Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on August 19, 2006, 08:18:22 pm
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I know this will spark a ****storm of flames and debate, but can we keep the political half of this aircraft under wraps? I just thought I should show this video; this aircraft's maneuverability is insane:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GMGk1Mny-Y8
Read this article as well, if you're interested :):
http://www.airspacemag.com/issues/2006/august-september/FEATURE-raptor.php
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Cool, what I really wish to see is one of those F-35 flying, altough its not as cool as some of the things those Sukhoi fighters can do.
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...this aircraft's maneuverability is insane
It's also the first aircraft capable of executing a J-turn. Basically, it can go one direction, cut it's engines, flip 180 degrees, so it's pointing the way it came from, then go to full power. Really nasty if you happen to be on the F-22's 6 o'clock.
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Yeah, pretty neat, but if you really want air tricks look up the X-31 EFM. :D
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So it can flip like a Viper? :D
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I do think that the F-22 plus the AIM-9X will be absolute killer in close in combat. Stealth won't matter too much at that point but the capability of the aircraft to manuever in insanely high angles of attack and the capability of the missile to exceed that significantly will mean an incredible close in ability that US fighters haven't had much of an edge in for a while. The Su-27 with R-77 missiles has had that solidly in its grasp for a while...but no longer.
Interested to see the first F-35 production model flying at some point as well.
Which reminds me but the F-35 is now known as the Lightning II as well. Just recently named. Drawing from the heritage of Lockheed's P-38 Lightning and English Electrics Lightning. EE becoming BAe later on.
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
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The comments on that youtube video are quite amusing.
This one being my personal favorite.
it does not use outdated technology but copies other countrys old ideas and then the teams that built it say god bless america.when they should be saying god bless africa or sweeden or russia.
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
It does... moreso than the current stealth "fighter"
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The comments on that youtube video are quite amusing.
This one being my personal favorite.
it does not use outdated technology but copies other countrys old ideas and then the teams that built it say god bless america.when they should be saying god bless africa or sweeden or russia.
Ever heard of a company named Saab?
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
They have a saying about how a non-stealth aircraft fighting a high-performance stealth aircraft would turn out: Clubbing baby seal.
Alternatively, consider trying to fight in a boxing match where you don't even realize your opponent is in the ring.
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The comments on that youtube video are quite amusing.
This one being my personal favorite.
it does not use outdated technology but copies other countrys old ideas and then the teams that built it say god bless america.when they should be saying god bless africa or sweeden or russia.
Ever heard of a company named Saab?
Yes, but I've never heard of them doing anything truly new either.
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
Yes it does. If you notice the shape of the aircraft, its designed much like the F-22 with IR shielded engine exhaust and an intake shape that shields the radar from bouncing off the turbines. Apparently depending on the level of technology trade with the nation buying the aircraft will determine how stealth the F-35 is. So some countries like Britain, Italy and Canada if we buy them will have the best stealth signature while another country outside of the big contributing members and maybe not quite as friendly to the US will only get partial stealth.
The merits of stealth are questionable these days. Planes like the Typhoon and Gripen also have stealth characteristics that make them far and above more stealth than anything they are replacing. The size of the radar signatures of new generation aircraft are much smaller on the whole. The F-22 and F-35 take that to the highest possible level with the smallest of signatures. It doesn't mean they are completely invisible. A sophisticated ground radar tracking system is likely to be able to roughly distinguish a stealth aircraft. In the future apparently radar stations will have technology that can detect wake turbulence from the aircrafts engines so having a generaly knowledge that they are there will still exist. But thats all ground radar...putting that into a jet fighter or missile will be hard.
Nonetheless...they aren't impervious. If you got into visual range its going to be essentially like fighting any other aircraft. With a good missile seeker you'll still be able to down a stealth aircraft. Particularly using a IR missile. One Air Force General was quoted as saying that a Mig-21 pilot, if he was on the tail of a B-2 Stealth bomber would still be able to shoot at the B-2 using a AA-2 Atoll missile which is a very old weapon. So they aren't totally invisibile...but it gives you an edge.
If you're talking modern warfare where the terrorists might have a primitive shoulder launched radar guided SAM then stealth is a huge benefit because its almost impossible for him to get a lock. Against an enemy with the very latest radar, datalink, and SAM missiles...he'll have a chance but it'll be very hard. Which is why the F-22 and F-35 are so capable in other ways as conventional aircraft.
