Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: blackhole on May 19, 2008, 01:37:49 am
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I am getting frustrated.
I just managed to pry myself away from an argument with a guy who accused me of being a scientific idiot because I didnt think that evolution was the only steering force behind life on earth, and attepted to compare me to some rapists from 400 years ago... - A friend on MSN
Tolerance. There isn't enough of it.
I don't know what you believe. And you know what? As long as you aren't knocking on doors to tell people how stupid they are, calling them furfags, ****ting on authority because you feel like it, or otherwise being a blatently disruptive influence on society, I don't care.
I don't care what you do. I don't care who you are. I don't care how old you are, what gender you are, what country you hail from, or if you like playing golf. I don't care what your musical taste's are (however much I may dissapprove of them), what kind of games you like, how much time you spend on the computer, how much you hate rabbits, or if you like to pet kittens.
I don't care if your into vore, look at porn all day, or do fursuit sex. I don't care if you think communism is a good idea, or if you think Bush isn't an idiot (however improbable that may be). I don't care if your christian, islamic, muslim, or jewish. Why?
I have met a fair number of interesting people the 17 years I've been on this planet. Some of them have been normal - most have not. For every person that wants to kill you because they don't like your religion, there is a guy who likes rap music and can make the best synth sounds and effects I've ever heard. For every self-rightious butthole who gets in your face about how religion is the root of all evil, there is a brilliant mathematician who likes looking at furry porn.
For every innocent victim of prejudice, there is a kind soul who is really a sociopathic monster attempting to tear your life into shreds.
I am sick of people disrespecting others because they are weird. I am sick of people disregarding other opinions because of what they believe in. I'm sick of all this damn intolerance. People are not stupid because they hold religious beliefs. People are not freaks of nature because they're furries. People can sometimes be suicidle and not also be totally stupid idiots. Gays are not trying to steal marriage away from everyone else or desacrate its sanctity.
Sometimes I laugh at the absurd arguments that go on. People arguing about stupid things like, say, personal messages and avatars. Global warming and space travel. AI. Gay people and gay marraige. Attacking someone relentlessly because they don't happen to agree with your views on religion.
This is all completely stupid. The real assholes aren't ones that blab a lot, the real assholes are ones that creep into your circle of friends, earn your trust, and then tear you and all your teammates to emotional shreds, leaving a gaping hole where there once was hope. The real assholes are ones that walk up to a kid in elementary school and tear their picture in half for no reason. The real assholes are the ones that haven't matured past the 5th grade level and hound you, server after server, making your life as miserable as possible while taunting you endlessly in a game where they cannot be punished for it. Hate them, not innocent people who are weird.
Dekker probably has a damn good reason for posting drunk all the time.
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i hate all life forms, but i still tolerate you all :D
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That's how the world works. For every up, there is a down. This must be why someone at the Hamumu Forums stated that the total IQ of the world is a constant, and that, for every person born into this planet, every one gets a little dumber.
We are quarrelsome as a species. If we weren't quarrelsome, we won't have any world wars. It'll probably stay that way until [insert higher power here] decides to purge the planet. That, at least, is my take on it.
Ironically, conflict is the stuff that all good stories are made of. If there's no conflict (which may arise from a lack of tolerance), there is no story.
...and, mind you, I've met many people in Grade 6 to 10 who haven't aged at all. :rolleyes:
...uhh, Nuke, I don't think your signature should be taken as a solution to this problem (actually, it's feasible, but it's too scary a solution). :nervous:
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While I understand and agree with your sentiments, I think there's naught to be done about it. In other words: BAWWWWW!
:blah:
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That's how the world works. For every up, there is a down. This must be why someone at the Hamumu Forums stated that the total IQ of the world is a constant, and that, for every person born into this planet, every one gets a little dumber.
We are quarrelsome as a species. If we weren't quarrelsome, we won't have any world wars. It'll probably stay that way until Nuke decides to purge the planet. That, at least, is my take on it.
Ironically, conflict is the stuff that all good stories are made of. If there's no conflict (which may arise from a lack of tolerance), there is no story.
...and, mind you, I've met many people in Grade 6 to 10 who haven't aged at all. :rolleyes:
...uhh, Nuke, I don't think your signature should be taken as a solution to this problem (actually, it's feasible, but it's too scary a solution). :nervous:
Fixed!
isnt that a quote from a school shooter upper, i cant remember. anti cosmic misanthropy is a pretty damn good solution i think. im gonna thump the second law of thermodynamics here and say that fading out is our destiny.
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BAWWWWWWWWWW
cry moar
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BAWWWWWWWWWW
cry moar
(http://zwerchserver.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/hase_rayman.jpg)
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That's the reason I like the Shivans so much. They tolerate each other, but not other aliens.
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In my opinion, tolerance comes from realising that being normal is for other people.
Just accept and move on, that's my philosophy.
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i hate all life forms, but i still tolerate you all :D
You're a life form too you know.
Unless you have something to tell us, nuke :nervous:
No, but seriously. People just have a natural tendency to be intolerant of people different than themselves. In a survival of the fittest world, promoting yourself over others will get you places in life. People will act that way unless taught differently. Though the people on this forum don't really seem like the kind of people who need teaching.
