Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on November 29, 2007, 10:45:34 pm
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I'm contemplating moving to Europe (somewhere) during the next few years. Just thinking about it right now, but it's looking real good.
What i'm wondering from you, is this:
We have a very large community here, and very spread out. I'd like to get an idea of what I'd be able to make living in *wherever you live in Europe*, what the cost of living is like, standard of living, average home cost, etc...
just help me out here. My job position would be somewhere between Network Administrator, and Information Technology Manager. For a small to medium sized company (from 25-500 employees)
Thanks in advance :)
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Where do you live now? Why do you want to move?
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Maybe the place he lives in has a 'Home Owners Association'.
That would be enough of a reason to kill yourself, actually.
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Europe is a very varied place. Just where are you headed for?
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not sure where i'm headed. probably either england or norway, but i'm open... kind of depends where good jobs are :)
and i'm considering moving because i want a change. i can't get tied down in one place for too long :)
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Might I suggest Poland? I know nothing about it, but they send me a bucket of krill whenever I recommend someone. :)
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If you come to the UK beware that you will have to have serious I.T experience under your belt to get anything serious.
Home ownership is likely to be easier within the next few years as prices are slowly but surely starting to slow down, and even drop (albeit in small percentages). Depending on the area you can go from £125,000 for a semi-detached 3 bed up to 250,000.
Living costs are reasonable so long as you don't live in London. Bread costs anywhere from 40p up to £2 depending on the store and whether it's Organic or not. M&S are expensive but offer higher quality, Asda is literally Wal*Mart and offers cheap prices but questionable quality.
There is a very "rights and responsibilities" culture in the UK that makes smoking about as bad as spreading AIDS, and makes owners of large cars look like child murderers. Thanks Tony. That being said it's very possible that by the time you move a new government will be in and the pendulum will have swung the other way.
Also note that because of increasing hysteria and opportunism by the authorities, it is likely we will have a half-arsed I.D card system in place by 2010.
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Might I suggest Poland? I know nothing about it, but they send me a bucket of krill whenever I recommend someone. :)
+1
Warsaw is a pretty nice place (and WAY different than the US, so if you want change, you'll get tons of it).
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Might I suggest Poland? I know nothing about it, but they send me a bucket of krill whenever I recommend someone.
The mob?
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Uhm...Italy? :P
Weather, people and average home cost are all various...can you be more specific? What do you want, exactly? Good weather, acceptable level of criminality, monuments to visit...?
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Northern part of the Netherlands (Vriesland) if you can stand the cold - is a beautiful place with awesome awesome awesome people.
Rotterdam is a nice upbeat city. Lots happening there. Might get shot wandering into the Moslem community if you're an American though. o.O
Eastern Belgium - amazingly beautiful terrain, and really 'backwoodsy' cities. I'd stay away from central and western Belgium for the most part though.... .... ..
Germany is... well, its Germany. Austria is cool too.
But if I had to move anywhere in europe (at least the places I've been) it would be Deventer, Netherlands.
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I'm not sure if it counts, but you should move to Rapture. ;7
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Go to the Netherlands. :drevil:
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Here's my pitch for Serbia:
The women are hot, beer costs about $0.7/liter and you'll be looked upon as a handsome, worldly billionare because you happen to come from outside of the country. And, to top it all off, they've recently made great advanced toward wiping out cholera and dysentry.
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I'll agree with Rictor that most of the women I've met that come from Serbia seem to be pretty stunning in looks.
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Interesting move there Stealth. Sounds like quite an adventure.
If its IT that you're interested in maybe Ireland is a good option as well as I've read a few articles about Ireland's up and coming IT hotspot. I forget where the development is taking place but might be worth a look too.
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Monaco.
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yeah IceFire, i just want a change; once i get my bachelors, i'll have 7 years experience as an IT manager, i'll have numerous certications under my belt (right now already have MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNP, etc.), and i want to move somewhere to start a new life. whether i permanently settle there or not, i haven't decided yet.
shoot, who knows... 2 or 3 years from now i may settle down and get married... i don't plan to though ;0
i've already made a large move like this once. at 13 years old, from South Africa to America.
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Spain? :pimp: we need your money... :lol: :p . He he.
Now, seriously, here in Canary Islands we've a good weather. Low crime. I think :nervous:
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hehe..Eaurpe is a big place. you got quite a pick.
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Spain? :pimp: we need your money... :lol: :p . He he.
Now, seriously, here in Canary Islands we've a good weather. Low crime. I think :nervous:
Tell me you live in Tenerife :nervous:
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I spent the summer living in Rome. Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system. Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
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There's really only one choice.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all.
