Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on December 05, 2006, 02:31:38 pm
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http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/nonlethal-gun-makes-you-wish-you-were-shot-with-bfg-219370.php
It took 10 years and a $40 million budget to make, but the Air Force has unveiled a new weapon it calls the Active Denial System. It's a nonlethal weapon that has been certified for use in Iraq as a means of crowd control. The ADS shoots a beam of high intensity millimeter waves, which in plain English means if you get in the beam's way, it'll feel like you're being dipped in lava. In fact, the pain is so intense, that the longest any human test subject could withstand the beam was 5 seconds, and a very small number of them walked away with redness and blisters from the beam's intense heat. (I'm sure they'll also develop tails and super powers from the beam's side effects as well).
Can't we just stick to normal guns? Because "non-lethal" weapons just promote abuse and over-use by trigger happy ****heads (see UCLA incident) who know they can get away home free because no permanent damage is (usually) done. I prefer normal, phyisical pain from a bullet or baton to high-tech pain that uses technology to make your existance as agonizing as possible.
Coming soon to a campus/protest/mall/prison/Gitmo/school near you. :doubt: :doubt:
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AFAIK, under the US guidelines they can use this on prisoners without it being torture........
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I'm curious as to what happens with other objects. If you are wearing an aluminum outfit would it still get ya? If not, lets mount these on the front of police cars or chase helicopters and blast the car in the high speed chase. Over the loud speaker say, 'Pull over or we turn your nuts into microwave popcorn'
:lol:
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Your agonizer please...
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I know this is slightly off the topic but it has a point to it so bear with me..
..but you know EMP weapons? I don't know precisely how they work but how come they don't affect the electrical impulses in our own bodies - but they do affect electronics?
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That's a good question. Maybe it's because since EMP devices work by overloading circuits with an electrical charge, and since humans don't have any conduit or charge-holding electronic cells that are able to be overloaded, they don't effect us?
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Precisely. As the EM-wave passes through a circuit, it induces a current within the circuit that overloads it. This happens because a circuit is a closed loop, and the charges in the circuit will experience a force as the EM field changes, thus causing the current in the circuit to change. The change in current vs. change in time is proportional to the area enclosed by the loop (among other factors), and the rate of change (flux) of the EM field. With a strong enough flux, like say, from an EMP, a circuit can easily overload and be ruined, or the electronic device attached to the circuit can be rendered useless as well.
Now I'm not totally sure about how the nerual connections in our brains work, but if they make closed loops, then I think they're simply too small and not able to carry enough charge (or carry charge in quite the same way) as a typical circuit, so they don't respond to EMP like electronics do.
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our nerves aren't prone to induced currents (not as much as solid pure metal anyway)
our nerves work via a complex combination of electrical and chemical intereactions.
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Ahh I see.
And there I was thinking I had cleverly invented a way to wipe whole populations off the map whilst leaving their homes, factories and so on intact.
I suppose I'm glad it doesn't work that way!
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Ahh I see.
And there I was thinking I had cleverly invented a way to wipe whole populations off the map whilst leaving their homes, factories and so on intact.
I suppose I'm glad it doesn't work that way!
Neutron Bomb ftw.
On a side note, i'd be interested in seeing if this weapon would still be effective from orbit. Would be one hell of an effective area-denial weapon.
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the Painstar!
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Well, though EM pulse does not really affect humans so far as to kill them, people who have had their heads inside strong magnetic fields have noticed flashes of light in their field of vision if they move their heads about.
I believe this happened to astronauts as they passed through magnetic fields...
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EMPs (electro-magnetic pulses) CAN kill humans. It just takes a really big charge to hurt us....
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Wouldn't need that much of a charge to get somebody if they had a PaceMaker....
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Too bad its a rendered image with grass hastily thrown in the background, and it's not coming from a certified Raytheon source...
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Hippo ftw.
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Well, if you check out the original news item, there are more pictures...
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72134-0.html?tw=rss.index
And yes, I saw something about this a while ago, and it looks extremely worrying to be honest.
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oooooo remote controlled torture, i need one of theese for my basement :D
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oooooo remote controlled torture, i need one of theese for my basement :D
:nervous:
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torturing people to keep them out of places, wow
chemical weapons to keep people from getting out of line, galvinization to keep the masses subdued, and now millimeter wave pain induction at range
gotta love mans ingenuity
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.
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Thing is, everybody thinks it's great because 'They won't use it on me, I'm a law abiding citizen'. Then a law gets passed that forces everyone to wear location transmitters, or the like. The public get up annoyed and demonstrate and out comes the ADS together with a cry of 'Where's your right to public assembly now peasants?'.
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Ahh I see.
And there I was thinking I had cleverly invented a way to wipe whole populations off the map whilst leaving their homes, factories and so on intact.
I suppose I'm glad it doesn't work that way!
Neutron Bomb ftw.
On a side note, i'd be interested in seeing if this weapon would still be effective from orbit. Would be one hell of an effective area-denial weapon.
Neutron bombs don't work that way. They're just low-yield tactical nukes with enhanced radiation, they still blow up nicely and cause destruction. They are essentially super-expensive antitank weapons.
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.
No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).
In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).
Thing is, everybody thinks it's great because 'They won't use it on me, I'm a law abiding citizen'. Then a law gets passed that forces everyone to wear location transmitters, or the like. The public get up annoyed and demonstrate and out comes the ADS together with a cry of 'Where's your right to public assembly now peasants?'.
First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.
Second: Like Tasers, Beanbags, Rubber Bullets, or good old fashioned Tear Gas can't do the EXACT SAME THING? Compared to those, ADS is a dream come true.
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you don't think something like that would get passed? The other day there was an article about a radio guy who went on a rant about how muslims should have to get tattoes, and wear a cresent on their clothes, and have special IDs, etc. He got a bunch of callers saying how awesome an idea of that was. At the end of his show he denounced every single person who had agreed with him and said something about that is exactly how the nazis could do what they did.
