Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on June 29, 2006, 08:32:13 pm
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http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84
If it does then I might actually go to Linux......
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I think alot of people will. Alot more will be left scratching their heads as to what just happened. This is bull**** really.
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yay for crackers
also for people who crack these things
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MS is pushing the limits to see how far they can go. No surprise, really.
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Well Google is starting out on Microsoft's turf with some of their Office Applications, and Microsoft knows they can't compete, I guess they're trying to see how big their captive audience is.
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i have installed this piece of **** not so long ago via microsoft update, cause it didnt let me download updates anymore... i wouldnt have anything against this actually if it ran once to check if the windows are genuine, and then promptly delete itself, but noooo, every time i start my PC bitdefender informs me it blocked wgatray.exe from accesing the internet.
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It's a shame how much problems WGA causes, I wouldn't really care as long as it works and does not cause problems, but this does not seem to be the case.
If it does then I might actually go to Linux......
As for switching to linux, that is quite a laughable idea. Linux rocks in precisely two environments; server and embedded. In those two environments Windows sucks. In desktop, workstation and notebook environments linux sucks. I have to add that its not entirely linux's fault however, the biggest problem are hardware drivers. Linux is not common enough in above mentioned environments for many manufacturers to really care about their linux drivers, they just offer some drivers to shut people up. And even then many drivers are properietary which is a curseword in linux world and are not even included with majority of the distros. In such cases third party drivers are used, which are usually crap. The best example of this are video card drivers, without proprietary drivers from the hardware manufacturer you could as well be using some 10 year old integrated crap instead of your monster video card. Of video cards, ATIs cards cause so much headache that you better get an NVIDIA card if you want at least relatively trouble-free installation and initial configuration. But then again, what would you use an ATI or NVIDIA card for if you can't even play 98% of the games?
That and the fact that there are half a dozen common linux distributions and a dozen not-so-common distributions which have enough differences to make hardware manufacturers to spit on them. There is only player in town that hardware manufacturers would take seriously and that is OS X. But what are the chances that Apple lets people to ever install OS X on PC's legally? Very slim. Want to get rid of Windows permanently? Do yourself a favor and get a Mac, linux is a pain especially when video cards are concerned.
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It's a shame how much problems WGA causes, I wouldn't really care as long as it works and does not cause problems, but this does not seem to be the case.
If it does then I might actually go to Linux......
As for switching to linux, that is quite a laughable idea. Linux rocks in precisely two environments; server and embedded. In those two environments Windows sucks. In desktop, workstation and notebook environments linux sucks. I have to add that its not entirely linux's fault however, the biggest problem are hardware drivers. Linux is not common enough in above mentioned environments for many manufacturers to really care about their linux drivers, they just offer some drivers to shut people up. And even then many drivers are properietary which is a curseword in linux world and are not even included with majority of the distros. In such cases third party drivers are used, which are usually crap. The best example of this are video card drivers, without proprietary drivers from the hardware manufacturer you could as well be using some 10 year old integrated crap instead of your monster video card. Of video cards, ATIs cards cause so much headache that you better get an NVIDIA card if you want at least relatively trouble-free installation and initial configuration. But then again, what would you use an ATI or NVIDIA card for if you can't even play 98% of the games?
That and the fact that there are half a dozen common linux distributions and a dozen not-so-common distributions which have enough differences to make hardware manufacturers to spit on them. There is only player in town that hardware manufacturers would take seriously and that is OS X. But what are the chances that Apple lets people to ever install OS X on PC's legally? Very slim. Want to get rid of Windows permanently? Do yourself a favor and get a Mac, linux is a pain especially when video cards are concerned.
i second this man.
its all fine and dandy, but it doesnt do what i want it to do, unlike windows, which sometimes actually does what i ask of it.
