Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: StarSlayer on December 14, 2008, 11:53:37 pm
-
Hey nice Squint, complements the Eyeball nicely. Considering that a Defender has the same "gun mounts" only they are labeled as the missile launchers they could be anything on the Squint even simple targeting sensors or the emitter for beam weapons. Personally I'm used to the standard 4 wing tip canons, thats how TIE Fighter did it and its worked pretty well so far.
-
That's part of the problem with the TIE Defender, it doesn't make any sense, at least not as it's identified in the reference materials. There's no way those should be missile launchers, the thing has no room for missiles. I think the Defender would have to be reimagined a bit more to be a viable ship and still have that kind of equipment, if we ever do have a Defender. This is definitely a nice job though.
-
I always figured that, other than the bombers, TIEs with missile launchers would need to have them integrated into the connecting struts between the ball cockpit and the solar panels. Those are fairly thick in places, and it's the only place that would have the room to spare.
-
I think the Defender could work if it looked like something other than a kitbash of a few TIE Interceptors.
-
The interceptor looks awesome! :yes:
But just say no to expanded universe TIEs. It's like they slap another panel on an interceptor and suddenly they're three times as good. The Advanced x1 design makes sense within the "lived-in" universe because it's significantly bulkier than normal TIEs, and you can imagine there's actually a better power plant, shield generators, hyperdrive, etc in there. But ships like the Defender/Avenger/Phantom/Aggressor/Hunter are just there to make for video games where blowing up Rebel ships is as easy as blowing up normal TIE fighters is for the rebels. It kills the natural order of survivability, makes the low-end fighters not even a threat, and it's poop. If you're gonna redesign one for gameplay purposes, though (like to give the empire an X-wing like, versatile-but-not-overpowered ship), I'd start with the x1 as a base rather than the interceptor. That's my rant.
Anyway, great job on both of these ships!
-
I'm a fan of the Defender. It's not like a good X-Wing pilot can't deal with them, but they are a real challenge. There are a whole bunch of other TIES though, real funky ones that i'm not sure i appreciate.
-
Now that I think of it, none of the SW Rebel fighters have space for the number of missiles they can canonically carry. I can't imagine how you can fit 12 concussion missiles into an A-wing.
-
Now that I think of it, none of the SW Rebel fighters have space for the number of missiles they can canonically carry. I can't imagine how you can fit 12 concussion missiles into an A-wing.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/38/CCS_A-wing.jpg)
Star Wars missiles are actually pretty small.
-
Yeah, but even that's too big to fit through that tiny little hole on the TIE. I'm really not sure where the idea that a Defender should look so much like a TIE Interceptor came from, there's plenty of art that shows a significant difference to that line of thought. On the Wookiee, a lot of the pics are drastically different in terms of the shape. Some wings look very close to the T/Is, while some are very differently shape. Same for the mounting pylons, and even the ball itself, it's not even a ball in some of the pictures. I agree with Shade about using the pylons for the missile launcher, but the shape would have to be completely different from the other TIEs. For one it would have to actually look like there is a missile launcher on it. In other words, this is no good:
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/41/TIE_Defender_SotG.jpg)
I'm thinking something more like:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/82/Defender3.jpg)
But with a bit more detail behind the cockpit. The lower one looks a lot more like the Defender from TIE Fighter, with its wing shape and ball design, although I don't know where they got the big block behind the cockpit from, but it could be made to look better than the support structures from other TIEs:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg)
Crap I just realized how off topic we're getting, here Brand is making purdy TIE Fighters and Interceptors and we're babbling on about one of them he doesn't even really like :(
-
I'm a fan of the Defender. It's not like a good X-Wing pilot can't deal with them, but they are a real challenge.
[Hot Shots 2]You're joking! You've got to be![/Hot Shots 2]
Player piloted x-wing, one on one with a Defender (from X-wing Alliance) shouldn't be too much trouble, but versus 2 would be a very unfavourable outcome, for me anyway on hard.
There's one mission in Alliance where, I think you have to destroy the sensor outpost for the Liberty to escape, and in the end a wing of 3 Defender's jumps in. 99% of the time they'll splash your wing in seconds and while you're still dealing with one you'll be toasted by the other two. Bloody impossible.
-
Ok, I admit that not all of the EU TIEs are awful, though certainly none of them compare to the beauties in the above post. The thing that would make me sad is an EU TIE completely replacing the interceptor as the preferred imperial fighter for multiplayer or whenever you had the choice in single... I mean, the Alliance has 4 fighters that are all viable choices with varying strengths and vulnerabilities, whereas a TIE with the type of capabilities that the Defender or Avenger has would just one-up the interceptor in every way (except looks), making the sweetest imp fighter effectively a handicap. I'd even be in favor of giving the standard TIE Fighter a very slight edge in turning speed over the interceptor just so that it had something to recommend it, in the same way that the BtrL MkII was definitely an inferior ship to the VII, but had that one little quality that made it tempting. Anyway, sorry to keep sticking my nose in. The ships really do look great!
