Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Coolhand1980 on February 11, 2009, 11:21:52 pm
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What would you have done different in the FS2 campaign? What tactics would you have employed to defeat the Shivans if at all posible? What could a smart command have accomplished differently than what played out in the regular campaign?
Personally, I would have directed the fighters to spam EMP missles on shivan cap ships while Terran capships pound them to dust with beams. I would have ordered all terslasher beams to be upgraded to regular beams.
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Arrays of SSGs around the nodes especially the Knossos. Anything coming through gets vaporized or severely damaged before it even has a chance to fire a beam. Of course a few destroyers in the area for backup never hurts and they keep a constant fighter patrols to knock out enemy fighters/bombers before they can disable the SSGs.
Oh and the one I still believe the GTVA probably did: A second Colossus. Standard procedure why build one when you can build 2 at 3 times the cost?
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1. Deploy Alpha 1
2. ?????
3. PROFIT!
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He said what would you have done differently. Deploying Alpha 1 is not different.
On the other hand you plan just might work if we: CLONE ALPHA 1
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1. Put Alpha 1 in charge of the Colossus.
2. ?????
3. Win war.
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If alpha 1 was in the colossus it would have died way sooner, because A1 WASENT there to take out the 3\4 or 4\4 beam cannons on the sathy.
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Well, first of all I would sent the idiot who gave the Colossus firepower far less than its size would suggest out an airlock. Another thing I would do would be to create coordinated attacks between different capship formations with one expendable ship or group of ships relaying targeting data to a larger main force that would ambush the Shivan formation's rear.
A third would be to retire the GTF Myrmidon and replace it with the Perseus as quickly as possible.
Other decisions:
-Replace existing blob turrets with upgraded models similar to modern fighter cannons.
-Retire the Subach HL-7 and Prometheus R and reinstate the Avenger in their place.
-Develop new Terran cruiser classses specializing in AAA for use as convoy escorts. Retire the Fenris, Leviathan, and Aten.
-Refine and miniaturize the TAG missile technology to create rockets that can expose stealth fighters and keep them on radar for several minutes at least. Of course, the Shivans don't seem to have stealth fighters, but it's better to be safe than sorry.
-Recall existing Serapis fighters and upgrade their shields, and reassign them to space superiority roles.
-Create true interceptors to fill the role of the GTF Valkyrie and GVF Horus after reassigning the Perseus and upgraded Serapis to space superiority. Keep the Valkyrie and Horus in active duty as an interim solution.
-Reinstate the Chronos in active service if it truly is retired and not just a ship that was in service in FS2 and simply not seen.
-Retire the GVB Osiris.
-Deploy Mjolnirs in large numbers whever a blockade is set up.
-Deploy Sekhmets instead of Bakhas against the Sathanas.
Maybe I should apply for GTVA fleet R&D chief instead?
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Deactivate and disassemble or demolish the portal to Nebula the first time you got the chance. Shivans are trouble, you can research the bloody thing somewhere else if you want but there's shivans on the other side and you might want to keep them there.
If keeping the portal open is of utmost importance, heavily fortify both the Knossos portal and the node to Capella on both ends. Mjölnirs, Meson Mines, missiles batteries, a few destroyers... that kind of thing. I never understood how they always used rather small forces to "blockade" nodes... General evacuation of Capella system might have been justifiable but problematic considering it's importance for the GTVA.
Also, I concur to the Colossus being underarmed. If it really had such puny reactors that it could only power the beams that were on it you could just strap several Mjölnir RBC's onto it's surface. And as far as heatsinks go, if they can have sufficient heatsink on something the size of Mjölnir, I don't get what the problem with heatsinks was in Colossus... perhaps they SHOULD have been designed for magnitudes of more abuse. :confused:
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He said what would you have done differently. Deploying Alpha 1 is not different.
K.
Discharge Alpha 1 after his first mission. And see just how well the GTVA would do.
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Send in the sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads?
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Not attempt to fight a war on two fronts. Defend the Gamma Draconis system, deploy scouting craft into the nebula solely for advance warning; they should avoid contact with the enemy. Begin evacuating civilian dependents and non-war-industry workers from Capella at once, and make efforts to fortify the system. Focus on holding the line against the NTF and isolating them until the Colossus has been deployed. If possible, use the Colossus only as a linebreaker at the Polaris node, allowing the GTVA to assert its advantage in numbers in a system-wide engagement, before dispatching it to stand guard at Capella or Gamma Drac depending on which is easier to support.
And remember that the GTVA's advantage against the Shivans is in the quality of their fightercraft, so I should attempt to combat Shivan ships with fightercraft wherever possible, and capitals should not assume a leading role except in a situation where they will bring a crushing firepower advantage into play.
