Hard Light Productions Forums

General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Hellstryker on July 31, 2008, 12:33:39 pm

Title: The subach
Post by: Hellstryker on July 31, 2008, 12:33:39 pm
Where does its name come ftom? the only thing I can find about it is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladenbach
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on July 31, 2008, 12:36:25 pm
It's named after the company that made it, Subach-Innes, which sounds like a made up name. Most of the other corporations have either obscure sources or easter-egg type names (ie. named after :v: staff).
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Hellstryker on July 31, 2008, 12:43:58 pm
Duh.. I knew that... or at least, I should've  :nervous:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Topgun on July 31, 2008, 12:51:00 pm
speaking of the subach, does anyone else prefer it over the Prometheus R?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on July 31, 2008, 12:55:58 pm
\o.

Me.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: blowfish on July 31, 2008, 12:58:21 pm
speaking of the subach, does anyone else prefer it over the Prometheus R?

The Prometheus R is a weak piece of s***.  It does less sustained damage than the Subach, and IIRC, uses more energy.  No one with experience and in their right mind would use it.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Topgun on July 31, 2008, 01:26:30 pm
I never fly with two Prometheus S's always one Prometheus S and a subach.
is this the norm?
I never use Prometheus R.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on July 31, 2008, 01:29:52 pm
Use two subaches instead; one subach has a really nice ROF, but it doesn't have the hitting power I'd like... except in a Myrmidon, Herc I, Ares, or Erinyes.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on July 31, 2008, 06:25:38 pm
Or use two Prom S.
Excellent for engaging targets at long range.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on July 31, 2008, 06:39:06 pm
The trouble with using both of course is the extreme difference in speed.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on July 31, 2008, 08:41:22 pm
The trouble with using both of course is the extreme difference in speed.
Not really. If you time your shots instead of spamming, they're a pretty good combination.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on July 31, 2008, 09:05:34 pm
If you attempt to snipe a faster enemy moving perpendicular to you at medium range with a Subach Prom S combo, only one set will hit, either the Prom or the Subach. (depending on the exact size and speed of course)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on July 31, 2008, 10:56:42 pm
http://www.subach-world.org.uk/aboutsuba.shtml :wtf:

Looks like it's also the name of some doctor, and a weapon in a space simulation game called...damn, I forgot its name...
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 31, 2008, 11:00:48 pm
speaking of the subach, does anyone else prefer it over the Prometheus R?

Definitely. I'll always choose the Subach over the Prometheus R. However, I note that using a Prometheus R with a Subach is useful for bomber intercept.

The other thing about the Prometheus R is that it was probably supposed to be the lower-level version of the Maxim. Note the high hull damage but poor shield damage.

However, I will choose the Prometheus R over the Subach in the demo version.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on July 31, 2008, 11:26:31 pm
The Prometheus R is an enemy weapon that :v: gives the player for some reason
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 31, 2008, 11:30:24 pm
I find the Subach bolts to be among the prettiest graphics in the whole of FreeSpace 2.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 01, 2008, 12:36:58 am
I find the Subach bolts to be among the prettiest graphics in the whole of FreeSpace 2.
Mvp or otherwise?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 01, 2008, 12:56:49 am
with MVPs, I vote Kaysers. Sparkly awesomeness and win.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 01, 2008, 06:18:46 am
I still prefer the Subach bolts, even in MVPs. Kaysers look a bit weird too me.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Al Tarket on August 01, 2008, 07:47:33 am
i prefer the subach against anything else that eats up too much power or slow refire rate. and except from the Mekhu which i prefer more its critical when your trying to destroy something like a dragon or an astaroth.

but when it comes to owning big ships i tend to go for the double Prometheus S when available.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 01, 2008, 07:52:49 am
As far as Big Ship Ownage is concerned, if I assume you're talking about cruisers and above, I'd just take Maxims.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mad Bomber on August 01, 2008, 07:55:39 am
I play most of the time with a TBM which makes the Prom-R far more useful (but still nowhere near as good as the Prom-S).

I probably overdid it slightly, but, meh. It makes the missions against the NTF more challenging.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Al Tarket on August 01, 2008, 08:06:52 am
there is only one reason why i dont take the maxim.. guess.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 01, 2008, 10:31:05 am
there is only one reason why i dont take the maxim.. guess.

Recoil?

I'm starting to like the Maxim a little. I was able to save the Bastion, Malta and Templar in Clash of the Titans II because I took potshots at incoming warheads.

When it comes to Total Dumbfire Ownage, I think I rack up more kills on a Subach-Tempest loadout than if I took the so-called "ideal AI loadout". :cool:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: eliex on August 02, 2008, 08:55:31 pm
You will fear the Amazon if it is set on General AI with Maxims and charging en masse to you. If you don't have good shields you're mashed.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 02, 2008, 10:43:16 pm
Maxims are fine if you've got shields.