-
I think it comes down to rarity, the Imperials can certainly build better fighters then the Rebellion, however, their overall mindset (cheap expendable screens for capitals) and competing service branches (fleet vs. fighter command) means they don't invest in them. I don't think fighters like the Avenger and Defender need to be excluded, just that they are extremely rare. Really even elite units like the 181st hardly ever deploy with them, if you make them available only for critical missions then i don't think you would need to worry about neglect for Eyeballs and Squints. Same goes for the E Wing and perhaps the B Wing, if they aren't available 90% of the time people will be content with the X Wing and Bone. Thats my 2 cents anyway; back on topic. Thats an lovely shot brand, those TIEs are pure sex.
-
Also, there are supposedly X-wing variants (not talking about blasphemous X-J wings or anything) that increased the X-Wing's speed and maneuverability. If we incorporate those (say, getting a shipment in the middle of a campaign) it could definitely even the odds against a Defender a little.
-
Um, wasn't the Defender supposed to be the only TIE that had shields or something like that? Or am I thinking of still another EU TIE variant?
-
No, the TIE Avenger (called TIE Advanced in the X-wing series of games) also had shields. You may mean that the TIE Defender would be the only TIE with ion cannons. I'm not sure if the T/D is the only TIE with ions, though.
-
IDEA:
Imperial Fighter relative stats, and relative rebel matchup
TIE fighter (best turning, decent everything else, no sheilds) balanced with Z-95
TIE interceptor (slightly less turning, beter speed and firepower) balanced with X-wing
TIE bomber (weaker turning than fighter, more health and powerful loadout (balanced with Y-wing, B-wing)
now for a 4th it is rather tricky
2 options:
TIE advanced (A wing stats, but better sheilds, few warheads)
-or-
Assualt Gunboat (good warheads, x-wing turning, y-wing speed, lasers and ion cannons)
-
I'm a fan of the Defender. It's not like a good X-Wing pilot can't deal with them, but they are a real challenge.
[Hot Shots 2]You're joking! You've got to be![/Hot Shots 2]
Player piloted x-wing, one on one with a Defender (from X-wing Alliance) shouldn't be too much trouble, but versus 2 would be a very unfavourable outcome, for me anyway on hard.
There's one mission in Alliance where, I think you have to destroy the sensor outpost for the Liberty to escape, and in the end a wing of 3 Defender's jumps in. 99% of the time they'll splash your wing in seconds and while you're still dealing with one you'll be toasted by the other two. Bloody impossible.
No it isn't; you just apparently don't know what you're doing. :p You know what I take to fight TIE Defenders? A B-wing. Sure, it's slower and less maneuverable, but it's forward firepower will chew a Defender to shreds in the initial head-to-head, and the AI isn't smart enough to avoid charging straight down your guns no matter which one you use.
-
Thanks MR_T3D but I think we plan on doing something a little different than a ship for ship balance, this isn't Warcraft 2 or anything. There may be ships with similar roles on both sides (scout, heavy fighter, interceptor) but there's no reason they have to be able to go 1:1 with each other. If a TIE Fighter can avoid a head on with a Z he'll probably win every time. Z's have to take advantage of the fact that they have any shields at all and fly like the dickens. Even an X-Wing will have a hard time shaking an expert TIE Fighter pilot once we get it set up right.
-
Thanks MR_T3D but I think we plan on doing something a little different than a ship for ship balance, this isn't Warcraft 2 or anything. There may be ships with similar roles on both sides (scout, heavy fighter, interceptor) but there's no reason they have to be able to go 1:1 with each other. If a TIE Fighter can avoid a head on with a Z he'll probably win every time. Z's have to take advantage of the fact that they have any shields at all and fly like the dickens. Even an X-Wing will have a hard time shaking an expert TIE Fighter pilot once we get it set up right.
My thoughts exactly.
IMHO for an Imperial Campaign to correctly work some sort of formation flying AI should be made by SCP. I already wrote about this quite a while ago when somebody requested AI 'tactics'.
When flying Imp fighters you'd actually need to "bracket" your enemy, and maintain some sort of formation. This would also keep with the "Timothy Zahn established canon" of Imps using elaborate formations.
-
Considering that you can already order AI to your wing, it may just be a slight tweaking of precedence needed. Maybe Imps have a lower tendency to break and attack without orders.
-
Considering that you can already order AI to your wing, it may just be a slight tweaking of precedence needed. Maybe Imps have a lower tendency to break and attack without orders.