You can get anything passed in a State of Fear (oh.. double entendre :D)
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First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.
Not gonna happen because people have the right to public assembly. That was the whole point of the post.
The 'A' in ADS stands for 'Area', that is the difference. With those other weapons you could subdue an individual, but not a crowd. Once you have the ability to cause pain to large numbers of people without leaving any kind of mark, you have the power to control those people. Once you have the power to control those people, what exactly are they going to do to stop that law getting passed?
There have even been films that use that very technique, of long-distance pain-induction, as a means of control.
Even tear gas cannot have the same impact as this thing because there are marks left on the individual and longer term effects, that, in itself breeds sympathy. Also Tear Gas relies on wind speed/direction etc, it's not nearly as effective at controlling the masses as this would be.
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Smart radio guy. As for this latest new technological development. In many ways it worries me that these things don't do any permenant damage. It makes them just more likely to use them without justification.
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First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.
Not gonna happen because people have the right to public assembly. That was the whole point of the post.
The 'A' in ADS stands for 'Area', that is the difference. With those other weapons you could subdue an individual, but not a crowd. Once you have the ability to cause pain to large numbers of people without leaving any kind of mark, you have the power to control those people. Once you have the power to control those people, what exactly are they going to do to stop that law getting passed?
There have even been films that use that very technique, of long-distance pain-induction, as a means of control.
No it doesn't. ADS means Active Denial System. It's not some sort of "Area Weapon," it utilizes a beam less than a few inches wide, for christs sake. A person can withstand up to 5 seconds of exposure to it, and the instant their out of the beam, the effects disappear
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.
No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).
In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).
As I said, no evidence. In fact, is it even visible to recordings? Why do we need this? What is it useful for, except as a dedicated torture weapon, that the likes of water hoses aren't?
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My mistake on the name, however, take a look at the picture of what I am assuming is a mock up of an active system...
(http://www.wired.com/ly/wired/news/images/full/goodbyeweapon4_f.jpg)
(Hopefully I won't get deckered)
Does it look to you like they plan to keep it as a tight-band beam? From the way I read it, the prototype does that, but I don't think they plan to keep it that way. Also, 5 seconds is the maximum, I'm sure just sweeping it along a crowd would be enough to cause intense pain, even if shortlived. Finally, they are assuming that everyone in the crowd is healthy and aged between 17 and 30, which is the average age of a soldier.
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I think jetmech is talking about the weapon itself - not possible misuses. The weapon itself is a non-lethal weapon for deterrent purposes, kinda like mace or tear gas. I could see this being used effectively in appopriate situations. I could also see it being used effectively in inappropriate situations.
Also a tight-beam would only make sense of a hand held unit - like a rifle with this tech - something the size of that jeep would only be effective as a wide area effect
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If you're going with area effect then simply pulse it... assuming the start up / shut down time is near enough instant - there's no reason you'd need to have a continuous stream.
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.
No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).
In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).
As I said, no evidence. In fact, is it even visible to recordings? Why do we need this? What is it useful for, except as a dedicated torture weapon, that the likes of water hoses aren't?
http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/Factsheets/ActiveDenial.pdf
Now wheres your proof? As for what it's useful for, then you haven't bothered to read anything in the thread at all. It's a riot control device, designed to perform the same function as mace or said fire hoses, only WITHOUT actually harming the people being targeted by it.
Does it look to you like they plan to keep it as a tight-band beam? From the way I read it, the prototype does that, but I don't think they plan to keep it that way. Also, 5 seconds is the maximum, I'm sure just sweeping it along a crowd would be enough to cause intense pain, even if shortlived. Finally, they are assuming that everyone in the crowd is healthy and aged between 17 and 30, which is the average age of a soldier.
It's designed to be capable of focusing up to a kilometer away, so short answer? Yes. Sweeping across a crowd would maybe cause a little bit of pain, but relative to the 5 seconds some can endure, thats nothing.
I think jetmech is talking about the weapon itself - not possible misuses. The weapon itself is a non-lethal weapon for deterrent purposes, kinda like mace or tear gas. I could see this being used effectively in appopriate situations. I could also see it being used effectively in inappropriate situations.
Everything can be misused. Mace, Tear Gas, Sharpened pencils, BB guns, Tasers, stunners, all of it. Watching intelligent people moan like it's the end of the world because a non-harmful technology has been developed in a slightly distasteful but necessary field is infuriating.
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Which is why the weapon need heavy regulation about when it can and can not be used.
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It's designed to be capable of focusing up to a kilometer away, so short answer? Yes. Sweeping across a crowd would maybe cause a little bit of pain, but relative to the 5 seconds some can endure, thats nothing.
Well, that's something only time will answer. Since the people being hit will be a Km away and won't even know where the source of the pain is coming from, that actually increases the potential for abuse. You won't even have to be told why you're being hit with it.
And you are right that the potential for abuse is in everything, that's why we need to be so careful about it. This isn't like some kind of Nuclear reactor that is designed for benefit but can be abused, it is designed for a specific purpose, to cause pain and subdue people. Some people may be able to endure less than five seconds, but since they'd have to travel several hundred metres at least to reach the source of the beam, that really doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if there are several 'settings' the beam can go through, indeed, looking at the emitter on that jeep, there appear to be three emitter holes, small medium and large. Without details I couldn't say whether than is narrow, medium and wide focus, but as long as that potential for abuse exists, then we have to be wary.
God alone knows that Mace, Tasers and other forms of suppression have been abused in the past, this thing is, as you say, no more immune to it.
Jefferson's 'Eternal Vigilance' wasn't just a question of looking out from within...
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So we have an invisible weapon, designed simply to be capable of causing severe pain, which can be used for up to a km away and leaves no trace?