What I think would make the Amazon more fearful is if it comes towards you shooting Kayser beams. :wtf:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 03, 2008, 01:56:34 am
You will fear the Amazon if it is set on General AI with Maxims and charging en masse to you. If you don't have good shields you're mashed.
Whatever loadout you give the Amazon, it's still a piece of ****.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 03, 2008, 02:16:21 am
You will fear the Amazon if it is set on General AI with Maxims and charging en masse to you. If you don't have good shields you're mashed.
Whatever loadout you give the Amazon, it's still a piece of ****.

What more can you expect from a ship that has "SHOOT ME" engraved to its underside? ;)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Al Tarket on August 03, 2008, 02:59:17 am
and it would be funny to see an unmanned drone entering into the war :D, it would be dead in less time it takes to slurp your warm tea :rolleyes:.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 03, 2008, 03:03:07 am
and it would be funny to see an unmanned drone entering into the war :D, it would be dead in less time it takes to slurp your warm tea :rolleyes:.
There was a long discussion about that a while back.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 03, 2008, 03:09:28 am
and it would be funny to see an unmanned drone entering into the war :D, it would be dead in less time it takes to slurp your warm tea :rolleyes:.
There was a long discussion about that a while back.

Really? Where?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: nvsblmnc on August 03, 2008, 04:36:27 am
I'm starting to like the Maxim a little. I was able to save the Bastion, Malta and Templar in Clash of the Titans II because I took potshots at incoming warheads.

In my opinion, the Maxim is the ultimate anti-bomber weapon.  You can hit bombs from up to 3 klicks away, and once your Subach, PromS or Kayser has downed a bomber's shield, you can flick back to the Maxim and just shed it.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 03, 2008, 07:23:46 am
In my opinion, the Maxim is the ultimate anti-bomber weapon.  You can hit bombs from up to 3 klicks away, and once your Subach, PromS or Kayser has downed a bomber's shield, you can flick back to the Maxim and just shed it.
The Maxim is kinda meh if you can just hit them with a Harpoon.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 03, 2008, 08:41:18 am
What he said.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: james777 on August 03, 2008, 09:30:10 am
I play most of the time with a TBM which makes the Prom-R far more useful (but still nowhere near as good as the Prom-S).

I probably overdid it slightly, but, meh. It makes the missions against the NTF more challenging.

Well it made the game more fun.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 03, 2008, 07:45:14 pm
Does the AI work more efficiently on a dual Subach configuration or a Subach-Prometheus R one?

I believe the strongest AI configuration is a dual Kayser configuration with a bank each of Harpoons and Tornados.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 03, 2008, 09:10:38 pm
I like taking a myrmadon with a subach on the 4 gun mount where it does quite a big of rapid fire damage, and I'll put a prom R  on the two gun mount and only use it for sniping bombs and turrets at max range. The subach energy drain allows me to up the power to shields and engines, making for a very powerful air superiority fighter. With this configuration, I'll usually load out with tempest dumbfires for extra shreddage at close range. I replace the prom R with any other long range gun I can take if its available. It really does suck.

I rarely double up on the same gun. I'd rather flip from a subach to something longer range or more damaging for brief salvos. Relying more on the subach allows me to crank the engines and shields. Using secondaries after shooting off the rear shield with a subach makes for fast kills too.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Solatar on August 03, 2008, 10:03:23 pm
I love the Myrmidon four gun mount. With the right outfitting, the Myrmidon can really be a powerful fighter.

With four gun mounts, the Herc can be a dangerous assault fighter. Subach in 4 gun mount + Akheton + various missiles.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 03, 2008, 11:34:12 pm
I love the Myrmidon four gun mount. With the right outfitting, the Myrmidon can really be a powerful fighter.

With four gun mounts, the Herc can be a dangerous assault fighter. Subach in 4 gun mount + Akheton + various missiles.

I think this was a good example of how the sequel made you fill like time has passed since the first game. The herc was great in FS1 with the six gun mounts, but the myrmidon just shreds them by FS2. I actually really liked the myrmadon except that it was kind of silly looking and had rediculous weapons compatibility.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2008, 05:40:02 am
I think this was a good example of how the sequel made you fill like time has passed since the first game. The herc was great in FS1 with the six gun mounts, but the myrmidon just shreds them by FS2. I actually really liked the myrmadon except that it was kind of silly looking and had rediculous weapons compatibility.

Also note its profile. It seems to be quite an easy target for whatever reason.