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how about moldova
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Black Wolf:
Buahahaha! That was a good call!
Actually, there are two reasons why I would advise against coming here. First one is that Stealth could meet me in person. The second one is that Bachelor degree is not really a good call in Scandinavia, albeit the seven year work experience might help. The degree didn't exist here before EU, and very few people leave their studies at Bachelor level. So the minimal requirement is Master's degree, even though EU says B.Sc is a valid grade. The other certificates I'am not familiar with, and I would suppose that the people working in the computer side are not either.
And now for something completely different:
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Finland itself in Finnish is a derivation of old word, which would mean "Swamp land" in English - do your own conclusions about that. The country does not have historical sights or buildings, and when there is a museum, no Finn wants to visit them. This is due to the fact most of the Finns are still familiar with the stuff represented in museums. Also, the general comment about anything historical or famous is of the lines "We looked for all the sights from the map and passed them as far away as possible". Most of the old architecture has been either destroyed, burned or otherwise removed, and most of the people would prefer it to stay that way, as nobody wants costly, ugly, old, worn-out monuments as a first sight when looking through the window in the morning. Southern Finland, however, differs at this part.
Of the overall culture, Finns are quiet. This is simply because small talk is not used in Finland, i.e. if you ask someone asks a Finn how do you do, they will reply with their current health status, usually something you are not interested in hearing, or would wish you wouldn't know. The lack of small talk is the result of expressing oneself coherently, and honestly, without the need of adding unnecessary words like "would you kindly" or "please" in it. Also, using "sir" or "madam" with a Finn is an insult, unless the Finn is a very old person. This is because no Finn wants to be labelled as a superior - on the other words all Finns are equal. According to Central Europeans, this is a sign of an uncivilized culture and society.
But, every foreigner has to adapt to this, starting from the Finnair flight to Finland, in which the stewardess can easily ask "Whaddya want?" without any words that would hint that she is serving you. And actually she is not serving you, but helping you. So anyone coming here should be able to deal with this. Of course, the make up for this is whenever you need help, you will most certainly get it. At this point it might be good to mention that the Finnish culture itself is very resistant against corruption, to the point that it is not possible to bribe the police - which is also something that often buzzes the visitors arriving from the East. Again a trait that is not attributed to a civilized society.
The usage of alcohol is encouraged by the general population, and it is not a shame to walk home while making a perfect sinusoidal wave during the hole trip, or throwing up some of the precious stuff that gave you the feeling. Fooling around drunken is also tolerated to some degree, but is also an easy way to get your ass kicked. Most Finns feel that it is good that you can unwind time by time as long as you control the alcohol consumption - and here the meaning of control is negotiable.
Also, should you find the thought of having a sauna session with several naked men (if you are a man) or several naked women (if you are woman) difficult, you'll have difficulties surviving here. Foreign men tend to find it difficult to get in to sauna with Finnish women, and vice versa. This is because the heat experience in the sauna is usually too much to people coming from the warm countries. Even if the Finnish women are throwing the water, it is usually far too much to any foreign people. And the catch is, one cannot really make friends with Finns without going to sauna.
The EU has been doing good job to protect the wildlife in Finland, and you might get a chance to witness the eating habits of wolves or bears from close quarters. Hunting is popular here, and foreigners can be taken to hunting trips, if they are smart enough to ask locals about it. Also anyone can walk in the forests of Finland, without asking permissions to do so. There are of course things that you cannot do there, like setting up a fire or using a snowscooter. But with the permission of the landowner, these can also be done. In the similar lines, Finns usually do not use fences around their houses because there is space, the only exception for that is inside city, and even there the fence is rather questionable. This kind of openness about one's property is again a sign of uncivilization, according to Central European observers. I trust their comments to be true.
Food in Finland is considered bad tasting by many foreign observers - Finnish cookery could be called making food without using any spice. Almost all Finnish food is done that way, and because our grandfathers and fathers found it nourishable and good, so do we goddamnit. Good tasting food itself means less in Finland, because eating doesn't have such cultural meanings as in other European countries. The cookery in Finland is basically optimization of cooking time and taste. On the other hand, one can be pretty sure that Finnish food will not cause any complications due to the high hygienic standards used everywhere in the country. The clarity, purity and clean are good traits in Finland and due to this reason the nature is well preserved, water being crystal clear in most locations. Also, a high personal hygienical standard is uphold everywhere, so one cannot cover the stink with deodorant!
The education is basically free inside Finland, while health care costs are kept at reasonable level. High taxes are needed to achieve this. The average income is about 2500 €/month, after taxes the result is about 1700 €/month. The average housing price varies greatly along the North-South line, South being the most expensive. In geographical center of Finland, and average house costs around 70000 € in rural areas and about 200000 € in cities, albeit this would then be a new house.