Jesus.
How can this possibly be moral? It's a pain gun! What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?
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Just a wild guess here. But electro-shock batons are more entertaining? :D
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How can this possibly be moral? It's a pain gun! What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?
Electro-shock batons can actually kill you still.
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How can this possibly be moral? It's a pain gun! What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?
Electro-shock batons can actually kill you still.
How do we know this can't? i mean, how extensively has it been tested and on who?
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It's been extensively tested on fit healthy soldiers. Why would that make you think that it might have different effects on the sick, elderly or very young?
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Or those using excessive hair spray? *imagines image of spikey-haired guy's head spontaneously erupting into flames*
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How do we know this can't? i mean, how extensively has it been tested and on who?
Okay, this is less likely to kill you. Although perhaps you'll start having funny-looking kids.
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This seems all pretty ****ed up to me... Sure it's a great technology and all, but this is bound to end up in the wrong hands. Mark my words!!! :shaking:
Its just too easy to abuse.... The not leaving a mark part just makes it easier.... As soon as any extremist african or midde eastern government gets their hands on this tech, many, MANY innocent people will suffer. Assuming anyone could steal this weapon (and it will happen), would you trust just anyone with this?
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Or how long until some kid replicates it using a few magnetrons and a metal box for directional containment? Add a car battery and instant schoolyard winner.
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If I'm extremist, why do I bother not leaving marks?
As it is, there are plenty of ways to cause pain. Another is no big deal. Wanna hurt people at a kilometer? Long range weaponry is here.
Heck, as it is, extremists have nukes. The end is nigh.
(I advocate... The Devil! :drevil:)
Interesting combination, kids, car batteries, and microwaves.... How about car battery acid? And if I can get away with bringing that, I could bring say, a knife, right? Easier to conceal...
(The opinions expressed above have nothing to do with the opinions of the writer. He's slightly odd)
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Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"
I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.
Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.
No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).
In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).
Thing is, everybody thinks it's great because 'They won't use it on me, I'm a law abiding citizen'. Then a law gets passed that forces everyone to wear location transmitters, or the like. The public get up annoyed and demonstrate and out comes the ADS together with a cry of 'Where's your right to public assembly now peasants?'.
First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.
Second: Like Tasers, Beanbags, Rubber Bullets, or good old fashioned Tear Gas can't do the EXACT SAME THING? Compared to those, ADS is a dream come true.
you have missed a lot of laws that have been passed haven't you? and things that don't even have to be laws, look up executive orders, look at how terrifying those sons of *****es can be
as to tasers being regulated
I would laugh at that statement if it weren't so tragic, tasers are misused because they are nonlethal, and there are corrupt police, and the candycane and gumdrop world where people pretend that regulations always work is a ****ing lie
there is a video floating around the internet where some lady from florida got tased two to three times for swearing at a cop and being noncompliant, not resisting arrest, just being non compliant <not getting out of her car specifically> the original sell of tasers waas hat they were to subdue violent individuals without having to kill them
so now we're shooting a woman who could easily be taken out of her car through traditional, much less painful methods, and putting electric shocks through her body, and then shocking her more when she is on the ground and not rolling onto her belly and putting her hands behind her back
now, I've seen this on google video and youtube, I figure it's public domain enough that you'd be able to find it, feel free to look, the woman is being a pain in the ass, but nothing she does earns tasing, doesn't matter what those sons of *****es regulations are, what they did was wrong
so, please, box up your naivete and send it back to candyland where they can use it
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Thank you for saying what I couldent, Quest Techie. :)
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For the love of...!
Listen, it is not that insanely easy for people to get this kind of technology! THIS THING IS JUST OUT OF THE PROTOTYPE PHASE! I can still only be mounted on VEHICLES. It won't penetrate a solid barrier, like oh, say, a goddamn wall. It WON'T kill you, it can't even penetrate your epidermis, unless the users have full intent to kill you and jack up the force as much as possibe, in which case it's no different from some pistol you pick up out of the local gunstore. Used in an Urban enviornment, it's range would be liimited to sight.
HOW ****ING OFTEN DO YOU SEE THE ELDERLY OR EXTREMELY YOUNG PARTICIPATING IN A RIOT?! This is a RIOT SUPPRESSION DEVICE. It is as unnatural and SUPREMELY UNFAIR to assume some secret shadow government or corrupt police officer is going to use this stuff to torture Joe Average as it is to naturally assume they'll lock you down in a seat and spray mace in your face all day or tickle you with a ****ing feather till you can't breathe. You'd have better odds of being mauled by a shark in Arizona.
"Or how long until some kid replicates it using a few magnetrons and a metal box for directional containment? Add a car battery and instant schoolyard winner?" Are you serious? Just...wow. I could buy something that performs much the same function. It's called a prank shock lighter :rolleyes:.
@Quest_techie: Shove your ignorance speech and Bush-esque Fear-mongering. Naivete is superbly demonstrated in your own post, assuming the few videos some idiots posted on Youtube is representative of the U.S. Police Force as a whole? Spare me the nonsense, please. It's even more ludicrous to actually believe that your average police officer is going to hijack a Jeep loaded with the most advanced Laser-based Suppression device to come out in recent years and blast various innocent people in the face.
I can barely keep the flood of incredulity I feel towards your points contained.
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Currently, it's not even available to the Average police force. It's used as a deterrent for mobs against Soldiers in Iraq, a way to protect WITHOUT firing lethal weaponry. In order to be used as a police device, it would have to be MASSIVELY MORE PORTABLE, and smaller size typically comes at the cost of power output. I doubt any public released version would be capable of much at all.
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Wow, talk about going over the edge. Think it's time to just walk away until this calms down to a less hostile level of discussion.
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Which is why the weapon need heavy regulation about when it can and can not be used.
