Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Charismatic on November 25, 2005, 11:57:49 pm
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Il rant. Bear with me, and bear with my awfull spelling and grammer.
I have a friend. Actually i have 2 friends in real life. One is a recently aquired girl (that is just a friend), and we are close.
A Yesterday i found out from her at 10 oclock at night that her ex bf (who she greatly cared about.. geatly) suicided. By a gun. So we were talking on the phone and she was in so great emotional trouble. I drove over there at midnight. Half hour drive.
I get there and shes crying, worse then iv ever seen in my life. I could see and feel her pain, everywher i looked. Written on her face. She told me later on that she tried to kill herself but didnt fuly go through with it. Cut herself in (a area (dont think sick)- yes im blanking this out to pervent anyone who knows her to know who it is).
I tried desperately to confort her, but i did not have the words to say. All my years of knowing what to say to help people, failed me. I managed as best i could.
As i said to a friend on IM:
"[23:38] SirEphili: i could see through her
[23:38] SirEphili: by her eyes
[23:38] SirEphili: it was wired
[23:38] SirEphili: the one time a persons defences are down, all walls down and u can see through their eyes to how they feel
[23:39] SirEphili: i remember her eyes... her pain man
[23:39] SirEphili: i am sick most today cauze of thinking about it
[23:39] SirEphili: i feel in pain in my heart too caue im feeling for her and about i could loose her and all"
I dont know what all i wana say, as this is public and its a private matter. But i told her id see her today but i was not able to. Hopefulyl i will tomorrow. Im sick. I fear i may loose her. She may kill herself. In the time im not there. Every hour im ****ing afriad of loosing her. Every Godam minute! Im in so much pain for seeing her in pain and her being in pain. I dont know how to help her besides being there with her during this. But, ATM, i cant be there. Im sick. I dont know what to do.
As this is on topic, a friend of mine also told me today that his gf's friend hung herself. Hes greveing for his gf also as i am for my friend.
Someone tell me advice or something. This is killin me. I wana be there with her now!
[discuss this or your own experiances with the topic of suicides in this topic]
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Get her involved with a community service project. There is no greater joy than helping fellow man.
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Ouch. I've had a couple of friends who've gone through situations like this, and all I can tell you is to be there for her when she needs you. If you're really afraid that she's going to do something to hurt herself, you have to let someone know, namely her parents, the police, the hospital, or anyone you can trust to get her help.
Again, most importantly: Be there for her. She needs friends right now, and that may be all she needs to not go over the edge.
Hope this all turns out well for you, man. Remember that if you need to talk about this, we're always here, but don't substitute us for people in Real Life™, right? :)
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My deepest sympathies to you and your friends, for what it's worth.
And my whole-hearted contempt to those who killed themselves. Sad as this may sound, that rant makes me feel that my feelings in regards to these people are vindicated.
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Ouch. I've had a couple of friends who've gone through situations like this, and all I can tell you is to be there for her when she needs you. If you're really afraid that she's going to do something to hurt herself, you have to let someone know, namely her parents, the police, the hospital, or anyone you can trust to get her help.
Again, most importantly: Be there for her. She needs friends right now, and that may be all she needs to not go over the edge.
Hope this all turns out well for you, man. Remember that if you need to talk about this, we're always here, but don't substitute us for people in Real Life™, right? :)
-Yeah. Im doing my best. But as i cannot drive alone, and as i do not have my own working car (have a non working car) i cannot travel there as id like to. Yeah, il try to be there for her tomorrow. Im gald i was able to last night but..
Dont worry, im not substituteing you all for real people. Hehe.
Get her involved with a community service project. There is no greater joy than helping fellow man.
-Not sure how you intended that to be read. :wtf: I do not think that would help ATM, IMHO.
My deepest sympathies to you and your friends, for what it's worth.
And my whole-hearted contempt to those who killed themselves. Sad as this may sound, that rant makes me feel that my feelings in regards to these people are vindicated.
- *looks up vindicated at dictionary.com* Ahh. And thanks, its worth something.
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Generally just being around is best.
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Yea, honestly, I'd say just be there for her. You can't replace what she's lost, but maybe you can provide something to keep her going. Don't force yourself on her - if she wants to be alone, let her be alone. But if she's the kind of person to commit suicide herself because of this, keep an eye on her though.
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If you can't think of anything to tell her to make her feel better, just listen. If she needs it, be ready to be a super absorbant tear pillow. I've had a special someone in my life have some issues, and sometimes being a good listener is all you can do.
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Ehhhhhhh I don't quite get that story. Why did/does she want to kill herself? Also who is the one that needs help here? You because you don't feel good about her feeling bad or do you want advice on how to help her?
If you're looking for the latter, it's time to get an organisation that deals with this **** to interveine. If you think she might off herself, you've pretty much been given information that makes you partly responsible if she does. If you don't know exactly how to help her (and I think it's obvious here that you don't), get someone who does. As in, specifically, a group that deals with suicidal people.
If you don't know how to help her and don't want to involve anyone with knowledge of the situation, the best you can do is to start praying to whatever religion you subscribe to.
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IMO if at any point you start feeling depressed, stressed, or suicidal yourself get her some help from an organization or get here to a counselor and yourself as well. Be careful to not let stress get youd down. If at any point you start feeling overwhelmed to the point you don't believe there is any way to deal with it get proffesional help, it is nothing embarassing nor anything that will negatively affect your future.