That's exactly the wrong kind of behavior. What's needed is for the fighters to be aware of separation. Bracketing means putting half a click of separation between combatants. This forces the target to engage the formation one ship at a time. Meanwhile the separation allows the others to get in his rear, as he's no longer on a face-to-face heading.
Another thing that's badly needed is pointman-wingman mechanics. Namely, only the wingman should peel off to fend off attackers so the pointman can finish his attack run.
-
Was the Avenger the funky looking one with the rectangular solar panels on it that had a chunk out of them like an interceptor that I remember seeing playing Rogue Squadron in the mission with the World Devastators?
-
Was the Avenger the funky looking one with the rectangular solar panels on it that had a chunk out of them like an interceptor that I remember seeing playing Rogue Squadron in the mission with the World Devastators?
no, those were the TIE-Ds with droid pilots.
The Avenger is the line that Darth Vader's tie comes from, AKA the TIE X-1 Advanced.
-
But Vader's craft didn't have any shields, or he wouldn't have been disabled by his wingman impacting with him in A New Hope. OTOH, it's clear that particular craft was a prototype, combining a standard TIE fighter with TIE Bomber solar panels, so...
-
You'd still reel from the impact with shields up. He wasn't disabled, he was thrown out of control. By the time he recovered, obviously there was nothing he could do.
-
Hrm. The Zhan trilogy books said that his fighter was disabled and he was picked up later nearly dead. Then again Mara Jade also said that was when he lost his right hand (Not from the impact or anything, but from the Emperor's displeasure), but that's been expressly contradicted on screen now. He lost his right hand in a fight with Dooku BEFORE he became Vader.
-
No it isn't; you just apparently don't know what you're doing. :p You know what I take to fight TIE Defenders? A B-wing. Sure, it's slower and less maneuverable, but it's forward firepower will chew a Defender to shreds in the initial head-to-head, and the AI isn't smart enough to avoid charging straight down your guns no matter which one you use.
RP putting a smiley face after an insult still makes it an insult. And clearly you didn't read anything I said.
I said when flying an X-Wing. I wasn't asking for what ship could beat a Tie-D, I was mentioning how it destroyed X-Wings. And to respond to your tactics, the B-Wing might well be sound advice, I'll have to take your word for it as I've not flown them much. However, while I can see it making things easier in a head on run, the Defender, on paper, will still win. It's got quad laser and ion versus the b-wings triple laser/ion and it's got equal shields. It also has close to 1.5 times the B-Wing's speed and that plus its hugh manouverability advantage means it'll run rings around the B-wing.
I dunno what difficulty level you play on but it sounds like easy. Granted, the AI never fires at MAX range but it's got precision accuracy (the kind that makes you think you're being cheated) on hard so even if you survive the head on run against one you'll be damaged enough to have no chance against the other two.
But anyways
Yeah I'd always wanted a X-Wing MK2 to combat the defenders. X-wings with the power-plants, shield generators, ion cannons and larger engines, from decommisioned Y-Wings. But then as you say, defenders are extremely rare so it was too much of an issue.
-
I can safely say that not many people have flown anything that flies like the ships that will be in this game, so inferring characteristics of these ships from previous games isn't really constructive, especially not in this thread. Use the afterburners thread for that kind of talk.
And just to pour fuel on the fire anyway, the B-Wing's single R-9X is designed to f*** up capital ships. You don't want to be going head on against that thing, between the autoblasters and the ions, and that giant freaking laser cannon. It's like the A-10's Vulcan, but slow.
-
I can safely say that not many people have flown anything that flies like the ships that will be in this game, so inferring characteristics of these ships from previous games isn't really constructive, especially not in this thread. Use the afterburners thread for that kind of talk.
yeah thanks for raping my thread for your flame wars :P
-
Was the Avenger the funky looking one with the rectangular solar panels on it that had a chunk out of them like an interceptor that I remember seeing playing Rogue Squadron in the mission with the World Devastators?
no, those were the TIE-Ds with droid pilots.
The Avenger is the line that Darth Vader's tie comes from, AKA the TIE X-1 Advanced.
Isn't what he described this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/ad_starfighter
Thats the good ole TIE Advanced to me...although apparently its now TIE/ad or TIE Avenger. So many names.
-
No the fighter CaptJosh is describing is this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter) its an Imperial droid starfighter utilized by the forces of the cloned Emperor in the Dark Horse comics. You had to fight them in the World Devastator mission in the first Rogue Squadron game.
-
No it isn't; you just apparently don't know what you're doing. :p You know what I take to fight TIE Defenders? A B-wing. Sure, it's slower and less maneuverable, but it's forward firepower will chew a Defender to shreds in the initial head-to-head, and the AI isn't smart enough to avoid charging straight down your guns no matter which one you use.