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I could not agree more with blackhole... and redsniper :sigh:
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It's impossible to be fully tolerant of everyone.
You can try.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8841340504849794258
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Humans were never tolerant, and never will be. None of the people I know are even trying to be tolerant. Heck, even I myself am intolerant, though I tried to be as tolerant as I can be.
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blackhole missed the ultimate irony by missing out that he's not tolerant of people who are not tolerant. Therefore logic dictates he's not tolerant to himself which in turn means he's making this thread because he's pissed off at himself.
I expect a red blur next time I use Goggle Earth somewhere in his vicinity after he comes to the conclusion he's inside a paradox.
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blackhole missed the ultimate irony by missing out that he's not tolerant of people who are not tolerant. Therefore logic dictates he's not tolerant to himself which in turn means he's making this thread because he's pissed off at himself.
I expect a red blur next time I use Goggle Earth somewhere in his vicinity after he comes to the conclusion he's inside a paradox.
Interesting paradox...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8841340504849794258
:lol:
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i hate all life forms, but i still tolerate you all :D
You're a life form too you know.
Unless you have something to tell us, nuke :nervous:
my nihilistic misanthropy is not self-exclusive :D
why the **** do you think im on weed all the time :D
No, but seriously. People just have a natural tendency to be intolerant of people different than themselves. In a survival of the fittest world, promoting yourself over others will get you places in life. People will act that way unless taught differently. Though the people on this forum don't really seem like the kind of people who need teaching.
correct, the human brain is hard wired for intolerance. tolerance != survivability. any life form's prime motivation is simply to exist. it has no other purpose.
the human brain is said to have 3 layers. the ancient or so called reptilian brain, which is the core for instinct and basic emotions like fear or aggression. not to mention things like heartbeat and respiration, its not something we can just shut off.
then you got the so called mammalian brain (i think its a misnomer and evolved before mammals became dominant), which you can think of as the emo part of the brain, this is required so that parenting can be performed, so you can produce offspring more efficiently than before. it used to be you produced a large number of offspring, in hopes that a tiny few would survive. animals would lay their fertilized eggs en mass and just walk off. now they produce live offspring and protect them till they can defend themselves. and later form packs by which survival is more likely.
the cortex or the thinking brain, the thing that humans have that can do math and solve problems. you can use this part of the brain to figure out that it might be better to ignore the lower more primitive parts of the brain. but its really just running a bypass. those racist, intolerant instincts will always lie buried down in the basement, occasionally poping up and making people act like total asshats. humans don't have as much of a choice as people think they do. they have some, but mostly were reactionary creatures, and will do things based on where our environment will take us.
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why the **** do you think im on weed all the time :D
That had nothing to do with that. I was just thinking you might be implying that you are not a life form. Apparently I was wrong...
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Being tolerant of everyone isn't advisable. I'm not tolerant of serial killers or rapists or all those other poeple. However, I find the complete lack of tolerance that many people have to be downright disturbing. I'm not saying we should all be tolerant to everyone in some utopian society, I'm just making the point that people should be more tolerant of others. Like say, Swantz, who has nothing better to do except whine all the time about what people say.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocU5x_03MDM
I just managed to pry myself away from an argument with a guy who accused me of being a scientific idiot because I didnt think that evolution was the only steering force behind life on earth, and attepted to compare me to some rapists from 400 years ago... - A friend on MSN
While I think that comparing him to rapists was excessive, otherwise I don't have any sympathy. After years of harrassment by religious people when I was in primary and secondary school and often being told I was going to go to hell for being an atheist, I find it quite hard to care when these religious types get a taste of their own medicine.
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Like say, Swantz, who has nothing better to do except whine all the time about what people say.
I think you misunderstood my post good sir.
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No, this isn't the only incident he's referring to.
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While I think that comparing him to rapists was excessive, otherwise I don't have any sympathy. After years of harrassment by religious people when I was in primary and secondary school and often being told I was going to go to hell for being an atheist, I find it quite hard to care when these religious types get a taste of their own medicine.
Except my friend isn't a very religious person. He believes in the afterlife, and maybe jesus, but doesn't really go to church, and respects all atheists (or he wouldn't be my friend). He would *never* tell anyone they're going to hell for being an atheist. He'd *never* do anything to hurt them, disrespect them, or anything that might insult them the slightest bit. Does he deserve this treatment? Merely because he is religious?
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Being tolerant of everyone isn't advisable. I'm not tolerant of serial killers or rapists or all those other poeple. However, I find the complete lack of tolerance that many people have to be downright disturbing. I'm not saying we should all be tolerant to everyone in some utopian society, I'm just making the point that people should be more tolerant of others.
There is an extent to where tolerance is good. Criminal acts are not tolerable, this is why we have laws and a justice systems. Things like race, religion, place of origin, and sexual preferance is what should be at least tolerable. It would be better if those things were accepted, but, there are just too many stupid people out there. Since I moved from Rhode Island to Tennessee, I have become a victom of intolerance just because I am from a northern state. My co-workers have tried to get me fired from my job because they think I am what they call, a stupid yankee. I'm sick of it.
