out.
Yeah, I've watched a Herc sit a few hundred meters away from a sentry gun (or cargo container, I don't remember) and fire away at it for at least five minutes, completely missing it every time. A marksman the AI is not.
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IIRC Nico made a Manticore. Let's find it.
... I knew it...
Screw the broken search function.
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HERE (http://www.hard-light.net/~freespace/showthread.php?s=5629caa5c581f30d8fcbd5d693b857c0&threadid=3939&highlight=manticore)'s the archived thread, image links are broken though. He said he was working from the concept art found HERE (http://www.geocities.com/alpha_quadrant_project/shivan2.html), which is a good idea.
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Sounds like his model was really impressive. Maybe I should spent my time on aother model...
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Unless and until his turns up, don't do that.
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Nice.
Cockpit is a tad to terran for my tastes, I would go more along the lines the texture implies.
*Looking at WMC screenie*
Could the green glowy bits be the cockpit interior, with the grey lines being the cockpit struts ?
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I'd personaly just make it loke the cockpit on the higgaran interceptor (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,33764.0.html) wiht nothing seeming to actualy be a cockpit window.
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i have a small suggestion for the missile banks: as seen in the stock manticore model, make a bit of an indent in the right side of the triangle. :)
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Cockpit is a tad to terran for my tastes, I would go more along the lines the texture implies.
The thing about the Manticore, and this goes for the Scorpion too, was that properly textured they probably could have passed for slightly odd Terran designs.
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I don't see a real cockpit in the texture...
Maybe I'm blind.
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Maybe it doesnt have one, we are talking Shivan here after all.
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That's spelled Hiigaran, BTW. And techinically, it's a Taidan interceptor. </nitpick>
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Err.. i'm preety sure my link shows a Hiigaran interceptor...
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That's spelled Hiigaran, BTW. And techinically, it's a Taidan interceptor. </nitpick>
It's a Hiigaran interceptor, and technically the Taidan were not in HW2 ;)
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^Well.. werent the vaygr supposed to be taidan remnants? SO technicaly the taidan were in WWII, but not realy...
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^Well.. werent the vaygr supposed to be taidan remnants? SO technicaly the taidan were in WWII, but not realy...
The Vaygr are completely new.
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^Well.. werent the vaygr supposed to be taidan remnants? SO technicaly the taidan were in WWII, but not realy...
That was one of those really crap story tidbits that somehow made it into the final game. You're better off considering them a different race for all intents and purposes. And the Vagyr interceptor only showed up in one of those pics anyway so it would still be wrong.
Of course, seeing as how the homeworld universe is completely fictional, I'm not sure how it's possible for any of the factions to have been involved in the second world war :p
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Wait a sec...I got that wrong. I meant Kushan. The Taidan stuff was more streamlined in look. I was thinking Homeworld, not HW2. I've only just recently gotten HW2 and I'm barely to the edges of the Gehenna asteroid field.
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Damn... I'm tired from work, but I managed to update the model a bit. :)
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2135/mant13xq.jpg)
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1290/mant21dt.jpg)
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2237/mant36jn.jpg)
Edit: Hmm I forgot to fix the guns... well...
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She is a beauty mate, What are you planning with the guns anyway? I still think you should 'cap' them like in the concept, I like the idea of Shivan using some kind of emmiter rather than the traditional barrel.
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I like it.
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Ahh, I'm liking the extra detail on the 'arms'. Will it line up with the textures when you're done?
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Those are actually on the stock texture. They look a bit different. I wasn't able to copy it 100% and left them this way, because it looks neat. ;)
I'm going to re texture the model from the scratch. The old map is too bad to work on....
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How do you like these:
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2369/mant59ii.jpg)
I've switched them around, now the whole fighter looks more agressive. ;)
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Excuse me, but what exactly have you switched around?
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The guns, or missle launchers on the two pods. (The triangle thingys. ;) )
Hmmm window?