When I use the Myrmidon, I employ an all-Subach, all-Tempest configuration. That's why I can rack up quite a number of kills while in the 53rd.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 04, 2008, 07:18:02 am
When I use the Myrmidon, I employ an all-Subach, all-Tempest configuration. That's why I can rack up quite a number of kills while in the 53rd.
Total Dumbfire Ownage?

To be honest, I actually had never even used Tempests until after being advised to do so by the PI walkthrough. It's kinda funny. I thought Furys/Tempests were useless, but they really aren't.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: nvsblmnc on August 04, 2008, 07:29:19 am
Agreed.  If you're close, or a good enough shot, they can lay down an offensive amount of firepower.  And they rearm very quickly, too.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Dilmah G on August 04, 2008, 07:44:00 am
When I use the Myrmidon, I employ an all-Subach, all-Tempest configuration. That's why I can rack up quite a number of kills while in the 53rd.
Total Dumbfire Ownage?

To be honest, I actually had never even used Tempests until after being advised to do so by the PI walkthrough. It's kinda funny. I thought Furys/Tempests were useless, but they really aren't.

Dumbfire pwnage FTW
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2008, 08:11:05 am
I saw Rake's Flail SCP video. That inspired me to try using the Total Dumbfire Ownage loadout. I've using the same loadout on every Myrmidon I can fly ever since.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 04, 2008, 09:14:59 am
Thing is, it's not that great on the Myrm cause it's got some minuscule missile capacity.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2008, 09:25:45 am
However, 320 Tempests set to dual-fire mode can last about ten minutes. And the reloading time is extremely fast.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 04, 2008, 09:29:24 am
Hmm... Then I must have an extraordinarily bad aim or something, cause they last me about half a minute (whoosh whoosh whoosh).
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Grizzly on August 04, 2008, 09:36:27 am
/me thinks the Prometheus R suffers from the same problem as the Artemis D.H.. It was supposed to be more powerfull, but no-one at playtesting noticed.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 04, 2008, 09:46:26 am
Nope. The Prom R is supposed to be weaker, due to the lack of argo, which was a primary component in its power-generation module.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Grizzly on August 04, 2008, 09:48:45 am
Nope. The Prom R is supposed to be weaker, due to the lack of argo, which was a primary component in its power-generation module.

Ehrm... I mean: More powerfull than it is now (not it is overpowered by a Subach). Not in the way of: Weaker then the S.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 04, 2008, 10:06:31 am
Ah. That. Then yea, I guess so.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 04, 2008, 12:09:52 pm
Hmm... Then I must have an extraordinarily bad aim or something, cause they last me about half a minute (whoosh whoosh whoosh).

Early game I think they work best fired at very close range after a few subach volleys hit the rear shields. This technique generally ensures that the tempests are going right into the hull of the fighter you're shooting.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: CP5670 on August 04, 2008, 12:42:37 pm
I use Tempests in almost every mission. They should be treated like a short range primary weapon, comparable to a quad Kayser, and you can rack up kills very quickly with them in a large swarm of enemies.

One issue with the Tempest is that the missile hardpoint locations on a fighter can make a big difference on how effective they are, since many fighters have hardpoints that are somewhat far apart and will result in one of the two Tempests (from dual fire mode) frequently missing small targets at close range. On the Myrmidon for example, the third bank is better than the other two.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 04, 2008, 01:24:41 pm
I view Tempests as melee weapons for FS2, short ranged, but oh so deadly.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Kie99 on August 04, 2008, 01:31:38 pm
I like taking a myrmadon with a subach on the 4 gun mount where it does quite a big of rapid fire damage, and I'll put a prom R  on the two gun mount and only use it for sniping bombs and turrets at max range. The subach energy drain allows me to up the power to shields and engines, making for a very powerful air superiority fighter. With this configuration, I'll usually load out with tempest dumbfires for extra shreddage at close range. I replace the prom R with any other long range gun I can take if its available. It really does suck.

I'm pretty sure the Subach is superior to the Prom R in every respect, including range.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 04, 2008, 01:34:34 pm
Same weapon range, and its faster cycle time makes up for its lower damage.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 04, 2008, 03:09:43 pm
It does have a slightly shorter range... but it's only like 100m - 300m difference.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Retsof on August 04, 2008, 04:51:03 pm
Range dosen't really matter anyway unless you're shooting at somehing big.  Otherwise beyond a few hundred meters it takes on the "spray and prey" approach.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 04, 2008, 04:53:51 pm
Range dosen't really matter anyway unless you're shooting at somehing big.  Otherwise beyond a few hundred meters it takes on the "spray and prey" approach.

spray and pray
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: colecampbell666 on August 04, 2008, 04:57:51 pm
On medium, the Subach is a good supplement to a stronger weapon, such as a Prometheus S on a Tauret. On it's own, it barely does anything in dual gun banks, quad banks are awesome though.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 04, 2008, 05:08:22 pm
The Subach doesn't go on a Tauret
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 04, 2008, 05:45:38 pm
That's a Mehku. Considering they're both HL-7 tis easy to confuse.
Pretty much the same thing, though even more spammy than the Subach.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: CP5670 on August 04, 2008, 06:10:33 pm
Range dosen't really matter anyway unless you're shooting at somehing big.  Otherwise beyond a few hundred meters it takes on the "spray and prey" approach.