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If I were Command, I'd tend my resignation and sign up for the flight school. After all, why be back at base barking orders when you could be in the thick of it?
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Also, I concur to the Colossus being underarmed. If it really had such puny reactors that it could only power the beams that were on it you could just strap several Mjölnir RBC's onto it's surface. And as far as heatsinks go, if they can have sufficient heatsink on something the size of Mjölnir, I don't get what the problem with heatsinks was in Colossus... perhaps they SHOULD have been designed for magnitudes of more abuse. :confused:
It depends I suppose. Those heatsinks were designed for a specific power output and no-more, it was never intended that the Colly should have to use more firepower than what it was designed to do. If the GTVA had known about the Sath, surely they would've designed larger heatsinks. For it's surface area, I think the Colly is armed well enough, both it's broadsides being covered there's not much else to do is there, however, I think they should've designed a new type of beam cannon with a larger power-output for a ship of such magnitude.
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If i was Command...hmm
well id
Do what Woolie Wool has said
Id also
-Keep the Harbinger and Tsunami in service
-Replace all Blob-Turrets with a mix of Rail Guns and the Rapid-Fire Plasma Phalanx used by the Omega Destroyer from B5
-Give the Colossus decent armarments and replace its crew because though they died heros, they were still complete Frak-heads.
-Id introduce Carriers
-Introduce Battleships to the fleet. Now before Karajorma starts arguing with me like he did with Trashman a while back, i will state how i see Battleships working in the FS universe. Battleship would be bristling with weaponary, but have no fighterbay. I way i see them working is that battleships would emerge from subspace in the middle of enemy fleet formations, deliver a series of fast devestating strikes and jump out. As a Rule, Battleships opporate in groups of 3 or 4 and never indivually and always be accompanied by a couple of support wings of cruisers.
http://efni.org/Earthforce_Navy_EFNI.htm - I'd use this as a basis of the fleet organization - except apply it to 14 fleets and 14 Battle Groups.
Id also move away from the dependancy on Beam-Weapons. I mean the Colossus with similar armarments to the B5's Omega Destroyer. If i could, id replace the almost the entire GTVA Fleet craft with the Babylon 5 Earth Alliance ships (Canon and those from EFNI[dot]net). Just about the only ships id keep are the Perseus, Herc I+2, Ares and Erinyes fighters and the Aeolus cruiser and the Deimos corvette. Hell, id even go as far as to try and build my own Mercury and Columbia class Battlestars if i could
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The irony here is the number of people who are advocating things beyond Command's control or ability, like widescale deployment of experimental technologies or total fleet redesign.
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The irony here is the number of people who are advocating things beyond Command's control or ability, like widescale deployment of experimental technologies or total fleet redesign.
Yeah I see your point
In reality, we are mostly suggesting things for the GTVA to trial, rather than Command. Command's power stops really at what forces go where, not devising experimental armenants etc.
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Blockade the Knossos with every friggin thing I can scrounge up.
Fortify is to such redicolous level that everybody in the universe will think me insane.
But it would be worth it tough.. Imageine a Sath jumping in only to be greeted by 3000 beam cannons opening up on it :beamz:
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But it would be worth it tough.. Imageine a Sath jumping in only to be greeted by 3000 beam cannons opening up on it :beamz:
......Imagine the lag! :lol:
Dude seriously, what the hell would happen to my frame rate, it would like a hit a brickwall or something
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I'd create 2 or 3 (or more) Hadeses instead of the Collie.
And I would enter the portal but only to establish a defence until the studies are done. After that, retreat and blow the whole hell up!
Yup, and deploy more ships against the rebel run to the portal. I don't believe that "our forces are currenty tied down" crap. You should always have a few reinforcements at hand.
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I'd create 2 or 3 (or more) Hadeses instead of the Collie.
And I would enter the portal but only to establish a defence until the studies are done. After that, retreat and blow the whole hell up!
Yup, and deploy more ships against the rebel run to the portal. I don't believe that "our forces are currenty tied down" crap. You should always have a few reinforcements at hand.
Yeah, build three jury-rigged, half-completed shells of Terran super-destroyers with some obsolete Shivan beam cannons hastily bolted on and no point defense at all. Good idea. :p
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I'd create 2 or 3 (or more) Hadeses instead of the Collie.
And I would enter the portal but only to establish a defence until the studies are done. After that, retreat and blow the whole hell up!
Yup, and deploy more ships against the rebel run to the portal. I don't believe that "our forces are currenty tied down" crap. You should always have a few reinforcements at hand.
Yeah, build three jury-rigged, half-completed shells of Terran super-destroyers with some obsolete Shivan beam cannons hastily bolted on and no point defense at all. Good idea. :p
Come on, if you'd have 20 years to modify the concept (and to have the resources as the amount for building the Colly), I guess you'd make sg out of that ship.
