Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 20, 2008, 12:29:36 am
-
Everyone agrees, the Shivans have way more advanced ships than we do. It's like comparing WW2 battleships to today's.
However, Shivan tactics are very simple. They just lob ships at us. You'd expect something better from a species with that kind of ships.
Could that be because:
a - Shivan vessels are manned by rookies, perhaps even (partly) by robots, who just don't understand anything about advanced tactics?
b - Their vessels are made by another species, the Shivans just operate them?
c - Up to you...
-
D- The smart ones that designed the ships died off because they did not have enough children, and left only the idiot ones alive
-
a - Shivan vessels are manned by rookies, perhaps even (partly) by droids, who just don't understand anything about advanced tactics?
Take back the droid part. Again, in Hall Fight we see creatures inside a Shivan freighter, and :v: has explicitly stated that those creatures are actual Shivans. Conclusion: if the Shivans like flying around in transports, surely they'd fly any other ships as well.
-
Or maybe :v: skimped on the AI...I mean, the AI engine isnt the best
-
I'm not just talking about the AI, I'm talking about Shivan tactics as a whole. Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC. They just throw ships at us.
I won't take back the robot part. I KNOW we saw actual Shivans in that transport. The transport could even have been transporting Shivans. But that doesn't mean their warships can't be manned at least partially by robots. Remember, I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying they could be. It could explain why they didn't seem to bother about the ships which remained behind in Capella, for example.
@Leader: Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?
-
I won't take back the droid part. I KNOW we saw actual Shivans in that transport. The transport could even have been transporting Shivans. But that doesn't mean their warships can't be manned at least partially by droids.
At least take back the word 'droids'. Droids are so... Star Wars.
Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?
Concidering that the Shivans just keep throwing ships at their enemies, I don't think they're really interested in maintenance.
-
:rolleyes: Allright, allright... I'll make it 'robots'. Just a minute...
-
I'm not just talking about the AI, I'm talking about Shivan tactics as a whole. Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC. They just throw ships at us.
They have multiple times in FS1. Fleet tactics in FS1 were very different from those in FS2.
-
Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver?
RAVANA and SATHANAS INTRODUCTION MISSIONS !!! The Taranis incident! And do not forget the Lucy's backdoor trick into Vasuda Prime! Or the attack through the first Knossos!
EDIT: huh ;) posted an answer to that at the same time...
-
:rolleyes: Allright, allright... I'll make it 'robots'. Just a minute...
Thank you. Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas, which is why at least I wouldn't want it to be mixed up with FreeSpace.
Now, on these theories. The way I think about this is that the Shivans are more or less capable to make advanced strategies and maneuvers and such, like the Taranis incident and, to some extent, the cargo depot raid where the GTA tried to acquire intelligence regarding Shivan shields. But, the Shivans rarely use such tactics, since most of the time their 'Throw ships at the enemy so much that it dies' strategy works, what with the numerous ships and shields and weapons. I'd assume that even the Ancients were exterminated just by attacking them without thinking too much about plans and the likes.
-
In FS1 they did that, but not to the same extent of FS2.
-
I wouldn't say the Shivan don't use any tactics at all. They have used ambush tactics before. On Pandora's Box on FS1, they ambush your wing when it was attempting to scan cargo containers. (Does anyone else think it's kinda weird that they would sacrifice dozens of cargo containers for a few fighters? Or how did Command retrieve the sensor arrays when there was a Cain class cruiser patrolling the area?) I would say the Shivan use alot of tactics, but the reason why most people believe Shivans don't use tactics is because of the endless waves of fighters, bombers, cruisers.... hell, they have alot of everything.
-
They're not just rabid killing machines, the Shivans DO think.
-
Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver?
RAVANA and SATHANAS INTRODUCTION MISSIONS !!! The Taranis incident! And do not forget the Lucy's backdoor trick into Vasuda Prime! Or the attack through the first Knossos!