Range makes a big difference on higher difficulties or against certain kinds of fighters. It's the main reason why the Prometheus S is better than the Kayser in many situations. A wing of insane level Taurets for example will easily destroy you if you let them get in range, so you need to take out at least one or two of them before they get close.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on August 04, 2008, 07:45:11 pm
When having a head to head with 8 Kaysers, most of your enemies don't get within 500m before they blow up, unless they're bombers. As for the Prom R, I'd rather use 4 banks of Subach lasers combined with tempests - if you know how to use tempests, it doesn't take many to kill a fighter.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2008, 07:51:14 pm
When having a head to head with 8 Kaysers, most of your enemies don't get within 500m before they blow up, unless they're bombers. As for the Prom R, I'd rather use 4 banks of Subach lasers combined with tempests - if you know how to use tempests, it doesn't take many to kill a fighter.

As Lightning Fall = Cannon Fodder Basilisks :drevil:

The Prometheus R has Level 1 Shield damage and Level 4 Hull damage. It's probably supposed to be an anti-hull cannon. :doubt:

I like using dual Subachs with an all-Tempest loadout. It works very well, especially in the first few missions of the main FreeSpace 2 campaign.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 04, 2008, 09:02:07 pm
I only really use the R if I think I might need to shoot a bomb down and I lack something better. In head to head, no. 300m closes in about a second on average, so the R is just stupid there. And when you get a flail or a prom S with better range, the R becomes completely useless.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 04, 2008, 09:03:45 pm
Speaking of which, what is the point of the Morning Star.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 04, 2008, 09:04:52 pm
Ragdolling fighters.
Pissing off people attacking cargo depots (when equipped on sentries)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: blowfish on August 04, 2008, 09:08:43 pm
Speaking of which, what is the point of the Morning Star.

I find that you can keep a maneuverable fighter like a Perseus where you want it long enough to plant a couple of missiles on it with morningstars.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 04, 2008, 09:20:14 pm
Speaking of which, what is the point of the Morning Star.

I find that you can keep a maneuverable fighter like a Perseus where you want it long enough to plant a couple of missiles on it with morningstars.

Dragons too. they can pin light fighters and snipe bombs at range. on some missions, that's a nice backup gun behind a quad bank of keysers or subachs.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2008, 10:36:30 pm
I actually found the Morningstar to be of great use in that FS2 mission where you have to escort the Vauban, Erinpura and Lucidity. For once, it's actually better than using dual Subachs. :eek:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 04, 2008, 11:12:04 pm
If you have to protect something fragile like a Triton from bombers, I'd take a Morning Star...just 'cause its safter to fire towards whatever you're escorting, and its fast, and has a nice range. You could use a Maxim, but that might end up killing your escort.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 04, 2008, 11:33:26 pm
If you have to protect something fragile like a Triton from bombers, I'd take a Morning Star...just 'cause its safter to fire towards whatever you're escorting, and its fast, and has a nice range. You could use a Maxim, but that might end up killing your escort.

I've never thought of that before. What a great tactic. Also heavy morning star fire can deflect a bomber and ruin its lock for missions where the bombers are hard to kill with whatever weapon selection command gives you. It's a utility gun for the creative.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: MrMittens on August 04, 2008, 11:43:10 pm
Range dosen't really matter anyway unless you're shooting at somehing big.  Otherwise beyond a few hundred meters it takes on the "spray and prey" approach.

Range makes a big difference on higher difficulties or against certain kinds of fighters. It's the main reason why the Prometheus S is better than the Kayser in many situations. A wing of insane level Taurets for example will easily destroy you if you let them get in range, so you need to take out at least one or two of them before they get close.

And that's why playing space-chicken on Insane doesn't really work. Like, at all.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2008, 01:19:54 am
In FS1, I found the Flail rifle particularly useless against Dragons. They just seemed to change its orientation by a tiny bit, which the AI then corrected a second later.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 05, 2008, 01:29:05 am
Range dosen't really matter anyway unless you're shooting at somehing big.  Otherwise beyond a few hundred meters it takes on the "spray and prey" approach.