(http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/4606/mant67ok.jpg)
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Kick ass work as always Da Brain. :yes:
I don't think the window fits with the whole Shivan design ethos though. I always thought that Shivan ships were an extension of the Shivan.
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I'm a bit worried.... it has 2,6k polies already.
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*amazement whistle*
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1: ok, well, switching around guns isnt realy athstetic, so hard to notice.
2:Cut the window, i dont think it looks good. Shivan fighters should be faceless.
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Great work! Remember to turn the gunports 45 degrees 'inward' to match the original texture.
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Hmm it looks a bit less evil if I do that. Are you sure you want a 100% correct version according to the original texture?
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Sctualy, try giving the guns a random rotation, see how that looks.
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Hmm it looks a bit less evil if I do that. Are you sure you want a 100% correct version according to the original texture?
Well, noone will ever notice ingame anyway. But watch out for the FS Purists! ;)
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badass! i look forward to seeing it in-game. :D
i agree though, maybe cut out the window, since it...eh...how should i put this... eliminates the Shivan feel to it.
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Would somebody like to help me with the mapping?
Final model download (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29228.0;id=102)
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I cracked open the model, and there's a LOT of optomization that can be done. Bevelling and extruding edges gets nice effects, but you have to clean up your geometry afterwards. There are scores of tiny tiny polies that can be done away with.
On a related note, in many places it's not true to the textures, which will make it very difficult to map, specifically on the two main guns and the orientation of the missile ports. These need to be fixed using the maps as a reference to ensure authenticity and the best texture alignment.
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a classic example of looking good on the outside, but problematic on the inside.
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I cracked open the model, and there's a LOT of optomization that can be done. Bevelling and extruding edges gets nice effects, but you have to clean up your geometry afterwards. There are scores of tiny tiny polies that can be done away with.
On a related note, in many places it's not true to the textures, which will make it very difficult to map, specifically on the two main guns and the orientation of the missile ports. These need to be fixed using the maps as a reference to ensure authenticity and the best texture alignment.
Well, I acutally thought about retexturing it from the scratch. I've some nice ideas for the shine map and glow map (and maybe for another map :drevil: ).
BTW I'll try to fix the model as good as I can. I still need more experience with this 3d stuff.
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BTW I'll try to fix the model as good as I can. I still need more experience with this 3d stuff.
If you catch me on IM, I should be able to go over the model with you and walk you through the optimization process.
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Ok I'm down to 2782 polies and 1383 vertics. (from 3002 polies and 1787 vertics)
I don't know how to optimize it any further.
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Post it up in the state it's in now and I'll have a look at it after my exam today.
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Well, I used 'optimize' in MAX, now it has even less polies and vertics.
I love automatic features. :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I hate automatic features :p (Though I'll confess to using Optimize to help make LODs occasionally). In all seriousness though, I never find them to be much help unless I'm creating messy models in the first place.
EDIT: Ok, first and foremost: the greebling on the guns has to go. I know it looks nice from really close up, but you're using about 10x or more the number of polys that you need in that region. That level of detail will never show up in-game. You've also still got a lot of very small polygons that are either near-planer with those around them or are breaking up edges unnecessarily; I didn't go over the whole thing with a microscope (and .3ds is too crappy a format for that anyway) but I noticed a lot of wasted polys around the cockpit area and the missile tubes, specifically where you've got indentations that almost go all the way across a surface but not quite, and you've got extra vertices hanging around. These faces are really small - they won't get a single pixel in-game - but they are butchering your polycount. There are some other optimizations, but Galemp can probably point them out better than I can.
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Is there a possibility to release 2 versions of this craft?
one that shoots lasers from its arms and missles from the pod like in the fs1/2 intro
and the second like in the game?
i always thought that the intro version manticore that is shooting from its arms is way cooler
of course the armshooting version should fire from every slot ;) maybe a configuration like the myrmidon has
ad to this cycling shivan primary lasers and whoohoo
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All that's easily done with ModelView assuming DB ever releases the POF.
