[FreeSpaceFreak]

I must admit, I've never played FS1. I can't get FSOpen to work on my computer, so no FSPort for me either. I have played FS2, and I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way. IMO, the introductory mission of the Sathanas was not a trap they set. I think they were just desperate and had nothing else in the nebula which could destroy a Sobek fast enough.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this:

The Shivans are a joint project of several other species (like the Eurofighter Typhoon). They build the Shivans, supplie them and maintain them as a sort of droid robot army. The Asmodeus (green) and the Mephisto (purple) would be supply ships of these 'others', since they don't look very Shivan (red).

[Jeff Vader]

I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way.

You know that a trap is successful if two of your capital ships get destroyed and others get severely damaged.

IMO, the introductory mission of the Sathanas was not a trap they set. I think they were just desperate and had nothing else in the nebula which could destroy a Sobek fast enough.

I too don't think that it was a trap. But rather that the Sath was just on it's way to Capella, when it noticed these ships that were bullying an innocent gas mining operation. So it diverted for a while to teach a lesson.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

I do think the GTVA lured the Ravana into a trap. Not the other way.

You know that a trap is successful if two of your capital ships get destroyed and others get severely damaged.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with this... Yes, the GTVA lost a corvette, which is a short-term numeric disadvantage. BUT it allowed us to locate the Shivan base of operations in the nebula, and subsequently destroy it. That's a mid-term strategic advantage. After that, we even had access to Shivan rear-line gas mining operations. If the Sath hadn't come in, we could even have driven the Shivans back (we rule, no one did that before ), and the loss of the Lysander would have been an acceptable sacrifice.

[Jeff Vader]

Locating the destroyer serving as a base of operations was indeed a good thing. I shan't argue that. But aren't we forgetting something? In addition to the Lysander, the GTD Delacroix was destroyed and the other warships in its attack group were damaged (said in the following mission briefing). So, the plan worked on the part that they wanted to locate the Ravana. But it failed in the part that the Ravana kicked some serious ass before going down.

[Snail]

IMO, the gas mining operation was extremely important to the Shivans for some reason, perhaps they needed the nebular gas for the Comm Nodes or something, so they sortied the largest thing in the nebula to save it.

[Jeff Vader]

In that case you'd think that they would have responded faster. Like, sending a cruiser or a corvette to cause mayhem, since the Sath arrived a bit late to actually make any difference.

[Snail]

Or maybe the Sathanas was going there to refuel there anyway but it found out about the attack, so instead of going to the actual mining base it went to vaporize the Sobek (a few clicks away).

[Jeff Vader]

Hmm. Maybe. Although then I'd assume that Command would have wanted to deal with the actual base as well. Or then again, maybe not. The base wouldn't have been doing much without the gas miners.

[Goober5000]

Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas

Not completely.  He probably abbreviated "android".

I can't get FSOpen to work on my computer, so no FSPort for me either.

The Port does not require FSOpen.

[Jeff Vader]

Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas

Not completely.  He probably abbreviated "android".

Don't know how much credibility I have around here, but let's give it a shot: Yeah, I meant that. Though my choice of words was obviously misleading. Surely Lucas didn't come up with the word out of the blue, but it still is a Star Wars word, not something you'd want to have in a dictionary.

[Goober5000]

Fair enough.

[Fearless Leader]

@Leader: Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?

Well before the smart ones all died off they designed the ships to do a majority of the maintaining automatically, with minimal command input from the idiots that ran them. This is part of what allowed the idiots to live so long and have such a large fleet even after the smart ones died off.

[WMCoolmon]

Both sets of Shivans that were faced in Freespace were, as far as we know, not fighting anyone else for thousands and thousands of years. Under those circumstances, they would've had only training and drills to prepare them for combat, and even the people doing the training would not have ever been in a real combat situation. Given that we've seen no real evidence of crime or culture with the Shivans, it's entirely possible that the Shivans faced in both FS1 and FS2 had never been in any situation more dangerous than a possible collision with an asteroid.

Granted they may have lifespans that long, so the Shivans that the GTA and PVN faced may have been the ones that faced the Ancients.

It's also possible that even though the Shivans did have an awesome military might with the Sathanas fleet, they were intended only as last ditch defense, and the Shivans faced in FS2 were the equivalent to reserve forces, and were basically only trained in the minimum required to defend space. If the Lucifer fleet had gone around annihilating civilizations every time they discovered subspace, there would be no reason to stock up on anything else. It would be adequate, because the Lucifer fleet would always have an unfair advantage.