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Fury, the hardware argument against Linux skirts around the real, and ONLY issue - that maybe 1% of commercial x86 applications will run on it. Hardware support would be much, much better if a sizeable portion of the market would use it. But they don't, because Linux runs almost no programs at all. Everyone develops for Windows because everyone uses Windows. It's a catch 22 of course, but it's the root of all Linux's problems. If a good number of games ran on Linux, for example, then the card manufacturers would write proper drivers for it.
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As an aside, I'd be curious as to what overall percentage of PCs - home and business - actually are used to run stuff beyond a web browser and office-type application.
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Hang the **** on. To do this they'd need to install additional software components to check for WGA in the first place. The simple solution is to avoid installing these additional components - and if M$ try and sneak them out without telling you, the EU will probably ass-rape them for it.
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Hardware support would be much, much better if a sizeable portion of the market would use it. But they don't, because Linux runs almost no programs at all. Everyone develops for Windows because everyone uses Windows.
It is really an unbroken loop. It is almost impossible to break the loop, as you need all of the following conditions.
1) Better hardware driver support. Won't happen because of lack of commercial requirement.
2) Better commercial software support, such as CAD softwares and games for linux. Won't happen because of poor driver support.
3) Wider adoption, won't happen because of the previous two conditions.
And last but not least, the biggest obstacle in commercial adoption of linux.
4) Each linux distro is more or less different, hardware and software would be needed to be tested thoroughly on no less than five different distros to gain marketshare in the linux world.
This is also the reason why linux has gained marketshare in server and embedded environments. Servers are always qualified only for one or two linux distros at most. In embedded the hardware changes even less than in server environment. Sure there is the LSB, but it is far from perfect and so far has not really helped much.
OS X would have much better chances to rival Windows in desktop, workstation and notebook environments than linux ever would. But as said, OS X will most likely only install on Macs (legally).
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I'm waiting for google OS. :D
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the "no software runs on linux!" argument is even more retarded than the "no driver support"
Name me a piece of software and I will name you it's OSS replacement (Which is often superior)
I use linux as a desktop every day at work, I have a computer at home that runs linux 100% of the time and is my multimedia system driving my TV, recording my shows, etc.
my fiancee (a technonewblet) ran nothing but linux for 9 months straight - reinstalled windows just for running everquest (wine cannot *quite* run it - but very close)
yes, don't forget WINE - most of your "ZOMG! gotta have this application! it doesn't run on linux!" things run in wine, including many games
PS: making your ATI card work on linux is laughably trivial. I have less problems getting my card working on Fedora Core 5 than I do on windows
compare:
Windows Install
spend 1 hour in the ugly windows installer
tolerate 640x480 while on the internet to get driver
navigate to ATI's website
download the appropriate driver
restart the machine
pray it worked
spend 12 hours installing other software I need
Fedora Core Install
spend 20 minutes in the beautiful Fedore Core Anaconda Installer
have full 32bit whatever res I want when I reboot already (generic OSS ati driver)
run two commands to setup FedoraFaq repositories
yum install fglrx
log out, log back in
(already have all the software I need)
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as for windows
(http://www.oinc.net/B5/Enc/images/kosh.jpg)
They are a dieing operating system, we should let them pass.
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Linux's support is defined by commercial use by businesses, not home users. Hardware and software makers do not get their money from home users, they get majority of their revenues from businesses.
Name me a piece of software and I will name you it's OSS replacement (Which is often superior)
Businesses don't use open-source, open-source is not trusted and is unreliable. And unreliability comes from the fact that the software is free, it does not bring food to the table and the programmer is free to quit programming it anytime. There is no true guarantee of technical support.
I don't know if there is any comparable open-source software to AutoCAD for example. But guess twice if businesses will buy AutoCAD or download open-source alternative. They will go with AutoCAD.
yes, don't forget WINE - most of your "ZOMG! gotta have this application! it doesn't run on linux!" things run in wine, including many games
"Maybe it works, maybe not" is not what businesses want to hear. Any emulator is unreliable.