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hrrrm... well... DaBrain, i like the model actually, it really looks great :)
altough, i know i'm repeating somebody, but you really got some truly wasted poly's in some places. if you dont mind i'd like to give it a try to optimize the model
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That would be awesome.
I'm busy with SoL atm, cause we're working with a deadline.
Oh and thanks, I surprised myself. It looked really nice. Like... someone else worked on it. ;)
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ROFL! :D
well, as the apocalypse project took me in today, i'll see what can i do sometime later. well, i got 3 weeks of school-free time, so might as well get some stuff done :D
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All that's easily done with ModelView assuming DB ever releases the POF.
yeah for someone that knows how to do things in this program
but for example i have never ever seen this program so this could be a bit harder for me ;)
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With instructions you could do it in 2-3 minutes. All you have to do is swap round 2 pieces of data. You wouldn't need to reconvert the model or anything.
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i`ve done it and played some qucik missions, i tell you its two times better (for me) then the vanilla model
when i see a manticore blaze its six cannons of light lasers all cycling ( 2 slots like in the myrmidon) it looks "wheeeee"
i does hit less but with the amount of guns (2x2 and 2x4) this fighter now has its no problem :) ill post some screenies later if you want :)
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i`ve done it and played some qucik missions, i tell you its two times better (for me) then the vanilla model
when i see a manticore blaze its six cannons of light lasers all cycling ( 2 slots like in the myrmidon) it looks "wheeeee"
i does hit less but with the amount of guns (2x2 and 2x4) this fighter now has its no problem :) ill post some screenies later if you want :)
uhhh, for gameplay reasons i think that cant be done :)
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It can't ever be an official mod. Overkill is perfectly at rights to unbalance his own copy though :D
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why not? ;) the horus interceptor has a similar distance between its gunpoints :)
those fighters hit but just with lasers from one arm usually ;)
and unbalance in what way? :) i think the fighters is only a little less effective right now then before :)
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Any campaign that uses Manticores for enemys would get easier...they're already pretty crappy anyways. :p
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karajorma, true :D
WMC, aye, even if we glued one of those large scope thingy's to it, it couldnt hit s*it :p
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Any campaign that uses Manticores for enemys would get easier...they're already pretty crappy anyways. :p
Exactly. Overkill can release the ship if he wants so that others can use it but if it changes the balance it can't go in the media.vps.
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just one thing i never ever said to replace the manticore with the modified gunpoints version
i only said it would be nice to release two versions
so in fred we could choose from:
SF Manticore
SF Manticore
x:= Intro,Old,modified...,etc.
so if someone would like a more "fluffy by the intro" version of this ship it could be easyli added to a mission without looking for a pof file/mod
i can edit the final model if you want :)
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i've already edited the original manticore. ;)
i released it some time ago, but it's not on any of my hosting spaces nor do i even have it any more...
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(http://www.freespace2.com/images/main_header_one/header.jpg)
Thought I'd put that here as far as texture is concerned, that's a good shot for measure :p
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I want that texture!
Was there a high-res texture on the FS1 DVD?
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LS used the higher res ones when he went over them... so they should be in the shie and etc maps already... bt if you want, I can get it out.
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I've been tracking this for a while now and I have to say, I love it --- although I wish the greebling of the exterior of the ship followed the original textures better. As for the commentary on a six-gunned, two-missile pod-ed Manticore, my explanation is that the Shivans had two forms of Manticore --- one that we fought quite often, and another "breed" only seen in the FS2 intro modified to have more firepower. An..."elite" Manticore, if you will.
And the fact no one ever sees these uber Manticores can be easily explained that they tend to be found around fully-shielded Lucifer class superdestroyers... ;)
Any chance the three triangular missile ports could be modified after the model is finished to put two HUGE beam cannon emitters on the sucker? All we need to truly torture a player is to put fighterbeams on the ends of the arms... :drevil:
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The idea of two Manticore versions is quite logical, if you think that the Shivans are also using Cain-class Cruiser Chassis for a far more deadlier Lillith class...