Range makes a big difference on higher difficulties or against certain kinds of fighters. It's the main reason why the Prometheus S is better than the Kayser in many situations. A wing of insane level Taurets for example will easily destroy you if you let them get in range, so you need to take out at least one or two of them before they get close.

I'm curious how you engage your enemies in Freespace in that case... because I find the majority of FS2 to be a chicken game. Dogfights are for when the enemies gotten too close.

And that's why playing space-chicken on Insane doesn't really work. Like, at all.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 05, 2008, 01:36:06 am
In FS1, I found the Flail rifle particularly useless against Dragons. They just seemed to change its orientation by a tiny bit, which the AI then corrected a second later.

Hmm...maybe you could try shooting them continuously.

Speaking of the Flail and Morningstar, which one is stronger?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2008, 03:16:32 am
Hmm...maybe you could try shooting them continuously.
If I could continuously hit them, why would I be using the Flail in the first place?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 05, 2008, 03:33:35 am
When you hit them continuously they get pushed out of range of missiles, then the Morning Star itself... thus making me consider the morning star useless
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2008, 03:52:44 am
When you hit them continuously they get pushed out of range of missiles, then the Morning Star itself... thus making me consider the morning star useless
That's because you're just hitting them randomly as if the Morning Star were a normal laser. You're supposed to knock them around when they're going in a different direction (ie. not directly toward you, flying towards an escort for example) and them smack them with a missile. This stops them from doing damage to your escort and also blows them up if the missile does enough damage.

But that's a rather fiddly operation, so it's usually a better idea to just blow 'em up with a Kayser-Maxim combo, but note that the Morning Star isn't as useless as the Lamprey.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 05, 2008, 07:38:59 am
When you hit them continuously they get pushed out of range of missiles, then the Morning Star itself... thus making me consider the morning star useless
That's because you're just hitting them randomly as if the Morning Star were a normal laser. You're supposed to knock them around when they're going in a different direction (ie. not directly toward you, flying towards an escort for example) and them smack them with a missile. This stops them from doing damage to your escort and also blows them up if the missile does enough damage.

But that's a rather fiddly operation, so it's usually a better idea to just blow 'em up with a Kayser-Maxim combo, but note that the Morning Star isn't as useless as the Lamprey.

Agreed. The Lamprey's a piece of junk. Even the Akheton SDG or Circe is slightly better.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 05, 2008, 07:55:01 am
Lamprey is the leech weapon, right?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: colecampbell666 on August 05, 2008, 09:03:25 am
Yup. I have never used it.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: james777 on August 05, 2008, 09:08:06 am
The Lamprey looks good but is crap.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 05, 2008, 09:44:17 am
Looks good on paper, but sucks in combat.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 05, 2008, 11:18:26 am
Well, its only because the AI isn't effected by it.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 06, 2008, 12:10:39 am
Well, its only because the AI isn't effected by it.
Even in multi-player, harassing someone with the Lamprey is bound to get someone to pop up behind you and **** you up with Kaysers.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 06, 2008, 12:31:08 am
Give the lamprey a 3000 meter range and the additional effect of making ships comscramble so they can't get lock or a targeting reticle, and maybe I'll try it out again. As it stands: junk.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 06, 2008, 01:00:02 am
Give the lamprey a 3000 meter range and the additional effect of making ships comscramble so they can't get lock or a targeting reticle, and maybe I'll try it out again. As it stands: junk.
Give the Lamprey twice as much damage as the Shivan Super Laser and it'll be a decent weapon.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 06, 2008, 01:07:42 am
We don't need to spear juggernauts! (but yes, that proves a good point).
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Solatar on August 06, 2008, 01:44:10 am
I used the Leech in the original Silent Threat for about five minutes. It's a cool concept but if a dogfight with AI is lasting long enough that you sucking their afterburners dry (slowly) makes a difference, you haven't killed them quickly enough.

I can't remember, do the Leech/Lamprey weapons suck shield energy?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 06, 2008, 07:40:42 am
They don't seem to. All I know is that the Leech Cannon was at least useful as a Banshee replacement. The Lamprey, on the other hand, isn't. I've never used it and I never will.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 06, 2008, 07:49:22 am
They don't seem to. All I know is that the Leech Cannon was at least useful as a Banshee replacement. The Lamprey, on the other hand, isn't. I've never used it and I never will.
What makes the Leech Cannon useful? Shield damage?
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 06, 2008, 08:08:09 am
I have no idea. It just seems to work as well as the Banshee, although I prefer the latter.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 06, 2008, 05:08:20 pm
The S-breaker (and Circe) were good weapons. I especially like it on the Clash of Titans II, with a Erinyes with Prometheus S and Circe, you can wipe out all those nasty bombers typically... though the Seraphim are a challenge.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Topgun on August 06, 2008, 05:46:24 pm
the leech drains weapon and aburner energy, but only against human players.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on August 06, 2008, 11:21:36 pm
Fight an Erinyes wing or just one fighter armed with with Morning Stars and you'll know all about it - you won't get within range and you'll always be pointed away from your target. As for the Lamprey, it drains your energy reserves while being as effective as the training laser (not the targeting laser).
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 06, 2008, 11:56:04 pm
Targeting Laser doesn't seem to work. I tried using it yesterday in PI, but nothing happened.