RP putting a smiley face after an insult still makes it an insult. And clearly you didn't read anything I said.
I said when flying an X-Wing. I was asking for what ship could beat a Tie-D, I was mentioning how it destroyed X-Wings. And to respond to your tactics, the B-Wing might well be sound advice, I'll have to take your word for it as I've not flown them much. However, while I can see it making things easier in a head on run, the Defender, on paper, will still win. It's got quad laser and ion versus the b-wings triple laser/ion and it's got equal shields. It also has close to 1.5 times the B-Wing's speed and that plus its hugh manouverability advantage means it'll run rings around the B-wing.
I dunno what difficulty level you play on but it sounds like easy. Granted, the AI never fires at MAX range but it's got precision accuracy (the kind that makes you think you're being cheated) on hard so even if you survive the head on run against one you'll be damaged enough to have no chance against the other two.
An X-wing can also beat a TIE Defender; you just have to know all the ins and outs of it and fly like hell. I have never had any trouble with the mission you name. And I never play on Easy. If you're flying anything other than a B-wing or Y-wing (both of which are considerably tougher than an X-wing or any TIE model, though the Y-wing has enough disadvantages for it to not really make a difference), just don't accept the head-to-head, because the Defender will win. Spiral in until you're in the furball so that they don't get a kilometer of free shooting at you; you have a better chance that way if you're not in a bomber.
Is it fast? Sure it is. The trick is that the X-Wing games, one and all, have a feature where your maneuverability is greatly increased at 1/3 throttle. Judicious use of throttle controls lets you cut inside the Defender's turns and still stay right on its tail.
Oh, and quad lasers and two ions is at a distinct disadvantage against three and three because it has half the fire rate when you link them all together. :D
-
Also, whoever uploaded that picture to the TIE Avenger page ****ed up. They uploaded a regular TIE Interceptor image.
-
I'm glad to see that this thread has become a discussion about the game mechanics of the X-Wing series. Please take it to a new thread
-
Somehow, all FotG threads end up that way.
-
No the fighter CaptJosh is describing is this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter) its an Imperial droid starfighter utilized by the forces of the cloned Emperor in the Dark Horse comics. You had to fight them in the World Devastator mission in the first Rogue Squadron game.
Aha...wasn't too familiar with that model. I had heard about the droid TIE's ...but didn't know what their looks were.
-
Anyone who flies a Defender or an Avenger is a pansy anyway.
Real Imperial pilots fly basic Tie Fighters.
Though the Gunboat's not too bad. (The missile boat on the other hand is full-on gay)
If a person wants some extra TIE fighters, what about the funnies from Tie Fighter. Or was it X-Wing Alliance. I don't remember, but there was one with some funny TIEs like one was a Tie Interceptor with missile pods outside the wings. And another was like a single Solar panel with pods to either side, one of which held a big cannon of some sort. Those were suitably crappy.
-
Anyone who flies a Defender or an Avenger is a pansy anyway.
Real Imperial pilots fly basic Tie Fighters.
Though the Gunboat's not too bad. (The missile boat on the other hand is full-on gay)
If a person wants some extra TIE fighters, what about the funnies from Tie Fighter. Or was it X-Wing Alliance. I don't remember, but there was one with some funny TIEs like one was a Tie Interceptor with missile pods outside the wings. And another was like a single Solar panel with pods to either side, one of which held a big cannon of some sort. Those were suitably crappy.
The Avenger I always considered to be the Imperial version of the X-Wing...a bit better yes but it was the first ship in TIE Fighter that could truly stand toe to toe with the Rebel fighters. Enjoy your unshielded TIE Fighter while I protect my virtual life investment with some proper shielding :D
-
Anyone who flies a Defender or an Avenger is a pansy anyway.
Real Imperial pilots fly basic Tie Fighters.
Though the Gunboat's not too bad. (The missile boat on the other hand is full-on gay)
The Avenger I always considered to be the Imperial version of the X-Wing...a bit better yes but it was the first ship in TIE Fighter that could truly stand toe to toe with the Rebel fighters. Enjoy your unshielded TIE Fighter while I protect my virtual life investment with some proper shielding :D
I dunno, if you watch the movies the TIE Fighters give as good as they got it seems to me. At best it seems the shields allow the Rebs to take one or two extra hits before being blasted into pieces. With the exception of the Falcon of course which takes full on ISD blasts and keeps on trucking.
The Avenger isn't _that_ pansy, but the Defender certainly is. When I finally got the Tie Collector's CD, I really tried to finish the game but it just got so stupid with the fancy ships. Last mission I gave up on was some "Missile Boat destroying an entire Rebel fleet" mission. Some people throw similar missions in their FS2 campaigns but I always find them pretty damn boring.
-
Anyone who flies a Defender or an Avenger is a pansy anyway.