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We learn to label things by obvious differences, when we were tribal, a large black and orange twitching thing in the bushes, for example, meant 'find another path, fast.'. Back then it was about survival, you didn't stop and think about whether the Tiger would starve to death if it didn't get food, because you were more concerned about not being food.
Problem is, we congregated far faster than we overcame that habit of labelling things, and we naturally jump to a whole heap of conclusions from obvious 'labels', camp people are obviously gay, people with Texan accents are obviously Bible-Bashers etc.
We live in a Global community but still have far far too many tribal habits.
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We live in a Global community but still have far far too many tribal habits.
Which is why I'm on a soapbox preaching tolerance under a leaky tent.
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:lol:
Well, I think the thing that is hardest for anyone to understand is that there is no right answer, only your answer. However, that doesn't mean people have to be derogatory or insulting to people who don't agree with them, that is tribal thinking at its' highest level, 'You not wear pink hair, you not member of Pink Hair Tribe. You Strange. Must ridicule and belittle strange things, it takes away my fear of it.'
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Does he deserve this treatment? Merely because he is religious?
I didn't deserve it either, but that didn't stop it from happening. Welcome to our world.
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No, this isn't the only incident he's referring to.
Oh? Please, do elaborate.
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Just various things you've said, like this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,53882.msg1089954.html#msg1089954) (though I might have deserved that), and this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,53623.msg1089518.html#msg1089518)
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How does that qualify as whining? I mean if you wanted to get really technical about it, sure, but I felt I was telling those folks to stop whining.
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Well, not whining per se, but just general complaining.
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You take my posts far too seriously.
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You have a strange definition of serious ...
Now that you mention it, I can sort of see a less serious side of those posts. It doesn't come across at first though. Try adding a smiley ;)
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I'm only a year older than you, blackhole, but I think you'll find as you explore your world -- with college and such -- that things really aren't this simple.
It sounds like you're pretty pissed off about certain specific things that've happened to you. I had similar feelings at your age, as do many teenagers, and they passed. I'm very happy now, and I accept that, unfortunately, crap happens, including intolerant people.
That doesn't keep me from being pissed off now and again -- a recent argument here on HLP can attest to that -- but I tend not to hold grudges any more. People will be people.
I hope you find the same kind of peace.
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why the **** do you think im on weed all the time :D
That had nothing to do with that. I was just thinking you might be implying that you are not a life form. Apparently I was wrong...
what else would i be? god? a voice in your head? i dont get you people :D
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A robot, a figment of my imagination ... its crazy, but you never know ;)
EDIT: Or a hyperintelligent shade of the color blue ... err ... is that an organism?
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An imaginary friend. Someone imagines you, and you post something.
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Tolerance of people and tolerance of actions are two separate things.
Tolerance of thoughts belong in the former, intolerance of intolerance into latter.
Tolerance of people (thoughts, ideas, personalities, everything that doesn't affect anyone else) should be pretty clear. Voltaire said it perhaps the best: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Tolerance of actions (things that affect other people) is a different matter altogether, and is not quite so simple matter to place into a group of things that should or should not be tolerated... However, I'd say that in most cases* it is the opinion of the affected that defines the category. If you are hurt or insulted by someone's actions, you don't need to tolerate it. In the Internet the obvious correct course of action regarding idiots is to distance yourself from the argument abuse rather than get sucked into a mutual virtual excrement flinging contest to the trolls' amusement.
Of course, no one's there to ask the murder victims' opinions, yet we place that sort of behaviour strictly to "not tolerated", except if it's done in great numbers and to the sounds of trumpets, but that's a different matter. Of course, tolerance of euthanasia touches this one pretty close...
*Cases where the opinion of the affected is not considered important [EDIT: or valid] are pretty interesting case in themselves by the way. As a homework - in which cases it would be acceptable to use general opinion as the authority of placement into "tolerated" or "not tolerated" category?
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what else would i be? god? a voice in your head? i dont get you people :D
My kitchen chair. I knew that damn thing was out to kill the world. :p
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:lol:
But this is turning into a spamfest. Let's get back on topic (or not :P)
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Well, this is the human race, after all. :rolleyes:
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The secret of tolerance: Alot of people can get under our skin sometimes and it's all natural. But along the lines of what Herra Tohtori posted tolerance can be achieved. The secret is sort of a revelation - we are no better than anybody else in this world. Hard to believe but we aren't. The differences I honestly believe lie in the decisions we make as individuals.
Once we truly see/feel that we are no better are attitude changes towards everybody. Of course real life can blind us from time to time and this is easier to say when our stress levels are down. :p
But I honestly believe it can be done.
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I prefer to think of a more arrogant solution. We are better than everybody else, therefore it's not their fault they're not as tolerant as we are. :p
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the most we can do is be fair and not try to pretend were not all a bunch of racist ****s. we just programmed our brains to ignore that impulse. some do this better than others, some don't even try. anyone who says their not racist is probably more racist, just because they ignore the fact that its a hard-wired impulse. why do you think hippies come up with so many reverse racism policies?