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
Both the F-22 and F-35 have some stealth capability. But the F-22 has a much more...interesting...form of stealth. It can be fitted with a chameleon skin. It works by having a series of photosensors embedded in the skin. These sensors pick up the frequency of ambient light. The color frequency is then sent to a computer when then runs a specific current through the chameleon skin. The skin then changes color to match the surrounding environment. The color can be adjusted by varying the current put through the skin.
Now the enemy can't see you, even if they are lucky enough to get on your six.
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I just think that development on technologies to counter stealth will definitely pick up now and that in some time both will nulify each other making both useless. I already know of the stealth capabilities of the F-22, I just didnt know much about the F-35 since its new.
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there was a air show around here recently, the day before I was driveing home when I noticed a fighter jet doing manuvers, I had a hard time identifying it at first untill I realised it was proobly an f22, after seeing the footage I'm sure that's what it was, and the thing could pull some manuvers! I almost got into a few wrecks watching the thing.
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Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
Both the F-22 and F-35 have some stealth capability. But the F-22 has a much more...interesting...form of stealth. It can be fitted with a chameleon skin. It works by having a series of photosensors embedded in the skin. These sensors pick up the frequency of ambient light. The color frequency is then sent to a computer when then runs a specific current through the chameleon skin. The skin then changes color to match the surrounding environment. The color can be adjusted by varying the current put through the skin.
Now the enemy can't see you, even if they are lucky enough to get on your six.
Never heard of that in all of the reading I've done on it...
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I've never heard about that skin either, although I've heard of it being tested (not on a real aircraft though).
In reply to:
Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
The F-35 does have stealth capabilties, and in fact I believe it will cost less than the F-22, although it lacks some of the more advanced features (supercruise being a major one I think).
And if the enemy can't see you, you can kill more with one aircraft than you could with ten ;)
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The F-35 does have stealth capabilties, and in fact I believe it will cost less than the F-22, although it lacks some of the more advanced features (supercruise being a major one I think).
And if the enemy can't see you, you can kill more with one aircraft than you could with ten ;)
A question then, I know the three variants of the F-35 use the same materials, what percentage I dont know for sure but I heard is near 80%, since each variant serves a specifical role, do all of them present the same level of stealth or do they vary between variants?
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I'm not quite sure, I haven't looked too much into it. I would assume that they're all close to the same stealth capacity, but don't quote me on that.
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The F-35 does have stealth capabilties, and in fact I believe it will cost less than the F-22, although it lacks some of the more advanced features (supercruise being a major one I think).
And if the enemy can't see you, you can kill more with one aircraft than you could with ten ;)
A question then, I know the three variants of the F-35 use the same materials, what percentage I dont know for sure but I heard is near 80%, since each variant serves a specifical role, do all of them present the same level of stealth or do they vary between variants?
I think its closer to 90% parts commonality. The F-35A and F-35C are nearly the same except for the wings (the 35C having much larger ones for Navy ops) and the F-35B looks mostly the same as the F-35A externally. I would expect that their stealth profiles will be similar. The F-35C might have a slightly enlarged signature because of the wings but I'm not an expert on that so I don't know how much of a real world difference it would make.
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I don't think the US gov wants people to know... that would sort of be asking for it.
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I have a question, when exactly is this going to be used in a real war?
Besides it doesn't matter, sooner or later SKYNET will come online and school our asses in the art of nuclear war anyway. :p
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I think its closer to 90% parts commonality. The F-35A and F-35C are nearly the same except for the wings (the 35C having much larger ones for Navy ops) and the F-35B looks mostly the same as the F-35A externally. I would expect that their stealth profiles will be similar. The F-35C might have a slightly enlarged signature because of the wings but I'm not an expert on that so I don't know how much of a real world difference it would make.
On that note, if I have read correctly only the B variant (the one for the Marines) will have VTOL capability, right ?
I can see why the Air Force doesn't need VTOL, but it sure would come in handy for the Navy variant too. Is it too expensive for the Navy, or do they just not need it ?