Be sure to make sure she avoids drugs and other abusable substances (such as alcohol) because it only makes recovery much, MUCH harder!
I hope Iv'e helped a lil' bit :)
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Just as a frame of reference, the vast majority of people who commit suicide don't give advanced notice. But I still wouldn't risk it.
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I haven`t had any close friends die from suicide, but have had them die of other causes, which covers a large area. Since this has some distinctive simularities I felt it wise to answer..
One thing younger people seem to not understand is that once its over, its over... There is no comming back from death..
They sometimes don`t fully understand the consequences of the action of taking one`s life, but it should be explained to them.. Life has a lot to offer, even if it is not seen at the moment.
You want to talk to her then you must seperate yourself from your personal feelings.. I know that is so hard to do in a time of crisis.. If you want to help her you have to do this, then words will come much easier..
(edit) Most important, if you believe and have faith in god, now would be a good time to ask for help, and pray for her.. I will pray for the both of you..
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Take the girl.
Put her next-to the guy.
Walk away.
Watch them get all group-therapy on each other.
I could elaborate further, but helping someone - anyone - who has tried to commit suicide, indirect as this may be, goes against the grain with me.
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an0n, I doubt helping anyone other than yourself goes against the grain for you.
Anyway, I agree with the sentiments - just be there and be a good listener. That's usually the best medicine.
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Just as a frame of reference, the vast majority of people who commit suicide don't give advanced notice. But I still wouldn't risk it.
And most people has thought about doing it. I, for one, know I have. Oh, yeah, back in "junior high" a girl in my class hung herself the last week of school. Bummer, really, she didn't seem that depressed. Of course, most people never do, as you say.
And why the **** don't more people make it look like an accident? That way it'd be easier on the close ones.
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Im trying but i have not got me and her talking sence, for a extended amount of time. She is either buzy or something where we cant personaly talk.
Im trying to be there, i was going to go over today, but she was gone with a friend for the day so this is my 2nd day away from her. And its killin me. My last images of her was the pain in her eyes, her crying her ass off, grief in the air.. and its all i can think about.
Today i did briefly chat with her. And by the sound of her voice she seemed just below par (normal) so its gettin better. And it seems she came to terms that hes dead and not comeing back. I did get to answer another question i was unprepared to answer. Meh.
Conciously i dont think she will attempt to hert herself again; but the fact that she did once bounces in my subconcious and makes me think and fear she may Regardless. I definately wont hert myself (someone here suggested that.. i think).
Whitelight said "You want to talk to her then you must seperate yourself from your personal feelings.. I know that is so hard to do in a time of crisis.."
-Well when i was there, i tried my best to be strong for her, and infront of her. And i was. Later that night when home and alone i cried, but i was strong for her. Is this what you meant?
BlackDove said "Ehhhhhhh I don't quite get that story. Why did/does she want to kill herself? Also who is the one that needs help here?"
-She tried to once, cauze of her pain; and said something like she had to do it too to.. take a part of him with her.. or some **** like that.
-Both. Lol. I need help cauze im like paranoid and think about her all the time. Need help on how to help her also.
Thanks everyone for ur input. No offence but screw the professionals. Lets just say i have a bias agienst them. Leave it at that.
God, lifes a *****. [/color]
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Seriously.
1. Talk her about it. Don't dodge or avoid. If she cannot handle it then she's not worth your time.
2. If she's not willing, well, then, seriously, **** it and **** her. You don't have any responsibility if she doesn't have any either. It is not a one-way road - don't take too much pressures if there's no reason for you to do it. If you want to dedicate yourself or something and she doesn't give a ****, then don't give a ****.
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Thanks everyone for ur input. No offence but screw the professionals. Lets just say i have a bias agienst them. Leave it at that.
Yeah, but it's not about you, is it? It's about helping your friend. Do you want to live with the possible results of saying exactly the wrong thing to her? Call the local suicide prevention hotline and tell them the situation - they can guide you a whole lot better than a bunch of computer geeks can.
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Not really.
The morons here are all either emo, god freaks or ****ed-in-the-head geeks.
And I advocate a simple "SNAP OUT OF IT!" approach to the situation.
Don't wallow. It's annoying and it only makes **** worse.
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Geezer- Good point. I still resist tho.
Janos- You do have a point but i think you misread me. Its not a matter of she dont care or that she is avoiding me, its a simple 'wrong time' thing. We are close and she wouldent do that.
An0n- Emo? And il think about what u said, but if i do i need to be there but that dont seem to be hapening as of yet.
The funeral is sometime this week, and she asked me to go. I wonder how that will trun out. I fear the worst but. (Will be weird going to a funeral of someone i dont know in any relation.
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For the love of Christ: Don't sleep with her after the funeral.
Seriously. I'll stab you in the heart if you do. It's the standard emo reaction to death and it ALWAYS ends up a ****ing train wreck.
At most, cuddle and ****. Because - not to put too much pressure on you or anything - there's the possibility that she'll take the swing-vote route and either: A) Idolize the dead guy for years to come via shrines and ****, B) Do as Peaches suggested and '**** the pain away'.
Cuddling signifies closeness and fends off emotional detachment while keeping her grounded in her established moral structure.....