EDIT: huh ;) posted an answer to that at the same time...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GTVA planed that mission to lure the Ravana?
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GTVA planed that mission to lure the Ravana?
Depends on how you think about it. The GTVA did deduce that a Shivan destroyer was present in the nebula, but whether they deployed the corvettes to lure the Ravana out or just engage the two nuisance cruisers wasn't made that clear.
-
Command isn't entirely that bright either, you know.
-
But it was reasonable to expect Shivans to respond to two corvettes dishing out hell.
If you think what forces the GTVA had encountered at that point, it looked like they were dealing with just a destroyer and it's support vessels. Thus GTVA Command, though stupid, propably expected the generally aggressive Shivans to respond to GTVA's offensive (the corvettes) with considerable force. It that situation it propably looked likely the Shivans would commit their destroyer if they wanted to hold control of the nebula. This happened.
It was a good plan. And a logical thing to do in that situation. It did lure the destroyer out, and had it been a Demon GTVA would have probably handled it business as usual. But apparently they underestimated the offensive firepower of the Ravana.
-
Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC.
for the benefit of those who have not played FS1 I will attempt to recount the events of a particular FS1 mission.
you see in the earliest part of the great war GTA and PVN sensors were unable to even lock onto Shivan electronic systems, fighter craft were unable to target them. so a mission was drafted to capture some shivan stuff for experimentation purposes. a cargo depo was found and you were to lead a scan/capture mission. once in system there was nothing you just flew up to the cargo, but as soon as you got any ware near it, all the cargo containers detonated and fifty bajilion Shivan fighters and a Cain class cruiser (which at that point in the game was some pretty big ****) all jumped in and splashed your wing. it was an ambush.
in the next mission you were to capture the very same cruiser, a funny thing about that mission, after you disable the cruiser and start the capturing procedure, the fighters would always jump in about 2-3km away and about 30 seconds before the bombers, which jumped in real close. the fighters were trying to draw you away from the cruiser so the bombers could destroy it (so you couldn't capure it). but in actuality it was all a big ruse, they actually WANTED us to capture it, because while in route it made a transmission and we basically brought a Lucifer somoning beacon to the front door of one of our big research facilities.
see FS1 was full of this ****. FS2 not so much, was one of my biggest disappointments with FS2, and why I considered FS1 to be better put together, but less polished.
-
I did like the atmosphere of FS1 far more than the atmosphere of FS2.
There is also Hammer and the Anvil, where the Shivans only commit a small force to attack the convoy at first, but when they realize that they're carrying the shield prototypes they summon a much larger attack force of Basilisks to destroy it.
There's Shell Game, too, where the Shivans set traps for the Terran freighters by rigging cargo containers to explode when they are docked with.
Then in the Chasing the Ancients act, the Lucifer itself arrives to destroy an errant transport and a single science cruiser to stop you from getting the Ancient codes. Doesn't sound like indiscriminate killing to me.
-
The Shivans are an alien race. They are not human so just because we don't understand their tactics doesn't mean they don't use tactics.
-
I must admit, I've never played FS1. I can't get FSOpen to work on my computer, so no FSPort for me either. I have played FS2, and I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way. IMO, the introductory mission of the Sathanas was not a trap they set. I think they were just desperate and had nothing else in the nebula which could destroy a Sobek fast enough.
Anyway, I've been thinking about this:
The Shivans are a joint project of several other species (like the Eurofighter Typhoon). They build the Shivans, supplie them and maintain them as a sort of droid robot army. The Asmodeus (green) and the Mephisto (purple) would be supply ships of these 'others', since they don't look very Shivan (red).
-
I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way.
You know that a trap is successful if two of your capital ships get destroyed and others get severely damaged.
IMO, the introductory mission of the Sathanas was not a trap they set. I think they were just desperate and had nothing else in the nebula which could destroy a Sobek fast enough.