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One thing that I am intolerant of:
Swantz has been giving us lots of mirrors and even put up a new website to replace Hades Combine. And all you have to say about 'im is that he goes around whining? Tolerance my ass.
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welcome to reality, the reality is most people are asshats. good people submit and become 2nd class asshats, its the only way they can survive. the other option is being a bum :D
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No, BH was the one compared to a rapist. He didn't do the comparing.
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An example of tolerance: not banning someone for their impossibly huge signature.
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can someone get banned for resurrecting a bunch of old topics all at once?
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One can only hope. :blah:
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i like your siggy by the way, very informative :D
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The secret of tolerance: Alot of people can get under our skin sometimes and it's all natural. But along the lines of what Herra Tohtori posted tolerance can be achieved. The secret is sort of a revelation - we are no better than anybody else in this world. Hard to believe but we aren't. The differences I honestly believe lie in the decisions we make as individuals.
Once we truly see/feel that we are no better are attitude changes towards everybody. Of course real life can blind us from time to time and this is easier to say when our stress levels are down. :p
But I honestly believe it can be done.
I don't think that's true at all. Tell anyone to emulate any one of a dozen famous people who have revolutionized the course of history and they'll probably say it's not a bad idea, although they might disagree with you on the exact way you might go about doing that. Tell anyone to emulate any one of a dozen famous serial rapists or child molestors and I doubt you'll get anywhere near as positive of an answer.
So I don't think tolerance is 'everybody is OK'. There are people who are intolerant of other people who have to be...well, I don't know what the word to use is, but you get the picture. You cannot be tolerant of everybody because sometimes people's wants and even needs conflict. Sometimes two people have a deep-rooted interest in something, neither can be satisfied without dissatisfying the other, and no compromise is possible. Sometimes somebody is simply intolerant of others and the only way to solve that problem is to make them stop being intolerant of others by being intolerant to them.
And it's that particular factor that trips people up all the time. People will assume that their experiences are valid, and that the things that do things for them will do the same thing for others, and that the things that other people want are similar to the same things that they want. People assume that they're more enlightened than somebody else at the same time that their target is thinking the same thing about them.
Doesn't mean that everybody's answer is as valid as everybody else's, or that everybody is write or wrong. It's none of the above and it's much more complex than any of these ideals would have you believe. Somebody can be known for being utterly intolerant, but cause a backlash of tolerance as other people react to that intolerance. Yet that first person may not even be more intolerant than many other people that nobody cares about. Yet it's the way that they're intolerant, and the fact that other people (in their intolerance) label them as intolerant that causes such a wave of goodwill and positive effects.
That's probably as confusing as hell. :p
I don't have the historical context to make this as support to that statement, but I'll put it forward as what I suspect is a real-life example: Malcolm X. Pretty damn controversial figure. Yet at the same time, he helped to highly publicize racial inequalities and I would guess that, as a consequence of his speeches, more was done to achieve racial equality than if there had just been a general apathy in place of the polarization from his speeches. People, in general, react more to an obvious problem than to a quiet problem. By causing so much controversy and getting himself labeled a "menace to society" he made racial inequality a big problem.
But of course if people were tolerant to that kind of behavior, it wouldn't be a big deal.
So...I believe that tolerance is a good thing, but also that sometimes intolerance is more tolerant than tolerance, and that true wisdom is knowing when to be tolerant and intolerant (among other things).
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So...I believe that tolerance is a good thing, but also that sometimes intolerance is more tolerant than tolerance, and that true wisdom is knowing when to be tolerant and intolerant (among other things).
/me reads the above text 13 times.
Intolerance is easy to achieve and difficult to let go, hence it is more tolerant. And yes, I think I agree with you on that last sentence. You can never have too much of a good thing.
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write or wrong
Typo ;)
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tolerance is really just choosing to be fair even though your instincts or even your thoughts say otherwise. im for tolerance but im against things like reverse racism/sexism/whateverism.
i do find that alot of minorities use racism as an excuse for ill behavior. i once spotted a group of alaskan natives who were *****ing because they got tossed out of a bar. they were obviously hosed since i could smell the booze off of em from 10 feet away. from their comments i could tell that them most likely had too much to drink and were asked to leave. now ive been kicked out of bars myself for blatant asshattery. when i got kicked out of the bar it was because i had too much to drink and was starting to become an annoyance. but when these natives got kicked out of the bar, it was because of white people.
now using that as an example, say some reverse racism policy says, if youre white and you have x amount of drinks and make y amount of noise you have to leave the bar. but if you're a native you can have x*2 number of drinks and make y*2 amount of noise, to compensate for any subconscious preference towards white people by the owner of the bar.
what such a policy has done is:
accused an innocent person of being racist
been racist in its own design
assumes that being white is somehow intrinsically better than being some other race
and that being a minority is bad and should get special treatment to make things fair
now in america and probably alot of other places in the world, its better to be a minority than it is to be white, just because of the number of these polices currently in law. and whenever a white person objects they are immediately thought of as a racist. i think this sort of thing just makes the problem worse, not better.