PS: making your ATI card work on linux is laughably trivial. I have less problems getting my card working on Fedora Core 5 than I do on windows
I have an ATI card. After installing FC5, installation went fine and post-installation configuration as well. However, where login screen was supposed to be, there was black screen instead. (K)Ubuntu graphical installer presents a black screen as well, I can get Ubuntu installed if I use text mode installer. After installation there is again black screen where login is supposed to be. I can install fglrx drivers when I boot Ubuntu into recovery mode, after that it works. Later I decided to give FC5 a new chance, this time around FC5 installer wouldn't even start, not even text mode installer. Re-burning the image did no good.
Every distro that has a graphical installer reeks of poor quality. Of the most popular distros only SuSE worked out-of-the-box without black screens and driver installations, sadly hardware video acceleration did not work and graphics were slow. Majority of the other distros will give a black screen either already during installation or when you're supposed to login for the first time. FC was the worst, the installer did not even start up the second time.
The bottom line is that open-source community is unreliable, businesses do not trust in anything that has not been made by another commercial business. I think it is called capitalism.
Edit: Business critical servers always run either Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) or Windows Server. RHEL is backed by Red Hat as a company, Red Hat supports their product.
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Fury and M$ sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. Okay that was very childish but what else do you expect from me. To be perfectly honest Microsoft do have the right to prevent unauthorised use of their software. Also what they are planning does not prevent you using an out of the box copy of Windows and running it. So really I fail to see what all the fuss is about. You want to make use of their free update service, you pay for their operating system. I'd say that's more than fair.
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I'm waiting for google OS. :D
QFT
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So really I fail to see what all the fuss is about.
I think the problem here was that WGA is causing (technical) problems to even those who use legal copies. Other than that, WGA is fine, pirates don't have a say.
I'm waiting for google OS. :D
QFT
Yay, another linux distro? Don't you think we already have more than enough of them? In fact, besides of Apple coming to PC market with OS X, the best change of linux ever succeeding in workstation/desktop market is Red Hat coming with a desktop version of their RHEL. At the moment that is Fedora Core, but since its not supported by Red Hat, it's good for nothing. What linux needs is the distro, not yet another distro.
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It's a shame how much problems WGA causes, I wouldn't really care as long as it works and does not cause problems, but this does not seem to be the case.
"Anti Piracy" schemes like this usually only hurt paying customers, as pirates usually have a way around it.
As for switching to linux, that is quite a laughable idea.
Then again if my perfectly legitimate copy of Windows on my laptop does get broken what do I have to lose?
The issue with Linux not being run on many desktops does have quite a lot to do with the anti-competative, monopolistic practices of M$.
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Yet another reason (http://technocrat.net/d/2006/6/30/5032) reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.
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sounds like your problems are hardware oriented - not OSS
Edit: Business critical servers always run either Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) or Windows Server. RHEL is backed by Red Hat as a company, Red Hat supports their product.
O'RLY?
tell that to our server admins who have a $50K server cluster all running FC4
it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.
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Yet another reason (http://technocrat.net/d/2006/6/30/5032) reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.
bull**** - you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.
i don't know what you have been smoking and how you could possibly ignore pretty much the entire history of patent trolling, but you've done that pretty well.
software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art. The failings of the US patent office are well documented.
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AFAIK Cisco tend to use Solaris/Linux for the internal file servers.
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Fury and M$ sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. Okay that was very childish but what else do you expect from me. To be perfectly honest Microsoft do have the right to prevent unauthorised use of their software. Also what they are planning does not prevent you using an out of the box copy of Windows and running it. So really I fail to see what all the fuss is about. You want to make use of their free update service, you pay for their operating system. I'd say that's more than fair.
here's the problems
1) when they bought the product (windows) it didn't phone home
2) microsoft is saying "if you don't update your product we're going to render it useless" - that basically comes out to this - user bought product A, companyi s forcing them to exchange it for product B or they will destroy product A (render it useless) - that's destruction of property (and no the EULA cannot allow them to do that - EULAs are of dubious enforcability)
3) False-positives - rendering useless valid copies of windows (destruction of property)
4) privacy concerns
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Kazan, you could have used a single post for all these posts.
tell that to our server admins who have a $50K server cluster all running FC4
I have mostly seen FC being used in virtual servers while the superserver itself is RHEL.
it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.