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Uhhmmm.. she is not my gf. Were just close friends. So i wont be ****ing her after the funeral, or at all for that matter. (tho i wouldent min..) anyways.
Idolize through shrines? Where the hell do you live man?
Cuddling signifies closeness and fends off emotional detachment while keeping her grounded in her established moral structure.....
-I didnt understand that. Please resay or someone transilate that for me.[/color]
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Basically if you hug her you give her comfort and intimacy but within the limits of friendship and nothing more.
That's not to say I agree with that statement, I'm merely trying to explain what he said.
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if she's already tried before and she just tried now, that sounds a bit of a pattern starting to set up. don't let her be alone, it's when you're alone that you can brood yourself into doing it; when other people are talking to you, even if you still feel depressed, at least you have to finish talking to them before you can do anything... and maybe by the time they've gone away you won't feel quite so much like doing it anymore. make her feel that she's wanted and needed by her friends and family, that she can't leave. professional people talking to you are all well and good, but what do they know of the situation? but if she looks seriously like doing it again don't risk it, take her to the hospital or something.
i guess the most important thing is just make sure she's not alone- you don't have to be there, as long as someone else is. take this from someone who knows.
i hope things turn out okay.
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What do you do when everything crashes around you?
...be glad that it didn't crash on you?
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Vyper, i agree.
Icespeed, she has only tried once, no more. So its not a pattern. But if it dose become one be assured i will take appropiate action.
Carl, lol nice.
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Can I ask something?
Where the **** are the parents in this?
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For the love of Christ: Don't sleep with her after the funeral.
Seriously. I'll stab you in the heart if you do. It's the standard emo reaction to death and it ALWAYS ends up a ****ing train wreck.
I'll have to agree with an0n here. When someone's in grief, never take advantage of them. Not ****ing ever. I see that you're not probably going to be one of those, but this mostly here just to be QFT.
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Can I ask something?
Where the **** are the parents in this?
This isn't 1960. Today nobody gives a **** about you.
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Charismatic - I think you need to step back. It sounds to me like you want her to need you, that is, you've taken wanting to help her to an extreme.
I would say that if you really are still concerned about her trying to hurt herself, figure out something you guys could do...not a date...but something that would be fun but would be easy enough to take a break from, so she wouldn't feel pressured to put on a face...ie not something with a big group of friends.
Of course you don't want to turn it into a date either.
Edit: Just to lob a guess here, I think if you went to a professional they would go through in order and: Have her talk about how she felt, establish why she felt like she needed to hurt herself, try and come up with things she could do instead if she felt that way again, come up with ideas for activities that might be therapeutic (ie join some local non-profit organization that helps people).
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I've tried this, and it sucked about 3 years of my personal life away forever. Turns out I was the one who needed therapy after all was said and done, because I put myself out there, and tried to help her with a similar problem. It didnt help that it was mostly long distance, and that I was a gullible, sensitive little boy at the time. (it happened when I was 16, i'm now 23) All I can suggest really, is what Janos said. It's a two-way street, and if she's dodging or avoiding you for some reason, and cannot face the problem at hand and discuss it, YOU shouldnt waste your time on her. It's not worth the stress, mulling it over and over in your head, wanting to help someone in need that does not reciprocate.
Feel free to ignore my post, but I just wanted to say, I kinda know how you feel, at least have an idea, and just what might happen at the end of it all. You might try so hard to make things work, and even in the end, it still wont work out the way you'd like it to. If it's not working out now, you might be better off letting it go right now, rather than later.
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This isn't 1960. Today nobody gives a **** about you.
Sad but true.
Just offer your help. If she turns it down then there isn't much you can do about it.
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(tho i wouldent min..)
and thusly you're not really her friend. you're just around her thinking you might have a possible shot off bedding her. which you don't.
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I loved those guys at college.
Like all the ones who swarmed around my chum's short-time girlfriend (who I tricked him into asking out). She was like "Oh, I hang with these guys - but they're just my friends", and every time my buddy would hug or kiss her you could just see the jealous hatred burning behind their eyes.
Me laughing my ass off whenever it happened looked kinda creepy, as everyone assumed it was as a result of them showing affection, but I just couldn't help it.
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(tho i wouldent min..)
and thusly you're not really her friend. you're just around her thinking you might have a possible shot off bedding her. which you don't.
---Yes i am her friend. Its just really confuzing now. Things have changed, meh. Im not hopeing for a shot at that.
I've tried this, and it sucked about 3 years of my personal life away forever. Turns out I was the one who needed therapy after all was said and done, because I put myself out there, and tried to help her with a similar problem. It didnt help that it was mostly long distance, and that I was a gullible, sensitive little boy at the time. (it happened when I was 16, i'm now 23) All I can suggest really, is what Janos said. It's a two-way street, and if she's dodging or avoiding you for some reason, and cannot face the problem at hand and discuss it, YOU shouldnt waste your time on her. It's not worth the stress, mulling it over and over in your head, wanting to help someone in need that does not reciprocate.
Feel free to ignore my post, but I just wanted to say, I kinda know how you feel, at least have an idea, and just what might happen at the end of it all. You might try so hard to make things work, and even in the end, it still wont work out the way you'd like it to. If it's not working out now, you might be better off letting it go right now, rather than later.
