Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on January 11, 2008, 12:10:21 pm
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So, let's take as a given the following -- I recognize that these are all contentious points, based entirely on speculation, but I just want to toss this out there.
This is not a theory I believe in with all my heart; I merely present it for the sake of entertainment.
Abstract, for those too lazy to read: the destruction of the Lucifer crippled the Shivans' strategic command-and-control abilities, and their actions in FS2 were, as a result, confused and ineffectual. The final destruction of Capella was a call for help across galactic distances, using a supernova as as beacon.
Speculative premises, then:
1. The Sathanas is a relatively combat-ineffective juggernaught design. It is not a warship to the Shivans, but a specialized effector for certain applications of their subspace technology -- perhaps including the opening of jump nodes and the destruction of stars. It has tactical value, but it is not a main-line warship.
2. The destruction of Capella by the Sathanas fleet was one of two things: first, the generation of a supernode (this is a common theory) or, second, a signal. I hypothesize, without real evidence, that the Shivans sacrificed multiple vessels in an attempt to touch off a supernova as a signal to distant allies -- extragalactic Shivans. Capella was chosen as the target over Gamma Draconis, but why I do not know -- perhaps properties of the star, or perhaps because of the potential for collateral damage.
I would like to advance the idea of the FS2 Shivans as a confused and leaderless force.
At no point in FS2 do the Shivans exhibit the ruthless, unstoppable goal-seeking behavior of the Shivans in FS1. They appear to have lost their offensive momentum. I posit that the destruction of the Lucifer beheaded the leadership of the Shivan collective.
We see at the end of FS1 that the destruction of the Lucifer leaves the Shivan fleets confused and helpless. It may be that the Lucifer was a unique vessel that served as the 'queen' of Shivan forces in the local area or in the galaxy at large. This kind of centralized intelligence is a common cliche in science fiction, and it rarely has a good explanation. I suggest that the Lucifer itself might be a post-singularity AI of some kind -- a 'Power', for those here who read Vernor Vinge -- and that its mission requirements prevent it from granting similar intellect to its subordinates.
The Lucifer spearheaded the Shivan attempt to exterminate the Terran and Vasudan species, possibly because the Shivans knew that this area of space had once hosted the Ancients -- a powerful and dangerous race that had come very near to uncovering weaknesses in Shivan technology.
The destruction of the Lucifer left the Shivan collective in chaos. After years of rebuilding the Shivans achieved a kind of order, but when the Knossos at Gamma Draconis opened, they were only able to perform an ineffectual sortie to secure their new beachhead -- a single cruiser and a group of transports. (In fact, based on a CBanim before 'The Lion at the Door', there may have been a Ravana on station at one point which then departed back to the nebula.)
The technological progress of the GTVA forces might have been easily countered by the Shivans under ordinary circumstances, but as it was, the Shivans were only able to act effectively on the defensive: deploying successively larger and larger vessels to attack GTVA warships, only to lose them to fighter strikes. At last they resorted to the deployment of one of their Sathani, in the same system-sterilizing role as the Lucifer -- only to find that the GTVA had a match for that as well.
In the end, with their first Sathanas sortie destroyed, the Shivans found themselves with the raw firepower necessary to destroy the GTVA but none of the requisite tactical acumen. They seem to have lost the capability to use transient or hidden nodes to outflank GTVA forces -- the only canon explanation for the 'skipping' behavior of Shivan attacks in FS1.
Hampered by the bulk of their own war machine and the absence of any firm guiding will, the Shivans called for help, activating a supernova messenger contingency to signal other Shivan groups throughout the local universe.
This might lead to :V:'s hints that FS3 would contain an 'even bigger problem' and vessels as large as planetary bodies.
There have been other theories I've read which suggested that the Shivans overestimated the capabilities of the GTVA by a considerable margin. I would like to give credit where it's due.
I am not a strong believer in this theory -- I like the idea of the Shivans as inexplicable and unstoppable destroyers -- but I do think it's an interesting one to consider.
Thoughts?
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I assume you mean that the signal propagates through subspace unless you expect the Shivans to wait a bloody long time. :p
One thing you don't explain though. Why Capella?
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"Chief-Assemblyman Putin, what happened to Capella?"
"It sank 'sploded."
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Ah, a chance to put my personal theory on the differences between the FS1 and FS2 Shivans to work, excellent.
The question that always sticks in my mind is one that none of these non-canonical theories about the Shivans ever seems to address: Why did the Shivans wait 30 years to send a follow up force, and why didn't they reappear in the systems they first attacked? The Ancients believed they had trespassed, overstepped their bounds somehow. From the voice over narration, it doesn't sound as if the Shivans found them, but the other way around. Their empire was greater then the limits of known space, and yet most of the jump nodes (admittedly not ALL of them) that are not already known are too unstable for any but the masters of subspace travel (The Shivans). It seems patently obvious when the Knossos is first unveiled: This was the mechanism the Ancients used to stretch their empire across more worlds then man currently knows. The discovery of a second and then 3rd Knossos cements that.
Who knows how much further they extended before finally encountering the Shivans? And how could activating 1 Knossos device trigger countless others on the opposite side of a subspace portal, countless lightyears away? It makes much more sense to believe that when the Ancients retreated to their home system (GTVA space) they attempted to shut down the first knossos leading to the systems the Shivans came from.
Like the GTVA discovered, the jump node didn't instantly collapse, but had been stabilized. The Ancients wouldn't have any reason to know this ahead of time, after all, they were the masters of space, crushing all they encountered. Why collapse portals when you enter them in the certain knowledge of your superiority? And so the Shivans followed them, and all their works were undone.
So what does that have to do with the Lucifer and it's rather small battle group attacking the GTA and PVN 10,000 years later? The subspace portal in Gamma Draconis was no longer active. What the Ancients set out to do when they shut the device off was accomplished through time, effectively cutting off all the systems on the other side. Since the Shivans never seem to study the technology of other races, and since the gate was on the opposite side, they had no ability to follow. And yet there were still Shivans on this side of the node.
I surmise the Lucifer and it's fleet were somehow trapped, perhaps several lifetimes (or even longer) before. Shivans possess much greater knowledge of subspace travel and thus can use nodes too unstable for Terran or Vasudan craft, so the known galaxy for them would be quite a bit larger then it is for us, but still potentially cut off from the regions they came from. And so they wandered, who knows for how long, until they detected the subspace travel we generated and set out to destroy us.
I don't think the Shivans in Gamma Draconis had ever encountered humanity before, nor had the Lucifer's fleet been in contact with the rest of the Shivan race. Had they been, simply destroying the Lucifer should have triggered the sort of response the destruction of the SJ Sathanas generated (unless you think they built those in 30 years), and it would have been on their terms of engagement. They came through the node in Gamma Draconis and attacked us because we opened that door, and Shivans are attracted to significant subspace activity. Had Bosch not pursued his ultimately futile agenda, the GTVA might never have encountered the Shivans again.
That sums up my position on the subject. Plus, if the Sathanas isn't intended to be a full on combat spacecraft, I'd hate to see what they consider an actual warship.