All this time I have been talking about business use, not home use. Its not like anyone cares what OS I use at home.
software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art. The failings of the US patent office are well documented.
I agree, but its not like software patents are going to disappear.
you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.
That's true, but what happens when a patent owner pulls carpet from under an open-source software? It falls hard unless it can remove the infringing code and replace it with something else. Should that happen to an important software used in business critical environment, the company is in trouble and cannot afford that possibility. A software firm can just pay and everyone are happy.
But this is again one of these non-ending topics which cannot be won by either side, so I rest my case.
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it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.
All this time I have been talking about business use, not home use. Its not like anyone cares what OS I use at home.
so. am. I.
software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art. The failings of the US patent office are well documented.
I agree, but its not like software patents are going to disappear.
they can be ruled invalid
you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.
That's true, but what happens when a patent owner pulls carpet from under an open-source software? It falls hard unless it can remove the infringing code and replace it with something else. Should that happen to an important software used in business critical environment, the company is in trouble and cannot afford that possibility. A software firm can just pay and everyone are happy.
But this is again one of these non-ending topics which cannot be won by either side, so I rest my case.
if a software patent does get judged against an OSS application (extremely unlikely) - they simply recode - it's not that difficult. Same thing that happens with proprietary code. Except in the case of the OSS software the patent holder doesn't get awarded any money because people weren't making money off the idea.
Plus - firms are offering insurance against any such situation
there is a very good reason why no OSS software has been killed off by patent trolls to date
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[11:45] 104706158: who's this?
[11:45] Kazan: kazan
[11:45] Kazan: this fury?
[11:46] 104706158: yes, you need something?
[11:46] *** "Keeper" signed on at Fri Jun 30 11:46:18 2006.
[11:46] Kazan: yeah
[11:46] Kazan: to smack you upside the head
[11:46] Kazan: and ask you to cut the crap
[11:47] Kazan: you don't have to use OSS, but making up dishonest and disingenious claims abotu them before you're employed by a firm that fellates microsoft is simply reprehensible
[11:48] Fury: If you are referring to the open-source topic, I have no intention to continue discussing as it will lead to nowhere. I have posted my final message about that to the forums and I will leave it at that.
[11:48] Kazan: how unsuprising
[11:48] Kazan: cannot defend your FUD so you run
[11:48] Kazan: how much did you sell your honor out for?
[11:49] Fury: Ah, and now you're trying to provoke me to continue pointless flaming.
[11:50] Kazan: now i'm trying to provoke you to be honest
[11:51] Fury: So you are saying that your view on the matter is the only true one and all other points of views are wrong, is that right? :)
[11:51] Fury: I wish it would be so black and white for a chance
[11:53] Kazan: no
[11:53] Kazan: i'm saying that you're being disingenious
[11:53] Kazan: your posts show a lack of understanding of OSS and the legal liabilties of it
[11:54] Kazan: the strengths of the model, the actual realities of it
[11:54] Kazan: and many of your criticisms of OSS are criticisms of software in generally irreguardless of development model
[11:54] Kazan: and you completely ignore the fact that it bites both ways - at oss and at css
[11:55] Kazan: infact proprietary software is the real target of patent trolls
[11:55] Kazan: due to the fact they can often extort money out of a firm instead of that firm taking the time to stand up to the patent troll in cuort and get their patent (rightly) ruled invalid
[11:58] Fury: You're missing the point I was making the whole time. The point was that businesses/companies/corporations have not adopted open-source operating systems or software in their desktop and workstation environments. In these environments both Windows and even Macs with OS X are used, including proprietary software such as AutoCAD.