---She is able to face the subject now. Thank you. (no sarcasm meant)
Charismatic - I think you need to step back. It sounds to me like you want her to need you, that is, you've taken wanting to help her to an extreme.
I would say that if you really are still concerned about her trying to hurt herself, figure out something you guys could do...not a date...but something that would be fun but would be easy enough to take a break from, so she wouldn't feel pressured to put on a face...ie not something with a big group of friends.
Of course you don't want to turn it into a date either.
Edit: Just to lob a guess here, I think if you went to a professional they would go through in order and: Have her talk about how she felt, establish why she felt like she needed to hurt herself, try and come up with things she could do instead if she felt that way again, come up with ideas for activities that might be therapeutic (ie join some local non-profit organization that helps people).
---Tho reading this was very late; Very good observation. I honestly beleive i did take it to that extreme. Needing her to need me. And no im not planning to go out with her.
For the love of Christ: Don't sleep with her after the funeral.
Seriously. I'll stab you in the heart if you do. It's the standard emo reaction to death and it ALWAYS ends up a ****ing train wreck.
I'll have to agree with an0n here. When someone's in grief, never take advantage of them. Not ****ing ever. I see that you're not probably going to be one of those, but this mostly here just to be QFT.
---Im not takeing advantage of her. Wouldent dream of it.
Can I ask something?
Where the **** are the parents in this?
---Simple answer. Their not. There is no father present, and the mother 'cares' but dont seem to care that much. Yeah, no body gives a ****. Correct.
UPDATE::: Several weeks have passed. Everything is situated and stabalized. I no longer fear her herting herself. Everything is good. She is ok and made it through. Back to normal. Glad to see it too. Some thigns have changed, and i am uncertian if i like like her or not. Iv thought about it and decided not to. So im fighting my thoughts ATM. Meh. Plz dont give me crap about that (what i last said about the like word). Thanks for everyones comments and support. (Im fine emotionally too now, finally. Took forever. But i am.)[/color]
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---Yes i am her friend. Its just really confuzing now. Things have changed, meh. Im not hopeing for a shot at that.
so she's your friend, you wanna bang her, but you know that you're chanceless. I guess you're smrrter than I thought you were.
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Lol. I wouldent word it like that but, ur on track anyways. I like her a little but im not going for it. Im not saying i dont have a chance, i just dont wana **** up our friendship. Were close friends.
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tip tho, get more friends.
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And bang them?
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And bang them?
not what I was saying but well sure, why not.
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>) Already working on getting more friends.
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Anyone who kills him- or herself didn't deserve to live in the first place.
Anyone who tries to kill him- or herself but doesn't manage to do it shows gross incompetence and shouldn't be allowed to live any longer.
Anyone who cries over a suicidal gimp and then tries to kill him- or herself is on the exact same boat.
Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I have no sympathies for suicidals. Want to kill yourself? Go right ahead. Just don't stain my carpet.
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A friend of mine had his sister commit suicide (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=519&id=295812002) after bullying which, despite knowing both them, I had no idea about. And another mate who was hospitalised for depression after going to uni in Edinburgh.
So I have a lot of sympathy for people in that state of mind, because it's one which someone in our (generally speaking) circumstances can't fairly analyse unless we're psychologists. It's simply idiotic to suggest otherwise, that a serious mental illness (which is what causes suicide in pretty much all cases, except perhaps crippling terminal injury) can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.
Failed suicide attempts are often intended to fail, the desperate acts of a mind breaking down and attempting to reach out for help and attention. Attempting to reach out to people - family, friends, or just strangers - who otherwise would be happy to walk away, heads down, away from someones misery. We've probably all done it, walked away from someone who needs help in some literal or metaphysical manner, because we're scared of what it shows us about human nature and vulnerability.
The sort of attitude that abandons people in need of help, just because the illness is mental and not physical, is a stain upon humanity. Those that would espouse it, I think should be ashamed.
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A friend of mine had his sister commit suicide (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=519&id=295812002) after bullying which, despite knowing both them, I had no idea about. And another mate who was hospitalised for depression after going to uni in Edinburgh.
So I have a lot of sympathy for people in that state of mind, because it's one which someone in our (generally speaking) circumstances can't fairly analyse unless we're psychologists. It's simply idiotic to suggest otherwise, that a serious mental illness (which is what causes suicide in pretty much all cases, except perhaps crippling terminal injury) can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.
Failed suicide attempts are often intended to fail, the desperate acts of a mind breaking down and attempting to reach out for help and attention. Attempting to reach out to people - family, friends, or just strangers - who otherwise would be happy to walk away, heads down, away from someones misery. We've probably all done it, walked away from someone who needs help in some literal or metaphysical manner, because we're scared of what it shows us about human nature and vulnerability.
The sort of attitude that abandons people in need of help, just because the illness is mental and not physical, is a stain upon humanity. Those that would espouse it, I think should be ashamed.
Cry me a river.
If you need help, go seek help, not try to kill yourself. If you think that killing yourself is the only way out, it probably is, and you should rid the rest of humanity of the burden of putting up with your whiny self.
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It's simply idiotic to suggest that a serious mental illness can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.
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It's simply idiotic to suggest that a serious mental illness can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.
That's your opinion.