Real Imperial pilots fly basic Tie Fighters.
Though the Gunboat's not too bad. (The missile boat on the other hand is full-on gay)
The Avenger I always considered to be the Imperial version of the X-Wing...a bit better yes but it was the first ship in TIE Fighter that could truly stand toe to toe with the Rebel fighters. Enjoy your unshielded TIE Fighter while I protect my virtual life investment with some proper shielding :D
I dunno, if you watch the movies the TIE Fighters give as good as they got it seems to me. At best it seems the shields allow the Rebs to take one or two extra hits before being blasted into pieces. With the exception of the Falcon of course which takes full on ISD blasts and keeps on trucking.
The Avenger isn't _that_ pansy, but the Defender certainly is. When I finally got the Tie Collector's CD, I really tried to finish the game but it just got so stupid with the fancy ships. Last mission I gave up on was some "Missile Boat destroying an entire Rebel fleet" mission. Some people throw similar missions in their FS2 campaigns but I always find them pretty damn boring.
The most interesting bits of the TIE Fighter campaigns for me were the TIE Advanced (Avenger/whatever you want to call it) and the Gunboat. The Missile Boat was pretty easy...the challenge in those missions was to hit the right targets otherwise friendlies would be lost pretty quickly.
In the movies there were lots and lots of TIE Fighters against seemingly far fewer Rebel fighters which is consistent with whats been said about the fighter over the years. The idea is to build lots and lots of cheap throwaway star fighters and the TIE does a good job of being that. Has the most minimal amounts of everything and gets away with it by being available in large numbers.
-
Technically, in the first movie the TIE Pilots were well outnumbered.
-
Technically, in the first movie the TIE Pilots were well outnumbered.
Is it ever said how many TIEs the Death Star launches? I remember the command centre says something about a second group of ships, heading your way yadda yadda. That being said, the Turbolaser towers should count for something. Plus what do you need TIEs for when the Rebels got people like Porkins who are just going to fly into a building anyway.
-
32 Rebel fighters, 8 Imperial. The Death star didn't launch any fighters but vader ordered his personal squadron out there (Black squadron, which only had 8 pilots).
-
Technically, in the first movie the TIE Pilots were well outnumbered.
I don't know...see the movie seems to have the abridged version of the battle. The novelization has a much longer more intense version of the battle which was more interesting and there were many more Rebel and Empire squadrons fighting it out.
-
32 vs 8 isn't just from looking at what is shown on screen, it's confirmed as canon from other background info as well
-
Is that counting Vader? I believe the movie shows 3 groups of 3. 2 groups of 3 Ties and one group of 2 Ties and Vader.
-
yeah, vader counts as, like, 20TIES or something
BTW: wasn't theis derailed TIE-int thread supposed to be about TIE/Defenders
(prefer the idea of bulkier fighter, to make sense, but mishmashed ints look good aswell
-
Yep, sorry folks, I got a bit carried away. RP, you sound like you know what you're on about so we'll leave it at that.
And for my on topic contribution; was it really 8 vs 32? How do the other sources account for the Rebs getting pasted? I know that, in the films at least, fighter sized deflectors don't seem to count for much but it still seems like a huge advantage. Is it just marked up to the fact that a whole death star is shooting at the Rebs as well?
Obviously from the previous ranting, I take most of my Star Wars fighter mechanics from the games so how is it supposed to work? Or how do you guys envision it working? Do all Tie models run rings around rebel fighters? Or are you attempting (successfully?) to bring flight positioning into the mix? Or just Vader?
And finally, are all shielded fighters going to be easy to hit targets? For instance in the X-Wing series of games, unshielded Tie Fighter/Interceptor and even Bomber to some degree, are vastly more difficult to hit than shielded craft. Which I though was far too unbalanced. But what really freaked me out was that when your shields failed, unless you took all charge from them, any hit to your shields that wouldn't have even charged back to 1%, would be transfered completely to your hull, which basically maded shielded fighters death traps.
I'd guess that whether this happens or not will be a feature of the Freespace engine, but I can't remember how it works in retail. Please tell me the above wont be the case.
-
Considering this was only split because it went off topic in the first place, going off topic here is completely allowed, and I'll just update the subject to '2nd most misleading subject ever' if it gets that bad.
-
Awwww, and I was getting all ready to fire up FRAPS and go take on unlimited waves of 3 TIE/Ds for five minutes and see how many I could get. :D
-
Considering this was only split because it went off topic in the first place, going off topic here is completely allowed, and I'll just update the subject to '2nd most misleading subject ever' if it gets that bad.
If it gets even worse then the other topic will you switch this names around so you can really confuse everyone? :D
-
*facepalm*
To think this started during a discussion of the Squint's weaponry when I used the Defender as an example of a craft that used its "hull laser mounts" for something other then the regular Eyeball.