Many Americans find it difficult to adjust to Finnish culture, where nobody makes a fuzz about what they have done, and anyone - especially foreigner - trying to do so most usually gets laughed out of situation. This is because Finns have a long history of doing exactly what they say, and this can be crosschecked from the history books. If you wanna know about it, go read it, we ain't gonna tell you since we pretty much know already. So it is up to you to prove you are actually up to point. So less talking and more action.
So along the lines of Perihelion's old signature:
Like we would want to see foreigners here!
(National Sarcastic Society of Finland)
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Mika
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Indeed. That was the first thing that stood out from Black Wolf's post. Not a single word about the binge drinking culture we have here. It makes such a difference. If you compare Finland with, say, Sweden. In Sweden, if a man has a hard time with work or anything, he'll go talk to his fellow man. They'll talk it all over, possibly crying and hugging. If a Finnish man has a hard time, he'll just keep it to himself, then go drinking and will most likely get involved in some violent incident, ending up in jail for at least one night.
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Finland itself in Finnish is a derivation of old word, which would mean "Swamp land" in English - do your own conclusions about that.
The conclusion I draw from that is Finland derives from the English, fen land a fen being a swamp or bog!
And Black Wolf's post was a song by the ever great Monty Python and thus was a joke! :P
*Edit* Google ads for this thread at the moment is advertising property in Turkey! Howabout that for a suggestion?
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I spent the summer living in Rome. Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system. Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
:wtf:
Ok, maybe what I'm going to say is influenced by the fact that I live near Milan, and people from Northern Italy are usually thought to hate Southern Italy (and vice-versa), but this is my experience with public transit when I went to Rome on a school trip:
-Subways and buses always late and extremely over-crowded (also Milan subways are over-crowded, but Rome subways were... over-over-crowded :blah: )
-On the last day of the school trip, when we had to return to our train, we arrived at the bus stop and discovered the bus had broken doors and couldn't depart. Instead of sendind a replacement bus, we had to wait the next bus (half an hour). When we were 2 kms from our hotel, the doors of our bus stuck in closed position, so, after emergency opening, we had to wait another bus. As soon as we got on the other bus, the gearbox broke. We did the last 2 kms on foot. Fortunately, Italian trains are always late so we didn't miss our train.
BTW Stealth, I can only tell you to avoid Italy at all. Prices (not only housing prices, like fsphiladelphia said) are always astronomical. Public transit sucks (last friday there has been a public transport drivers strike: I was blocked at the uni for all the day :blah: ). Streets are always jammed. Crime rate is quite high. Justice is strange here (some time ago, a Romanian driver ran over 4 people while he was drunk, killing them. Now he is spending 6 years of "jail" in a luxury hotel near the sea, and he has been given 40000 € to make publicity for jeans and watches :doubt: ). Bureaucracy times and costs are extremely long and high.
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Spain? :pimp: we need your money... :lol: :p . He he.
Now, seriously, here in Canary Islands we've a good weather. Low crime. I think :nervous:
Tell me you live in Tenerife :nervous:
Nope. La Palma. #cough# :nervous:. But i lived in Tenerife two years. And there is a girl there :(. I miss her. #snif#.
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Streets are always jammed.
I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.
Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.
DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
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well i guess i would be promoting sweden here
Women here are HOT, there is a lot of jobs here but the sallary is not good as in denmark or norway. There is alot of things to do here, but that depends on what you are intrested in.
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Women here are HOT,
prove it. pictures or it didnt happen.
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I spent the summer living in Rome. Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system. Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
:wtf:
Ok, maybe what I'm going to say is influenced by the fact that I live near Milan, and people from Northern Italy are usually thought to hate Southern Italy (and vice-versa), but this is my experience with public transit when I went to Rome on a school trip:
I don't know how you can consider Rome a city of the South. It's in the middle! You hate Rome because you consider Milan the true capital :P
BTW Stealth, I can only tell you to avoid Italy at all. Prices (not only housing prices, like fsphiladelphia said) are always astronomical. Public transit sucks (last friday there has been a public transport drivers strike: I was blocked at the uni for all the day :blah: ). Streets are always jammed. Crime rate is quite high. Justice is strange here (some time ago, a Romanian driver ran over 4 people while he was drunk, killing them. Now he is spending 6 years of "jail" in a luxury hotel near the sea, and he has been given 40000 € to make publicity for jeans and watches :doubt: ). Bureaucracy times and costs are extremely long and high.