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Basically the VTOL option is nice, but not really necessary. VTOL launches require lighter weapons and fuel loads, and the F-35 is IIRC rather lighter then some of the other stuff that gets catapult-launched (Hawkeye and its cargo cousin the Greyhound) anyways. A lot of carrier air wings include a Marine squadron anyways, so if push comes to shove the option for VTOL takeoff would still be there if needed.
What I'm really curious about is if the proposed Osprey variant to take over from the SH-60 series is ever going to get off the ground.
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The F-35 does have stealth capabilties, and in fact I believe it will cost less than the F-22, although it lacks some of the more advanced features (supercruise being a major one I think).
Both the F-22 and F-35 cost a small fortune. But the F-22 is cheaper, I believe. Of course, that's a relative term. This info is old though...
Does the F-35 has any stealth capabilities? Honestly, how much worth is stealth today? The costs of the F-22 alone are absurd, the F-35 wont be cheap in any fo its versions as well and, IMO, inst taking down the enemy more important than not beeing seen?
Both the F-22 and F-35 have some stealth capability. But the F-22 has a much more...interesting...form of stealth. It can be fitted with a chameleon skin. It works by having a series of photosensors embedded in the skin. These sensors pick up the frequency of ambient light. The color frequency is then sent to a computer when then runs a specific current through the chameleon skin. The skin then changes color to match the surrounding environment. The color can be adjusted by varying the current put through the skin.
Now the enemy can't see you, even if they are lucky enough to get on your six.
Never heard of that in all of the reading I've done on it...
It's not well publicized. It was only recently declassified. I have...connections...
I have a question, when exactly is this going to be used in a real war?
The F-22 is undergoing op eval right now. It should be fully operational in a year or two. Last deployment date I heard was sometime in late 2007. The F-35 doesn't even fly...yet. Curse my old info!
What I'm really curious about is if the proposed Osprey variant to take over from the SH-60 series is ever going to get off the ground.
Osprey variant? Never heard about that...What is it?
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The F-35 does fly...there's quite a few videos showing it off.
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The X-35 has flown several times. Its now been retired and is going to a museum somewhere. I forget which. The F-35 has not yet flown but it will be in the next few months as I understand it.
The F-22 is far far far more expensive than the F-35. The F-35 is, in general, meant to be like what the F-16 was when the F-15 was introduced. The F-15 was expensive but the F-16 was cheap so they had a first and second rate fighter. Ultimately what happened is the F-16's role expanded into ground attack and became a multi-role aircraft. Its capabilities were impressive and it kept being expanded. I'd daresay that in some respects the F-16 is just as capable or moreso than the F-15. Each has their place.
With the F-22 the concept is the same. The F-22 is the premier out and out fighter. The F-35 is a multirole attack platform perfect for the US forces but also for its allies. Its a force multiplier basically because the F-35 uses some of the same datalink technology so American F-35s and F-22s operating alongside Allied F-35s get a massive combined overview of the battlefield. Even aircraft not emiting radar (and thus not showing up on the RWR of the enemy aircraft) have the ability to track the enemy through the datalink.
I did some reading over the last few days. The F-22 and F-35 to a lesser extent are more stealthy than the F-117. The F-117 is barely stealthy in comparison to the new aircraft. What neither F-22 nor F-35 have is full stealth against all bands of radar. Advanced ground radar can still track them but aircraft radar cannot. Even with tracking, they are still difficult to lock. So modern stealth warfare is not so much about being invisible but being a hazy shadow...if there are alot of shadows its going to take a while to try and sort them out.
Throw in some UAV's with similar signatures and you'll have a hell of a confusing mess of a radar screen. Thats the idea.
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IIRC a Nighthawk would show up on radar with about the same signature as a seagull. The F-22 and -35 are probably similar.
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IIRC a Nighthawk would show up on radar with about the same signature as a seagull. The F-22 and -35 are probably similar.
From what distance? 150km or 15km? Remember, stealth just reduces the range an aircraft can be spotted by radar.
Ice talked about advanced ground radar. The best way to detech stealth aircraft are long wavelenght radars - like 1950s stuff and so on! - but they are very large and practically immobile. The smaller radars have to be really powerful to "burn" through stealth and, because a radar can be spotted from greater distance than the radar itself can spot objects, it becomes painfully visible.