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tolerance is really just choosing to be fair even though your instincts or even your thoughts say otherwise. im for tolerance but im against things like reverse racism/sexism/whateverism.
i do find that alot of minorities use racism as an excuse for ill behavior. i once spotted a group of alaskan natives who were *****ing because they got tossed out of a bar. they were obviously hosed since i could smell the booze off of em from 10 feet away. from their comments i could tell that them most likely had too much to drink and were asked to leave. now ive been kicked out of bars myself for blatant asshattery. when i got kicked out of the bar it was because i had too much to drink and was starting to become an annoyance. but when these natives got kicked out of the bar, it was because of white people.
now using that as an example, say some reverse racism policy says, if youre white and you have x amount of drinks and make y amount of noise you have to leave the bar. but if you're a native you can have x*2 number of drinks and make y*2 amount of noise, to compensate for any subconscious preference towards white people by the owner of the bar.
what such a policy has done is:
accused an innocent person of being racist
been racist in its own design
assumes that being white is somehow intrinsically better than being some other race
and that being a minority is bad and should get special treatment to make things fair
now in america and probably alot of other places in the world, its better to be a minority than it is to be white, just because of the number of these polices currently in law. and whenever a white person objects they are immediately thought of as a racist. i think this sort of thing just makes the problem worse, not better.
I've had roughly the same belief since like 6th grade. :yes:
On top of that, I'm always appalled when I hear people say "how cun i be racist to mah own race?". It's almost like they fail to grasp what racism actually is...
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Agreed with both posts above this.... here in México that problem almost doesn't exist... we treat everyone the same, who cares if your skin is a different color, i'll insult you the same as to anyone else XD
But seriously, there is still lot of political, religious, and race discrimination, specially in the poorer areas.
We usually don't have special treatment for minorities, i suppose that's for not having the same heavy history about slavery and exploit of the less fortunate... except for natives, those seriously got the short end of the stick over here.
I think tolerance ends where my rights are getting violated... and i lost track of what else i was going to say :D
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intolerance is kicking your ass and refusing to hire you for your beliefs
thinking you are an idiot for your beliefs is COMPLETEY different
learn the difference
(Cry more)
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Well, that's the rub, isn't it? If you think someone is an idiot for their beliefs, and you don't plan on hiring idiots, doesn't it follow that you don't hire that person because of their beliefs?
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You're never an idiot for what you believe.
You're an idiot for persisting in the error long after reasoned argument has demolished all possible support for your posistion. This is something that's actually quite difficult to accomplish.
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now in america and probably alot of other places in the world, its better to be a minority than it is to be white, just because of the number of these polices currently in law. and whenever a white person objects they are immediately thought of as a racist. i think this sort of thing just makes the problem worse, not better.
I must say, I've read a large amount of scholarship -- economic, political, and psychological -- about why this is entirely untrue. I just thought it shouldn't go over unchallenged.
Many minorities still suffer crippling disadvantages in spite of any and all affirmative action.
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The problem with that statement is that there are places in the US where the white population is now the minority, or has been for some time, but don't recieve any special dispensation for it. Take LA for example. The NAACP actually tried to get the city's laws rewritten to exclude whites from minority protections when they became a minority in the city. That's reverse discrimination in its purest form.
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Problem is, what is called in the UK 'Positive Discrimination' causes resentment. The example that is always given is this:
If someone in a UK firm wants to create a 'Black Women's society', this is fine and good and anyone who complains is in trouble.
If someone in a UK firm wants to create a 'White Women's society', this is racist and prejudiced and should be blocked at all costs.
These rules end up creating far more resentment than they cure.
It may positive, but it's still discrimination.
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Oh, I don't want to defend positive discrimination/affirmative action. A just world would be a world in which race didn't matter.
I just wanted to point out that minorities (in the common usage of the term), and even women, are still very disadvantaged.
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The problem with that statement is that there are places in the US where the white population is now the minority, or has been for some time, but don't recieve any special dispensation for it. Take LA for example. The NAACP actually tried to get the city's laws rewritten to exclude whites from minority protections when they became a minority in the city. That's reverse discrimination in its purest form.
Do you have a source for this? I really want to show it to a few (several thousand) people. ;)
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I think class based Affirmative Action is a good idea...
I just don't think race should enter into it.
The trouble is, you can't just ask all the people involved to vote against what amounts to cheap college for them.
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The only way to stop racism completely is to stop seeing race entirely. That would not really be easy to achieve though.
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The only way to stop racism completely is to stop seeing race entirely. That would not really be easy to achieve though.
...or view the entire human species as a single race.
Look at what this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_Zonday) has to say about race. If I were him, I think I would consider myself to be Shivan. :blah:
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The problem with that statement is that there are places in the US where the white population is now the minority, or has been for some time, but don't recieve any special dispensation for it. Take LA for example. The NAACP actually tried to get the city's laws rewritten to exclude whites from minority protections when they became a minority in the city. That's reverse discrimination in its purest form.