I too don't think that it was a trap. But rather that the Sath was just on it's way to Capella, when it noticed these ships that were bullying an innocent gas mining operation. So it diverted for a while to teach a lesson.
-
I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way.
You know that a trap is successful if two of your capital ships get destroyed and others get severely damaged.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean with this... Yes, the GTVA lost a corvette, which is a short-term numeric disadvantage. BUT it allowed us to locate the Shivan base of operations in the nebula, and subsequently destroy it. That's a mid-term strategic advantage. After that, we even had access to Shivan rear-line gas mining operations. If the Sath hadn't come in, we could even have driven the Shivans back (we rule, no one did that before :D), and the loss of the Lysander would have been an acceptable sacrifice.
-
Locating the destroyer serving as a base of operations was indeed a good thing. I shan't argue that. But aren't we forgetting something? In addition to the Lysander, the GTD Delacroix was destroyed and the other warships in its attack group were damaged (said in the following mission briefing). So, the plan worked on the part that they wanted to locate the Ravana. But it failed in the part that the Ravana kicked some serious ass before going down.
-
IMO, the gas mining operation was extremely important to the Shivans for some reason, perhaps they needed the nebular gas for the Comm Nodes or something, so they sortied the largest thing in the nebula to save it.
-
In that case you'd think that they would have responded faster. Like, sending a cruiser or a corvette to cause mayhem, since the Sath arrived a bit late to actually make any difference.
-
Or maybe the Sathanas was going there to refuel there anyway but it found out about the attack, so instead of going to the actual mining base it went to vaporize the Sobek (a few clicks away).
-
Hmm. Maybe. Although then I'd assume that Command would have wanted to deal with the actual base as well. Or then again, maybe not. The base wouldn't have been doing much without the gas miners.
-
Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas
Not completely. He probably abbreviated "android".
I can't get FSOpen to work on my computer, so no FSPort for me either.
The Port does not require FSOpen.
-
Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas
Not completely. He probably abbreviated "android".
Don't know how much credibility I have around here, but let's give it a shot: Yeah, I meant that. Though my choice of words was obviously misleading. Surely Lucas didn't come up with the word out of the blue, but it still is a Star Wars word, not something you'd want to have in a dictionary.
-
Fair enough. :)
-
@Leader: Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?
Well before the smart ones all died off they designed the ships to do a majority of the maintaining automatically, with minimal command input from the idiots that ran them. This is part of what allowed the idiots to live so long and have such a large fleet even after the smart ones died off.
-
Both sets of Shivans that were faced in Freespace were, as far as we know, not fighting anyone else for thousands and thousands of years. Under those circumstances, they would've had only training and drills to prepare them for combat, and even the people doing the training would not have ever been in a real combat situation. Given that we've seen no real evidence of crime or culture with the Shivans, it's entirely possible that the Shivans faced in both FS1 and FS2 had never been in any situation more dangerous than a possible collision with an asteroid.
Granted they may have lifespans that long, so the Shivans that the GTA and PVN faced may have been the ones that faced the Ancients.
It's also possible that even though the Shivans did have an awesome military might with the Sathanas fleet, they were intended only as last ditch defense, and the Shivans faced in FS2 were the equivalent to reserve forces, and were basically only trained in the minimum required to defend space. If the Lucifer fleet had gone around annihilating civilizations every time they discovered subspace, there would be no reason to stock up on anything else. It would be adequate, because the Lucifer fleet would always have an unfair advantage.
Until, of course, the Terran and Vasudan forces cheated and not only used their own technology against them, but also used the Ancients' tech as well. :p
In a non-canon sense, I think the point was (if the game were not rushed and it was unintentional) to show that the Shivans don't care about Terrans and Vasudans; they can afford to send fighters and what-have-you at Terrans. Also, the game quickly degenerated into a slugging match; every time one side deployed 'overwhelming force', the other side responded as such, right up until the Colossus destroyed the Sathanas. Additionally, the GTVA was not trying to capture cargo nor where the Shivans trying to maneuver through GTVA systems.