Then there's multistatic radars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar). And of course there are was to try to detech the IR signature, EM transmissions, air turbulunces or just the shape.
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All stealth aircraft have masked IR signatures. I'm suprised though, everyone's comparing these aircraft to the Nighthawk, why not the Spirit? I know the Spirit is actually a huge bomber, but it's more contemporary so it's a better comparison.
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All stealth aircraft have masked IR signatures. I'm suprised though, everyone's comparing these aircraft to the Nighthawk, why not the Spirit? I know the Spirit is actually a huge bomber, but it's more contemporary so it's a better comparison.
Spirit is more contemporary; Nighthawk is closer, although still not very close, to the purpose of F-22 and F-35. You can compare how these planes would perform certain tasks, but that's about it.
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Osprey variant? Never heard about that...What is it?
They tentatively called it the SV-22, back before there was the ****storm over the Osprey's supposed lack of safety. It was to have taken over the role currently played by the SH-60F Oceanhawk, and may have eventually spread as far down as the Ticonderoga and Spruance classes. It would have offered greatly increased payload and flight time over the SH-60 series, including dipping sonar, nearly twice the store of sonobouys, twice the ordinance load (two Mk46/Mk50 vs four), real capability for surface attack (with a pair of Harpoon 1Cs instead of the puny Penguin Mk2s the SH-60s can carry), and a greater capablity for delivering cargo/personnel in VertRep.
I can't confirm its current status, but I think the program got axed. It may come back like the Osprey itself has though.
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The F-22 is undergoing op eval right now. It should be fully operational in a year or two. Last deployment date I heard was sometime in late 2007. The F-35 doesn't even fly...yet. Curse my old info!
I never asked when it would fly, I basically asked when it would actually intercept something other than a few billion dollars.
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The F-22 is undergoing op eval right now. It should be fully operational in a year or two. Last deployment date I heard was sometime in late 2007. The F-35 doesn't even fly...yet. Curse my old info!
I never asked when it would fly, I basically asked when it would actually intercept something other than a few billion dollars.
F-22 is bought for two reasons:
1. To actually prevent a situation where it might be used in anger against other airplanes (deterrance), and
2) to preserve a technological edge, were some unforseen events suddenly to take place.
Things change fast, and that's why the armies generally like to have the most modern toys available - if something just goes terribly wrong, they have a trump card. Just in case.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDt9KY0xDHY
This is equally cool, but it is far less expensive.
2) to preserve a technological edge, were some unforseen events suddenly to take place.
Things change fast, and that's why the armies generally like to have the most modern toys available - if something just goes terribly wrong, they have a trump card. Just in case.
On the flipside, where are they going to get funding for this when the economy collapses? It's only a matter of time before the Pentagon's budget has the rug pulled out from under it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDt9KY0xDHY
This is equally cool, but it is far less expensive.
On the flipside, where are they going to get funding for this when the economy collapses? It's only a matter of time before the Pentagon's budget has the rug pulled out from under it.
This is exciting! Prove this.
edit: regarding Berkut:
This is somewhat an eternal debate which never ends. When Russian airplanes have as good fire control, comms, radars, EVERYTHING, then we're talking. Manouverability has precious little to do with modern air combat, especially if facing truly stealth platforms. Pretty much everything we know about most modern Russian airplanes is hype and speculation.
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.... Pretty much everything we know about most modern Russian airplanes is hype and speculation.
Same goes for US tech as well.....
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.... Pretty much everything we know about most modern Russian airplanes is hype and speculation.
Same goes for US tech as well.....
The same tech different states buy and use regularly, including Finland? US has some ridiculous tech that is nowhere near completion, but what the have is usually quite well-known and tested (most of their modern equipment is in use in several armies) and F-35 will/would/could be too (unless someone pulls the plug on the entire program).
The most well-known Russian export fighters are Su-27 series. This includes Su-30 and -33 and stuff like that. Those are the fighters we know and that are in active duty around the world. Based on what the western intelligence knows about them, they have impressive airframes and unprecented manouverability but in terms of electronics fall seriously behind their western counterparts.
Berkut is a testbed for various technologies, it is not scheluded for production or export, and if it ever were the changes would be drastic. It would be better to drool about MiG 1.44 which is still on prototype stage.
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This is exciting! Prove this
The program cost for the F-22 is something along the lines of $90+ billion....