Or create a new concept, but, for God's sake, not a capship, but a juggernaut-killer with a lot of firepower and (only if necessary of course) relatively weak defenses. Image 5-10 modified Hadeses with proper fighter and bomber cover converging upon that Sath, Their Finest Hour would have been Our Finest Hour...
By the way, I'd like to add that I would retire the Hecate class (tho it is rarely seen in action except fleeing the nebula).
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I would have mass-produced Mjlonir-class turrets, and stationed them in every controlled system. Set up a sensor at each end of the node to alert you of incoming ships. I would have scrapped the Aeolus, because it's really overshadowed by the Deimos. I'd have retired the Orion. Seriously. It's big, but that's it. I would have put my resources into researching BFReds.
If you don't disband the Orion, then you could mount BFGreens onto the aforementioned Destroyer. Even if it only had one. A single BFRed on an Orion could decimate any enemy ship. When I get my new computer, I'm going to try that out. Mount a BFRed onto an Orion, and make it run a gauntlet.
I've been itching for a BoE for a while...
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What everyone is forgetting is that every mission was not built to be 'realistic', but to be 'playable'. Off-course we would have put a few Mjolnir RBC's around the jump node the sath was coming out of and let the Colussus engage the little bugger there, but that would just ruin the need of Alpha 1 being stationed there, or it would involve having several warships around, which would then be too straining on the computer etc. etc. etc.
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Nowadays, comps won't have problem with a lot of ships (I know, it was released long ago, but now we are considering the pure strategical reasons)
Not playable? Add a lot more of Shivan craft! (I'd wipe the whole Mjolnir out of the game. It's too powerful.
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For that reason why not wipe out the BFRed wich is like beyond ridiculous powerfull.
Also the Orion is the most powerfull destroyer out there in a anti-cap ship role. It has the most powerfull broad side of ANY GTVA destroyer. It it ideal for blocading nodes.
Also The Hecate has its use. It is designed as a C&C cap ship. Meaning it was not designed to take it up to the enemy but stay back deploy fighters where needed use its sensors and such for coordination of the fleets and battle deployments !
However replacing the Orion with the Hecate is a very big mistake.
You dont even need the Collie to take out the Sath or hold the fort against shivan jugg's !
Just gather at least 2 or 3 Hattie's and a few Orion's with full fighter bomber complement and deploy them around the node. Place 4 or 5 Mjolnir's there and i can guarantee no fricking Shivan Jugg is gonna last long enough .
I mean you have a concentrated power of at least 6 BG and an aditional 6 Bvas and an aditional 6 slashers(useless but still...) And you have 4 or 5 Mjolnir's ! Add to this the bombers and fighter and i can guarantee any shivan jugg is gone get blown away really fast !
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You dont even need the Collie to take out the Sath or hold the fort against shivan jugg's !
Just gather at least 2 or 3 Hattie's and a few Orion's with full fighter bomber complement and deploy them around the node. Place 4 or 5 Mjolnir's there and i can guarantee no fricking Shivan Jugg is gonna last long enough .
I mean you have a concentrated power of at least 6 BG and an aditional 6 Bvas and an aditional 6 slashers(useless but still...) And you have 4 or 5 Mjolnir's ! Add to this the bombers and fighter and i can guarantee any shivan jugg is gone get blown away really fast !
That's assuming you can even get that blockade up in time before the Sathanas comes and mows it all down.
Even if you do get it up in time, under the firepower of 80 Sathanes (and an untold number of Shivan ships) any blockade would crumble eventually.
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I'd like to ask the question: What would you use instead of the Dolly Colly?
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I'd like to ask the question: What would you use instead of the Dolly Colly?
Bombers.
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Yeah, it's odd how many people maintain that they could somehow stop the Shivans.
Even if you physically blocked the node with a massive shell of neutronium, the Sath fleet would just find another way around.
We're helpless before them; that was the lesson of FS2. No amount of Trashman ingenuity or AlphaOne enthusiasm can stop the Shivans.
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Yeah, it's odd how many people maintain that they could somehow stop the Shivans.
Even if you physically blocked the node with a massive shell of neutronium, the Sath fleet would just find another way around.
We're helpless before them; that was the lesson of FS2. No amount of Trashman ingenuity or AlphaOne enthusiasm can stop the Shivans.
Of course. We are just looking for methods more useful than the ones Command has used.
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I'm sure even Command thought, "Hey, let's put all our destroyers at the node. That will stop them!" but decided not to. And I'd give him credit for that, 'cause even 8 Orions wouldn't have lasted two minutes against 80 Saths.