I've never liked the S-Breaker for the same reasons why I dislike the Circe. The shield destroying feature is very nice, but it doesn't do any hull damage.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 06, 2008, 11:59:32 pm
"Targeting Laser" is for subspace missiles...though you have to make the TBL yourself.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2008, 01:45:58 am
Yeah, the Targeting Laser was originally for "summoning" spells. It summons a Level 3 Missile Beast with Armor of God and +3 Whoop-ass.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 07, 2008, 01:47:47 am
:wtf:

I'll stick to Shivan Super Lasers, thanks.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 07, 2008, 02:20:18 am
I'll stick to canons.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Mars on August 07, 2008, 03:48:04 am
The Circe does huge amounts of shield damage (3 vollys and you've exposed a Seraphims rear), then your Subach, or Prometheus, or Kayser can do it's job.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 07, 2008, 04:43:49 am
In theory, it's very nice, but since my accuracy is terrible, I can't fight very well with shield breakers.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Solatar on August 07, 2008, 08:36:51 am
I find it unsuitable for fighters as taking down the shield and THEN targeting the hull takes too long I think.

However a great tactic I've found is to launch a volley of hornets at an incoming bomber and while they're enroute knock the shields of the bomber down with the S-Breaker. In FS2 you have the trebuchet, but there's really no long range missiles in FS1 (although this only works in silent threat and player made campaigns that feature the S-breaker).
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Kosh on August 07, 2008, 11:04:34 am
The S-breaker (and Circe) were good weapons. I especially like it on the Clash of Titans II, with a Erinyes with Prometheus S and Circe, you can wipe out all those nasty bombers typically... though the Seraphim are a challenge.

A circe-maxim combo can waste a seraphim pretty easily.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Topgun on August 07, 2008, 11:15:37 am
s-breaker > circe.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Solatar on August 07, 2008, 11:26:11 am
Seems like a lot of the FS2 ships and weapons weren't pure technical upgrades, just aesthetic. The Subach is very similar to the Avenger, for example.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 07, 2008, 11:27:53 am
S-breaker (Circe)

$Velocity: 400.0   (450)
$Fire Wait: 0.3       (0.4)
$Damage: 40          (45)
$Armor Factor: 0.0    (0.0)
$Shield Factor: 1.0    (1.0)
$Subsystem Factor 0.0 (0.0)
$Lifetime: 4.0            (3.0)
$Energy Consumed:0.2 (1.0)

Yeah, the S-breaker is better.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: CP5670 on August 07, 2008, 11:30:38 am
Maxim/Tempest works much better than Maxim/Circe, since you can keep both of them firing at their normal rate without getting the penalty from linked primary weapons.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Galemp on August 07, 2008, 12:49:17 pm
ah, I loved using Tempests in Stealth vs. Awacs multi missions... :drevil:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: bfobar on August 07, 2008, 05:38:04 pm
Where this thread has gone makes me think about all the cool weapons we could have had in freespace but didn't get. (barring mods)

I'm not talking about uber keysers, but things like the following:

 a ship mounted beam cannon that pulses rapidly, bypasses shields, and does little damage. The attraction would be usefulness against shivans and their thick shielding. The accuracy would be so good that low damage and high power usage would be needed for balance.

A shield breaker secondary that has multiple warheads (like an inferno). That would be a bomber's worst nightmare since then your own bombs become lethal if they get intercepted close to your ship.

A heavy disruptor cannon that scrambles ships like the missile, but fires of one big bolt and uses like half your gun energy (I think of the ion cannon in the siege of hoth)

Primary bombs: Guns that use nearly all of your weapon energy in one big slow shot with crazy plasma animated gif graphics.

And from that post on the last page: The targeting laser spawns a big evil spider looking thing that pops out of subspace which moves at about 200m/s, docks with the ship, and then drags it back into subspace. I wonder if I could script that in FRED with the appropriate model? It could have fangs with slash beams that do only subsystem damage and probably should scream or laugh or something. Trust me, its a great idea.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Topgun on August 07, 2008, 05:47:20 pm
wow, very cool. I want that thing now.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Solatar on August 07, 2008, 08:35:03 pm
Cardinal Spear had a plasma cannon like you're talking about. It was a big slow moving piece of death...