The total debt is $8.5+ trillion, and $300 billion is going to be added to it again soon. It's only a matter of time before China stops bankrolling projects like this. When that happens, then what?
Based on what the western intelligence knows about them, they have impressive airframes and unprecented manouverability but in terms of electronics fall seriously behind their western counterparts.
True, then again nothing that a good old refit can't take care of.
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This is exciting! Prove this
The program cost for the F-22 is something along the lines of $90+ billion....
The total debt is $8.5+ trillion, and $300 billion is going to be added to it again soon. It's only a matter of time before China stops bankrolling projects like this. When that happens, then what?
Then Chinese economy tanks. Why would they do something like that? US GDP is still growing.
Based on what the western intelligence knows about them, they have impressive airframes and unprecented manouverability but in terms of electronics fall seriously behind their western counterparts.
True, then again nothing that a good old refit can't take care of.
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Well the problem here is that the Western countries have a huge lead on knowhow and that's exactly what's keeping the Russians back. And airframes are quite complicated, not everything can be done with simple retrofits.
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Then Chinese economy tanks. Why would they do something like that? US GDP is still growing.
US economic growth is on borrowed time.
Well the problem here is that the Western countries have a huge lead on knowhow and that's exactly what's keeping the Russians back. And airframes are quite complicated, not everything can be done with simple retrofits.
True, but electrical systems can be ripped out and replaced. They could even integrate the new electrical systems into the existing design, so future Su/MiG whatevers would have that capability.
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Then Chinese economy tanks. Why would they do something like that? US GDP is still growing.
US economic growth is on borrowed time.
So is Chinese, ever more than US. And European, and Japanese, and damn everyone. Just how would US economy collapse and just why would China want to do something that removes their biggest sponsor and supporter? Talk about digging your own hole.
Well the problem here is that the Western countries have a huge lead on knowhow and that's exactly what's keeping the Russians back. And airframes are quite complicated, not everything can be done with simple retrofits.
True, but electrical systems can be ripped out and replaced. They could even integrate the new electrical systems into the existing design, so future Su/MiG whatevers would have that capability.
They are not cross-compatible. And it's not just wire and disks, it's the workshops and scientists and programs. Which are quite well protected. See the F-35 farce for an example.
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It's not a simple matter of just "refitting" an aircraft with more advanced components. First of all, you actually have to have those in the first place. Russia, for the most part, does not have that.
And the Berkut...god knows where that thing is. It's been around for what, ten years? I remember videos of it from quite awhile ago, yet no progress.
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So is Chinese, ever more than US. And European, and Japanese, and damn everyone. Just how would US economy collapse and just why would China want to do something that removes their biggest sponsor and supporter? Talk about digging your own hole.
One of the top buyers of US debt is Iran. Imagine they call up saying they want their money back...
China is now in the lead for buying US debt, Japan is some ways back now. Iran is growing its ownership of American debt...I'd be worried.
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Japan is some ways back now.
And yet, I recall it being in the trillions at one stage. At least, I hope so, as it's intergral to my plan for World Domination.
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Japan is some ways back now.
And yet, I recall it being in the trillions at one stage. At least, I hope so, as it's intergral to my plan for World Domination.
I'm sure your plan will succeed :)
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Japan is some ways back now.
And yet, I recall it being in the trillions at one stage. At least, I hope so, as it's intergral to my plan for World Domination.
I'm sure your plan will succeed :)
Just for that, you shall have control of Fiji in the New World Order.
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One of the top buyers of US debt is Iran. Imagine they call up saying they want their money back...
Where'd you hear this? IIRC sharia law prohibits this kind of thing for some reason or another, which means a lot of Mid-East countries have tons of money and no real presence in the finanicial world.
Or maybe I'm confusing buying debt with something else.
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One of the top buyers of US debt is Iran. Imagine they call up saying they want their money back...
Where'd you hear this? IIRC sharia law prohibits this kind of thing for some reason or another, which means a lot of Mid-East countries have tons of money and no real presence in the finanicial world.
Or maybe I'm confusing buying debt with something else.
Well I haven't done extensive research but it was on CNN the other night. TV makes everything true right!? I was a bit shocked to hear such a thing from CNN. I can't say for certain.