Psychology boils down to saying that with different words, and psychiatry boils down to saying that with addictive drugs. It's mostly handwaving with little significative provable results unless it involves heavy-duty psychotropics, which turns a person who wanted to kill herself into a drug addict who wants to live. Honestly, I wouldn't be able to decide which was worse, wasn't it for the fact that dead people don't have a way to bother me.
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Where's your psychology and psychiatry degree from then, that you know so much to so easily dismiss?
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While I am inclined to agree with Styxx, it's not that easily clean cut. Yeah, many cases warrant that kind of thought, but not all.
Generalisation is the mother of stupidity, no matter which form it takes..
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hah, this is funny. Styxx is trolling you mother****ers...
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The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.
Otherwise......
You're a pussy.
Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless. IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state. If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.
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The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.
Otherwise......
You're a pussy.
Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless. IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state. If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.
The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm
A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/campaigns/cminds/depression.htm
http://www.nelmh.org/page_view.asp?c=3&did=1675&fc=001008001
http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=235213
I am dismayed to note the attitude being displayed is somewhat similar to that which equated shell shock as being cowardice in WW1, or that regarded any number of psyschological disorders like schizophrenia as 'female hysteria' in the 19th century.
I would be very surprised (and dismayed) if anyone saying something as simple-minded as this sort of sentiment has had even the merest bit of contact with someone - anyone - who has suffered from said illness. It's a cowards attitude, based on stereotyping and blind assumption, and designed to dismiss rather than risk having to have the slightest bit of basic understanding or simple human compassion.
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The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.
Otherwise......
You're a pussy.
Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless. IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state. If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.
The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm
I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.
At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication. :)
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I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.
At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication. :)
You can also ask any psychologist and they'll tell you the 'you're a pussy' / 'attention whore' type statement is complete bull**** that only further depresses the patient and encourages them to avoid seeking treatment or recognising the illness. A harmful statement, one that can cause great distress. And if seen as a societal attitude, is incredibly dangerous.
That it is a serious illness requiring long term regulated care, whether that involves using medication or not. That it's not easy, or simple to recover from. It takes months or years. That it's causes may be genetic, or neurological as well as environmental. That no-one chooses to become clinically depressed, or place themselves in a situation (that's as stupid and unfair as saying throat cancer is the patients fault, if the patient is an average non-smoking individual).
Oh, and medication may be required in the event of neurochemical issues. Like serotonin uptake inhibitors.
It's easy, granted to blame a clinical depression upon the person being to blame, or weakminded, or a 'pussy'; it allows a person to deny the possibility of themselves suffering from that illness, to insulate themselves from it. Especially easy as the patient is particularly vulnerable, and it's a mental illness.
I wonder, do you know anyone who's been clinically depressed?
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I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.
At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication. :)
You say this because you do not understand the deeper stages of depression. Yes, a person's willpower is all-important when coping, but true depression is a result of an deep emotional conflict within the mind. Simply waving willpower about blindly won't do jack, though it can keep you alive.
Though actually Aldo, I kinda agree with him on suicide. When I was depressed (still am, really) I did think about suicide, but then my condition worsened. And I realized I had no intention whatsoever of suicide. Thinking about suicide is very different from considering it. The former is quite common among depressed people, the latter (at least in my experience) is done only by the truly desperate. Suicide attempts with intent to die are quite rare compared to cries for help.
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I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.
At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication. :)
You say this because you do not understand the deeper stages of depression. Yes, a person's willpower is all-important when coping, but true depression is a result of an deep emotional conflict within the mind. Simply waving willpower about blindly won't do jack, though it can keep you alive.
Though actually Aldo, I kinda agree with him on suicide. When I was depressed (still am, really) I did think about suicide, but then my condition worsened. And I realized I had no intention whatsoever of suicide. Thinking about suicide is very different from considering it. The former is quite common among depressed people, the latter (at least in my experience) is done only by the truly desperate. Suicide attempts with intent to die are quite rare compared to cries for help.
That's sort of what I mean, actually, and I said it in my first post. IIRC a lot of people about to commit suicide are dissuaded simply by reminding them they will be dying; the phrase 'kill yourself' (as in why do you want to) often acts to shock the person into realising what they are about to do and the full consequences. But even suicide as a cry for help can result in death, which is why I think it's incredibly inhumane to dismiss the victim as 'not worth being alive'. IIRC about 90% of attempted sucides are by people with some form of mental illness (a mood disorder in about 60% of cases; depression being the most common; http://www.afsp.org/about/jmann825.htm), and it'd be incredibly naive and daft to assume they are somehow in a rational mind of what they are actually doing.
For example, I mentioned a girl who OD-ed on painkillers; from what I understand it's quite often (in the context of suicide) people do this in the subconscious expectation of discovery. Similar with people who slit their wrists, stand on tall buildings or hang themselves; all these actions have some degree of 'warning time'. There's a story of a woman who survived a jump from the top of a hospital building; she described walking through 2 buildings in the hospital wearing only a gown, "hoping someone would see me out of all those windows; the whole building is made of glass”.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Styxx - except for the parts where he's dangerously close to espousing Scientological beliefs. I hate them ****ers.
Oh and anyone suffering from depression is a whiney little pussy. It's not even a real condition. It's just an excuse for people to ***** about how horrible their life is.
The only reason it even became a diagnosed condition was because no Doctor could bring themselves to write a Valium prescription into your medical records with the diagnosis: "V. Sad - Cries alot".