You're generalizing. I know that living in Milan isn't easy because of the astronomical prices, but it doesn't mean that prices are high everywhere. One of my classmates easily bought a house near the University she wants to attend, something like this would be impossible in Milan.
Streets are always jammed? You're generalizing, again. Milan and Rome are overcrowded, I know, so the streets are jammed. It doesn't mean that all cities in Italy are like Rome and Milan. In the town where my mother comes from, for example, there virtually is no traffic. You see a car every 5 or so minutes.
Crime rate is quite high? Another wrong statement. Other countries, like the UK, have much higher crime rates. When talking to English people I always hear of gangs and stuff like that. One of my relatives visited London and amazingly noticed a worrying crime rate. In my town there has been just one gang(dispatched in a matter of weeks).
Mafia? It's something separate. Here you can walk without having the risk of meeting gangs. Ndrangheta(which is much more powerful than Mafia, IMO) has other things to do, it doesn't care about people walking on the streets. Under this point of view, Southern Italy is much better...people are safe and feel safe.
Justice here is strange because is controlled by Ndrangheta, Mafia, Sacra Corona Unita, Cosa Nostra, Camorra and the other criminal organizations(when they have to cover their operations).
Bureaucracy times are long but the costs are under control. There are so many lawyers here so there's the tendence to lower the prices. Same thing for doctors and engineers.
There are differences between us and the others. Local dialects, though similar to Italian, have been strongly influenced by Latin, Greek, Spanish and Turkish while dialects of the North have been influenced by French. The culture is different, you will never see homosexuals here(there must be some, but they surely don't let the others know it) and people behave well with visitors(due to the Greek tradition, that's probably why I welcome newbies).
Oh, and the weather is just fantastic.
I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.
Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.
DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
I assume it comes straight from an English site or magazine. They always have something bad to say about us. They always criticize us and our government. I would like to see some Italian magazines replying to such pathetic statements.
They have been criticizing us during this summer, probably because of the Formula One Championship. A few years ago a guy wrote a book called "The Dark Side of Italy" or something similar. I read a "counter-article" in a magazine and noticed how ***** that book is. Wrong translations made certain aspects of Italy look weird and wrong statements made us look like animals....without considering all the parts that emphasize the stereotype of the Italian working for Mafia. The best word to describe it is bull****.
I want to know the reasons behind this kind of attention. Why do they focus their attention on us? Maybe because our magazines don't reply to unacceptable offenses? Please note that my opinion is not intended as an offense, I have a high consideration of English members of this community and the UK in general. The problem is that articles like that make me feel terribly offended. I'd like your introduction to the article that leads me to think that you don't trust it completely. I find it a good thing. :)
Back On Topic, I don't think that extract is correct. As far as I know, we're not proud to be the "worst drivers in the world". All people I know drive admirably without turning Italian streets into GP tracks. There are bad drivers, of course, but it's not the case to put everyone to the same level.
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the sallary is not good as in denmark or norway
On the other hand, the state doesn't take quite as much of it away either - I think Denmark pretty much holds the world record for taxes. There's an interesting trend going on between Copenhagen and Malmö, in fact: The Danes are running away from the taxes, and the Swedes are running towards the higher pay. Give it 100 years and the two cities will have switched populations entirely :p
Anyway, I'm actually of two minds about pimping Denmark here. On the one hand, I'm damn proud of my country (and, in my obviously biased opinion, rightfully so), but on the other hand I'm utterly ashamed of some of the politicians that we, the people, have somehow chosen to lead us, and there are also some rather unpleasent facts of life for people who are not used to how things work here. So I guess I'll just stats the facts as well as I can, given the bias that I obviously have on the issue.
About the people in charge: It's not the government as such, they are fairly harmless in that they seem more or less incapable of independant action (they just follow Bush or whoever else is in fashion at the time), it's the party they rely on to stay in power that's the problem. A party which I would personally class as something of a cross between Nazis and Ku Klux Clan with a sprinkling of old-fashioned values on top to make them appeal to gullible old folk. Bottom line is they are positively phobic about any colour besides white-ish pink, any kind of immigration (even by white-ish pink people), and any kind of religion besides lutheran christianity. Several of them have in the past been convicted of racism, and there was a spat a few years back when it was uncovered that they had knowingly and gladly accepted proclaimed nazis into their ranks. Obviously once the secret was out and there was a risk that the gullible old folk they rely on for votes would be offended, the people in question were excluded, but that doesn't change the fact that they were happy to have them in the first place.
So anyway, that's the bad. Them and the taxes. And the weather, which likes to pretend someone is doing a too-good impression of a rain dance more often than I'd like. Also, houses and cars are ludicrously expensive compared to most other countries, though housing prices are currently trending downwards. Anyone moving here from a non-scandinavian country will most likely be appaled by the taxes and the high prices, at least at first.
Another bad is that as a non-EU citizen, one can't simply move here and start working. One needs a work permit, and thanks to the efforts of the aforementioned nationalistic party, that is a non-trivial task. And not really one I know much about how to accomplish, I'm afraid. I do know that it has gotten a bit easier lately as the lack of skilled labour started to take its toll on the economy, so it may be less of a hurdle now than last time I heard about it.
On the good side, we have the standard Scandinavian package of free healthcare and education, a strong social security network, excellent communications with lots of competition in both phone and internet markets, plenty of good-looking blonde women (I can vouch for the Swedes on this, too), considerable personal freedoms, and general lack of offense at stuff like swearing and nudity (yes, I most definitely consider that a good thing ;)). On top of that, we have an unemployment rate which is effectively zero, especially in the IT sector, meaning that as long as you can manage "Hello, World!" or set up a basic network then somebody probably wants to employ you. Wages are also rather high, though I suspect not quite up to US standards for IT jobs; getting there, though, as the lack of people to employ means there's practically a war going on for the services of the best and brightest.
As for the country itself, crime is very low, police are fairly effective and very uncorruptable, local governance actually works as intended and in rare cases might even be called efficient, public transportation for the most part is excellent, and roads during rush hour are practically empty compared to american-style gridlocks - Even in the larger cities (which aren't that large by US standards). Denmark is also arguably a beautiful country, all lowland with rolling hills sporting fields and the occasional forest once you get out into the country. Think the Shire, minus the hobbits and subterranean dwellings. We also have a few areas of rather more dramatic terrain, but nothing remotely approaching true mountains or vast forests - For that, though, Sweden is 15 minutes away by car coming from Copenhagen. Beaches are also excellent, though the water is quite cold compared to, say, California, even during late summer when it's at its warmest. People around here are generally friendly and helpful, as long as you avoid the older generations, many of whom tend to be rather less tolerant of, well, of anything and anyone, really.
Finally, one huge advantage I find with living here is that we're sort of in the middle of everything: By air, Berlin is 1.5 hours south, London is 2 hours west, Stockholm is 2 hours north-east, Olso is 1.5 hours north, Paris is 2 hours south-west - And all those are rather cheap fares, too.
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I assume it comes straight from an English site or magazine. They always have something bad to say about us. They always criticize us and our government. I would like to see some Italian magazines replying to such pathetic statements.
Actually the column it was from is far worse about the English. :p
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Actually the column it was from is far worse about the English. :p
So...does it come from an American magazine/site? :P
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Why? Is it so hard to believe that the British have a sense of humour about ourselves? :D
Actually Stealth that is one advantage of living in the UK. After a year or so you'll finally get British comedy (assuming you don't already).
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I don't suppose anyone's thought to mention the fact you could move to
Alaska or Hawaii with less trouble and it would be both a change of scenery
and of climate, not to mention people.
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I fancy either Canada or Australia myself.
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Why? Is it so hard to believe that the British have a sense of humour about ourselves? :D
Actually Stealth that is one advantage of living in the UK. After a year or so you'll finally get British comedy (assuming you don't already).
We also make jokes about Italy. You should already know Dysko's "The asteroid is breaking apart, Command! It must be a FIAT!", but we joke without offending...
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And Black Wolf's post was a song by the ever great Monty Python and thus was a joke!
Hint:
And now for something completely different
Posted by Lobo
Indeed. That was the first thing that stood out from Black Wolf's post. Not a single word about the binge drinking culture we have here. It makes such a difference. If you compare Finland with, say, Sweden. In Sweden, if a man has a hard time with work or anything, he'll go talk to his fellow man. They'll talk it all over, possibly crying and hugging. If a Finnish man has a hard time, he'll just keep it to himself, then go drinking and will most likely get involved in some violent incident, ending up in jail for at least one night.
But, but, that would mean we actually start solving the problem, i.e. removing the need to drink that much! This would imply kicking the idiots and unnecessary persons out of the chain of command. I believe this is the source of current stress and alcohol consumption levels.
In Sweden, if a man has a hard time with work or anything
You don't want to know how I read that first time...