-
Ok, let's see if I can post anything relevant...
I agree that the TIE-D was wayyyyyy too overpowered. But it was nice for those times when you didn't want to worry about dying or anything silly.
In my opinion, the Interceptor was the premier main-line Imperial fighter. It was fast, powerful, and plentiful.
The standard TIE-Fighter always seemed like a deathtrap, TIE-Bomber too.
I guess the best way to stay alive in those is to command your AI wingmates to go in first, and then sneak in around behind your target :)
-
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/38/CCS_A-wing.jpg)
It looks like they'd have to cut off the guys head in order for him to pilot that thing...
-
Nah it's just built like a race car. The entire thing is built to just barely contain the pilot
-
*facepalm*
To think this started during a discussion of the Squint's weaponry when I used the Defender as an example of a craft that used its "hull laser mounts" for something other then the regular Eyeball.
No worries...I think people like to talk about the Empire's ultimate starfighters. I'm a huge fan of the TIE "Avenger" as I said earlier...in any case the TIE Fighter games I think were a huge influence on space sim folks like all of us so its not surprising people like to talk about it.
When I was talking to the Volition guys about the FreeSpace games I remember a couple of them saying that when they sat down and decided on what they wanted to make...they wanted to basically do something that was as good as TIE Fighter and blending the game styles of Wing Commander, TIE Fighter, and any of the other space sim classics together into something spectacular.
So with TIE Fighter being so memorable and the ships it had being such classics now...not surprising people like to discuss them...allot :)
-
what if sheilds are only good for absorbing one good laser hit...or two.
THAT would make balance easier :pimp:
-
In order for the balancing issues to be addressed for the Defender (I actually would rather not see it at all, the Avenger is passable, but the Interceptors equipped with shields would be the best way to go, in the vein of TIE Fighters later campaigns.) the best way to go would be to have the speed take heavy hits when powering either the lasers or shields. There's no way a power core that can fit within a TIE is possibly going to be able to have the kind of output to maintain recharge rates and blazing engine speeds (I don't subscribe to the "solar panel" wings idea). Essentially, say you were to go for max recharge for the weapons, well that beast has 4 laser and 2 ion cannons,the speed I thing should be dropped to around par with the Interceptors speed. (Mind that I've got the XWA speeds in mind here).
But again, bleh to the Defender, it's just too ridiculous (the design is badass though).
-
what if sheilds are only good for absorbing one good laser hit...or two.
THAT would make balance easier :pimp:
In keeping with the "movie" accuracy this mod is going for, I wouldn't expect starfighter shields to absorb fire like they do in other sims, nor for them to be completely nerfed (Luke and Wedge both shrug off direct hits at Yavin, though they clearly cause problems for both fighters)...Shield balance is mentioned directly a few times in the trilogy, so it should hopefully still be a significant factor in surviving a fight. As for the Defender, I like the idea of slowing it down, and I'd like to see it taken further (say original TIE fighter speed). That would both balance out its excellent armament/shielding and give it a reason to not be called the TIE Attacker (other than that sounding stupid).
-
I always felt the TIE/D, like the Assault Gunboat were designed by LucasArts for one purpose, which was to give a player a ship to fly in Mission that could actually take more than a couple of hits. I loathed flying the T/B for example, but I still consider it one of the best TIEs regardless because it did exactly what it said on the tin.
-
It's the Empire, builder of 14km long warships, super laser toting battlestations and world eating factories. They can certainly build a fighter better then the rebels, they just choose not to. I think the balancing for the Avenger and Defender centers on the fact that they are extremely rare. A rebel pilot's got about as much a chance at getting struck by lighting as finding himself in a dogfight with one of them. Even the 181st, the Empire's elite fighter wing almost never deploys with them. A simple solution would only have them appear once or twice in the campaign, and available in only a few multi missions and/or have a host option to exclude them. Besides the Ewing needs something to play with.
-
I think the big thing with the Defender is that the TIE Fighters are shown to pretty much only take one or two hits to kill regardless, while the rebel ships could take a variable number more (some went down in one hit, others in 5-6)
So in the games, they knew the rebels would be the protagonists, and roughly tripled that number to the number of laser blasts the fighter could absorb.
Then TIE Fighter came around, and they had two options: One, nerf the rebels, or superboost the Imps. Everyone knew a TIE Fighter couldn't withstand a couple dozen laser blasts, so they invented newer and bigger fighters that could, and used some handwavium as to why they were built. Hence why I hate the Defender and Assault Gunboat, they make no sense whatsoever in the Star Wars univers (The Avenger is at least based on Vader's tie.)