So while it's an interesting theory, I'd disagree with it for all the same reasons I came up with my own, as it doesn't really explain the particular points I addressed. Well, other then maybe the jumpnodes thing, but there's a limit to your freedom of motion when you're in fact restricted to one point of entry into a system with only one known exit, and do keep in mind the Shivans never tried to go past Capella to begin with. There's no reason to suggest that the Shivans have lost their mastery over unstable subspace nodes when the notion that Gamma Draconis doesn't have other nodes going anywhere useful is simpler. Remember, the Lucifer fleet was already in our space when it started systematically destroying us, and if it really had been wandering around the galaxy for millenia they probably had explored it all previously so they'd know where those nodes led.
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"Chief-Assemblyman Putin, what happened to Capella?"
"It sank 'sploded."
Why does this remind me of Spuk, Kork and Schrotty? ....(T)Raumschiff Surprise .. aaah, those were some good gags!
LOLZ:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=traumschiff&search_sort=relevance&search_category=0&search=Search&v=&uploaded=&filter=1&page=1
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I still think they nuked the star to make a supernode, not as a signal...
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They're both possibilities I like, and I'd be happy to use either one if I was penning a campaign story.
Karajorma --
I assume you mean that the signal propagates through subspace unless you expect the Shivans to wait a bloody long time. :p
One thing you don't explain though. Why Capella?
I did address that, rather briefly.
Capella was chosen as the target over Gamma Draconis, but why I do not know -- perhaps properties of the star, or perhaps because of the potential for collateral damage.
I'd imagined there'd be a subspace signal -- maybe the star was a booster for the signal? Or perhaps they're just very, very patient. The contingency they were activating might have been a long-term one.
Marcus, I've read your theory and I think it contributed a great deal to my own. They both seem possible to me, and again, they'd both make interesting premises for a campaign (though the nice thing about this one is the way it hooks into a greater menace.)
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What about my theory? :nervous:
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It suckoroz, HA! :drevil:...Yes, I'm EVIIIIIL...
Now for a "better" theory - the shivans might have been cold and were simply trying to turn up the heat a bit, but they broke the sun.
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It suckoroz, HA! :drevil:...Yes, I'm EVIIIIIL...
I think somebody snuck a snuke up your snizz... And I thought you were a man, too.
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What about my theory? :nervous:
Actually, yes, I did like yours a lot. I think it was what actually triggered this line of thought.
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Naahh, this theory is doomed because here comes mine (and it's not a long @$$ story because it's already past 1:00 AM here):
The Shivans were scared s**tless, and the only hope they've seen to survive as a species was to jump to some really far away place. They decided to make a supernode by detonating a star, warping out and leaving a supernova behind to make sure they aren't followed untill they could destroy the supernode from the other side.
They also detonated Capella too early for many ships to either make it to the supernode, or charge their jump drives to warp out, because they simply ran out of time.
Whoever or whatever was the reason they were running remains a mystery for the GTVA, because we didn't have any units in Gamma Draconis to find out once the Shivans evac'd their fleet to Capella.
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:shaking: I don't think I want to know what chases Shivans away!
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I have a theory...either they're running from Derek (not so) Smart or from An0n.
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I have a theory...either they're running from Derek (not so) Smart or from An0n.
an0n is not capitalized, for he is so cruel he is beyond grammar.
*chainsaw*
So they're running from some evil monster that eats planets for breakfast? The idea's good for a campaign, but it doesn't explain the differences between the FS1 and FS2 fleets, or why the FS1 fleet decided to go for a turkey shoot while the Sathanes decided to run away.
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I have a theory...either they're running from Derek (not so) Smart or from An0n.
an0n is not capitalized, for he is so cruel he is beyond grammar.
And that's exactly why I do capitalize it. It's an insult!
Hm..what do you think Derek did to scare of shivans? Was he caught ..doing inapropriate things with a sathanas? :LOL:
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Your comments are getting increasingly annoying. They're just simply bad jokes that don't add anything to the discussion. :doubt:
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Alright..I maybe be overdoing it with the comedy bit.. :P
so, to get back on topic.
It's not a bad theory General Butta. It does explain some things nicely.
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Hemhem.
Battuta.
And thank you.
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That was NOT deliberate. I was in no way trying to say butt.
It was a typo. Sry. ;)
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Naahh, this theory is doomed because here comes mine (and it's not a long @$$ story because it's already past 1:00 AM here):
The Shivans were scared s**tless, and the only hope they've seen to survive as a species was to jump to some really far away place. They decided to make a supernode by detonating a star, warping out and leaving a supernova behind to make sure they aren't followed untill they could destroy the supernode from the other side.
They also detonated Capella too early for many ships to either make it to the supernode, or charge their jump drives to warp out, because they simply ran out of time.
Whoever or whatever was the reason they were running remains a mystery for the GTVA, because we didn't have any units in Gamma Draconis to find out once the Shivans evac'd their fleet to Capella.
I profoundly dislike this theory, for the same reason I think giving monsters human motivations and drives diminishes their terrifying nature. Attributing fear to the Shivans is one step on the path to humanizing their actions, and before you know it we're all holding hands and singing Kumbaya.
Obviously that was an exaggeration, but nothing we've watched them do suggests fear is a motivating force behind their actions, and for all we know they aren't even capable of feeling that emotion. I'm trying to remember all the missions in the game and briefing descriptions, and I can't for the life of me recall a single time that Shivans have ever retreated, even when they're obviously losing. That could just be mission design of course, but it helps to make them that much more of an unknown malevalent force in the universe.
Saying they were motivated by fear chips away at the mystique, and diminishes their alien nature. I can't countenance any theory that does that.
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What? You saying having feelings of any kind is too human for aliens?
I dunno. I don't think shivans being afraid of something makes them less alien. It depends of what they fear.
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What? You saying having feelings of any kind is too human for aliens?
I dunno. I don't think shivans being afraid of something makes them less alien. It depends of what they fear.
That can work in a narrative, but in order to make the appropriate impact you have to first demonstrate that this terrifying opponent (in this case Shivans) is essentially completely fearless and then make it clear that something you haven't seen yet is capable of scaring something that otherwise doesn't know the meaning of fear. Then the reader/viewer/player gets to wonder what could possibly be worse then the devil they know.
Maybe [V] meant to do that in a sequel, but they certainly didn't in FS2. There isn't anything to suggest they were running away, so the whole "running from the boogeyman" does indeed diminish them, because that leaves it up to fan speculation to produce said boogeyman, and I've yet to hear one single idea anyone has proposed that could fit the bill. None of the "forces behind the Shivans" or "things fighting the Shivans" have been the least bit scary, they're all just pale shadows of the Shivans themselves, or a big fat scifi cliche.
Come up with something that can top the Shivans and maybe then I'll listen to the "Shivans are cowards" theory. Until then, it's, in the words of Eric Cartman, "Hella lame".
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It would make an interesting 'parallel' storyline. Let's go back 8000 years: the Shivans are pawning the Ancients. They're fighting in the nebula at the moment. Desperate to save their lives, the Ancients finally turn off the Knossos in GDrax (Why did they wait so long? Perhaps special resources were needed, or they had to do it between the Shivan attacks, I don't know...). However, a tiny part of the Shivan task force has already got through, and that was enough to destroy the Ancients. Cut off from the rest of their race, these Shivans float around for 8000 years, until they detect intense subspace usage again. That small part of the old Shivan fleet is now known as the Lucifer fleet.
During the Great War, a part of the Terran fleet gets cut off from the rest as well (the majority of our fleet was in Sol, it was about the only system the Lucifer did not sweep clean). The Shivan cut-off part gets destroyed.
In the meantime, something is scaring the Shivan main fleet quite a lot. They build Sathanas transports, designed to evacuate all Shivans to some far-off place. But they can't find a star meeting their needs. When Bosh re-activates the Knossos in GDrax, a Shivan recon cruiser comes through, sees that GDrax doesn't meet their needs, and proceeds to Capella. There, it encounters the GTC Vigilant, and destroys it (they're xenocidal, after all). Before it gets destroyed by the Chartage and the Dahshor, it 'scans' the Capella star, and sends a message to the other Shivans: 'This is the star we've been looking for'. Immediately, the Saths converge on GTVA space (one was probably stationed closer than the others), while the bulk of the Shivan fleet -which could be manned by robots- remains behind to buy them time. Only a few ships escort the Saths to Capella. The Saths jump to some far-off place, closing the door behind them. The other Shivan ships, unable to use the supernode, remain behind to try and eliminate all witnesses. During the Second Shivan Incursion, a significant chunk of the GTVA fleet (the cut-off part) gets destroyed as well.
Dare I say it - FS3 would hardly involve any Shivans: they're destroyed by the Capella explosion and/or by that which they were running from. (We would have re-opened the Sol-DS node in between.) Instead, we would meet this huge enemy even the Shivans couldn't defeat, and they would chase us all over known space, just as they had done with the Shivans. The Vasudans probably get completely annihilated. GTVA Command is desperate. All humans retreat to Sol, closing the door behind them (=blowing up the node).
The trilogy would end as the story once started: Earth will always remain isolated.
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I don't like the whole "Shivans are running from a bigger enemy" theory to be honest. It's been done so many times before, especially in REALLY REALLY big campaigns that never get finished.
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They could be running from...the transcendant :lol:...something scary in a way other than "my plasma gun is bugger"..something THEY can't grasp or know how to fight.
We f'course defeat him..with a wing of priest exorcizing demons ;7
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something scary in a way other than "my plasma gun is bugger"..something THEY can't grasp or know how to fight.
Yeah, good idea.
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Since some people might not have seen it. Here (http://mindgames.hard-light.net/Background.html)'s one that keeps the Shivans strange. :D
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Ah yes, that's one of my favorite theories, other than mine. Freaky, but cool, and well thought-out.
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I agree, I've always liked that one.
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Since some people might not have seen it. Here (http://mindgames.hard-light.net/Background.html)'s one that keeps the Shivans strange. :D
Personally, I hate it. With a passion.
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The perfect outcome from the 3 of you then. If you'd liked it then we'd obviously need a rewrite. :p
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Personally, I hate it. With a passion.
You seem to hate everything that doesn't come from your own ass imagination. :p
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Personally, I hate it. With a passion.
You seem to hate everything that doesn't come from your own ass imagination. :p
No, I just have this hard to explain, almost on a atomic level revulsion to energy-based life forms. It's like a reflex.
The perfect outcome from the 3 of you then. If you'd liked it then we'd obviously need a rewrite.
Keep on truckin'..I mean, attacking. The second you're not attacking me I know I'm doing something wrong.
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No, I just have this hard to explain, almost on a atomic level revulsion to energy-based life forms. It's like a reflex.
So you hated Blue Planet, huh. Poor, poor soul.
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You seem to have a revulsion to a lot of the science fiction concepts that don't fall into the very 'soft', limited arena of stuff like Freespace.
Any particular reason? I'm not criticizing, just curious.
Also curious to hear what you think of the relativistic-kill-vehicle idea for taking out Sathanas juggernaughts in that other thread.
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I dislike super-high tech and nigh-impossible concepts that defy reason. I like my universes believable.
I barely digested the FS2 supernova, mostly because it was handled far better than in other sci-fi.
Like in Star Trek they shoot a small missile at the sun.. *boooom*
Heck, in FS2 at least they made it look like it's a really difficult and time consuming matter. 100's of ship..days of blasting the sun. And it even then it appeared to go out of control.
AS to the RKV...the question is how much energy one would require to accelerate it to such super speeds. The capitals in FS don't seem to be going very fast.
The second problem it actually hitting anything with it, and timing it with the Sathanas would be the biggest problem. What if it takes days for the chunk to accelerate to relativistic speeds? You can't predict the location of a sath 15 minutes in advance, let alone more.
It may be simpler to just blockade the node with hulks, asteroid and mines.
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You should read some hard SF -- Alastair Reynolds, Iain M. Banks, Vernor Vinge, Greg Benford. Those are very big ideas presented in ways that are not only scientifically plausible but maybe probable. In some cases they provide the equations and mathematics behind the ideas.
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Not to mention reading What Does A Martian Look Like in which they mention life forms not to dissimilar to the Starborn living on stars.
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Not to mention reading What Does A Martian Look Like in which they mention life forms not to dissimilar to the Starborn living on stars.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .. I said I like my sci-fi believable.
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That's actually a science book by a pair of noted xenologers. I trust them to know more about the subject than you do.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .. I said I like my sci-fi believable.
Why isn't it believable that there can be life on stars?
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Any idiot can write a "scientific" book. Not to mention that scientist have often gone waay ahead of themselves with many claims due to their excitment.
Life on a star? Millions of nuclear reactions that can vaporize Earth in an instant? Ultra-high gravity? Pressure? Heat?
I don't buy that energy beings crap.
"But it might be a DIFFERENT from of life" you say?
Energy can't think. It can't move by its own as it pleases. I might as well call a rock alive. It's just as likely. :doubt:
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Take some physics, Trashman: you're dead wrong. You seem to be confusing the actual scientific process, one of speculation and testing, with some kind of hysterical 'scientists leaping to conclusions.'
Complex organisms built of magnetic fields and plasma have long been suggested as potential inhabits for stellar atmospheres or the accretion disks of black holes. It's not something widely suggested outside of science fiction, but it is extremely plausible -- largely because non-science-fiction writers don't tend to make postulates about extraterrestrial life.
In his Galactic Center books, Greg Benford -- a physicist, professor, and a very intelligent man -- actually used the presence of a Magnetic Mind in the dense areas around the galactic center to explain very complex formations spotted in radio-telescope images of that area.
What's important to life is not the ability to be 'solid', it's the ability to encode information. Very complex informational patterns could arise in a such an energy-dense environment.
If you don't believe in the possibility of energy beings, are you next going to tell me you don't believe in von Neumann machines or 'metal life'?
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1000's of scientists have been proven wrong trought the ages.
Energy can't think. Period.
If you can explain to me how it can think and keep it's shape/form, how it can communicate wiht others of it's kind then I may change my mind.
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Um, of course. That's the point. Hundreds of theories are proven wrong for every one that is taken to be correct.
But believing in energy beings is based on the exact same science that powers nuclear reactors and even the computer that you're using right now. It doesn't take any newfangled theories at all.
Picture the accretion disk of a black hole.
This is a very energy-dense environment, full of plasma and magnetic fields. Now, understand this: your brain functions in part due to electromagnetic interactions.
Imagine that these dense, complex magnetic fields interact with each other like the neurons of the brain: some remain static, rooted in the slow rotation of the plasma disc. These are memories. Other magnetic domains are transient, rapid, rather like the passing thoughts we experience. Behold: intelligent life. The creature's substrate is plasma instead of cells, anchoring vast currents and electromagnetic interactions, thousands of times more complex than the cells of our body. It is a computer: except that the hardware is sunfire and radiation.