Mika
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I spent the summer living in Rome. Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system. Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
:wtf:
Ok, maybe what I'm going to say is influenced by the fact that I live near Milan, and people from Northern Italy are usually thought to hate Southern Italy (and vice-versa), but this is my experience with public transit when I went to Rome on a school trip:
-Subways and buses always late and extremely over-crowded (also Milan subways are over-crowded, but Rome subways were... over-over-crowded :blah: )
BTW Stealth, I can only tell you to avoid Italy at all. Prices (not only housing prices, like fsphiladelphia said) are always astronomical. Public transit sucks (last friday there has been a public transport drivers strike: I was blocked at the uni for all the day :blah: ). Streets are always jammed. Crime rate is quite high. Justice is strange here ...
Well, there's truth to some of this, and I only lived in Italy for the summer, so I can't quite say with total accuracy like someone who lives there full-time. But what I will say is, that trains and busses weren't always late in Rome -- and the tram ran most hours of the day, until about 1 or 2 in the morning quite often. The pass cost only 30 euros for a month, and it gave full access to all trams and busses. Getting around Rome with no car was no problem, and we got around the entire city with ease, only rarely having to take taxis.
I will agree that trams, busses, and trains can be quite crowded. The streets are always jammed with both people and cars in Rome, so that is accurate, but to me, it was part of the appeal...I like cities with all kinds of stuff going on at all times with lots of people.
As for crime...I was under the impression that violent crime was pretty low in Rome. We were warned non-stop about pickpockets and possibly having our apartments broken into, but neither of these actually happened. I found that with the same amount of vigilance one would demonstrate in a typical American city, you were fine -- which simply means paying attention to your surroundings, carrying wallet in front pocket, not traveling areas you were unsure of at night alone, etc. That said, there were many nights I was wandering around the streets by myself or with only one other person or with only a female -- sometimes as late as 3, 4, etc., and I never encountered any problems. I'm also 6'2", 200lbs, and that's a bit larger than a the typical Roman male, so perhaps I was perceived as someone to not give a hard time.
I found that Rome was expensive in some areas, but not every area. I cooked very few meals there, so I was subjected to paying for almost all of my meals. It cost a bit after a summer, but no more than typical American east-coast cities, like Philadelphia, NYC, DC, etc.
My judgment may be skewed because as an American from the East Coast, I am used to expensive housing, copious pollution, overcrowding, bad traffic, substandard mass-transit (in my city, Philadelphia, anyhow), and the threat of serious crime, such as murder (again referencing Philadelphia).
I found that Rome was no worse than the East Coast in any of those categories, and quite a bit better in some of them, particularly transit, pollution (air, noise, etc.), and threat of serious/violent crime.
Final note of this rambling post -- I will admit that one time when I was riding the tram, it did derail, which was quite hilarious, and so that is a strike against one aspect of the transit system.
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You don't want to know how I read that first time...
Wow. I didn't think it would actually get misunderstood. Oh well. Guess the Swedish stereotypic image is heavily integrated to the Finnish culture.
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Streets are always jammed.
I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.
Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.
DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
Yeah, this much is spot on -- Italian driving is downright scary -- and I mean that. I never feared for my life so much as when I would take a taxi somewhere. Traffic in Rome was bad and dangerous in all respects, but for what it's worth, it was a hell of a lot worse in Naples.
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Wow. I didn't think it would actually get misunderstood. Oh well. Guess the Swedish stereotypic image is heavily integrated to the Finnish culture.
As heavily as it can ever be :lol:
But seriously, Mikas post prettymuch covers allmost anything a foreigner needs to know about Finland if one is trying to decide if this place was a good one to move into. So I'll just simply agree with it and say you are most welcome here if you decide so, even if it doesn't show up on our faces.
Allthough Spain could be a good choise.
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Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.
Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.
DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
They do have a fair amount of competition from the chinese.......
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Pakistan is pretty bad. I remember being amazed on a daily basis that I wasn't seeing the roads covered in blood and blackened metal.
Take a round about in the UK that might have 2-3 cars on it at the same time. In Pakistan the same sized roundabout would have 2 buses, 5 cars, 3 taxi scouters and 5 motorbikes on it. At night. It was worse at rush hour.
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Did you get to ride in one of those pimped-out buses (http://www.pathcom.com/~alenskyj/aal-Picture-Fazlollah-Abbassi-inKarachi-2004March-DSCN3366.JPG) they have in Pakistan and Afghanistan; the ones that for, whatever reason, look like something Willy Wonka would drive around in if he was on acid?
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buses (http://www.pathcom.com/~alenskyj/aal-Picture-Fazlollah-Abbassi-inKarachi-2004March-DSCN3366.JPG)
Whoa!
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Did you get to ride in one of those pimped-out buses (http://www.pathcom.com/~alenskyj/aal-Picture-Fazlollah-Abbassi-inKarachi-2004March-DSCN3366.JPG) they have in Pakistan and Afghanistan; the ones that for, whatever reason, look like something Willy Wonka would drive around in if he was on acid?