That's not going to do any good. If the government writes the rules, then the government can interpret the rules how it wants. How about just getting rid of the weapon for good? Americans need to start exercising them First Amendment rights before it gets out of hand. Sure, people who are law-abiding citizens might not be afraid because they see the government as just and unwilling to punish the innocent, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. When governments stoop to this level to quell rioters or large-scale demonstrations, someone has to step up and say it's wrong; they can't simply wait until it comes for them. There's an old quote from government class that I think applies nicely:
First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
Cookie to whoever can guess the source without Google.
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People:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/M82rifle.jpg/300px-M82rifle.jpg)
Meet the M82A1 Barret Sniper Rifle. It has an effective range of 1.5 Kilometers, maybe 2 if you're good. It is capable of firing up to 10 Armour piercing rounds in as many seconds. Being hit by this will cost you one of 2 things: A limb, or your life. It can punch through a concrete wall. Untraceable, as you're brains will be splattered all across the room you're in before you hear the shot.
Cry about that. You'll be making a better case than you have for the ADS.
but a line has to be drawn somewhere. When governments stoop to this level to quell rioters or large-scale demonstrations, someone has to step up and say it's wrong
They already use Tazers, stun guns, mace, and rubber bullets. How is this worse?
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but a line has to be drawn somewhere. When governments stoop to this level to quell rioters or large-scale demonstrations, someone has to step up and say it's wrong
They already use Tazers, stun guns, mace, and rubber bullets. How is this worse?
I don't doubt that the police need some sort of device to quell riots when innocent lives are at stake or when the general welfare is threatened, but do we really need something that feels like you're being dipped in lava repeatedly? It just seems a little excessive, IMO. I think that's what everybody's saying here.
It just frightens me sometime how far we've come technologically. If used for the right reasons, science and new gadgets can be used for the best; say, through medical treatments, leisure, and aiding the elderly. What frightens me, however, is how governments can lower themselves to use this technology to find new and shinier ways to inflict unnecessary pain on civilians, be they in occupied territories or on their own soil. It really says something about people in power, doesn't it?
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but a line has to be drawn somewhere. When governments stoop to this level to quell rioters or large-scale demonstrations, someone has to step up and say it's wrong
They already use Tazers, stun guns, mace, and rubber bullets. How is this worse?
I don't doubt that the police need some sort of device to quell riots when innocent lives are at stake or when the general welfare is threatened, but do we really need something that feels like you're being dipped in lava repeatedly? It just seems a little excessive, IMO. I think that's what everybody's saying here.
It just frightens me sometime how far we've come technologically. If used for the right reasons, science and new gadgets can be used for the best; say, through medical treatments, leisure, and aiding the elderly. What frightens me, however, is how governments can lower themselves to use this technology to find new and shinier ways to inflict unnecessary pain on civilians, be they in occupied territories or on their own soil. It really says something about people in power, doesn't it?
I really wouldn't take that reporters words at face value, unless anyone really believes they know what being dipped in lava would feel like. A paintball to the throat could be described as feeling like someone just closelined you with a telephone wire. A beanbag to the Chest could be described as feeling like you got hit by a truck. Really all that is known about the ADS' effects that is NOT influenced by opinion and life experience is that it heats up your outer layer of skin to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, a not criminally damaging temperature, although certainly painful. It's effects don't even persist, which can't be said about virtually any other form of weapon or suppression device.
In addition, technology such as this is hardly surprising during wartime. I argue that it is still exceedingly better than the firing of actual guns or the like, which is what my above post indicated.
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People:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/M82rifle.jpg/300px-M82rifle.jpg)
Meet the M82A1 Barret Sniper Rifle. It has an effective range of 1.5 Kilometers, maybe 2 if you're good. It is capable of firing up to 10 Armour piercing rounds in as many seconds. Being hit by this will cost you one of 2 things: A limb, or your life. It can punch through a concrete wall. Untraceable, as you're brains will be splattered all across the room you're in before you hear the shot.
Cry about that. You'll be making a better case than you have for the ADS.
but a line has to be drawn somewhere. When governments stoop to this level to quell rioters or large-scale demonstrations, someone has to step up and say it's wrong
They already use Tazers, stun guns, mace, and rubber bullets. How is this worse?
Barrett kills people.
Non-lethal weapons do not.
The step to use non-lethal weapons is lower than the step to use lethal weapons.
Government has monopoly on both.
Both are effective at crowd dispersal, riot control and minor civil offences.
Calculate.
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I really wouldn't take that reporters words at face value, unless anyone really believes they know what being dipped in lava would feel like. A paintball to the throat could be described as feeling like someone just closelined you with a telephone wire. A beanbag to the Chest could be described as feeling like you got hit by a truck. Really all that is known about the ADS' effects that is NOT influenced by opinion and life experience is that it heats up your outer layer of skin to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, a not criminally damaging temperature, although certainly painful. It's effects don't even persist, which can't be said about virtually any other form of weapon or suppression device.
In addition, technology such as this is hardly surprising during wartime. I argue that it is still exceedingly better than the firing of actual guns or the like, which is what my above post indicated.
I'm not saying that the reporter's words are to be taken literally. All I'm saying is that the government shouldn't need weapons like this to use against civilians, domestic or foreign, wartime or peacetime. I don't disagree with funding military research to keep the US military on the cutting edge, but I don't believe in developing weapons which have the sole duty to exact terrible pain on an individual or a crowd. Lethal, conventional weapons I don't disagree with; it's stuff like chemical weapons and ADS that I find to be pushing the limit.
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For the love of...!
Listen, it is not that insanely easy for people to get this kind of technology! THIS THING IS JUST OUT OF THE PROTOTYPE PHASE! I can still only be mounted on VEHICLES. It won't penetrate a solid barrier, like oh, say, a goddamn wall. It WON'T kill you, it can't even penetrate your epidermis, unless the users have full intent to kill you and jack up the force as much as possibe, in which case it's no different from some pistol you pick up out of the local gunstore. Used in an Urban enviornment, it's range would be liimited to sight.