Depression is just the unhappiness of whiney, self-indulgent *****es.
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I wonder, do you know anyone who's been clinically depressed?
Yes, my father back in '95-'97 plus years before my birth (early 80's), and I have been having trouble lately myself. Iv'e actually been to the doctor several times and I know how it feels. You feel like there's no way out, you kinda just wanna lay down and die on the spot. I had constant fears that I had Brain Tumors and Multiple Sclorosis attempting to explain away the way I felt. I actually had thoughts of suicide, but I always thought of at least some small reason to live. My dad having experienced Severe Depression along with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) knew what to do. He used the "get up and snap out of it!" method and it does work. Along with that the fact that knowing the way I felt wasn't unique helped as well. I still don't feel all that great but I don't feel as bad as I did. Just calming people and telling them "everything's gonna be alright" just doesn't cut it, because that's what turns people into "attention whores" and "pussies". Because it basically spoils them. You shouldn't ball the depressed person out nor should you be extremely nice. You should just act normal as it establishes that nothing major is wrong. Because if your flat out an ass to them that does make them more depressed (as you said), but if your too nice they get used to that and they can't function in the real world anymore.
I know quite a few people that they've stuck on those damned anti-depressants and they just aren't the same people anymore. I can understand prescription drug use on a moderate scale for a short period on people who have severe depression. But only if they've gotten so deep into depression that they need something to get them rational enough to communicate with. After that they just need to get the **** up and do something otherwise they'll just sit there and have time to think about what's wrong with them, or think about whatever it is that's making them depressed.
Oh and in all seriousness I do apologize for the use of the word "pussy". That was a bit childish. :D
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no. it was invented by the music industry to sell emo music.
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The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm
A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/campaigns/cminds/depression.htm
http://www.nelmh.org/page_view.asp?c=3&did=1675&fc=001008001
http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=235213
I am dismayed to note the attitude being displayed is somewhat similar to that which equated shell shock as being cowardice in WW1, or that regarded any number of psyschological disorders like schizophrenia as 'female hysteria' in the 19th century.
I would be very surprised (and dismayed) if anyone saying something as simple-minded as this sort of sentiment has had even the merest bit of contact with someone - anyone - who has suffered from said illness. It's a cowards attitude, based on stereotyping and blind assumption, and designed to dismiss rather than risk having to have the slightest bit of basic understanding or simple human compassion.
Still, a person has to want to be cured of cancer to go through surgeries, get chemo and radiotherapy. And I know enough psychologists and psychiatrists to know that their whole profession is, at most times, a sham. Several of those I know even admit it openly - they're like fortune tellers. They tell people what they want to hear, or give them a little happy pill and suddenly they're all better. And I know several people who have been "clinically depressed", and all of them were whiny little attention whores before being "depressed", and continued to be whiny little attention whores after their "depression" was gone.
And also, who's talking about compassion here? I don't need compassion from a physician when I'm sick, I need him to do the damned job for which I'm paying him. Compassion has absolutely nothing to do with getting better from any kind of injury or illness.
I agree wholeheartedly with Styxx - except for the parts where he's dangerously close to espousing Scientological beliefs. I hate them ****ers.
Don't know jack about Scientology, apart from it being utterly stupid in general. What parts of my argument come close to it?
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Well, Styxx, you might be right...maybe everyone who kills themself is just thinking, "If nobody pays attention to me, then death is better than how my life is going, because I'm too lazy to make it better."
However, the response of "Okay, here's a knife," just doesn't sit well with me.
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In good Glasgow venacular - he's bammin ye up.
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Depression is caused by a chemical in-ballance in the brain. :nervous:
That seems to me to be a fair assement. :D
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Correct, clinical depression is a physical illness, it's quite common and is caused by an imbalance of various hormones. This is often bought on by stress and anxiety.
It's not particular of attention whores, you'll notice how many of you are saying that the people who commited suicide didn't seem like the 'type', not full of self pity or wanting to be noticed at the time.
As for this whole 'get a grip' bull****, I love the way people who have never had to deal with depression in their lives actually become all whiny about depressives 'being all whiny'. I hope you can see that for the Hyprocisy it is. Yes, there is a certain amount of 'getting a grip' involved, but when you cannot even motivate yourself to believe you have worth, that going out and improving your life for yourself is worth the effort.
To say people who commit suicide in some way 'deserve' it is complete bollocks, I've had a friend jump in front of a train, and another one who gassed himself in a car, it was stupid, it hurt a lot of people, but under no circumstances do I think my friends deserved to kill themselves.
But then, what are you lot without you little soap-boxes? Aren't we all doing exactly the same thing, demanding our 5 minutes. Just stop putting different people in convenient boxes for 5 ****ing minutes will you?
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When I say "attention whore" I am speaking of the person that leaves the little "I can't take it anymore" note and leaves their family and friends to feel guilty which then results in more depressed people. I mean if your going to kill yourself at least make it look like an accident or don't do it at all.
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I totally disagree with you.
That doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.
Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless.
You have no ****ing idea what it is like to have clinical depression, do you? It isn't something you can control.
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Suicide should be a fundamental human right, as well as right to die with dignity.
ARGUE
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Meh, suicide isn't a right, it's not a way of ending physcial pain and humiliation as with 'assisted suicide', it's only ever turned to by people who truly believe that their mental anguish is similar.