[12:01] Kazan: and about that you are flat out wrong
[12:02] Kazan: more than 50% of your desktops here are linux machines
[12:02] Kazan: 100% of our servers are linux machines
[12:02] Kazan: if yuo pay attention to the news you see other companies have gone 100% linux
[12:02] Kazan: including very large ones
[12:02] Kazan: and GOVERNMENTS (especially german) are moving to linux
[12:04] Fury: I believe it when I see it with my own eyes, so far I have not seen a single desktop or workstation running any linux and that has been used for business software and not for personal stuff. And I have seen many. News can say whatever they want, some of these news are to scare big bad MS anyway and some of these moves happen "in the near future".
[12:05] Kazan: well you're obviously walking around with blinders on
[12:06] Kazan: http://www.aaxnet.com/design/linux2.html'
[12:06] Fury: But if the desktop is running generic software such as word or excel and hardly nothing more than that, you could run whatever os on desktops like that.
[12:06] Kazan: oh.. btw
[12:06] Kazan: you're forgetting about google
[12:06] Kazan: and dreamworks
[12:06] Kazan: and ilm
[12:06] Kazan: and burlington coat factor
[12:06] Kazan: ha
[12:06] Kazan: gotta list for you
[12:10] Kazan: At the same time, industry leaders IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people ), Oracle (nasdaq: ORCL - news - people ), Intel (nasdaq: INTC - news - people ) and others have committed resources--in IBM's case billions of dollars--to Linux marketing, support and development. Roughly 10% of Dell Computer's (nasdaq: DELL - news - people ) servers are sold with Linux pre-installed, according to the company.
[12:11] Fury: I don't know what google and whatever use and I don't really care either way, I care about firms I have worked or work for indirectly or directly, and they do not use linux anywhere else except servers, where linux are far superior to windows anyway.
[12:12] Kazan: so basically what you're saying is: you're going to ignore fact as long as you don't have to see it with your own eyes
[12:12] Kazan: how enlightening
[12:13] Fury: Could very well be so, I vote with my feet or however the saying goes.
[12:13] Kazan: well denying the truth simply because you haven't worked with one of the big companies that is using it is simply dishonest
[12:13] Kazan: and worse - making up claims and acting like certain things only affect OSS when it affects are software are downright dishonest
[12:14] Kazan: oh btw
[12:14] Kazan: SCO just got OWNED today
[12:14] Kazan: http://www.forbes.com/home/technology/2006/06/29/ibm-sco-linux_cz_dl_0629ibm.html
[12:15] Fury: Ugh, SCO is still going on it? What a bunch of ****tards.
[12:16] Kazan: nice tidbit here
[12:16] Kazan: undreds of companies using Linux as an embedded operating system in hardware devices also would be hurt, as well as thousands of companies around the world that use Linux servers to power Web sites and handle other tasks. These include top Wall Street firms and companies such as Google (nasdaq: GOOG - news - people ), which operates hundreds of thousands of Linux-based servers.
[12:18] Fury: I guess the comparison between open-source and proprietary came off looking wrong. What I mean that most open-source softwares do not have a solid backing up in which businesses could trust. I think that's what worries most businesses and which is why of all linux distros RHEL is the most common in businesses. FC and others may be used in less critical environments such as virtual servers.
[12:19] Kazan: our servers are not virtual servers
[12:19] Kazan: our servers are enterprise class production environment hosting revenue generating web applications for eGovernment servicing
[12:19] Kazan: (to use marketing-speak)
[12:19] Fury: And you're using FC? Ugh... seriously...