HOW ****ING OFTEN DO YOU SEE THE ELDERLY OR EXTREMELY YOUNG PARTICIPATING IN A RIOT?! This is a RIOT SUPPRESSION DEVICE. It is as unnatural and SUPREMELY UNFAIR to assume some secret shadow government or corrupt police officer is going to use this stuff to torture Joe Average as it is to naturally assume they'll lock you down in a seat and spray mace in your face all day or tickle you with a ****ing feather till you can't breathe. You'd have better odds of being mauled by a shark in Arizona.
"Or how long until some kid replicates it using a few magnetrons and a metal box for directional containment? Add a car battery and instant schoolyard winner?" Are you serious? Just...wow. I could buy something that performs much the same function. It's called a prank shock lighter :rolleyes:.
@Quest_techie: Shove your ignorance speech and Bush-esque Fear-mongering. Naivete is superbly demonstrated in your own post, assuming the few videos some idiots posted on Youtube is representative of the U.S. Police Force as a whole? Spare me the nonsense, please. It's even more ludicrous to actually believe that your average police officer is going to hijack a Jeep loaded with the most advanced Laser-based Suppression device to come out in recent years and blast various innocent people in the face.
I can barely keep the flood of incredulity I feel towards your points contained.
wow, so you ARE a moron
police regularly swab protesters in lines and other non mobile situations <folk who chain themselves to trees> with pepper spray that is FAR from mace, again, candycanes and gumdrops, elderly protesters, what about all those aging hippies? I see a fair number of quite old protesters, also, paents of people in iraq, a lot of them are quite old, spouses of reactivated soldiers, since they upped the age for reactivation, dang, they've gotten into a pretty old age bracket too
and did you ever consider that heart disease, epilepsy and many other disorders that electroshock can set off, though often age linked <though epilepsy kicking in at puberty, hardly the age I suspect you were thinking> rarely show outward signs, and I wonder what the statistics are for people who are not elderly, but have electro magnetic devices that assist with the regulation of body function, I do not simplify to pace makers because in DBS a similar device is used to treat schizophrenia, depression, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, and a range of other diseases
gee, seems you are just spewing your ignorance as hard as you can eh?
this has nothing to do with "shadow governments" wow, paranoid aren't we? it has to do with the fact that often, when kit gets small and economical it gets down to street level, and if you didn't have your head where the sun doesn't shine you would see that miniturization is clearly a goal, it is a goal with any weapon system, lethal or non, as is making it more economical, the fact that this decive leaves no mark makes it extremly attractive to someone who wants to abuse their power in a position of authority, many police officers are police officers because they want that authority to be able to use it on other people, I am not saying most, I am not saying all, I am saying many, I am saying enough to make this a problem, I am saying that when I watch the interviews with police officers after the chicago dnc in the 60's whenever someone mentions hitting a kneecap or something and doing severe damage, which the messed up folk do there is a very disturbing manner about the way in which they do it
some learned cynicism and wisdom added to your bag of tricks would do you well, I disagree with you because I have seen what happens when people with lesser capabilities are given a better way to do their evil, as it is only a corrupt officer with some of his wits about him can get away with something, those who aren't smart enough to cover up the marks from the taser or the club don't get to think about abusing their power, with this mechanism, which will eventually get into more hands, more people will be able to abuse it, and sans the forensic trail to shut down those who would abuse this power this is indeed a dangerous path
I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more
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there is a video floating around the internet where some lady from florida got tased two to three times for swearing at a cop and being noncompliant, not resisting arrest, just being non compliant <not getting out of her car specifically> the original sell of tasers waas hat they were to subdue violent individuals without having to kill them
Shes lucky she wasnt shot dead, US police are quite notorious for that. As for this yoke, if my government was developing this sort of thing, I'd be pissed off, because you'd only spend this sort of time and money if you were expecting riots for some reason. Then again our governments there to protect the people, not control them.
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wow, so you ARE a moron
police regularly swab protesters in lines and other non mobile situations <folk who chain themselves to trees> with pepper spray that is FAR from mace, again, candycanes and gumdrops, elderly protesters, what about all those aging hippies? I see a fair number of quite old protesters, also, paents of people in iraq, a lot of them are quite old, spouses of reactivated soldiers, since they upped the age for reactivation, dang, they've gotten into a pretty old age bracket too
and did you ever consider that heart disease, epilepsy and many other disorders that electroshock can set off, though often age linked <though epilepsy kicking in at puberty, hardly the age I suspect you were thinking> rarely show outward signs, and I wonder what the statistics are for people who are not elderly, but have electro magnetic devices that assist with the regulation of body function, I do not simplify to pace makers because in DBS a similar device is used to treat schizophrenia, depression, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, and a range of other diseases
gee, seems you are just spewing your ignorance as hard as you can eh?
this has nothing to do with "shadow governments" wow, paranoid aren't we? it has to do with the fact that often, when kit gets small and economical it gets down to street level, and if you didn't have your head where the sun doesn't shine you would see that miniturization is clearly a goal, it is a goal with any weapon system, lethal or non, as is making it more economical, the fact that this decive leaves no mark makes it extremly attractive to someone who wants to abuse their power in a position of authority, many police officers are police officers because they want that authority to be able to use it on other people, I am not saying most, I am not saying all, I am saying many, I am saying enough to make this a problem, I am saying that when I watch the interviews with police officers after the chicago dnc in the 60's whenever someone mentions hitting a kneecap or something and doing severe damage, which the messed up folk do there is a very disturbing manner about the way in which they do it
some learned cynicism and wisdom added to your bag of tricks would do you well, I disagree with you because I have seen what happens when people with lesser capabilities are given a better way to do their evil, as it is only a corrupt officer with some of his wits about him can get away with something, those who aren't smart enough to cover up the marks from the taser or the club don't get to think about abusing their power, with this mechanism, which will eventually get into more hands, more people will be able to abuse it, and sans the forensic trail to shut down those who would abuse this power this is indeed a dangerous path
I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more
Enough, both of you. Stop flaming each other and just present your opinion OF THE STORY!