It keeps its form through gravity and the structure of the black hole's disc -- which is very well understood by physicists.
The accretion disk being can 'speak' in radio waves and even move by shaping the black hole's high-energy jets.
Are you going to tell me that this is totally implausible? I suggest you examine the research done in the writing of the novel Eater, which describes just such an organism. Every existing model of electromagnetism and astronomy suggests that such a creature is totally possible. It's not implausible at all.
If you don't agree I've made a few valid points, it's going to be clear to me that you're just holding on stubbornly to what you believe in the face of some pretty good evidence.
Do you want credentials? I myself go to a major research university known for its physics. I've learned relativity and quantum mechanics. I know my stuff.
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No thank you. I've seen the other five threads where people tried to explain things to you. You only seem to listen when they're doing your homework for you (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,50316.20.html).
Does anybody else have something to add to this discussion?
Ad hominem aynyone?
And what you say if is pure 10000% bull*** and you know it.
I asked for help - advice, eventual answers to some question I'll be asking 8like how does this work? You think I should do this like this?) Nobody is writing this thing for me.
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Don't forget to read what I posted.
Also, if you want more reading on the topic, check out The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle -- a famous astronomer, not some crackpot theorist. These people aren't postulating theories that could lead to energy beings, they're applying the same principles that make your phone and your electronics run.
And what you say if is pure 10000% bull*** and you know it.
Actually, I've got to say I kind of agree with him. You seem like you're being intentionally obtuse.
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This is a very energy-dense environment, full of plasma and magnetic fields. Now, understand this: your brain functions in part due to electromagnetic interactions.
In part. The brain is a highly complex piece of natual engineering. Electro-chemichal reaction..not just electrons moving around.
The power in the computer doesn't think. The cuircits do.
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Hah! And the plasma pathways and zones of charge in the accretion disk are exactly that: circuits.
The accretion disk is very, very complex. There's more going on there than in the brain, and more potential for complexity.
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Actually, I've got to say I kind of agree with him. You seem like you're being intentionally obtuse.
What I've said to him is ad hominem, but if you want me to back up the reason for my conclusions, I will.
However, I'm not quite so hypocritical to write up three or four paragraphs explaining things and derail the thread to ***** about him derailing threads. :p
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"They're made out of meat." (http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html)
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"They're made out of meat."
I thought about posting a link to that one too, good story, really applies to the current discussion.
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Dude, TrashMan. You know **** compared to what established scientists know, so stop acting like you know everything about the universe, because you obviously do not.
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Dude, TrashMan. You know **** compared to what established scientists know, so stop acting like you know everything about the universe, because you obviously do not.
I agree, although I wouldn't say it that way. Remember, TMan, we are made out of atoms. Atoms aren't supposed to think, move and communicate by their own either.
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So is a rock. Yet it doesn't think..
Our body is composed of thousands of completely different specialized cells. Millions of DIFFERENT parts put together.
It's far more than just "a bunch of atoms".
speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.
There might be life completely different from ours..but intelligent life made out of energy?
I'll believe that when I see it.
Hah! And the plasma pathways and zones of charge in the accretion disk are exactly that: circuits.
The accretion disk is very, very complex. There's more going on there than in the brain, and more potential for complexity.
:wtf:
A cloud of plasma is a stable circuit? More complex than a brain? :lol:
Wouldn't pathways change by the slighest breeze? Assuming it could even hold or process sensible thoughs of any kind, thus mucking up the "brain"..basicly making it like someone paying with a ice pick with your brain.
Dude, TrashMan. You know **** compared to what established scientists know, so stop acting like you know everything about the universe, because you obviously do not.
Neither do the "esablished scientists" (and I very much question how established they are).
I'm not going to believe anything a few scientists say just like that, like it's a friggin word of God.
They have been wrong many times, even the majority was wrong for a long time.
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Am I the only one finding it ironic that TrashMan tries to base his reasoning in science while arguing that science has been wrong before?
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What's really ironic is that he's not even good at that science. :D
speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.
:lol:
You fail at physics.
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Going back to my post thats only been noticed by one person...
One of the failings that I see in science fiction is everything is too familiar. The aliens look like us only with pointy ears or ridges on their heads, warfare is done like WW2 was, computers look and feel like anything we have today. On one hand, its good so we can easily relate to that and imagine it, but its hardly realistic (which is what you seem to be complaining about).
My own belief about the aliens is, if they're out there, they won't bother even talking to us because they couldn't comprehend us, and we couldn't comprehend them. They could observe us, but with over a billion years of belief that you are the only way life can exist, it would be hard to truly understand it.
I would say sentient meat is as likely as sentient energy and anything else you could (or perhaps could not) imagine.
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I noticed it. I've made similar comments myself in the past.
It's quite possible that alien life would be so different we couldn't understand it, but I don't think that's necessarily how it has to be. There's a lot of universe out there after all. Depending on how widespread they are we should be able to eventually find something we can talk to (assuming we last long enough to do so).
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I think I might've gone a bit too far with "never understanding". They could recognize how we work and how we can communicate, but it'll still take quite a leap for them to get over the initial "that's not how we work."
I quite liked the Ender's Game series aliens. While physically familiar, their method of living and functioning is quite alien.
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What's really ironic is that he's not even good at that science. :D
speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.
:lol:
You fail at physics.
If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.
Am I the only one finding it ironic that TrashMan tries to base his reasoning in science while arguing that science has been wrong before?[/quoteg
Obviously, it's not always wrong. Proven things are well..proven....wishful theories are...well.. pretty much just fancy talk till tehy are proven.
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If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.
"Sir...the internet isn't made up of tubes."
"What the hell are you saying? That there's no internet? You're a fool if you think that."
Obviously, it's not always wrong. Proven things are well..proven....wishful theories are...well.. pretty much just fancy talk till tehy are proven.
So what's your proof that there's no such thing as an energy being? Remember that a lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack. :D
I think I might've gone a bit too far with "never understanding". They could recognize how we work and how we can communicate, but it'll still take quite a leap for them to get over the initial "that's not how we work."
I quite liked the Ender's Game series aliens. While physically familiar, their method of living and functioning is quite alien.
Agreed.
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Um, Trashman, energy is photons, not electrons or neutrons or protons.
You may be thinking of electrical current. That's not really energy, it's movement of electrons between atoms.
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I thought he might have meant photons but it's clear from his response that he really meant electrons since he didn't correct himself. Besides AFAIK photons aren't what the energy is since they only apply to EM radiation and not things like kinetic or potential energy.
speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.
:lol:
You fail at physics.
If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.
:wakka:
Stop it! You're killing me!
On the other hand at least this explains the reason you're having such a problem with energy beings. I'd find a being made up of just electrons pretty hard to believe in too. :lol:
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Hrrm, you've gut a point there. But kinetic and potential energy are inherent in all forms of matter/energy, so they're not really specific to 'energy beings.' If you included those types of energy in the makeup of an 'energy being', then we're all energy beings, since we operate on chemical potential and kinetic energy.
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Oh I agree but a comment like "Energy is just photons" is incorrect.