People who are depressed enough to suicide need help, but this whole attitude of 'Pull yourself together' as displayed by those who have less of an idea about depression means that the moment someone says they are feeling suicidal they just exactly the same attitude, as though somehow it's their fault they are depressed and unable to comply. That attitude has done more to damage and hurt people suffering from depression than anything else, as though depression were somehow a sign of being 'not a man' by admitting the world is a bit too much sometimes.
It's far that reason that a lot of people suffer in silence from depression, afraid to mention it to their mates for fear of recieving the kind of ridicule they have just recieved from certain people in here. By not seeking help early, they actually make matters worse and end up suiciding without warning.
Now, you tell me, who's attitude is hurting whom?
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You have no ****ing idea what it is like to have clinical depression, do you? It isn't something you can control.
Yeah, just like alcoholism, drug addiction, smoking, sex-mania.....
It's a bull**** excuse for people who want to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the piss-poor state of their life.
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Sure, sure, people turn to alcohol and it ****s up their lives, that happens, that's why alcohol and niccotine are called 'addictive' drugs,
However, a lot of people turn to drink or drugs after they have hit a low, seeking a way out using those first then turning to other means. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make any of it 'right', but simply attacking or insulting them because you percieve them as 'less' than you is pretty insecure behaviour for a start.
I'm sure there are things about your life you would change which are not your fault or responsibility, but you still have to suffer the effects of it, does that mean that whenever you complain, you are full of bull**** too?
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When I say "attention whore" I am speaking of the person that leaves the little "I can't take it anymore" note and leaves their family and friends to feel guilty which then results in more depressed people. I mean if your going to kill yourself at least make it look like an accident or don't do it at all.
Have you even read a single thing I or other have written about the 'cry for help' usage of suicide by the clinically depressed? The note is designed to be found after the attempt fails. Again, it is not a rational decision made just to die - in this context (excluding other reasons like terminal illness) - but an irrational one, often without understanding the actual issue of death.
I can't speak for your father, but when my friend was depressed it took a lot of effort to cure him. I never found out till after he had been released from hospital, but even then he found it hard to do the most basic things, like just go down the shops. And the suggestion it could be cured by a click of the fingers seems absolute nonsense; you said your dad was depressed for ' '95-'97 plus years before my birth (early 80's)', which alone shows it is not a simple cure nor an attention seeking syndrome.
@Styxx; compassion - or lack of it - would be a major factor in discouraging mentally ill (i.e. clinically depressed) people to seek treatment. By attaching a false 'whiny' stigma to it, it attaches a feeling of shame in seeking help or admitting to the condition. It is in some ways akin to how HIV positive people can be discouraged from admitting their illness due to their being blamed.
Also, as far as scientology goes; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu
@anon: addiction is also a neurochemical effect, IIRC caused by the dopamine producing effects of drugs, alcohol, etc. If someone is already within the stages of depression, then they'd be far less likely to be able to rationally make the choice to drink, inhale, whatever. For alcoholism in particular, it's been suggested that the CHRM2 (related to a type of cellular receptor in the brain) gene can have a role in predisposing someone to both depression and alcoholism. Research has indicated that alcoholics often have a past history of depression, which is then worsened by alcoholism.
Both depression and addiction are regarded as chronic relapsing diseases, which can be tied down to neurochemical action. A particular link between the two is that a number of addictive substances (like morphine) act to stimulate a specific neuroreceptor that can have an antidepressant effect. In some senses akin to self medication, except that the initial anti-depressent effect of addictive drugs is short-lasting (and eventually results in changes to the brain that cause the addiction).
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It's a bull**** excuse for people who want to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the piss-poor state of their life.
I have clinical depression.
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As do I, and I certainly hope I don't whine about the state of my life, iirc, I very rarely even mention my life.
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Sure, sure, people turn to alcohol and it ****s up their lives, that happens, that's why alcohol and niccotine are called 'addictive' drugs,
Alcohol is, was and never will be described as an 'addictive' drug.
And nicotine addiction is about as tough as a caffeine addiction. You stop taking it, you feel ****ty, but it won't physically harm you in any way - so the only real addiction is psychological. Thus, I don't consider is a real addiction.
I'm sure there are things about your life you would change which are not your fault or responsibility, but you still have to suffer the effects of it, does that mean that whenever you complain, you are full of bull**** too?
No, whenever I complain it's because some asshole has made my life harder. Teachers, parents, siblings.....
I have no addictions. I have no 'bad' habits. All the bad things in my life are all there simply because I either like having them there, or don't care enough to remove them. But there is nothing I value to such an extent that I would go digging through the trash at 3am to retrieve it.
People with addictions are just whiney little *****es who think if they ***** and moan and call it an addiction and try to make it sound like it's something beyond their control, that they can do whatever the **** they like.
Alcoholics don't drink because they have to drink, they drink because they like drinking. Then when they're sober they cry their little eyes out because they regret all the ****ty things they did while drunk, but not quite enough to stop ****ing drinking. Just because you'd rather be drunk than a good parent doesn't mean you've got an addiction, it means you're an irresponsible, selfish asshole.
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As do I, and I certainly hope I don't whine about the state of my life, iirc, I very rarely even mention my life.
Which makes you sad and quiet - not depressed.