-
It's the Empire, builder of 14km long warships, super laser toting battlestations and world eating factories. They can certainly build a fighter better then the rebels, they just choose not to. I think the balancing for the Avenger and Defender centers on the fact that they are extremely rare. A rebel pilot's got about as much a chance at getting struck by lighting as finding himself in a dogfight with one of them. Even the 181st, the Empire's elite fighter wing almost never deploys with them. A simple solution would only have them appear once or twice in the campaign, and available in only a few multi missions and/or have a host option to exclude them. Besides the Ewing needs something to play with.
I think you hit it dead on there. The Empire relied on crushing military superiority, but that wasn't enough; they needed psychological superiority too. 14km warships that you didn't have a prayer to sink, battlestations that could vaporize you as soon as scan you, factories that could suck up the ground you stood on and build a ship to shoot you with, hordes of fighters that would make you shake in your flight suit.
Why weren't TIEs frightening in the games? Because you only faced 2-20 at a time. If you came up against a full Star Destroyer's worth (72 fighters and bombers (http://"http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter_wing#Imperial_Navy")), you'd know fear, and probably get wiped out in the deal.
And that's why the Empire works that way, instead of producing and fielding a single squadron of TIE/Ds for the same price: Defenders would have the combat superiority, but not the psychological aspect. Gunships, Defenders, and Avengers were probably rare and only for the "special" missions that you couldn't send a Star Destroyer on, and that you didn't need to intimidate everyone.
Edit: It occurred to me that we've been saying this several times already in various places in this forum, but here it is again, hopefully a little more concise.
-
Let's not forget the Rebel starfighters already took hits from strayfire from the turbolasers of the Death Star I, II and so on. That's why they went down so fast in 1 or 2 hits. Shields are able to withstand a lot of punishment i.e. Obi-Wan's starfighter in Episode II or the Millenium Falcon (TESB) or the N-1 Naboo Fighter and should be able to endure a lot more than 1 or 2 direct hits. I would say the X-Wing games give a good estimation of shield strength. Sady the FS2 engine cannot distinguish between straight and straight (shield) hits.
Since the rate of fire in SWC is alot higher or varies depending on laser/weapon/damage type it shouldn't be a issue of destroying a craft quickly. I wish only the AI on the harder difficulty settings wouldn't habe a godlike aim, so battles endure much longer (ie much more maneuvering) but still keep the fiery action of the harder difficulties.
As for the overpowered Imperial craft, I would just tweak their properties and give them a few weaknesses, ie for the Defender a weaker hull, greater weapon energy consumption and slower shield recharging rate, a higher rotdamp... but retain their characteristic abilities of high speed, maneuverability and high firepower.
-
Let's not forget the Rebel starfighters already took hits from strayfire from the turbolasers of the Death Star I, II and so on. That's why they went down so fast in 1 or 2 hits. Shields are able to withstand a lot of punishment i.e. Obi-Wan's starfighter in Episode II or the Millenium Falcon (TESB) or the N-1 Naboo Fighter and should be able to endure a lot more than 1 or 2 direct hits. I would say the X-Wing games give a good estimation of shield strength. Sady the FS2 engine cannot distinguish between straight and straight (shield) hits.
Well, the idea behind the Death Star attack was that their fighters evaded the turbolasers...I think if any of those double-barreled box-tower beasts landed a direct hit on a fighter, he'd be as dead as Porkins no matter how he had his shields configured. As for the Falcon, it is many times more massive than the fighters being discussed, and the only direct hit we see on it from a cap ship obliterates the rear deflector, leaving it defenseless (according to C-3PO). Even strafing runs from relatively weak TIEs caused power failures and for crap to explode inside it in ANH, so fighter shields can't possibly be as manly as the TG games give them credit for. Also, in the X-wing games, you had to practically park your interceptor behind a Y-wing and launch a ridiculous number of shots into it before it went. It's not that it wasn't fun, and it worked for the slow pacing, but it didn't exactly make for a movie-accurate representation of SW space combat.
-
Also, the Empire had access to almost limitless resources and troops, thanks to cloning, the Emperor would certainly care more about achieving his objectives than keeping his pilots alive, if 20 bombers went in, launched all their missiles, and got destroyed, but took out their target, that was a victory from the point of view of the Empire.
Basically, as far as it's starfighter fleet was concerned, the Empire believed in quantity over quality.
-
The idea that the Imperial forces were a bunch of clones is a bunch of prequel shenanigans and should be considered null and void :P
-
LOL :p
Normally, I'd agree about many minor factors of the prequels, but since the Clone Wars were mentioned in Episode 4 by Leia in her transmission to Obi-Wan, and the fact that people were saying all the troopers were clones before the prequels came out, that one is, to my mind, at least partially true.