Do you have a source for this? I really want to show it to a few (several thousand) people. ;)
Try editions of the LA Times from several years ago.
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...or view the entire human species as a single race.
It doesn't work that way. Basic entry-level biology will teach you why. It is only the naive and the ignorant who would ever think otherwise.
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...or view the entire human species as a single race.
It doesn't work that way. Basic entry-level biology will teach you why. It is only the naive and the ignorant who would ever think otherwise.
gotta agree there. racism is caused because of the way the human mind works, while you can still be as fair as your higher reasoning functions allow,. your still controlled by those low level instinctual impulses to stay with your own kind.
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Our intelligence allows us to live above 'most' instincts. The only prejudice instincts you should hang on to is for safety concerns for your family and yourselves. Other than that we shouldn't pretend we don't have the brains to suppress 'primitive instincts.'
That just sounds like an justification for being racist.
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then you run into the problem that most people dont use their brains. theres not a damn thing you can do to make people use their brains, they will or they wont. i mean using your brain to be fair might be a good idea, but when reality sets in its not such an effective solution. being fair may not be at the top of your concerns if your poor and have to work really hard just to survive. mammalian instincts of self and family preservation will see to that. but then you still have the primal reptilian instincts of the lower brain to contend with. turns out you have 2 regions of the brain saying be racist, and only one saying not to.
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In short, what you're trying to say is that racism is here to stay, whether we like it or not.
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Racism is just one of an infinite number of prejudices we as human beings exhibit. Yes, it's here to stay. No, nobody cares. It's much easier to acknowledge it and move on to something else than to spend any time dwelling on a topic that is this blatantly retarded.
Just for the record... Yes, I see color. I also see age, sex, sexual orientation, religion, weight, strength, speech, intelligence, attitude, location, origin, nationality, political affiliation, height, hair color, eye color, taste in music, taste in dress, and half a billion other things I can't recall off the top of my head. And anyone who claims they do not see any of these is a liar.
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gotta agree there. racism is caused because of the way the human mind works, while you can still be as fair as your higher reasoning functions allow,. your still controlled by those low level instinctual impulses to stay with your own kind.
fortunately "your own kind" is not something wired into the lower level, how you figure it out is sure, but if you grow up in an environment were there is no notice payed to race then you will not notice it.
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
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Racism is just one of an infinite number of prejudices we as human beings exhibit. Yes, it's here to stay. No, nobody cares. It's much easier to acknowledge it and move on to something else than to spend any time dwelling on a topic that is this blatantly retarded.
Just for the record... Yes, I see color. I also see age, sex, sexual orientation, religion, weight, strength, speech, intelligence, attitude, location, origin, nationality, political affiliation, height, hair color, eye color, taste in music, taste in dress, and half a billion other things I can't recall off the top of my head. And anyone who claims they do not see any of these is a liar.
Prejudice is not discrimination...
"blatanly retarded?" You know how many people are killed trough racism, right? (you do live in CA, a fair generalization?) How is that "retarded?"
You guys might feel like your just a bunch of puppets controlled by internal (genes, morality, ect.) and external ("outside") influences. No free will just controlled in every aspect of your life. It's different, you decide when to take control. Yes it's your brain tell it what to act on. We inherently are evil but we don't have to just give in and accepted that.
I told this story before but, if there is a man at the edge of a cliff and hypothetically there are a bunch of dominoes hitting one another until they eventually reach the man on the cliff pushing off to his death, then did he commit suicide? No, he was obviously pushed. Now think of those dominoes as the internal (genes, morality, ect.) and external ("outside") forces of everyday life, does it make a difference?
gotta agree there. racism is caused because of the way the human mind works, while you can still be as fair as your higher reasoning functions allow,. your still controlled by those low level instinctual impulses to stay with your own kind.
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
So your intolerant of tolerant people...? Intolerance is killing our society...
Here's a story...
Alot of my friends are athiest and alot of them considered themselves rebels against society. They thought that alot of the "christians" around here were intolerant of them. I wore a suit and carried around a bible, I was ridiculed at first because they saw me as conservative and they were very prejudice towards me. Untill I let them rationalized that I was the only one wearing a suit and that I was going against what everyone else (even what they) accepted as tolerable making me a rebel just like them. They realized that they were the ones that were being intolerant of me because of their prejudice. Once they got to know me, they realized that even though I didn't do alot of the things they did, I was friendly and didn't consider myself any better than them. Which created respect between us.
I was a rebel in my own way and didn't mind being the outcast but was true to who I claimed to be, actions speak louder than words.
So we can call one side intolerant but when it comes down to it we are the ones that need to be tolerant.
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gotta agree there. racism is caused because of the way the human mind works, while you can still be as fair as your higher reasoning functions allow,. your still controlled by those low level instinctual impulses to stay with your own kind.
fortunately "your own kind" is not something wired into the lower level, how you figure it out is sure, but if you grow up in an environment were there is no notice payed to race then you will not notice it.
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
I think tolerance is more of a melting pot than cancer. ;)
By the way, Bobboau, I like your beams, especially the Shivan ones.