The annoying thing about 'depression' is the 'cures'. They say being depressed makes you lethargic and ****, and that going on all those stupid activity weekends and getting out more will help alleviate the depression. But it's that being lethargic and doing ****-all makes you bored, which in turns makes you 'depressed'.
Do **** that's fun, and it magically cures your depression. Who'd've guessed?
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Exactly, as I said on Warpstorm, you sit at home depressed because all you ever do is sit at home depressed ;) Vicious circle.
It's kinda hard to describe the lethargy you get when suffering from depression really, it's not simply a question of 'can't be bothered'. Lately it's been the telephone that I can't be bothered with, can't be bothered to answer it, can't be bothered to call people on it. Also doing **** that's fun is great, it's finding **** that you actually can get enjoyment from that is hard.
Edit : Problem is with help groups etc, is that you know what the bastards are up to, trying to jolly you along etc, and I have a natural '**** you' tendency that the moment someone starts trying to be nice and supportive to me I don't want to know, I've always believed that I need to shake depression myself, else I haven't truly got rid of it.
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I have clinical depression, and I can agree with the idea that it is most often self-imposed. True there are people who are feeling depressed no matter what is happening in their lives, but that accounts for a very small percentage of depression cases. Those ones need plenty more than just a pill. The chunk of clinical depression comes with extended periods of insufficient stimuli. In a way, it's like diabetes; if you don't digest enough sugars, hypoglycemic diabetes may come from it. The only way to repair the damage that was done is simplified in two words... Do something!
The proper solution for cases like this is to do something with your life. The lack of stimuli that will cause depression is doing the same damn thing, every day of your life. Working with computers is one of my favorite things, but I once became so bored with it, that I didn't care about anything at all, whether it had to do with computers or not. A week long vacation snapped me out of it.
If something different happens, your brain will react to it. It's just simple logic. And an0n, nicotine and alchohol addiction does develop physical dependancies. Sure, not as depending as heroine, but certainly is more than none at all (read: THC).
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Oh, I agree with you fully Scuddie, I've spent months sitting in front of the computer and not got one thing in TI done, which makes me all the more depressed. A change of scenery is required. I'm unemployed atm, which means money is low, but time is plentiful, it's just getting the energy/motivation together to make that step and actually do it.
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And an0n, nicotine and alchohol addiction does develop physical dependancies. Sure, not as depending as heroine, but certainly is more than none at all (read: THC).
If you're going to get all pissy about definitions, then I've got a water addiction.
And in no way does alcohol use create an addiction of any physical kind. The only suspect one would be insomnia as a result of withdrawl - but that's more a case of it having rotted your brain than a chemical dependency. Calling that a symptom of addiction would be like calling falling over a symptom of withdrawl from your addiction to having legs.
Also, if it's removal doesn't cause death, paralysis or a coma - it's not an addiction. If you can have a nicotine addiction, I can have a tasty-cake addiction.
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well, yeah, you can by all means be addicted to tasty-cakes. or at least the sugar in 'em. mental addictions are chemical addictions too.
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To those here who think willpower can solve all your problems:
Supposing someone stuck a red-hot poker up your behinds. You don't have to scream. I'm quite certain there are people out there who have enough willpower not to scream in such a situation.
Do you :)?
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To those here who think willpower can solve all your problems:
Supposing someone stuck a red-hot poker up your behinds. You don't have to scream. I'm quite certain there are people out there who have enough willpower not to scream in such a situation.
Do you :)?
I'd have hit him upside the head way before he had a chance to do that. :p
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To those here who think willpower can solve all your problems:
Supposing someone stuck a red-hot poker up your behinds. You don't have to scream. I'm quite certain there are people out there who have enough willpower not to scream in such a situation.
Do you :)?
I'd have hit him upside the head way before he had a chance to do that. :p
Usually it's not 'him' but 'them' :p
Just to follow up on my previous point - some here say that commiting/not commiting suicide is a moral choice. But every second of one's life is a moral choice. And I really don't mean to dis anyone's work here but modding Freespace 2 instead of doing community work, for example, is an (im)moral choice as well. So why do so many of us keep choosing the easy way out (which actually isn't a way out at all)? Can't we take the more difficult, but better choice? Can't we take it anymore? Have we succumbed to pain? Have we succumbed to pleasure? It's only a question of willpower, after all...
We're being tested all the time. Have we passed each test? If not, then what have we done about the part of us that brought about our failure? Has calling ourselves 'pussies' helped (pussies according to whose standard)? Has calling ourselves 'bad mofos' helped (bad mofos according to whose standard)? Has justifying ourselves helped? Maybe someone can answer 'yes' to at least one of these questions. The original matter of this thread is a little dated, I admit, but maybe the answer can still prove helpful :)?
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IMO debate teams should come here and practice with you guys. Although they might never win.:p
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IMO debate teams should come here and practice with you guys. Although they might never win.:p
arguments are never about winning.
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Arguements are about the spectators.
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Arguements are about the spectators.
:nod:
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Apologies if my previous posts came across as pretentious, I hope this one won't.
Just one more thing - I'm vying for some consistency, fairness and self-honesty here. Let's not apply double standards. If we call others names for their failures, we should call ourselves the same names for our failures, too. Ditto with any self-congratulating or self-justifying. But let's also be honest to ourselves and if any of these reactions don't work the way we intended them to, let's change them both with regard to ourselves and other people :).