Until, of course, the Terran and Vasudan forces cheated and not only used their own technology against them, but also used the Ancients' tech as well.

In a non-canon sense, I think the point was (if the game were not rushed and it was unintentional) to show that the Shivans don't care about Terrans and Vasudans; they can afford to send fighters and what-have-you at Terrans. Also, the game quickly degenerated into a slugging match; every time one side deployed 'overwhelming force', the other side responded as such, right up until the Colossus destroyed the Sathanas. Additionally, the GTVA was not trying to capture cargo nor where the Shivans trying to maneuver through GTVA systems.

As a result, many of the tactics that the Shivans used in FS1 simply weren't relevant; conflicts were ended far before any kind of advanced maneuvering could be used.

And altogether it makes the Shivans more alien. If they were always clever and cunning they would at least be consistent.

[Prophet]

Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it. The Terrans and Vasudans also were spread thin from their little war and Shivans completely catching them with their pants down. Both sides had to be more creative in their strategies.

In FS2 Shivans likely had the capacity to bring huge amounts of forces to the conflict. The GTVA also was very confident of their chances until the late stages of the war. Thus both sides saw "brunt force" tactics as sufficient. Especially the Shivans did. And they were right.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Could be. The Lucifer fleet would have been the standard fleet unit for maybe 8000 years, and we destroyed it. The species who created the Shivans, would be scared to death and started an emergency plan. Over 80 juggernauts were to be built, and then the necessary support (destroyers, cruisers...) would be built. Yes, I know it's difficult to build 80 juggernauts in 32 years, but it is possible if you control a hundred of systems, a thousand of supply ships and -say- millions of workmen. However, Bosh lured them here too soon, so only the Saths were kinda finished. That would explain the huge number of Saths (~20) for every destroyer.
These ships had to be manned by rookies, since the more experienced Shivans got killed in the Great War, or were fighting elsewhere...

:waits for someone to punch a few hole in this:

Oh Goober, how do you run FSPort in the (downloaded) retail FS2 then?

[S-99]

I like to believe that the shivans have been fredded into existence.

[Goober5000]

Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it.

There's no canon evidence to support this.  Doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it's unsupported.  There were multiple points of Shivan entry into T-V space, and it's entirely possible they could have brought more ships in.

:waits for someone to punch a few hole in this:

It's highly unlikely the Shivans are "scared" of anything.  Unless it's the Starborn or something that never got around to introducing.

Oh Goober, how do you run FSPort in the (downloaded) retail FS2 then?

Same way you run it in FSO, except without using the -mod option.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

:waits for someone to punch a few holes in this:

It's highly unlikely the Shivans are "scared" of anything.  Unless it's the Starborn or something that never got around to introducing.

Ah, but I never said that the Shivans were afraid. Perhaps they're robots, immune to fear. At least, that's what I would do if I created a huge war machine, designed to kill other species. I wouldn't let them be sensitive to fear.
No, what I was saying is that the species who created the Shivans would be scared to death, because someone succeeded in destroying a significant part of their... army. (Look at one of my previous posts here, I said something about the Shivans being created, maintained and supplied by two other species.)

[TrashMan]

Also in FS1 the Shivans fought with limited fleet assets. They had the Lucifer fleet, and that's it.

and the Eva..and the Tantalus..and god knows how many ships that weren't mentioned.

Same goes for the shivies in FS2. You say 20 Juggs for every destroyer. Where do you get that number? If you mean every shivan destroyer we heard about than that would be correct. But it's foolish to think there were'n' more, only you haven't been informed by command since it wasn't relevant.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

You say 20 Juggs for every destroyer. Where do you get that number? If you mean every shivan destroyer we heard about than that would be correct. But it's foolish to think there were'n' more, only you haven't been informed by command since it wasn't relevant.

In Into the Lion's Den, you get overrun by the SD Nebiros, coming in (retreating?) from the Nebula. Later on, in Dunkerque, the fighters and bombers attacking HQ are launched from the same destroyer, which has now advanced to Capella. It must have had a pretty busy time schedule, right? That indicates that the Shivans didn't have very much destroyers around at the time, IMHO.

EDIT: @Goober: So how do you run FSPort then? I'm not quite good with computers, you know...