Didn't get to ride any but I saw tonnes of them. Apparently it's a matter of honour out there to make you bus as colourful as possible. I don't think I saw a single bus that wasn't decorated like that the entire time I was there. :)
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IIRC same goes for trucks too
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I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.
Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.
DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
From what I've heard from people who've visited Italy, or lived there (NAS Sigonella), this is extaggerated only in the number of deaths and degree of horror. They're jaded now, and have other methods of population control. Everything else is spot on.
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Women here are HOT,
prove it. pictures or it didnt happen.
look at this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpWnpG8yXRk
its all the proof you will need. the pictures there are from a normal night club in stockholm. its like that in my hometown to :)
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From what I've heard from people who've visited Italy, or lived there (NAS Sigonella), this is extaggerated only in the number of deaths and degree of horror. They're jaded now, and have other methods of population control. Everything else is spot on.
Honestly -- Italian driving is terrifying.
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From what I've heard from people who've visited Italy, or lived there (NAS Sigonella), this is extaggerated only in the number of deaths and degree of horror. They're jaded now, and have other methods of population control. Everything else is spot on.
Honestly -- Italian driving is terrifying.
That might happen in Rome, Milan and Naples. I don't think it is a spread phenomenon. And what do you mean by "terrifying driving"? Someone gets stressed and finds an apparently empty road a good way to calm down. Someone gets stressed, is stuck in the traffic, has an important meeting and...becomes angry. Maybe certain opinions are inspired from the lifestyle of whoever lives in big cities like Rome. As I said, there are towns without traffic. Go there and tell me if all Italians are horrifying drivers.
I'm not racist, but...many of the troubles of our roads are caused from foreigners like Polish and Romanians.
Also read my previous posts. I clearly stated that a person can't visit Rome and feel able to judge Italy. Is a foreigner who visits London able to judge Scottish people under most aspects? I don't think so.
I told you, I have no experiences of bad driving. Dysko's not a bad driver(Edivad is funny at driving :lol:) and I'm going to drive cars in about 3 months. None of the people I know wants to turn Italian streets into GP tracks.
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Women here are HOT,
prove it. pictures or it didnt happen.
look at this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpWnpG8yXRk
its all the proof you will need. the pictures there are from a normal night club in stockholm. its like that in my hometown to :)
ok you win. game over
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so let me make sure i'm on the right page here too:
in order to move to Europe, get a job, settle down, etc, all you'd need is a EU Passport, right? So if i have a portuguese passport, i could move anywhere in the EU and get a job?
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Wait a second. I completely forgot about the main subject of this discussion :blah:
Exclude Italy, even French doctors have problems when trying to do their job here.
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so let me make sure i'm on the right page here too:
in order to move to Europe, get a job, settle down, etc, all you'd need is a EU Passport, right? So if i have a portuguese passport, i could move anywhere in the EU and get a job?
Yeah thats pretty mutch it. if you have passport of a country that is member of the European Union you can move to any country in EU that you want, and take part of the social benefits in that country.
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He said "move anywhere in the EU and get a job", which isn't true. As I said, laws don't allow foreigners to get a job so easily.
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Honestly -- Italian driving is terrifying.
That might happen in Rome, Milan and Naples. I don't think it is a spread phenomenon. And what do you mean by "terrifying driving"?
Also read my previous posts. I clearly stated that a person can't visit Rome and feel able to judge Italy. Is a foreigner who visits London able to judge Scottish people under most aspects? I don't think so.
Well, what I mean by terrifying is that most North Americans think that driving and being driven in Italy is dangerous to the point where it's frightening to be in a car.
As for visiting Rome, I'll agree -- visiting New York or LA is by no means an indication of what the entire USA is like. On the other hand, I was in Rome for over 6 weeks, spent a weekend in Assisi, spent a weekend in Naples/Sorrento, spent a few days in Venice...so I got to see large and medium sized cities, the countryside, etc.
The driving was varied, but I'll stick to what I've said -- driving in Rome and Naples is terrifying! :)
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Now, seriously, DON'T come to the Netherlands if you are intrested in Politics. It's a mess. It also is *BLEEP* in another way, and that is how some (most) of the dutch react to "foreigners" these days.
And I should know, I live here :shaking:.
And we have a politician called Geert Wilders, which is basicly Jack Thompson when he was still advertising against the Islam. People actually VOTE for him
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He said "move anywhere in the EU and get a job", which isn't true. As I said, laws don't allow foreigners to get a job so easily.