This project hasn't come very far. We've developed it, but they're pretty expensive to make. The police don't need it, and they probably won't use it for some time. I do not condone the creation of this device, but nevertheless, we have it. We should NEVER use it, but then again, there are some out there who say we shouldn't use guns. Perhaps this is just another tool that we can use if things go terribly wrong. And finally, there are marks left on the person if they are exposed too long.
and a very small number of them walked away with redness and blisters from the beam's intense heat.
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Thank you Spartan. I'm disinclined to moderate this discussion because I'm involved in it, but if this turns into a name-calling session it will end up locked, if not by me then by someone else.
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Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?
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Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?
Ethical reasons I'm guessing, though if the deceased and his/her family gives permission, I don't see anything wrong with it, though religious zealots will strongly object and probably succeed in stopping this whole project.
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Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?
Ummm, we respect our dead. We'd have to have the family sign some sort of waver allowing testing on their loved one. Not many families nowadays would condone what the Chair Force Air Force is doing. Let alone use their loved one's body be used for an experiment that could destroy the body.
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So destroying the body of someone who isnt using theirs anymore is immoral, and making a living, breathing human being feel like their skin is melting off is moral? How does that make any sense? :eek2:
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What really gets me here is the fact that some people here are perfectly willing to have people shot, potentially lethally, which may I remind you is a condition that cannot be removed with the flick of a switch, but unwilling to have a small spot on your skin heated so that pain is unbearable, after which the beam may be switched off and the person will be completely unwilling to have it turned on again. If people want to abuse this, trust me, they can hurt people much easier without having to use an expensive piece of equipment such as this.
Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC, a sonic weapon.
And I don't see why you all advocate the use of large beam weapons on unshielded noobs like me. *dives for cover*
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TOO LATE!!!!
:welcome:
:p
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Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC, a sonic weapon.
The photo of the jeep is taken from the article and says quite clearly that its the ADS, if you look theres pictures of the other models, none of which are going to fit in anyones briefcase. And I dont see anybody here advocating shooting rioters.
More on the testing:
The experiments took several precautions for the safety of the volunteers. In all experiments, the volunteers were not allowed to wear glasses or contact lenses, due to concerns about possible eye damage. Additionally, after the first experiment, volunteers were checked for metal objects, such as keys and coins, as well as certain zippers, buttons, and seams, in order to avoid "hot spots" that could be created by these objects on the skin of the participants.
In a test conducted before the three experiments described, one of the participants suffered a burn due to the weapon being set to the wrong power level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
Countermeasures against the weapon could be quite straightforward — for example covering up the body with thick clothes or carrying a metallic sheet — or even a trash can lid — as a shield or reflector. Also unclear is how the active-denial technology would work in rainy, foggy or sea-spray conditions where the beam's energy could be absorbed by water in the atmosphere.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/v-mads.htm
Anyone see that film about the bradley "Pentagon wars"? Fraiser was in it, hilarious. They dont seem to have learned anything from it though.
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It's like a weapon of terror. Guns are a weapon of WAR, the ADS will be a weapon of TERROR. I do not condone the use of it, but if pointed slightly away from a crowd would convince them to disperse.
If I may quote Colonel O'Neill:
"This is a weapon of TERROR. It is made to INTIMIDATE your enemy. (dropping the staff weapon, picking up his P90) This is a weapon of WAR. It is made to KILL your enemy." (Season 5, Episode"The Warrior").
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the Chair Force Air Force
/me proceeds to kick spartan's ass.
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wow, so you ARE a moron
Cute. This, from the person who has provided no support at all other than a few offhand remarks little different from "I saw the hippies get maced. I SAW IT (on youtube!)!"
police regularly swab protesters in lines and other non mobile situations <folk who chain themselves to trees> with pepper spray that is FAR from mace, again, candycanes and gumdrops, elderly protesters, what about all those aging hippies? I see a fair number of quite old protesters, also, paents of people in iraq, a lot of them are quite old, spouses of reactivated soldiers, since they upped the age for reactivation, dang, they've gotten into a pretty old age bracket too
I didn't say protesters, you incompetent, I said rioters. Riot=More Violent than peaceful protest (the only LAWFUL kind there is). Learn the difference. Most police forces are fully authorized to use direct action to disperse a riot, including Mace/Pepper Spray, Tasers, whatever.
and did you ever consider that heart disease, epilepsy and many other disorders that electroshock can set off, though often age linked <though epilepsy kicking in at puberty, hardly the age I suspect you were thinking> rarely show outward signs, and I wonder what the statistics are for people who are not elderly, but have electro magnetic devices that assist with the regulation of body function, I do not simplify to pace makers because in DBS a similar device is used to treat schizophrenia, depression, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, and a range of other diseases
And what does this have to do with a focused heat-based device that doesn't involve passing massive amounts of electricity through your brain? Oh, thats right, nothing.
gee, seems you are just spewing your ignorance as hard as you can eh?
"Kettle, this is Pot. You're black."
this has nothing to do with "shadow governments" wow, paranoid aren't we? it has to do with the fact that often, when kit gets small and economical it gets down to street level, and if you didn't have your head where the sun doesn't shine you would see that miniturization is clearly a goal, it is a goal with any weapon system, lethal or non, as is making it more economical, the fact that this decive leaves no mark makes it extremly attractive to someone who wants to abuse their power in a position of authority, many police officers are police officers because they want that authority to be able to use it on other people, I am not saying most, I am not saying all, I am saying many, I am saying enough to make this a problem, I am saying that when I watch the interviews with police officers after the chicago dnc in the 60's whenever someone mentions hitting a kneecap or something and doing severe damage, which the messed up folk do there is a very disturbing manner about the way in which they do it
Bullcrap. There were numerous remarks to the effect that the "Evil Government will torture you mercilessly with this!"