[12:19] Kazan: yes seriously
[12:19] Kazan: with 100% uptime
[12:19] Kazan: zero security metrics warnings
[12:20] Kazan: zero successful penetrations of our applications
[12:20] Kazan: if a server does get penetrated we just reboot it - they're running off liveCDs
[12:20] Kazan: we need to add more hardware to the cluster for extremely high load?
[12:21] Kazan: hook a new box into the cluster's network - insert the appropriate liveCD for the job we want to box to do, boot up
[12:21] Kazan: 30 seconds after booting up it will be automatically actively participating in load balancing
[12:22] Fury: I have to say that is quite a feat considering that FC is in the end a testbed for RHEL
[12:22] Kazan: as for the fact that many corporate ccustomers flock to RHEL - we don't mind
[12:22] Kazan: despite being "test bed" FC is extremely stable
[12:23] Kazan: all our developers run linux - all but one of them use fedora core
[12:23] Kazan: on our desktop machines
[12:23] Kazan: i run linux at home on a multimedia computer
[12:28] Kazan: the only barriers that really remain to linux adoptions are: inertia, FUD, anticompetative practices
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Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.
if you like your linux, thats good. but keep it to yourself. do not arse people to go over to linux or waste time arguing why it might be better or worse than any software that people or companies actually pay for.
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Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.
Apparently you do need my help since you cannot be bothered to ask someone who may know what they're doing.
It's not OSS'es fault that you're inept and stubborn about it!
Fedora doesn't come with the mp3 decoding plugin for XMMS because frauenhofner's BS wanting $0.25 per. So just go to fedorafaq.org and follow their instructions!
http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3
if you like your linux, thats good. but keep it to yourself. do not arse people to go over to linux or waste time arguing why it might be better or worse than any software that people or companies actually pay for.
I'll argue with whomever I choose - especially when their argument against linux is misinformed, dishonest or merely their own incompetance and inability to RTFM
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Yet another reason (http://technocrat.net/d/2006/6/30/5032) reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.
Software patents is a poor reason for avoiding it, since they aren't even legal.
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Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.
Apparently you do need my help since you cannot be bothered to ask someone who may know what they're doing.
It's not OSS'es fault that you're inept and stubborn about it!
Fedora doesn't come with the mp3 decoding plugin for XMMS because frauenhofner's BS wanting $0.25 per. So just go to fedorafaq.org and follow their instructions!
http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3
weeell, guess what. i'm not using fedora. its not the problem with playback, its the fact that everytime i try to import more than one file, XMMS crashes horridly. also, who the **** put you in charge of the world? linux is a thing good for poking around with when you've got nothing better to do, but if you need something done, use windows. or at least thats my case. if you can use it for something serious, my hat is off to you, but i cannot be bothered to switch over to gimp and blender just cause linux is whatnot. i've got my stuff on windows, and thats all i need.
and lets face it, people are reluctant to try linux cause its a "bit" intimidating for the begginer. its easier to go on to any windows based software and windows themselves, cause people are familliar with it.
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Well, this seems to be warming up nicely now......
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weeell, guess what. i'm not using fedora. its not the problem with playback, its the fact that everytime i try to import more than one file, XMMS crashes horridly.
interesting, file a bug report
linux is a thing good for poking around with when you've got nothing better to do, but if you need something done, use windows. or at least thats my case.
a case that you cannot defend reasonably - i get much more done when working with a linux machine that I ever get done in one session at a windows machine. Linux machine stability > *, linux machine virus vulernatbility: next to none existance (and not just becuase they don't write virii for linux).
I don't care what you use for personal use - but i'm not going to stand by and let you defame a superior product based upon your own inability to manage it. Your XMMS problem was almost certainly already fixed, you just needed to run your update program.
if you can use it for something serious, my hat is off to you, but i cannot be bothered to switch over to gimp and blender just cause linux is whatnot. i've got my stuff on windows, and thats all i need.