In the campaign I'm working on I've reworked the balance a bit so normal fighter weapons do hardly any damage at all to cruisers and up. The Avenger (I'm calling it hi velocity) can damage cruisers decently, but ships can only carry a certain amount of ammo for it.

I say that as an example of how ammo using primaries could be "mixed in". As an interceptor pilot in my campaign, you can use an ammo primary which uses no energy. You are then free to divert energy away from weapons, but you will run out. Strategy, strategy, strategy.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Rodo on August 07, 2008, 09:19:01 pm
I remember playing cardinal spear.... omg that fraking bomber kept blowing up! the first wave of cruicers was fun but then the freaking vasudan fighters took me on and all of the squad in just a sec... and with no primaries surviving was an impposible task to acomplish.

But as always I got through it after 3 or 4 tries
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2008, 09:45:55 pm
Where this thread has gone makes me think about all the cool weapons we could have had in freespace but didn't get. (barring mods)

I'm not talking about uber keysers, but things like the following:

 a ship mounted beam cannon that pulses rapidly, bypasses shields, and does little damage. The attraction would be usefulness against shivans and their thick shielding. The accuracy would be so good that low damage and high power usage would be needed for balance.

A shield breaker secondary that has multiple warheads (like an inferno). That would be a bomber's worst nightmare since then your own bombs become lethal if they get intercepted close to your ship.

A heavy disruptor cannon that scrambles ships like the missile, but fires of one big bolt and uses like half your gun energy (I think of the ion cannon in the siege of hoth)

Primary bombs: Guns that use nearly all of your weapon energy in one big slow shot with crazy plasma animated gif graphics.
I've made all of those at different points in my life.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 07, 2008, 10:34:43 pm
Where this thread has gone makes me think about all the cool weapons we could have had in freespace but didn't get. (barring mods)

I'm not talking about uber keysers, but things like the following:

 a ship mounted beam cannon that pulses rapidly, bypasses shields, and does little damage. The attraction would be usefulness against shivans and their thick shielding. The accuracy would be so good that low damage and high power usage would be needed for balance.

A shield breaker secondary that has multiple warheads (like an inferno). That would be a bomber's worst nightmare since then your own bombs become lethal if they get intercepted close to your ship.

A heavy disruptor cannon that scrambles ships like the missile, but fires of one big bolt and uses like half your gun energy (I think of the ion cannon in the siege of hoth)

Primary bombs: Guns that use nearly all of your weapon energy in one big slow shot with crazy plasma animated gif graphics.
I've made all of those at different points in my life.

:lol:

You might have, because most of those weapons are available in separate mods through ~ + 9 and ~ + 0.

Ship Beam Cannon = Blue Planet, Fighter Beam
Shield Breaker Secondary = Inferno Release 1, A.S.R
Heavy Disruptor Cannon = Unknown
Primary Bombs = The Procyon Insurgency, Phalanx or TTurrets 1 to 3 (preferably 2)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 09, 2008, 02:33:06 am
Heavy Disruptor Cannon = Unknown
There are heavy Disruptor cannons mounted on the EACv Raiden in INF SCP, which disable fighters left and right, making them really annoying to attack.

(not that I'd know about this...)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 09, 2008, 02:47:18 am
I don't have INF SCP, so I don't know, but I'll take your word for it.

When it's released, I'll keep a lookout for that corvette. :)
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on August 10, 2008, 06:35:41 pm
I've found that after destroying every subsystem on a fighter with the Akehton, it self-destructs eventually. Or you can do ram attacks. As for stupid Alpha 2 in that TAG missile mission, she gets disabled, and all the Shivans are sitting there firing Ulysesly at her because she has ship gaurdian or something on, then as soon as reinforcments arrive, "aaaaaaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!"
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: colecampbell666 on August 10, 2008, 06:38:00 pm
Yeah, in the gauntlets in FS1, a trick is to disable one of the endless waves of Cruiser/Destroyer guards, and kill the rest. It stays for a few minutes, giving a respite from attack, but eventually self-destructs.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 10, 2008, 10:45:24 pm
I've found that after destroying every subsystem on a fighter with the Akehton, it self-destructs eventually. Or you can do ram attacks. As for stupid Alpha 2 in that TAG missile mission, she gets disabled, and all the Shivans are sitting there firing Ulysesly at her because she has ship gaurdian or something on, then as soon as reinforcments arrive, "aaaaaaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!"