As for the rest: And you call me paranoid? El. Oh. El.
some learned cynicism and wisdom added to your bag of tricks would do you well, I disagree with you because I have seen what happens when people with lesser capabilities are given a better way to do their evil, as it is only a corrupt officer with some of his wits about him can get away with something, those who aren't smart enough to cover up the marks from the taser or the club don't get to think about abusing their power, with this mechanism, which will eventually get into more hands, more people will be able to abuse it, and sans the forensic trail to shut down those who would abuse this power this is indeed a dangerous path
...Of course. How could I be so blind? Obviously this is a foolproof device, highly advanced, capable of penetrating any form of defense or surface, autotracking, unimaginably cruel, easy to obtain, far along in development and miniaturization. How could I not see that within a few years every sick bastard that makes up U.S. security and Law enforcement will have their own shiny paingun that they will be able to abuse against anybody and everybody. I mean, it's not like such a device will be regulated, or expensive, or (LOL at the thought) worse at inspiring fear and obediance than the GUNS POLICE OFFICERS ALREADY CARRY!
Wow, thank you for educating me with your oh-so-infallible view on this subject. Screw the pain lasers, lets just skip right to the killing ones, eh? Then they'll be indistinguishable from other weapons, and you can stop the whining.
There, does that cynicism make you feel better?
I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more
Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.
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People:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/M82rifle.jpg/300px-M82rifle.jpg)
Meet the M82A1 Barret Sniper Rifle. It has an effective range of 1.5 Kilometers, maybe 2 if you're good. It is capable of firing up to 10 Armour piercing rounds in as many seconds. Being hit by this will cost you one of 2 things: A limb, or your life. It can punch through a concrete wall. Untraceable, as you're brains will be splattered all across the room you're in before you hear the shot.
Cry about that. You'll be making a better case than you have for the ADS.
What are you on about? Seriously?
Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon. It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example. Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics. Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.
I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.
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What are you on about? Seriously?
Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon. It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example. Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics. Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.
I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.
YOU were complaining about the fact that ADS is "Immoral" because of what it could do and how it couldn't be traced.
I was pointing out that there are far worse things out there that have the same traits and potential.
Lets make a checklist:
ADS causes pain. (Bad)
ADS is designed to be a non-lethal deterrant. (Good)
ADS is currently in use by the military only, as a way to disperse mobs/attackers without fatally wounding them (Good)
ADS doesn't leave a mark on the target unless said target purposefully stands in the path of the beam for an exhorbitant amount of time. (Good or bad, depending upon your point of view)
Lets compare to the standard issue sidearm (or beanbag launchers commonly used to disperse riots):
They cause pain.
They are very much capable of killing/maiming you.
They are in use by current police forces.
They leave many lasting marks, including broken bones, extensive bruising, bleeding, and potentially internal damage and/or death.
I'll ask again, because you repeatedly fail to address this point: How is ADS any worse than what is already out there? It's not the only damn thing in the universe capable of causing PAIN, people.
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Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC, a sonic weapon.
The photo of the jeep is taken from the article and says quite clearly that its the ADS, if you look theres pictures of the other models, none of which are going to fit in anyones briefcase. And I dont see anybody here advocating shooting rioters.
You are certainly right, I confused this weapon with a briefcase-sized lightning emitter that could potentially be used to block a doorway. Terribly sorry.
But my point still stands. Police can still beat people up and cause pain without going to the trouble and expense of buying an ADS system and chaining someone to a chair in front of it.
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I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more
Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.
'Cept the military has training for those weapons. And those weapons consume ammo. And I think the point that Techie was trying to make was that ADS won't leave marks (on most people) so there's no evidece left if a soldier used it on the enemy.
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I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more
Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.
skipping to that part because the rest was dreg
funny how you don't mention cluster bombs
and funny how you don't realize that all but I believe two battleship class vessels have been mothballed and replaced with carriers, and the two remaining are in the reserve fleet, i.e. they are waiting to die
the military is significantly more trained than law enforcement, and the military has proven itself to have a greater culture of self accountability eventually
I do put that eventually in there because stuff has to be brought up, but police do get off with crap
now, this argument serves absolutly no purpose, I am going to, for the moment discontinue my side of it because I know I am not going to shift you, never see anyone shift in internet arguments, they really serve no purpose, I could provide statistics from peer reviewed journals till the sun came up and it would have no effect, I've done it in the past, never worth my time, so, screw you :D
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Seriously. Flipside has already warned the pair of you to stop with the name calling and flaming.
If you want to discuss the matter go ahead but if you can't do it without childish name calling you'll both be getting a holiday from the Hard Light forum soon.
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What are you on about? Seriously?
Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon. It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example. Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics. Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.
I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.
YOU were complaining about the fact that ADS is "Immoral" because of what it could do and how it couldn't be traced.
I was pointing out that there are far worse things out there that have the same traits and potential.
Lets make a checklist:
ADS causes pain. (Bad)
ADS is designed to be a non-lethal deterrant. (Good)
ADS is currently in use by the military only, as a way to disperse mobs/attackers without fatally wounding them (Good)
ADS doesn't leave a mark on the target unless said target purposefully stands in the path of the beam for an exhorbitant amount of time. (Good or bad, depending upon your point of view)
Lets compare to the standard issue sidearm (or beanbag launchers commonly used to disperse riots):
They cause pain.
They are very much capable of killing/maiming you.
They are in use by current police forces.
They leave many lasting marks, including broken bones, extensive bruising, bleeding, and potentially internal damage and/or death.
I'll ask again, because you repeatedly fail to address this point: How is ADS any worse than what is already out there? It's not the only damn thing in the universe capable of causing PAIN, people.
Because ADS is designed for the express purpose of causing pain, invisibly and undetectably. It offers the capacity for literal torture without evidence. Without evidence, there is no form of accountability; it can be used without fear of repercussion, and with increasing frequency because it 'only' causes intense pain. A gun - something we don't actually seem to need much in my country - may be more lethal and physically damaging, but it is traceable and has very clear consequences of use; every shot leaves a casing, every person hurt a wound. IT's extremely tracable.
Moreso, it's a - frankly - idiotic strawman to suggest the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control (actually, I can't help but wonder how useful ADS would be in spreading panic and thus chaos in a crowd rather than controlling it), something which never has nor ever will. Nor could a sniper rifle be used for torture - something ADS is perfect for - because of evidence. Even looking at the military applications, all a pain weapon offers is the ability to be indiscriminate when using; and how many soldiers would use it when they felt genuinely threatened, rather than a bit of the old reliably indiscriminate firing?
So let's make up a nice list explaining my argument
ADS;
- designed to cause pain - bad
- may cause death ala tasers due to poor testing or misuse - bad
- non-lethality means less hesitation to use in unsuitable circumstances - bad
- invisible, which removes any accountability and leaves massively open to abuse such as at Gitmo - bad
It's a device designed to cause intense pain; how is the creation of any device to cause pain moral?
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Police are using high power water cannons to disperse rioters following Pinochet's death. These seem to be effective in dispersing crowds. They are low cost, low tech, and work fine. Why dont we use these water cannons instead of something that could double as an ultimate torture device?
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Yeah, why don't they? Say, for instance, to quell race riots. Wait, why is that ringing a bell?
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Surely, a police officer will find it difficult to torture someone with an ADS system. You can hardly drive around town gunning people down with one of these mounted on the back. Misuse of the ADS system by the police requires three things: the (expensive and therefore difficult to authorise use of) ADS system, the cooperation of your colleagues (good luck firing a vehicle-mounted pain beam without alerting your friends) and the intent to cause pain to innocent people. As I have said, it is much easier to simply beat someone up than to get hold of the department pain gun and aim it at someone.
Now, in any case, the non-lethal settling of conflict is always preferable to causing death. That's why jails were invented. If a riot breaks out, set this to a high level and sweep across crowd. If you can pull it off fast enough, that's an entire crowd on its knees. If the riot is armed, say a couple of them have AK-47s, and a couple more have grenades, of course they are a threat. Shooting them would work, sure, but you'd have dead people everywhere, because panic would break out and you would be hard-pressed not to hit an innocent person. Beam them instead. They'll be on the ground in a second, and at least in the case of the AK-47, threat neutralized. Without taking a life.
And if you're thinking soldiers or police will be indiscriminate with this thing, remember that all police officers have to be tasered several times before they can have one.
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HOW ****ING OFTEN DO YOU SEE THE ELDERLY OR EXTREMELY YOUNG PARTICIPATING IN A RIOT?!
'Round here? Lots, actually. Not that I disagree with you.
Police are using high power water cannons to disperse rioters following Pinochet's death. These seem to be effective in dispersing crowds. They are low cost, low tech, and work fine. Why dont we use these water cannons instead of something that could double as an ultimate torture device?
Because water cannons can physically kill or (more likely) injure someone?
And guys - listen to your moderators. They're good guys. They should be taken seriously. :)
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And guys - listen to your moderators. They're good guys. They should be taken seriously. :)
And here I thought they were just here to entertain us. Silly me.
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Surely, a police officer will find it difficult to torture someone with an ADS system. You can hardly drive around town gunning people down with one of these mounted on the back. Misuse of the ADS system by the police requires three things: the (expensive and therefore difficult to authorise use of) ADS system, the cooperation of your colleagues (good luck firing a vehicle-mounted pain beam without alerting your friends) and the intent to cause pain to innocent people. As I have said, it is much easier to simply beat someone up than to get hold of the department pain gun and aim it at someone.
Now, in any case, the non-lethal settling of conflict is always preferable to causing death. That's why jails were invented. If a riot breaks out, set this to a high level and sweep across crowd. If you can pull it off fast enough, that's an entire crowd on its knees. If the riot is armed, say a couple of them have AK-47s, and a couple more have grenades, of course they are a threat. Shooting them would work, sure, but you'd have dead people everywhere, because panic would break out and you would be hard-pressed not to hit an innocent person. Beam them instead. They'll be on the ground in a second, and at least in the case of the AK-47, threat neutralized. Without taking a life.
And if you're thinking soldiers or police will be indiscriminate with this thing, remember that all police officers have to be tasered several times before they can have one.
And yet.... (http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/usa-summary-eng)
Ill-treatment and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials
There were reports of ill-treatment, deaths in custody and excessive use of force by police and prison officers. At least three people died after being struck by M26 Tasers: dart-firing, high-voltage stun guns deployed by a growing number of US police agencies. Although most such deaths have been attributed to other factors, there were concerns about the health risks associated with electro-shock weapons as well as their potential for abuse.
* Gordon Randall Jones, an unarmed man, died in July after he was struck 12 times with an M26 Taser by police in Orange County, Florida. The autopsy report listed the cause of death as “positional asphyxia, secondary to the application of restraints in the setting of acute cocaine intoxication”.
* Chiquita Hammonds, a 15-year-old schoolgirl, was pepper-sprayed and struck with a Taser by police in Miramar, Florida, following a minor disturbance on a school bus. AI believes the use of chemical and electro-shock devices in this case constituted cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
Also, this time from Canada (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4125030.stm)