As a result, many of the tactics that the Shivans used in FS1 simply weren't relevant; conflicts were ended far before any kind of advanced maneuvering could be used.
And altogether it makes the Shivans more alien. If they were always clever and cunning they would at least be consistent.
-
Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it. The Terrans and Vasudans also were spread thin from their little war and Shivans completely catching them with their pants down. Both sides had to be more creative in their strategies.
In FS2 Shivans likely had the capacity to bring huge amounts of forces to the conflict. The GTVA also was very confident of their chances until the late stages of the war. Thus both sides saw "brunt force" tactics as sufficient. Especially the Shivans did. And they were right.
-
Could be. The Lucifer fleet would have been the standard fleet unit for maybe 8000 years, and we destroyed it. The species who created the Shivans, would be scared to death and started an emergency plan. Over 80 juggernauts were to be built, and then the necessary support (destroyers, cruisers...) would be built. Yes, I know it's difficult to build 80 juggernauts in 32 years, but it is possible if you control a hundred of systems, a thousand of supply ships and -say- millions of workmen. However, Bosh lured them here too soon, so only the Saths were kinda finished. That would explain the huge number of Saths (~20) for every destroyer.
These ships had to be manned by rookies, since the more experienced Shivans got killed in the Great War, or were fighting elsewhere...
:waits for someone to punch a few hole in this:
Oh Goober, how do you run FSPort in the (downloaded) retail FS2 then?
-
I like to believe that the shivans have been fredded into existence.
-
Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it.
There's no canon evidence to support this. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it's unsupported. There were multiple points of Shivan entry into T-V space, and it's entirely possible they could have brought more ships in.
:waits for someone to punch a few hole in this:
It's highly unlikely the Shivans are "scared" of anything. Unless it's the Starborn or something that :v: never got around to introducing.
Oh Goober, how do you run FSPort in the (downloaded) retail FS2 then?
Same way you run it in FSO, except without using the -mod option.
-
:waits for someone to punch a few holes in this:
It's highly unlikely the Shivans are "scared" of anything. Unless it's the Starborn or something that :v: never got around to introducing.
Ah, but I never said that the Shivans were afraid. Perhaps they're robots, immune to fear. At least, that's what I would do if I created a huge war machine, designed to kill other species. I wouldn't let them be sensitive to fear.
No, what I was saying is that the species who created the Shivans would be scared to death, because someone succeeded in destroying a significant part of their... army. (Look at one of my previous posts here, I said something about the Shivans being created, maintained and supplied by two other species.)
-
Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it.
and the Eva..and the Tantalus..and god knows how many ships that weren't mentioned.
Same goes for the shivies in FS2. You say 20 Juggs for every destroyer. Where do you get that number? If you mean every shivan destroyer we heard about than that would be correct. But it's foolish to think there were'n' more, only you haven't been informed by command since it wasn't relevant.
-
You say 20 Juggs for every destroyer. Where do you get that number? If you mean every shivan destroyer we heard about than that would be correct. But it's foolish to think there were'n' more, only you haven't been informed by command since it wasn't relevant.
In Into the Lion's Den, you get overrun by the SD Nebiros, coming in (retreating?) from the Nebula. Later on, in Dunkerque, the fighters and bombers attacking HQ are launched from the same destroyer, which has now advanced to Capella. It must have had a pretty busy time schedule, right? :nod: That indicates that the Shivans didn't have very much destroyers around at the time, IMHO.
EDIT: @Goober: So how do you run FSPort then? I'm not quite good with computers, you know...
-
Given that the Shivans were messing around with the sun and didn't really care what the GTVA was destroying, the rest of the fleet could have been the bare minimum to keep the GTVA tied up with the Saths worked on the sun.
Whether they planned on having it blow up or not doesn't really matter.