I'd suggest that your 'box standard' Stormtroopers were mostly clones, but even they lacked the innovation and inventiveness required, that's why the commanders and others were generally not clones. Possibly by that stage, the number of Clones was reducing, but I'd still suggest that a large bulk of Imperial forces were clones.
Either way, I still don't see the Emperor actually caring about his troops to any extent, in fact, as a Sith, I suspect he'd be rather pleased to see thousands of 'normal' people dying in his service.
-
Oh there certainly was a Clone Wars I just tend to think it was drastically different (and better) then the pile of Bantha dung Lucas served us :P Really if the Empire just had massive cloning vats spitting out Fett stormies and Baron Fel pilots they could have easily just curb stomped the Rebellion. If the Empire's forces were clone based where would the Rebellion have gotten all its defectors from? What would be the point of having military academy planets like Carrida? I really think having the Republic having the Clone forces in the prequels was extremely foolish since it basically screws up much of the universe. Zhan's Dark Force trilogy set a much better precedent of having cloning be a major taboo after the clone wars. It set the expectation to me at least that the Clone Wars was the Old Republic verse a bunch of clone masters with clone armies driven mad by the force. That certainly would have been a proper galaxy devastating conflict that set the stage for the Empire's rise, and why the spaarti cylinders the Emperor squirreled away at Wayland would have been the type of technology that was such a boon to Thrawn.
(I'm not sure if i should feel proud we are derailing a previously derailed and spit topic)
-
The cloning was just a method to recruit a great army in little time for starting a war in palpatines favor. After Episode 3 Palpi ceased to make clones and started to recruit ordinary people into the Imperial Navy (the Academy Luke wanted to go to).
By the time of the Old Republic Palpi couldn't secretly recruit for his war a la ("WE WANT YOU") and frankly didn't had the time for doing so. Cloning was the best choice but thus sacrifing individuality and creativity of his cloned troops.
We saw turbolasers or at least ordinary laser cannons from the Death Star's surface impacting the X-Wings shields (those little white flashes).
Of couse if a turbolaser hit a fighter directly, it would be gone. But that shouldn't be true for stray shots (the lasershot hitting the shields in an angle greater 0%). This can be compared with the Fresnel equation in technical optics.
And as I said before... semi-strong shields are easily overcome by rapid fire or greater power depending on laser type in SWC.
-
um... i think battlefront 2 explains the un-universal cloning rather well: the kamino clone revolted, so the empire chose to diversify their forces, multiple types of clones, even volenteers.
-
The Zahn book 'Allegiance' provides a pretty good view of the imperial army, IMO.
-
I seem to recall the problem with cloning mentioned in the Zahn books was regarding growing them at high speed, not simply the fact of growing them? The Force wouldn't allow it, that was why those anti-force creatures were used to nullify it around the cloning vats? Which was, iirc, how Zahn explained the lack of clones later in the Empire's life, because one batch was grown, but it would take years to grow more?
-
Yeah it was something about how the force seemed to think that clones like that were the same being, and wouldn't allow the same being to exist twice or somesuch
-
at the least, far better than the prequels.
No, allegiance is set a couple months after ANH, and is about a group of stormtroopers that decide to go AWOL. Mara Jade is also in it, and Luke, Leia, Hand and the gang make up the 3rd storyline.
-
Yeah it was something about how the force seemed to think that clones like that were the same being, and wouldn't allow the same being to exist twice or somesuch
Back in the days when the Force was the Force and not a symbiotic parasite is your blood stream.
I stopped reading EU after the Yushan Vong showed up :P but I'll give allegiance a shot.
-
It wasn't that it wouldn't allow. It was that growing a copy without Ysalmiri around had to take time--minimum time was 5 years, more preferable--or the force resonance with the original would warp the mind of the clone, making it insane, as witnessed by Joruus C'boath, the clone of the original Jorus C'boath.
-
Aha! I knew it was something to do with limiting time, it's been around a decade since I read those books ;)
-
Even without the ysalamiri, growing a clone safely wasn't the 5 or six years of the prequels, it was just 6 months. It is interesting that in Allegiance Zahn retcons to imply that both sides in the clone wars had clones, and the particular group of stormtroopers it concentrates on are some of the first non-clone stormtroopers. I get the idea that in the clone wars, just one planet (the Spaarti) managed to almost conquer the republic, by using clones. At least Zahn and Lucas agree over one thing, Palpatine was acquiring troops before the clone wars, just Zahn had him doing it on the fringes of known space (how he recruited Thrawn).
-
Well maybe in the future at some point they will re imagine the prequels and let Zhan take the clone masters vs the Republic route :D
-
whats the topic again? :drevil:
-
It's about whatever you want it it be. :P
-
As long as it's not related to the TIE Defender, because that would be inconsistent with the thread's title.
-
Ohh, I see what you did there. *taps nose*