Maya is native to linux
Photoshop CS (CS1 aka 8.0) runs in wine under several distros - here is the AppDB entry http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=1815
GIMP is actually more powerful than Photoshop from what i'm told - just has a steeper learning curve
and lets face it, people are reluctant to try linux cause its a "bit" intimidating for the begginer. its easier to go on to any windows based software and windows themselves, cause people are familliar with it.
actually a properly configured linux system that's already setup (like most windows PCs come to home users) are perfectly easy to use. I've plopped my grandma down in front of a FC4 laptop and she had no problem getting around
my fiancee ran nothing but linux for 9 months and FC1 (went back to windows to play EQ - technically i could move her back to linux if i wanted)
KDE is perfectly easy to navigate around for the software challenged.
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Businesses don't use open-source, open-source is not trusted and is unreliable. And unreliability comes from the fact that the software is free, it does not bring food to the table and the programmer is free to quit programming it anytime. There is no true guarantee of technical support.
First of all, you're flat out wrong for generalizing. There is plenty of open source software that is supported and funded by businesses. Just yesterday I found some open source accounting software (called Quasar) that is commercially supported. You're bull****ting out of your ass.
I don't know if there is any comparable open-source software to AutoCAD for example. But guess twice if businesses will buy AutoCAD or download open-source alternative. They will go with AutoCAD.
Not sure if there are any fully-featured competitors, but there are competitors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_computer-aided_design_software
However, you just picked one of the hardest markets for OSS to penetrate. Autodesk has a firm monopolistic grip, especially on CAD file formats. The Open Design Alliance (http://www.opendesign.com/) is trying to do something about that.
"Maybe it works, maybe not" is not what businesses want to hear. Any emulator is unreliable.
Firstly, it isn't an emulator. Secondly, games have nothing to do with businesses so you're not even addressing what Kazan was arguing about. And third, if businesses want support for wine they can go buy Crossover Office. Crossover is a commercially supported wine variant for use with office apps.
PS: making your ATI card work on linux is laughably trivial. I have less problems getting my card working on Fedora Core 5 than I do on windows
To add to what Kazan said, it's worth mentioning that the OSS drivers for Nvidia and ATI do support direct rendering (AKA hardware acceleration).
GIMP is actually more powerful than Photoshop from what i'm told - just has a steeper learning curve
That's not quite true yet. GIMP is still missing a lot of features professionals need from a graphics program (e.g. proper color management). It's still pretty useful for casual users though.
KDE is perfectly easy to navigate around for the software challenged.
Eww KDE. </flamewar> ;)
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Eww KDE. </flamewar> ;)
yeah, but i have Linus on my side
pwnd :D
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Guys, get a god damned grip. I see fanbois on both sides in here. The way I see it:
Both Linux and Windows are acceptable desktop OS for general office use.
For web design, again both are acceptable.
For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.
For bespoke solutions, it matters not. Either will do.
For many heavy duty graphics apps, as has been pointed out, Linux lacks a lot of driver support and therefore limits performance. Windows wins.
For embedded or "thin" clients, Linux is a favorable option depending on (again) whether the solution being developed is bespoke or COST.
Now hug and make up. All of you. And no tongues.
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Guys, get a god damned grip. I see fanbois on both sides in here. The way I see it:
the linux side of the argument doesn't have to make things up to support their side of the argument
Both Linux and Windows are acceptable desktop OS for general office use.
yup
For web design, again both are acceptable.
yup
For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.
nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time
For many heavy duty graphics apps, as has been pointed out, Linux lacks a lot of driver support and therefore limits performance. Windows wins.
false - nvidia and ATI drivers run just fine under linux and several windows native games perform better under linux w/ wine than they do under native windows w/ directx9 (some vice versa as well)
openGL performance ( a true comparision) on both platforms tends to favor the properly tuned linux machine
For embedded or "thin" clients, Linux is a favorable option depending on (again) whether the solution being developed is bespoke or COST.
linux are vastly superior for thin clients - KDE's built in browser is Acid2 (Mac OS/X native web client uses the same code from KDE), Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?