Similarly the MG Starborn or the races you have mentioned aren't simply EM radiation which somehow is intelligent. They do have physical forms. It's just that instead of cell walls and inter-atomic attraction keeping them coherent it's electrostatic and magnetic effects.
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Just a bit confusing about the energy-beings thing (i think it's plausible but i got a bit confused with the definitions)
Energy: In physics and other sciences, energy (from the Greek ενεργός, energos, "active, working")[1] is a scalar physical quantity that is a property of objects and systems which is conserved by nature. Energy is often defined as the capacity to do work. Several different forms of energy, such as kinetic, potential, thermal, electromagnetic, chemical, nuclear, and mass have been defined to explain all known natural phenomena.
Then, like it was said already, we are all already energy beings after all.
Now, the definition of life is far more complex than that, and since there is no unified consensus on what life is whatsoever makes it all more hard to explain... by some definitions we could say that supernova stars are alive since they give birth to several new stars and we could call that reproduction...
Now for it to be intelligent is another business, we humans almost didn't made the jump into intelligence, it's believed that we became intelligent thanks to spare time to use our brains on something else than survival itself; and that could have happened to any other species!
I think it's not too hard to believe there might be other intelligent species out there, made of whatever material they might be, and whatever structure they are shaped from. Life has proven to be more stubborn than what we believe...
(phew, that was a long post, i hope it made some sense at all :nervous: )
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Just a bit confusing about the energy-beings thing
Hardly surprising considering that no one has properly corrected Trashman's basic incorrect assumption - that any creature living on a star has to be an energy being.
Everyone else is basically saying life forms that lived on a star could be made up of plasma and use magnetic and electrostatic fields as a basic part of their make-up. The term energy being is commonly used for any such creature in sci-fi but it's a bit of a misnomer as that implies that they are completely made up of energy.
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:wakka:
Stop it! You're killing me!
I only wish... :sigh:
regarding plasma-based beings whose parts are shaped by EM fields - interesting, but something has to generate such fields and keep their shape.
To make the long story short, given that this topic sparked my interest I have looked it up and I'm not convinced.
Unless you can produce one such being you won't convince me.
If that makes me a redneck, close-minded idiot in someone's eyes..we'll, I wouldn't give a damn. No, correction - I'd actually be proud.
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Yeah, something generates the fields and keeps their shape -- the plasma itself, as well as gravitational and nuclear-force interactions.
Karajorma's right: these beings living on the stars are, in part, matter, that being the plasma component. This is what the Starborn are.
There's no way you've actually looked it up and understood it without knowing some higher-order plasma physics. I know for a fact you don't understand that math, and goodness knows I don't.
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Neither do the "esablished scientists" (and I very much question how established they are).
I'm not going to believe anything a few scientists say just like that, like it's a friggin word of God.
They have been wrong many times, even the majority was wrong for a long time.
Okay let's calm down in that case...
Established scientists still know more than you about science, so I would take their word over yours. You might be right in this case, but if my life depended on it, then I'd surely go for the "established scientists" rather than you. Their word might not be the word of God, but yours certainly isn't either.
This is why I think it is possible, not certain that energy life forms could exist. I suck at science and physics myself which is why I try not to start shouting out assumptions about stuff I can't even begin to understand.
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Just FYI, for those who think my education sucks, and therefore my opinnions must also suck:
I always got straight A's in all scientific subjects - from chemistry to physics...and also in subjects like philosophy and logic.
I am lucky enough to have a absolutely GREAT Physics teacher* who happens to be one of the project leads at CERN, so he knows a lot of established scientiest (hands-on experts, that actualyl do work in labs, not just theorize the whole day) from around the world. He often invites experts from various fields to hold lectures - from nanotechnology, quantum computing, astrophysics, fluid analysis to god knows what not - and I attended any of those lecture I could, chatting away with those people.
I many not be Einstein, but my knowledge of scientific stuff that interests me is way above average.
So no, I didn't come to this conclusion lightly...
*What's a good way to see if someone is a good teacher? If oyu have every incentive NOT to come to his lectures, yet you still do.
This year, he held classes about quantum mechanics and didn't demand that any of us come to his lectures. Additionaly, his classes were on friday, early in the morning - and due to the schedule it was the only subject that day at all. I'm also a traveling student, which means I travel home during weekends.
So I don't have to come to his classes at all, I can go home one day earlier and get a good night sleep..insted I choose to sta , get up early and come to his classes and chat away with him suring breaks. He's that good a teacher. :D
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And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons? :lol:
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Look, TrashMan, none of us are saying that life on stars is inevitable. We're just saying it's physically possible.
Can you agree with that?
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And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?
In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.
Look, TrashMan, none of us are saying that life on stars is inevitable. We're just saying it's physically possible.
Can you agree with that?
ERm...no. I consider it impossible.
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And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?
In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.
:wakka:
Funny how you've suddenly slipped in the photon as if you were talking about it the whole time.
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Yeah. Also, you're wrong. An ion is an atom with one or more electrons stripped away by a dose of electromagnetic energy from a photon.
Electrons swapped between atoms make up electrical current.
The photons themselves are the only force-carrying particles in that list you've made up. They carry the electromagnetic force.
ERm...no. I consider it impossible.
*shrug* Well, you're wrong, and we've already explained why: plasma structures and electromagnetic life. I don't see any way to convince you without walking you through the math. But you're in the minority, and you go against well-established science that drives devices you use every day.
It's weird to see someone who's usually so rabidly in favor of technology suddenly begin denying a very realistic scientific possibility.
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And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?
In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.
:wakka:
Funny how you've suddenly slipped in the photon as if you were talking about it the whole time.
That's because he's employing the "retcon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon)" debating technique. With that said, I'm myself not a fan of energy based lifeforms in fiction. I especially despise the notion that Shivans are energy-based lifeforms. Unlike Trashman though, I won't attempt to argue that they're impossible. I'll stick to arguing that they're lame instead. Unless they're C'tan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%27tan), in which case they're awesome.
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Claiming that Shivans are energy based is just stupid as they obviously have very physical bodies. As for other energy beings I think it depends on how the idea is used. I've seen some absolutely awful uses of the concept in the past (like any one where they can invade and take over humans) but that doesn't mean the basic concept isn't a good one.
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*shrug* Well, you're wrong, and we've already explained why: plasma structures and electromagnetic life. I don't see any way to convince you without walking you through the math. But you're in the minority, and you go against well-established science that drives devices you use every day.
It's weird to see someone who's usually so rabidly in favor of technology suddenly begin denying a very realistic scientific possibility.
Untill you show me such a lifeform, I'm not.
:lol:...very realistic.. :lol:
I could get into a very long and detailed explanation as to why I don't believe it's possible but I won't.
Given that I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and that I could care less what you or Kaj, or X or Y believe, I don't need to
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Okay.
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Funny how you spend page upon page telling us that it's not possible, completely ****ing up over simple physics in the process, and then at the end when you have nowhere else to go say you aren't trying to convince us.
Next time you start one of these debates I'll ask you at the start if you're trying to convince us and then delete any further responses from you after the first one if you say you aren't. That way we won't waste our time dealing with responses that aren't meant to convince us and therefore are basically off-topic spam.
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In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.
Just... wow. Do I really need to explain to you what the difference between matter and energy is?