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In order to be tolerant, you have to realise the possibility for intolerance.
It's like the UK government going, 'You see those people? See how their skins are different colours, and they have different cultures and religions? See how they dress differently and talk differently? If you so much as notice this, we will land on you like a ton of bricks, so we want you to be very aware of who is different, so that you don't point out that they are different.'
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In order to be tolerant, you have to realise the possibility for intolerance.
It's like the UK government going, 'You see those people? See how their skins are different colours, and they have different cultures and religions? See how they dress differently and talk differently? If you so much as notice this, we will land on you like a ton of bricks, so we want you to be very aware of who is different, so that you don't point out that they are different.'
I concur. Once you know the flipside (pun entirely intended at no offence) of tolerance, you'll know how to be tolerant. :nod:
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society is the cancer thats killing our society, thats why i think we should kill society before it kills us all, go on, start launching missiles :D
i dont think tolerance is something you should force on people, if they're not being tolerant of their on volition then its not ****ing tolerance. people should be good people because they want to be, not because they have to be.
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Racism ends when we meet the Vasudans. Then we can be speciesist. :p
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people need somthing to complain about or someone to blame. simple as that.
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i say we blame all the worlds problems on tinfioil. can someone second the motion?
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i say we blame all the worlds problems on tinfioil. can someone second the motion?
second.
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ok i just posted. nuke where is it?
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You guys might feel like your just a bunch of puppets controlled by internal (genes, morality, ect.) and external ("outside") influences. No free will just controlled in every aspect of your life. It's different, you decide when to take control. Yes it's your brain tell it what to act on. We inherently are evil but we don't have to just give in and accepted that.
It may be easy for someone who was raised to think this way to do so, to be colorblind and tolerant of others. For others who were raised to think otherwise, it's no so simple. I, for example, was raised to hate any form of liberalism (in fact, I actually used the "L word" as an insult on many occasions). I was essentially raised on Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and extremely conservative Christian beliefs. My girlfriend, my sister, and my dad all make Ronald Reagan look like a moderate. Even though I've become much more centrist and open, I still can't bring myself to say I have liberal beliefs.
It's not as easy as it seems to simply change the views you've had since you were a child. It's almost impossible in some cases.
fortunately "your own kind" is not something wired into the lower level, how you figure it out is sure, but if you grow up in an environment were there is no notice payed to race then you will not notice it.
100% agree with you here...
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
...but don't at all agree with you here. Having tolerance forced on people is destroying our society, not tolerance itself. When civil rights leaders can get unnecessarily outraged at "nappy heady hoes" and be taken seriously, or when legitimate criticism of a group of people is labeled as racism, we have a problem.
Political correctness will honestly be the death of western civilization.
ok i just posted. nuke where is it?
If there were a Bash.org for forums, this would go there. :lol:
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It may be easy for someone who was raised to think this way to do so, to be colorblind and tolerant of others.
For the record I was not raised to view that way. :)
I do agree, there are certainly factors of influence in decision making. We base our reality on our experiences.
But I believe in the power of choice and that such a thing exist and is not a illusion.
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GET BACK IN YOUR CAGE!!!
Oh sorry, for a second there I thought you were my moral values.
You really do sound just like him. But I shut him up long ago.
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I agree. The power of choice is quite important. If you want to see things one way, you will see things that way. If you want to see things from different perspectives, you will too.
...of course, people who do try to think from different points of view may find it difficult to get angry with almost anyone except things which are not sentient, like computers.
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ok Nuke
all the gen disc posting i did last time i was on is gone. where did it go?
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i didnt do it
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Not me either, and the Admin don't tend to 'vanish' posts.
Well... Except Styxx, but he's not around often ;)
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So your intolerant of tolerant people...? Intolerance is killing our society...
Here's a story...
Alot of my frie... ...ed to be tolerant.
first off I never said I was intolerant of tolerant people.
second off... What?!
what did that story have to do with anything?
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
...but don't at all agree with you here. Having tolerance forced on people is destroying our society, not tolerance itself. When civil rights leaders can get unnecessarily outraged at "nappy heady hoes" and be taken seriously, or when legitimate criticism of a group of people is labeled as racism, we have a problem.
Political correctness will honestly be the death of western civilization.
or how about when some group of people does something horrible but we are not allowed to be outraged about it because that would be intolerant.
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Thing is there, it is also a question of the fact that other people are intolerant of you, so there is a natural resentment if you feel it is 'wrong' to be intolerant of them.
Obvious examples mostly exist in cultural 'clashes' between East and West, where we are bombarded with images of people calling for heads and for stonings and yet are told ourselves that we must be respectful of other cultures etc.
There's a lot of Media play going in with that, I'll certainly say that much, but asking yourself whether you should be intolerant of intolerance is, to my mind, a silly question. It's all very well being cerebral about things, but you can't turn into some kind of mental Oozlem bird.
Intolerance is the one thing that should not be tolerated, paradox or not. But intolerance is a 3-edged sword, to paraphrase B5, and depends heavily on interpretation.