Also linux is superior for security - especially on this
Now hug and make up. All of you. And no tongues.
lol
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For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.
nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time
Or better - Qt (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt). Cross-platform OSS library with commercial support that's used to build Opera and KDE. It is, in my opinion, the best documented and useable graphics toolkit in existence. Has a nifty GUI designer for RAD too, demo video here (http://www.trolltech.com/trolltech/products/qt/learnmore/video/demos/browser).
Had to put that plug in 'cause Qt is just so awesome. ;)
Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?
There used to be an ad-supported version and a no-ads version that cost money (around $30 I think). Nowadays it's free and ad-less for all because Opera gets enough profit from Google.
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For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.
nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time
Or better - Qt (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt). Cross-platform OSS library with commercial support that's used to build Opera and KDE. It is, in my opinion, the best documented and useable graphics toolkit in existence. Has a nifty GUI designer for RAD too, demo video here (http://www.trolltech.com/trolltech/products/qt/learnmore/video/demos/browser).
Had to put that plug in 'cause Qt is just so awesome. ;)
Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?
There used to be an ad-supported version and a no-ads version that cost money (around $30 I think). Nowadays it's free and ad-less for all because Opera gets enough profit from Google.
QT is also comercially encumbered and requires additional installation packages on windows. wxWidgets's implementation on windows and MacOS uses the native underlying system calls and for unixlike systems there is wxGTK and wxUniversal
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QT is also comercially encumbered and requires additional installation packages on windows.
Kinda. It's OSS on all platforms. However, you need to buy a commercial license if you plan to make a commercial product.
wxWidgets's implementation on windows and MacOS uses the native underlying system calls and for unixlike systems there is wxGTK and wxUniversal
That's true, I think Qt just clones the widget themes instead of being completely native.
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well, unless i'm blind or something, wxwidgets would be nice to have, but i cant find a precompiled windows binary for it. can anyone help? apparently i'm only able to find the source....
i need to compile a small proggie i found on the net...
Kazan, i'm giving up on my arguments with you, i'm just a)too lazy to argue about it anymore and b)i got better things to do for the time being...
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well, unless i'm blind or something, wxwidgets would be nice to have, but i cant find a precompiled windows binary for it. can anyone help? apparently i'm only able to find the source....
There aren't any binaries. The packages on the website are for developers.
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QT is also comercially encumbered and requires additional installation packages on windows.
Kinda. It's OSS on all platforms. However, you need to buy a commercial license if you plan to make a commercial product.
wxWidgets's implementation on windows and MacOS uses the native underlying system calls and for unixlike systems there is wxGTK and wxUniversal
That's true, I think Qt just clones the widget themes instead of being completely native.
you need no special license to use wxWidgets for comercial applications - it's LGPL, just link against it's dynamic link libraries if you want to write closed source
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well, unless i'm blind or something, wxwidgets would be nice to have, but i cant find a precompiled windows binary for it. can anyone help? apparently i'm only able to find the source....
i need to compile a small proggie i found on the net...
Kazan, i'm giving up on my arguments with you, i'm just a)too lazy to argue about it anymore and b)i got better things to do for the time being...
as kamikazi said - there aren't precompiled binaries except when distributed with other packages (PCS2 statically links against it)
wxWidgets is an API, so if that program doesn't use the API then wxWidgets won't help you
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sooo... what can i use then to compile stuff, other than VisualStudio express... which i loathe and despise.
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There are lots of compilers out there. Try looking on Google for them.
EDIT:
Ok, got some updates. The rumor has been "officially denied".
There's a piece of malware that imitates it (more proof that anti-piracy tools are actually just anti-consumer tools).
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/06/30/HNwormmsantipiracy_1.html
and also M$ is getting sued over WGA by people saying it is spyware.
http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/3213
Pretty interesting twists......