1) Electrons are not energy. They are subatomic particles (MATTER) with a negative electrical charge. Any energy attributed to them is in the form of their kinetic energy (motion) or potential energy, be that electrostatic, magnetic, gravitational, whatever.
2) Calling photons energy is fair, but I think it is stretching the definition quite a bit. I'd rather not be dragged down into a debate about why, so I'll just say "ok" and move on.
3) Ions are not energy for the same reasons electrons aren't. They are atoms with greater or fewer electrons than normal. Any energy attributed to them is in the form of their yada yada yada etc ad nauseum.
Energy, in the simplest possible terms, is the capacity to do work. Electrons and ions by themselves have no capacity to do work except via E = mc^2. Their capacity to do work comes from their relative motion and position within externally applied fields, electrical or otherwise.
As for "energy beings," Karajorma has already said that is largely a misnomer. What life requires is an energy gradient it can exploit. Everything else is just window dressing. Even carbon based life here on Earth exploits myriad gradients. Chemical is the most common, but thermal and electrical are exploited as well. The gradients inside a star are much steeper. I believe your argument is that there can be no cohesive structure inside a star. I disagree. It may not be solid, but there certainly is structure. The convection cells inside the sun are larger than our planet, but they are very much self-sustaining. For all we know, those cells could be older than our planet itself. In all that time, is it not possible that all that complex self- and externally-interacting electromagnetic flux could have become capable of the characteristics of life? Reproduction? You betcha. Homeostasis? Growth? Adaptation? Response to stimuli? None of these seem beyond the realm of plausibility to me.
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I was just equating photons with energy in the sense that they're a force-mediating particle.
You clearly know what you're talking about, though.
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Funny how you spend page upon page telling us that it's not possible, completely ****ing up over simple physics in the process, and then at the end when you have nowhere else to go say you aren't trying to convince us.
Next time you start one of these debates I'll ask you at the start if you're trying to convince us and then delete any further responses from you after the first one if you say you aren't. That way we won't waste our time dealing with responses that aren't meant to convince us and therefore are basically off-topic spam.
a) I haven't been ****ing anything.
b) I have elsewhere to go, I just don't want to go there
c) I'm not trying to convince you since I know it's practicely impossible for you to change your mind
d) So for you, the purpose of forum talks is nothing more than convincing the other guy that you are right? :wtf:
@perihelion:
I haven't been really specific, haven't I? What I mean was that on an atomic level, the biggest energy carrier are the electrons, photons and ions... Electrons is what goes trough the power lines, photons is what warms up the atmosphere.
But as you say yourself that energy is "the capacity to do work"... how can "the capacity to do work" be alive? It can't. It has to be made of some matter...and not any matter. Structured matter.
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You didn't mention photons until someone pointed them out to you. You're also betraying the fact that you don't know much physics, because on the atomic level the biggest energy carriers are particles that carry energy. The atomic strong and weak forces are far 'bigger' than electromagnetism, even if their range is shorter. Have you heard of them before? They are the principle behind the atomic bomb.
Anyway, listen: we've already established that the sun has structure, convection cells and currents and so on. Will you accept this fact? That's structure, self-maintained and reinforcing structure. In other words, structured matter.
Go reread perihelion's post. He explains everything there, and if you're not convinced by it, it's because you're not understanding it.
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No, I understand everything perfectly, thank you very much.
And I'm willing to bet my immortal soul I know physics better than you. :P (unfortunately, Satan is only interested in deals in which he can actually win the soul, so he didn't answer my calls)
The sun is chaotic. Any kind of memory must be stored somewhere, and must remain there. When you have particles that are thrown around by the massive forces and reaction of the sun, no two atoms are gonna stay next to eachother for long.
It's like putting your brain in a blender set on the highest speed and somehow hoping any coherent though is gonna remain in there.
Meh..enough of this.
*Scotty, one to beam up*
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Ooooh, them's fightin' words.
Problem is I can't ask you anything without you being able to look it up on Wikipedia. The fact that you failed to note anything about the strong and weak forces is kind of telling, though.
Eh, whatever. I try not to let myself get personal but I'm afraid I'm slipping. I'm happy to let this one go, especially since perihelion's post was wonderful. I'm glad I got to read that.
I'll just quote him!
What life requires is an energy gradient it can exploit. Everything else is just window dressing. Even carbon based life here on Earth exploits myriad gradients. Chemical is the most common, but thermal and electrical are exploited as well. The gradients inside a star are much steeper. I believe your argument is that there can be no cohesive structure inside a star. I disagree. It may not be solid, but there certainly is structure. The convection cells inside the sun are larger than our planet, but they are very much self-sustaining. For all we know, those cells could be older than our planet itself. In all that time, is it not possible that all that complex self- and externally-interacting electromagnetic flux could have become capable of the characteristics of life? Reproduction? You betcha. Homeostasis? Growth? Adaptation? Response to stimuli? None of these seem beyond the realm of plausibility to me.
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Personally, I'm not convinced that this isn't all just an act to see what kind of response he can get.
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Yep. And I'm pretty tired of it. Admittedly there is comedy value in listening to him trying to bluff his way through convincing us that he actually knows something about physics and then getting it all hideously wrong but it's really not worth it.
d) So for you, the purpose of forum talks is nothing more than convincing the other guy that you are right? :wtf:
The point of a debate is to convince that you are correct. This thread changed from a discussion to a debate the second you started insisting you were right and anyone who held a different opinion is wrong. You had the chance to leave the debate at that point and let it fizzle out.
However you stayed and argued your corner. And you're still doing it. And then after it all you claim you weren't trying to debate at all. If you weren't trying to convince us you are correct then every single post after your first one saying you hate energy beings was simply you restating your opinion.
Restating your opinion 12 times in one thread for no reason is spam.
But as you say yourself that energy is "the capacity to do work"... how can "the capacity to do work" be alive? It can't. It has to be made of some matter...and not any matter. Structured matter.
You aren't reading anyone else's posts (Every person you are debating against has told you that we are talking about beings made up of matter) and you yourself have said you aren't debating. So it appears as though you're simply waiting until someone posts and then posting the same unchanged opinion every time.
On top of that you have then repeatedly belittled the knowledge of other forumites who dared to tell you that you were wrong. Even though they weren't getting their physics wrong and you were.
That's called trolling. And that earns you a two day ban. (Oh and before you wonder I did consult with another admin who hasn't participated in this debate before doing this and he was in favour)
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What life requires is an energy gradient it can exploit. Everything else is just window dressing. Even carbon based life here on Earth exploits myriad gradients. Chemical is the most common, but thermal and electrical are exploited as well.
One of the more interesting alien races I've seen in sci-fi are the outsiders from Larry Niven's Known Space universe. They're basically liquid helium and get their gradient by having their body in sunlight and tails in shadow. Basically an example of a race mostly using thermal gradients for life.
I've always tended to feel it's rather silly to assume that what worked on Earth is the only possible way it can work anywhere else.
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National Geographic made an interesting site (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/extraterrestrial/index.html) about XTL. The species are all matter-based, but interesting nonetheless (especially for TMan ;)).
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I think I saw the second half of that show (Plus a couple of similar ones on the same subject).
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What life requires is an energy gradient it can exploit. Everything else is just window dressing. Even carbon based life here on Earth exploits myriad gradients. Chemical is the most common, but thermal and electrical are exploited as well.