It depends on if your country is a member of the European Union then you have a right to work in any country that you want in the European Union, but i don't know exaclty what the law states for those that are not citizens of a EU county. I guess you would have to get a work permit visa or something similar.
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i am a portuguese citizen, and i carry a portuguese passport.
that said, i could, in reality, move to say, Norway or Sweden (or any country part of the EU), and get a job right away, no paperwork required, right?
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Pretty much. I certainly know it works that way here, indeed we have some 4 different EU nationalities my workplace and all of them just moved in and got themselves a job, no questions asked. Also, in some countries you're even eligible to vote in some elections after residing there for a certain time, citizen or not. Here in Denmark, for instance, after living here for 3 years you have the right to vote in municipal and county elections regardless of citizenry.
Being an EU citizen basically opens up most of the continent as far as working and choosing a place to live is concerned. It's a free reign.
[edit] Which, in my opinion, is one of the best things about the EU. There's so much to see, so much to try, so much to do and so many places to go to, and there are little to no hindrances to doing it other than desire, finances and a little wanderlust. It's a nice feeling knowing that should I feel like it, I can go live and/or work in either of Paris, Berlin, London, Madrid, Athens, Warzaw, Rome, Glasgow, Dublin, Lisbon, Valetta, Brussels or any other interesting EU city with little more paperwork (though rather a lot more moving) required than for moving to a different apartment just down the road. Travel anywhere, live anywhere, work anywhere. That... is cool.
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that said, i could, in reality, move to say, Norway or Sweden (or any country part of the EU), and get a job right away, no paperwork required, right?
Minor detail being that Norway is not EU member state....
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oh yeah. i should've said sweden or finland :p
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Be careful, however - some countries have citizenship which doesn't automatically grant right of abode. IIRC for EU purposes that wouldn't let you get a job in member states. Make sure you check out your citizenship rights before you move.
In most cases, unless you were born in a EU member state or naturalized as a citizen of one, you're going to need a work permit at a minimum.
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Well, what I mean by terrifying is that most North Americans think that driving and being driven in Italy is dangerous to the point where it's frightening to be in a car.
As for visiting Rome, I'll agree -- visiting New York or LA is by no means an indication of what the entire USA is like. On the other hand, I was in Rome for over 6 weeks, spent a weekend in Assisi, spent a weekend in Naples/Sorrento, spent a few days in Venice...so I got to see large and medium sized cities, the countryside, etc.
The driving was varied, but I'll stick to what I've said -- driving in Rome and Naples is terrifying! :)
Rome, Milan and Naples are known to be a bit chaotic so expect the drivers to behave "strangely". I have recently visited Assisi and liked it(except for four ***** English tourists I really wanted to kill...), drivers there are ok.
And visit more places! The cities you mentioned aren't enough! :P
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[edit] Which, in my opinion, is one of the best things about the EU. There's so much to see, so much to try, so much to do and so many places to go to, and there are little to no hindrances to doing it other than desire, finances and a little wanderlust. It's a nice feeling knowing that should I feel like it, I can go live and/or work in either of Paris, Berlin, London, Madrid, Athens, Warzaw, Rome, Glasgow, Dublin, Lisbon, Valetta, Brussels or any other interesting EU city with little more paperwork (though rather a lot more moving) required than for moving to a different apartment just down the road. Travel anywhere, live anywhere, work anywhere. That... is cool.
To an extent, this is true of the United States -- sure, our cities are inherently more homogeneous than Europe's great cities are to one another, but there's quite a bit of diversity of experience to be had between NYC, Philadelphia, DC, Miami, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Chicago, San Francisco, Hawaii, the Rocky Mountains, Seattle/Pacific Northwest, Texas, Southwest, etc.
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Rome, Milan and Naples are known to be a bit chaotic so expect the drivers to behave "strangely". I have recently visited Assisi and liked it(except for four ***** English tourists I really wanted to kill...), drivers there are ok.
And visit more places! The cities you mentioned aren't enough! :P
I thought Assisi was one of the most beautiful places I've ever been, and I've been to SF, the Caribbean, and some other just really lovely places, but Asssi was really special. Anyhow, I agree about the places I've been not being enough; I'd love to see the entirety of the country. Italy really won me over. As for the chaos of Rome and Naples -- I loved that part of those places.
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I found a nice way to promote countries(ignore my posts there, please :blah:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOo36FnSTqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmcFGBzni_g&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSz0_XJD4s&NR=1
:lol:
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I found a nice way to promote countries(ignore my posts there, please :blah:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOo36FnSTqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmcFGBzni_g&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSz0_XJD4s&NR=1
:lol:
aw man, you're making me all nostalgic for Italy!