That said, as mentioned earlier, we also need to be careful how much intolerance there truly is and how much we are just having it blown out of proportion by an overzealous Media machine that cares more about ratings than facts.
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So your intolerant of tolerant people...? Intolerance is killing our society...
Here's a story...
Alot of my frie... ...ed to be tolerant.
first off I never said I was intolerant of tolerant people.
second off... What?!
what did that story have to do with anything?
anyway, "tolerance" is the cancer that is destroying western civilization.
...but don't at all agree with you here. Having tolerance forced on people is destroying our society, not tolerance itself. When civil rights leaders can get unnecessarily outraged at "nappy heady hoes" and be taken seriously, or when legitimate criticism of a group of people is labeled as racism, we have a problem.
Political correctness will honestly be the death of western civilization.
or how about when some group of people does something horrible but we are not allowed to be outraged about it because that would be intolerant.
Well if you believe that tolerance is killing our society, is it fair to assume that you are intolerant of what is killing society (tolerance)?
The story shows exactly what Flipside said "In order to be tolerant, you have to realise the possibility for intolerance."
They were being hypocritical in rebelling against the very thing they become, people intolerant and prejudice of whom they claimed to be were intolerant and prejudice of them.
or how about when some group of people does something horrible but we are not allowed to be outraged about it because that would be intolerant.
That is political correctness, which IMO is truly killing our society as nuclear1 said.
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Tolerance? Up to a point.
tolerance has it's limit...but what to tolerate and to what extent? Given that people have different oppinions on everything and different tastes, the answer to this question also varries greatly as a result.
the only way to have true tolerance would be for everyone to be mindless drones...like the B0rg. :lol:
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not nessicarily. if everyone were to keep thir mouths etc. shut about all the things that they were intolerant of eventually everyone would be tolerent for fear of sounding like a jackass in a world of people who kept thier mouths shut.
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I wish it were that simple, after all, who decides what is tolerable and what is not?
There have been times in history when people have stood up and said things that have made them unpopular to those around them, because their definition of what is tolerable is different. Child Labour Laws, Womens Rights, the abolishment of Slavery, were all things that started with the few finding something intolerable in a world that tolerated it.
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not nessicarily. if everyone were to keep thir mouths etc. shut about all the things that they were intolerant of eventually everyone would be tolerent for fear of sounding like a jackass in a world of people who kept thier mouths shut.
It's not quite that simple. Suppose you put an introvert in a room of extroverts. Now suppose you put an extrovert in a room of introverts.
In the first case, the introvert will feel excluded because the extroverts will keep on interrupting and talking over him - which works if everybody else is doing it. In the second case, the extrovert will feel excluded, because the introverts will be more interested in having quiet conversation than in telling loud jokes.
Now that's an extreme example for the sake of illustrating a point. But I don't think it's an unrealistic one. I think in both cases, you could have lone individuals who felt like the other group was being 'intolerant', when in reality, it's just how they are. There's no way for that to change without one side or the other changing the way that they act for the sake of the other group - giving up a part of their identity, which is neither good or bad, just different.
Keeping people's mouths shut is not tolerance. Understanding that what you do may piss the hell out of someone else and vice versa is more along the lines of tolerance. Getting angry is also human, and what makes people angry is not universal. Hell, in some sense, I would argue that racist comments are a part of culture and have claim to be tolerated. It's not PC nor accepted but I think there is a point where saying even the most hateful, derogatory thing is no different than calling a lawyer some slang term. All because of the context, situation, or tone.
So, to go back to the original post. I object to the idea that using unconscious social conventions to force other people to moderate their behavior in a way that you think is better. I don't think that's tolerance. In fact I think that's pretty intolerant. At some point, people are going to realize that they don't see eye-to-eye on what tolerance is and isn't, and that the supposed ban on tolerance is really causing more harm than good. Every time somebody makes a comment that, to their mind, is within the acceptable limits of tolerance, everybody else freaks out and starts trying to censure them because they're not holding to the established rule to maintain social order.
I think that's kind of where we are today. Although I think that also sounds like some kind of bizarre, Giver-like utopia. (Not that I really liked that book when I read it...I thought the kid was something of a jackass for unilaterally making the decision to give everybody else back all the memories. :p)
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ok, it seems I'm still being misunderstood, it is not the practice of accepting others who are different which I find to be problematic, it is the institutionalized concept, it is the very fact that you think of it in terms of acceptance of others to begin with, it is an unrealistic view of the world, it is a view which only hardens the human tendency to categorize and discriminate, while at the same time setting the rules in opposition to the natural outcome of it. we should not be operating on a level of blindly accepting anything, we should be fighting to defend our own way of life not someone else's, we should critically examine everything, especially the things which are less familiar to us.
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i think that if tolerance is not self administered then its not really tolerance. you got to draw a line somewhere, and id rather people have their line drawn than not give a **** about tolerance. you will still get conflicts but thats part of humanity.
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@Bobboau
There is alot of truth in what you've said.
The way I see it is most people aren't hurting anybody, but a line should definitely be drawn.