One of the more interesting alien races I've seen in sci-fi are the outsiders from Larry Niven's Known Space universe. They're basically liquid helium and get their gradient by having their body in sunlight and tails in shadow. Basically an example of a race mostly using thermal gradients for life.
I've always tended to feel it's rather silly to assume that what worked on Earth is the only possible way it can work anywhere else.
Niven is an interesting writer, though not my favorite. Is it just the books I've read (several Ringworld novels, another one about returning to Earth in the very distant future after having your personality downloaded into a mind-wiped criminal and sent off to seed distant stars for life that I cannot for the life of me remember the name of right now), or do all of his novels involve tons of sex/actual orgies? Because all of the ones I've read have.
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Not all of them do but it is a reoccurring theme. You do seem to have read the ones that are worst for it though. :)
I would highly recommend reading Protector if you read nothing else.
Oh and the story you can't remember is called Rammer IIRC.
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An energy based star dwelling lifeforms is pretty interesting notion, though i would imagine depending on the level of sentience it could be a little boring.
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You're judging 'boring' by human standards. Those standards have been shaped by our environment.
The life of a medieval monk was probably pretty boring by our standards, but they seemed happy enough.
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True enough, i wasn't trying to be particularly serious. God only knows how many indigenous races were going along merrily with their lives until someone decided to "enlighten them and raise them to civilized standards" so your perspective certainly does affect your interpretation of what a "good" life is. I would imagine you could be quite content living on a star, personally i don't think it would float my boat.
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You're quite right there. I think it'd get a bit stale pretty quickly. Pretty, though.
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Well that basically explains why the Starborn enjoy playing The Great Game so much in MindGames then doesn't it? :D
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My capella theory: a few hundred light years away the rest of the Sathanas fleet were hanging out with the universe's biggest marshmellow.
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Not all of them do but it is a reoccurring theme. You do seem to have read the ones that are worst for it though. :)
I would highly recommend reading Protector if you read nothing else.
Oh and the story you can't remember is called Rammer IIRC.
I checked last night when I got home and it was A World Out of Time, though the protagonist is in fact a rammer, so you weren't off by all that much. I actually own that one somehow, I'm recalling getting a stack of old books from one of my relatives when I was a kid; I don't think they had actually read that book themselves or they most likely wouldn't have given it to me, heh.
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I checked. The short story Rammer was novelised into A World Out of Time. I've only ever read the short story version.
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I'm back...and let me say:
*clap, clap, calp*
Bravo! Why to go flexing those virtual muscles AFTER I stated that I won't discuss life on stars further and that I'm leaving the thread.
And for trolling of all things.
Sure, a guy posts a theory..people comment. I comment (stating I dislike the X part because I believe in Y) The you Kaj (and your tag-alongs) jump on my post like a starved mean on a 5-star dinner, dissecting it, analyizing it and marching on your holy quest to prove me wrong.
What does what I believe have to do with the topic? Not much. So why even go into it?
Partially it is my fault, I should have known better than to answer but I do get a bit defensive when people hop on me like that.
So why going into a lengthy discussion at all? I tried to be brief and I tried to end the discussion right there (It was off-topic anyway).. and I'm the Troll?
Ok, I can live with that..If you ban yourself and others, since you were trolling as much as I was, if not more.
But it's not the ban that bothers me really (I actually got some work on my paper done, given that I didn't sped hours on HLP..I should actually thank you for that).
What bothers me is your obsession to correct me.
So you think I'm ignorant, wrong or stupid..K, great, I'm happy for you if that makes you happy.
But why do you feel the need to try and "correct me" every other thread?
I'm asking you...no, I'm begging you - in the future, if you spot something in my comments you deem incorrect - leave me in my "ignorance". Let's not de-rail the whole thread and fall into a discussion loop (this goes for everyone).
Surely you have better things to spend your time on... at least I hope you do. ;)
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(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3961/babycryingtantrumthumbuu8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w45/l_mathiesen/attemptballs.jpg)
And with this I say farewell...
*walks away*
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And with this I say farewell...
*walks away*
What, you're leaving HLP?
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Bravo! Why to go flexing those virtual muscles AFTER I stated that I won't discuss life on stars further and that I'm leaving the thread.
Your attitude on this thread was the last in a long line of infractions. I did warn you about it earlier and I did point out that other admins were as sick as I was of you doing it.
Sure, a guy posts a theory..people comment. I comment (stating I dislike the X part because I believe in Y) The you Kaj (and your tag-alongs) jump on my post like a starved mean on a 5-star dinner, dissecting it, analyizing it and marching on your holy quest to prove me wrong.
You're entitled to have a different opinion all you want Trashman. But when you start saying "I'm right and you're wrong" or better yet, "I'm right and renowned experts in the field are wrong" you'd better be prepared to prove it.
What bothers me is your obsession to correct me.
Funny how Marcus Vesper, Snail, Mobius and all the people who also commented on this thread also seem to have the same obsession then. Even when I deliberately stayed out of some threads this week to see if you'd do the same with them I found exactly the same problem happening in my absence.
Maybe you should ask yourself what it is about the way you post that makes people want to correct you?
But why do you feel the need to try and "correct me" every other thread?
I'm asking you...no, I'm begging you - in the future, if you spot something in my comments you deem incorrect - leave me in my "ignorance". Let's not de-rail the whole thread and fall into a discussion loop (this goes for everyone).
Shall I point out that most of the times I've corrected you it's because someone else posted a theory and you came along and corrected them telling them that it was unlikely or impossible?
If someone else wants to post their theory and you want to comment on it fine. If you want to help them refine it again that's fine. If you're going to tell them that their theory is unlikely or impossible you'd better be prepared to defend that point of view. And if you're not, bow out gracefully.
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Your attitude on this thread was the last in a long line of infractions. I did warn you about it earlier and I did point out that other admins were as sick as I was of you doing it.
Attitude?
Methinks you're reading into things that aren't there.
You're entitled to have a different opinion all you want Trashman. But when you start saying "I'm right and you're wrong" or better yet, "I'm right and renowned experts in the field are wrong" you'd better be prepared to prove it.
I state that I THINK or I BELIEVE this or that. My personal opinion or belief on a matter doesn't instantly mean the other person is wrong.
Comments are meant to be short, I'm not about to turn a comment into a philospohical discussion. Defending a theory merits a separate thread, it's not something I want to do in other peoples threads.
Funny how Marcus Vesper, Snail, Mobius and all the people who also commented on this thread also seem to have the same obsession then. Even when I deliberately stayed out of some threads this week to see if you'd do the same with them I found exactly the same problem happening in my absence.
Maybe you should ask yourself what it is about the way you post that makes people want to correct you?
I mentioned the tag-alongs, haven't I?
What about my post makes certain people want to correct me? Probably a different opinion they don't like. Either that or the tone of my post isn't clear enough, so it left to intepretation so someone may find it insulting or something.
Speaking of which this is off-topic (again) and I already said I'm leaving this thread so..
ON-TOPIC:
The part of the Lucifer as a central hive mind. I'd say FS1 and FS2 strongly suggest they do have some very centralized command structure. They had a command ship in FS1. But where is it in FS2? Hidden maby? Or could the Comm Nodes have something to do with it?