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Thing that bugs me about the Shivans is that the Basilisk has the Green features originally...
That was off topic though heh.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thing is... the green doesn't look nearly as menacing. It looks... old.
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It's not just the Basilisk
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/N-x/sfmanticore.jpg)
Apparently green was changed to red to make Shivans look more evil, but V didn't have time to redo the animations
*downloads model*
Nice work btw, the only thing I don't like are the bottom weapons. I think they shouldn't be rounded, and you're wasting too much polygons there. And those extrudes... get rid of them. They look more like geometry errors. I think you should do something rectangular like in the pic.
Edit: oh and please... never ever put a hole in the gunpoint. There's no need to, you won't be seeing it ingame anyways. Textures will do. Same goes for turrets (smaller ones at least)
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Thing is... the green doesn't look nearly as menacing. It looks... old.
Lucifer in the .ani's had a Green/Yellow combo as well, right?
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True... meh, I guess it's the Basilisk I just don't like in green. But that's me.
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The Basilisk is basically a shivan coffin with guns anyway.
I can think of three types of ships that might lose to it in one-on-one combat.
- Utterly unarmed ones (Cargo containers...asteroids...escape pods...)
- Anubis without shields and only ML-16s
- Training drones.
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The Basilisk is basically a shivan coffin with guns anyway.
I can think of three types of ships that might lose to it in one-on-one combat.
- Utterly unarmed ones (Cargo containers...asteroids...escape pods...)
- Anubis without shields and only ML-16s
- Training drones.
I dunno. What if Alpha 1 was piloting?
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Remove "Training Drone", "Anubis", and "asteroid" from that list.
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The Basilisk is basically a shivan coffin with guns anyway.
I take it you don't like the Basilisk then? ;)
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Well, it's not a very powerfull ship, it realy better serves the role of "light bomber" than heavy assault, utterly useless against anything but cruisers.
Then again, it's a hell of alot better than the ashema.
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I imagine the Basilisk isn't so bad if you try flying it. Remember how easy it was to shoot down NTF Hercs, but we love 'em anyway.
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I'm actually really feeling sorry for the Shivans. They have the worst fighter weapons in the whole game.. Try fighting with weapons that are worse than Prom R...
EDIT: With proper weapons Basilisk might actaully be worth of something.
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Thing is... the green doesn't look nearly as menacing. It looks... old.
I guess that depends how you use it.......
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The Basilisk is basically a shivan coffin with guns anyway.
I take it you don't like the Basilisk then? ;)
Oh no, I love the Basilisk. With With Kaysers I could blow them out of the sky all day. :D
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This doesn't correspond to here, but yes Shivans weapons aren't really worth compared to Terran and Vasudan ones...
However in Inferno, there is an exclusive Shivan weapon, called "Swarm of Death", is an Harpoon (Aspect seeker) that Spawn around 14 Missiles when it explodes, if an Harpoon is deadly in FS2, then imagine what it can do when it spawn 14 sub-munnittions, even if 10 times weaker that the 1st Missile, it can do a lot more of damage......
When I add the support for players to be allowed to use Shivan ships, I really noticed, that probabily no one will choose them, the ships were unbalanced, I do multiple things in order to brough balance, but still there should be needed a few more...............
The only Shivan adventage is Slide acceleration (if there would be a key to use, I could evade everything...there is?) and Backwards acceleration...........
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But talking about FS2, I really like to use the Nephilim, it's a Mobile Fortress, it's shield are really powerful, carries lot of Weapons, and it has 7 Gun FirePoints, it may not have AfterBurner, but if someone would do a face-to-face challenge, I am sure the Nephilim would have the higher changes of survive
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This is getting off-topic...
Are we going to try revising this beast, or would we be better off redoing it in Max or something else that preserves the texture coordinates?