I wonder what Alpha 2 was doing in A Game of TAG. When I told her to protect the Warspite, she flew back without using her afterburners, so she died because some Mara parked itself behind her and was happily blasting away at her rear. :wtf:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 11, 2008, 04:32:47 am
Wingmen are teh smex.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: colecampbell666 on August 11, 2008, 09:10:40 am
Yeah, when you tell them to C-3-7, thus escaping danger, they never use burners.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 11, 2008, 09:31:38 am
They hardly use their burners for anything. :mad:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 11, 2008, 09:33:17 am
They hardly use their burners for anything. :mad:
Except for flying into your field of fire, at which point they stop and stay put.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 11, 2008, 09:51:10 am
They hardly use their burners for anything. :mad:
Except for flying into your field of fire, at which point they stop and stay put.

...until you collide into them, upon which they fly off. :wtf:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 11, 2008, 10:18:19 am
...until you collide into them, upon which they fly off. :wtf:
Or if you use the Maxim-Kayser combo, they just get blown up. Then all the other wingmen go all pissy on you and turn red.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 11, 2008, 10:21:08 am
Or if you use the Maxim-Kayser combo, they just get blown up. Then all the other wingmen go all pissy on you and turn red.

...and fly circles around you until you restart the mission, abort, or blow them up.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Droid803 on August 11, 2008, 11:31:07 am
I hit them with dual trebs and kill them instantly.
Command and my other wingmen see that as an unfortunate accident, and proceed to do nothing about my team-killing :D
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on August 11, 2008, 08:34:32 pm
They do when flying towards a target 4000m away - well, sometimes. Or if you shoot them, an 0.50s burst is really going to save them if it was a real enemy...

They hardly use their burners for anything. :mad:
Except for flying into your field of fire, at which point they stop and stay put.

...until you collide into them, upon which they fly off. :wtf:

And in the chasing Iceni mission, they sit there colliding with each other until the enemy arrives. :doubt:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Snail on August 12, 2008, 01:00:26 am
Order all your wingmen to protect a Poseidon. Crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash kaboom.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 12, 2008, 05:03:43 am
Order all your wingmen to protect a Poseidon. Crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash kaboom.

:lol:

Or make all your wingmen invincible in Bearbaiting, complete the mission, disable invulnerability on all of them, use C-3-7 and fly about in circles. :drevil:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 12, 2008, 10:16:18 am
I wonder what Alpha 2 was doing in A Game of TAG. When I told her to protect the Warspite, she flew back without using her afterburners, so she died because some Mara parked itself behind her and was happily blasting away at her rear. :wtf:
She had rear feedback turned way up. :lol:

Order all your wingmen to protect a Poseidon. Crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash kaboom.
My wingmen tend to suicide 24/7, though I applaud their bravery when they e.g charge head first at an Aeolus.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Excalibur on August 13, 2008, 12:09:29 am
You order them to cover you when you are 1500m away from an enemy and they keep fighting.

Order all your wingmen to protect a Poseidon. Crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash kaboom.

:lol:

Or make all your wingmen invincible in Bearbaiting, complete the mission, disable invulnerability on all of them, use C-3-7 and fly about in circles. :drevil:

Just create a mission in FRED2 with 50 fighters and order them to cover you and fly around in circles. Then order them to all return to base to see a massive warpout. Or stay in exactly the same spot when you start the mission, order them to form on your wing and make a large square ship like an Orion warp in, just missing your rear by a few metres... :drevil:
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 13, 2008, 03:36:01 am
I think they're literally covering you, i.e, shielding you from enemy fire, missiles, bombs, beams and sunlight.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 13, 2008, 03:52:41 am
Or stay in exactly the same spot when you start the mission, order them to form on your wing and make a large square ship like an Orion warp in, just missing your rear by a few metres... :drevil:

How about a Sathanas? :drevil:

I think they're literally covering you, i.e, shielding you from enemy fire, missiles, bombs, beams and sunlight.

Well, the "Cover Me" command is basically the same as "Protect My Target", so what they do is fly circles around you. If they target you and see those dots indicating that an enemy is targeting you, they break and attack your attacker.
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Dilmah G on August 13, 2008, 09:36:16 am
Or stay in exactly the same spot when you start the mission, order them to form on your wing and make a large square ship like an Orion warp in, just missing your rear by a few metres... :drevil:

How about a Sathanas? :drevil:

I think they're literally covering you, i.e, shielding you from enemy fire, missiles, bombs, beams and sunlight.

Well, the "Cover Me" command is basically the same as "Protect My Target", so what they do is fly circles around you. If they target you and see those dots indicating that an enemy is targeting you, they break and attack your attacker.


How nice of them
Title: Re: The subach
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 14, 2008, 12:55:36 am
If you're moving, however, they'll fly in formation around you instead, which is almost the same as "Form On My Wing", only that they will pursue your attackers instead of flying at your speed and letting your enemies smoke them. :drevil: