[Jetmech Jr.]

Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"

I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.

[aldo_14]

Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"

I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.

Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.

[Flipside]

Thing is, everybody thinks it's great because 'They won't use it on me, I'm a law abiding citizen'. Then a law gets passed that forces everyone to wear location transmitters, or the like. The public get up annoyed and demonstrate and out comes the ADS together with a cry of 'Where's your right to public assembly now peasants?'.

[Janos]

Ahh I see.

And there I was thinking I had cleverly invented a way to wipe whole populations off the map whilst leaving their homes, factories and so on intact.

I suppose I'm glad it doesn't work that way!

Neutron Bomb ftw.

On a side note, i'd be interested in seeing if this weapon would still be effective from orbit. Would be one hell of an effective area-denial weapon.

Neutron bombs don't work that way. They're just low-yield tactical nukes with enhanced radiation, they still blow up nicely and cause destruction. They are essentially super-expensive antitank weapons.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"

I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.

Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.

No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).

In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't  expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).

Thing is, everybody thinks it's great because 'They won't use it on me, I'm a law abiding citizen'. Then a law gets passed that forces everyone to wear location transmitters, or the like. The public get up annoyed and demonstrate and out comes the ADS together with a cry of 'Where's your right to public assembly now peasants?'.

First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.

Second: Like Tasers, Beanbags, Rubber Bullets, or good old fashioned Tear Gas can't do the EXACT SAME THING? Compared to those, ADS is a dream come true.

[Deniidil]

you don't think something like that would get passed?  The other day there was an article about a radio guy who went on a rant about how muslims should have to get tattoes, and wear a cresent on their clothes, and have special IDs, etc.  He got a bunch of callers saying how awesome an idea of that was.   At the end of his show he denounced every single person who had agreed with him and said something about that is exactly how the nazis could do what they did.

You can get anything passed in a State of Fear (oh.. double entendre )

[Flipside]

First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.

Not gonna happen because people have the right to public assembly. That was the whole point of the post.

The 'A' in ADS stands for 'Area', that is the difference. With those other weapons you could subdue an individual, but not a crowd. Once you have the ability to cause pain to large numbers of people without leaving any kind of mark, you have the power to control those people. Once you have the power to control those people, what exactly are they going to do to stop that law getting passed?

There have even been films that use that very technique, of long-distance pain-induction, as a means of control.

Even tear gas cannot have the same impact as this thing because there are marks left on the individual and longer term effects, that, in itself breeds sympathy. Also Tear Gas relies on wind speed/direction etc, it's not nearly as effective at controlling the masses as this would be.

[IPAndrews]

Smart radio guy. As for this latest new technological development. In many ways it worries me that these things don't do any permenant damage. It makes them just more likely to use them without justification.

[Jetmech Jr.]

First: I'd love to see that law even TRY to get passed. Not gonna happen.

Not gonna happen because people have the right to public assembly. That was the whole point of the post.

The 'A' in ADS stands for 'Area', that is the difference. With those other weapons you could subdue an individual, but not a crowd. Once you have the ability to cause pain to large numbers of people without leaving any kind of mark, you have the power to control those people. Once you have the power to control those people, what exactly are they going to do to stop that law getting passed?

There have even been films that use that very technique, of long-distance pain-induction, as a means of control.

No it doesn't. ADS means Active Denial System. It's not some sort of "Area Weapon," it utilizes a beam less than a few inches wide, for christs sake. A person can withstand up to 5 seconds of exposure to it, and the instant their out of the beam, the effects disappear

[aldo_14]

Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"

I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.

Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.

No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).

In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't  expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).

As I said, no evidence.  In fact, is it even visible to recordings?  Why do we need this?  What is it useful for, except as a dedicated torture weapon, that the likes of water hoses aren't?

[Flipside]

My mistake on the name, however, take a look at the picture of what I am assuming is a mock up of an active system...



(Hopefully I won't get deckered)

Does it look to you like they plan to keep it as a tight-band beam? From the way I read it, the prototype does that, but I don't think they plan to keep it that way. Also, 5 seconds is the maximum, I'm sure just sweeping it along a crowd would be enough to cause intense pain, even if shortlived. Finally, they are assuming that everyone in the crowd is healthy and aged between 17 and 30, which is the average age of a soldier.

[Deniidil]

I think jetmech is talking about the weapon itself - not possible misuses.  The weapon itself is a non-lethal weapon for deterrent purposes, kinda like mace or tear gas.  I could see this being used effectively in appopriate situations.  I could also see it being used effectively in inappropriate situations.

Also a tight-beam would only make sense of a hand held unit - like a rifle with this tech - something the size of that jeep would only be effective as a wide area effect

[Fineus]

If you're going with area effect then simply pulse it... assuming the start up / shut down time is near enough instant - there's no reason you'd need to have a continuous stream.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Wow. Some of you are quite clearly psychotic. "Oh, it hurts people without physically damaging them...HOW IMMORAL. BAD BAD! Stick with guns!"

I think the ADS is a great development. Better than getting shot with a taser or, god forbid, a BULLET, which actually CAN kill you.

Actually, it hurts people without leaving physical evidence.......we've seen with tasers that the supposed non-lethalaity of a weapon often makes people more inclined to use it.

No, it hurts you without leaving anything. At the absolute best, the ADS effect is capable of penetrating 1/64th of an inch into human skin. All it does is excite water molecules in your skin. (however, it can cause small burns if set to a very high powerlevel).

In addition, the thing is, currently, vehicle mounted only. You need a jeep to mount the transmitter. In regards to tasers, Police Officers are typically very restricted in how they can use it, and I don't  expect restrictions on the ADS to be any lighter (In fact, it'll probably be even moreso).

As I said, no evidence.  In fact, is it even visible to recordings?  Why do we need this?  What is it useful for, except as a dedicated torture weapon, that the likes of water hoses aren't?

http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/Factsheets/ActiveDenial.pdf

Now wheres your proof? As for what it's useful for, then you haven't bothered to read anything in the thread at all. It's a riot control device, designed to perform the same function as mace or said fire hoses, only WITHOUT actually harming the people being targeted by it.

Does it look to you like they plan to keep it as a tight-band beam? From the way I read it, the prototype does that, but I don't think they plan to keep it that way. Also, 5 seconds is the maximum, I'm sure just sweeping it along a crowd would be enough to cause intense pain, even if shortlived. Finally, they are assuming that everyone in the crowd is healthy and aged between 17 and 30, which is the average age of a soldier.

It's designed to be capable of focusing up to a kilometer away, so short answer? Yes. Sweeping across a crowd would maybe cause a little bit of pain, but relative to the 5 seconds some can endure, thats nothing.

I think jetmech is talking about the weapon itself - not possible misuses.  The weapon itself is a non-lethal weapon for deterrent purposes, kinda like mace or tear gas.  I could see this being used effectively in appopriate situations.  I could also see it being used effectively in inappropriate situations.

Everything can be misused. Mace, Tear Gas, Sharpened pencils, BB guns, Tasers, stunners, all of it. Watching intelligent people moan like it's the end of the world because a non-harmful technology has been developed in a slightly distasteful but necessary field is infuriating.

[karajorma]

Which is why the weapon need heavy regulation about when it can and can not be used.

[Flipside]

It's designed to be capable of focusing up to a kilometer away, so short answer? Yes. Sweeping across a crowd would maybe cause a little bit of pain, but relative to the 5 seconds some can endure, thats nothing.

Well, that's something only time will answer. Since the people being hit will be a Km away and won't even know where the source of the pain is coming from, that actually increases the potential for abuse. You won't even have to be told why you're being hit with it.

And you are right that the potential for abuse is in everything, that's why we need to be so careful about it. This isn't like some kind of Nuclear reactor that is designed for benefit but can be abused, it is designed for a specific purpose, to cause pain and subdue people. Some people may be able to endure less than five seconds, but since they'd have to travel several hundred metres at least to reach the source of the beam, that really doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if there are several 'settings' the beam can go through, indeed, looking at the emitter on that jeep, there appear to be three emitter holes, small medium and large. Without details I couldn't say whether than is narrow, medium and wide focus, but as long as that potential for abuse exists, then we have to be wary.

God alone knows that Mace, Tasers and other forms of suppression have been abused in the past, this thing is, as you say, no more immune to it.

Jefferson's 'Eternal Vigilance' wasn't just a question of looking out from within...

[aldo_14]

So we have an invisible weapon, designed simply to be capable of causing severe pain, which can be used for up to a km away and leaves no trace?

Jesus.

How can this possibly be moral?  It's a pain gun!  What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?

[Deniidil]

Just a wild guess here.  But electro-shock batons are more entertaining?

[NGTM-1R]

How can this possibly be moral?  It's a pain gun!  What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?

Electro-shock batons can actually kill you still.

[aldo_14]

How can this possibly be moral?  It's a pain gun!  What, because it doesn't do the nasty business of killing or leaving a mark it becomes ok? What's the difference between this and equipping police with electro-shock batons?

Electro-shock batons can actually kill you still.

How do we know this can't?  i mean, how extensively has it been tested and on who?