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ON-TOPIC:
The part of the Lucifer as a central hive mind. I'd say FS1 and FS2 strongly suggest they do have some very centralized command structure. They had a command ship in FS1. But where is it in FS2? Hidden maby? Or could the Comm Nodes have something to do with it?
IMO, the FS2's command ship was probably just one of the Sathanas juggernauts since we don't see anything bigger... Or are not told of anything bigger... ;7
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Or they didn't have a on-site command...Maybe the SOC destruction of the comm nodes did mess up the shivan plans near the end.
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Or they didn't have a on-site command...Maybe the SOC destruction of the comm nodes did mess up the shivan plans near the end.
:yes2: That's a good one. It would explain why the Shivans didn't come after us. Detonating a star could be the Shivan way of locking an area, a pre-programmed order in case their command structure falls away...
I have read this theory somewhere not long ago, but I can't remember where. Only now I realize it's quite a good one...
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It explains why they were so heavily guarded.
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Personally, I don't think so. This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but Shivan behavior to me speaks of a highly decentralized command structure. They tend to act as one, and they don't function that well independently. You can make arguments for a central "queen of the hive" type command ship, but...
Okay, actually, this is just a pet peeve of mine. Remember the first few episodes involving the Borg in ST:TNG, they were so decentralized that they essentially had no vulnerabilities. There was no central command to take out. The only real exploitable vulnerability they had was their interconnectedness. Disrupt that, and then you cause problems, but other than that there was no leader, no hierarchy, no one member any more important than any of the others. The Borg as a race seemed to exist as a singular collective consciousness, it's individual bodies no more important than individual neurons in a human brain.
Then they went and screwed it all up by saying, "Oh yeah, but now there's this Borg Queen that's actually running it all." Was I the only person who thought that was totally lame and made them completely not frightening anymore? The writers went and freaking humanized the Borg. WTF??
Same thing with the Shivans. If they do rely so heavily on a central command structure, that is a very obvious vulnerability that makes them far less terrifying. With a completely decentralized enemy, it doesn't matter which ship you blow up. The "orders," so to speak, will just keep on coming in. The Sathanas is just another "big ship." A temporary tactical loss. The rest of the Shivans will not be cut off from their "command and control" unless you somehow manage to disrupt their communications themselves.
I'm not sure if there is enough (or indeed, any) evidence to substantiate this as a valid theory, but it feels more satisfying to me.
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I agree with you whole-heartedly. First Contact was a good movie but it ruined the Borg completely by destroying the one thing that made them so truly terrifying in the earlier episodes we saw them in.
As for the Shivans, it's a canon fact that they were less organised after the destruction of the Lucifer but if you want another explanation other than a Shivan C&C on board how about simply saying that the Lucifer was the equivalent of a Shivan Comm Node and it provided the link between the thousands of Shivans attacking the GTVA and the billions or more back in Shivan space. With the link gone the processing power of those left in GTVA space was diminished and so they weren't able to organise as well as before.
If that's the case then most likely the Shivans learnt their lesson from that before FS2 and there isn't any central node to take out now.
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IMO the Shivans might have backup hives to stop them from losing organization if one hive is destroyed. So it's sort of like a feudal system.
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What bothers me is your obsession to correct me.
Funny how Marcus Vesper, Snail, Mobius and all the people who also commented on this thread also seem to have the same obsession then. Even when I deliberately stayed out of some threads this week to see if you'd do the same with them I found exactly the same problem happening in my absence.
Maybe you should ask yourself what it is about the way you post that makes people want to correct you?
I can't help myself: It's the spelling. See, you're at the magic point between perfection and utter-anarchy-that-makes-your-eyes-bleed where you just know the poster is capable of better then they're actually doing, so it nags at you when obvious mistakes in otherwise correctly spelled paragraphs crop up. Well perhaps not you, I'm mildly obsessive compulsive and I've been known to spend more time correcting habitual and deliberate typos (on forums where I have moderator powers) then I do actually reading or posting (I've found that keeping myself colossally busy helps to keep that urge in check).
I literally can't check certain subforums on these boards because if I started, I'd have to keep checking them and reading every new post just to make the "New Post" indicators go away whether I'm remotely interested in the discussion or not, and I really don't have that kind of time......and I think you can see why my hands start twitching and I instinctively look for an edit button before settling with just arguing with you for catharsis.
I will go back and edit things I've typed over a year ago if I notice there was a mistake (and I have). I properly punctuate and capitalize brief messages typed in the heat of battle during multiplayer games. I think stickling is an Olympic sport. And boy oh boy do I love to argue. Trashman happends to have opinions I completely disagree with often enough to provide me with plenty of argument fodder.
And back on topic, I'm wondering why so called "Comm Nodes" are classified level omega, when horrendously powerful juggernauts only warrant upsilon level clearance. They certainly had a rather large explosion radius, but the level of defense (practically non-existent, Shivans guarded gas mining operations more then those things) just strikes me as weird for something worthy of top secret classification.
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Well it's possible that they didn't guard them because they didn't expect the GTVA would be able to send anything through the Knossos that would survive long enough to destroy them.
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Even after they knew of the Colossus? I'd say shivans are severely underestimating their enemy.
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The GTVA were already in full retreat at that point. It seems pretty unlikely they'd retreat everything else but move the Colossus into the 2nd Knossos.
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speaking of the com nodes, now might be a fun time to point out that they are the only object other than the knossos it'self, to have the "knossos" ship flag. which means as far as the game engine was concerned, they are little more than knossos devices.
as to whether or not this has any impact on cannon or not I can't say, but it does show that V might have had more plans for those things.
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Personally I find it unlikely that they are graviton disruption devices or life support systems. The term "comm node" in itself is rather descriptive already.
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I agree with Snail.
Oh yea if you go close enough to one you can hear Shivan communications.
Or at least in retail FS2
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I think it's the engine sound of the ship that makes the comm node sound.
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But try it some time, that is not the usual Shivan sound, that sounds like the communications you here from the cruiser that talks to Bosch in one of the Nebula missions.
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I've checked; the Comm Node sound is the engine sound, so it will work in FreeSpace open too. Given that it's also the ETAK sound, it more or less confirms that the Comm Node is just that, a Comm Node.
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Yes, it is not anything else than a comm node or a fighter AI deathtrap. :P
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If you liked Snail's Theory, then you'll love his Shivan Comm Node non-canon unofficial tech description!
All details concerning this object have been classified level Omega, accessible only by those immediately authorized by the GTVA Security Council.
These enigmatic static emplacements are essentially extremely powerful subspace communication arrays. It is theorized that these communication terminals, or Shivan Communication Nodes, as they have been named, are designed with the purpose of communicating with specific points over intergalactic distances. However, the amount of energy needed to do so is immense, and hence upon its destruction considerable amounts of energy are released. The spinning blades and shell form a highly directional subspace field through which quantum pulses are exchanged. It is theorized that the objective vortex can also be used as the inceptive vortex, through which subsequential quantum pulses can be relayed. This creates a form of two-way communication between vast distances. The technological implications of such a device pose numerous significant questions. Could the same technology be used to communicate with Earth? Or more urgently, could a similar principle be applied by the Shivans to create jump nodes which are traversable by ships of significant size? Though these questions will not soon be answered, the enigma of this device yet more emphasizes what little we know about the race we call the Shivans.
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You forgot about the part that if a fighter gets caught in its blades its dead automatically.
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Unless it's Alpha 1! :D