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Youre assuming ALL 80 Jugg's are gonna come out of the hump node at once.
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Youre assuming ALL 80 Jugg's are gonna come out of the hump node at once.
You're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They're not going to send in one Juggernaut one after another, in sequence, until all 80 are destroyed. No. That's not what they'd do.
Even if you do hold down the blockade and destroy a few Sathanes (which, frankly, even with 10 Hatshepsuts is a pretty tall order), eventually the Shivans will get the point and do something. Be that send in bombers, make a diversion, or, I dunno, find a way around, they'll still get you.
Point is, there's no simple solution to defeating the Shivans or any intelligent force. Don't come out and say "If you place a Mjolnir behind the node the Shivans are doomed, that's the way the GTVA win the war", because that's daft. It's not that simple.
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Exactly. In fact, in the campaign I'm doing, Command will try enormous blockades at least twice, but get soundly defeated each time.
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...hump node...
... :wtf: :confused:
Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot is a "hump node"?
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If i was command, id have had the Iceni wasted the first chance i got
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If i was command, id have had the Iceni wasted the first chance i got
Then you'd never get the ETAK device. ;)
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Would have been a bloody short game too. Six missions or so. No Shivans. :D
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Would have been a bloody short game too. Six missions or so. No Shivans. :D
that's the best part. No SSI. No... ****, that gives me an idea.
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Youre assuming ALL 80 Jugg's are gonna come out of the hump node at once.
You're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They're not going to send in one Juggernaut one after another, in sequence, until all 80 are destroyed. No. That's not what they'd do.
How else would you send them? You can't exactly fit 80 of them in a node at once. not to mention that if they just rush in they will end up ramming into each other.
Node warfare is similar to trenach warfare. The node is a bottleneck. That's the only reason why the NTF managed to last as long as it did - because you need some serious power to break trough a blockade.
Point is, there's no simple solution to defeating the Shivans or any intelligent force. Don't come out and say "If you place a Mjolnir behind the node the Shivans are doomed, that's the way the GTVA win the war", because that's daft. It's not that simple.
If they see the node is too well defended, they probably won't use it - yes, you are right. The probably wont' continue coming trough one by one only to be blown to bits.
but hey - stoping them from coming trough is the goal...so yeah..I'd call that a win. Let them search for a another way around.
We're helpless before them; that was the lesson of FS2. No amount of Trashman ingenuity or AlphaOne enthusiasm can stop the Shivans.
Bah. That only goes to show you you're not using enough TrashMan ingenuity.
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I don't know that the GTVA could stop the Shivans. You have to stop AT LEAST 80 Saths and who knows how many Ravanas and Demons. The GTVA could hardly muster the forces to take down just 1 Sath, let alone 80 of them. If the Shivans sent just 4 or 5 Saths in at once, they could likely vaporize the entire GTVA fleet if it was pitted against the 4 or 5 Saths. I know a lot of people say that FS1 was more desperate than FS2, but in FS2 the threat that the Shivans pose was revealed to be even more terrorfying than what was shown in FS1. In FS1 the shivans (the Lucy) could only immolate the surface of a planet, now they can destroy a whole star sytem in 1 swift blow(even puts the Death Star to shame).
I don't know that the node blockades could even work against the Saths because it looked like each Sath was capable of creating its own jump field. There's no way to stop them. Damn I wish they made FS3, FS2 left so many unanswered questions and the Shivans are as mysterious as they ever were.
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Sath able to create its own node ? Are you for real ?
also do you have any idea of the total fleetsize of the GTVA ? Having such a massive force set up in a blocade formation is...well fizzcaly impossible you could put a lot of them there ! I dont know perhaps 10 or 15 destroyers??
Dont know if anyone ever tried. However having such a massive force as a node blocade would well take out any shivan jugg the first shot they got ! You'd have what 3-40 beam canons opening fire on one target. I dont care if its shivan or otherwise nothing can withstand that much firepower.
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I can say exactly what I would have done. I would have kicked the @$$ out of the NTF fast. None of this "wait for the colossus to be deployed and THEN kill ships" The two-front war really did not help.
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Agree nothing is worse then a multi front war without the adequate resources or the will to carry it out.
I mean from what we have seen the terrans have pretty much fought this war alone. Then with a tired and damaged fighting force + the vasudan side which was much better off a lot better they decide they wanna fight the shivans explore a nebula and terminate the NTF ? Oh come on get real.
Thats just a waste of resources and time ! sure they wanted etak so then beat it out of the guy responsible for it ! Develop it yourself . One way or the other im pretty sure the GTVI would of been able to "acquire" some ussefull information regarding the shivan com's device. Im talking about ETAK not the big spinning thing
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Well truth be told if command was competent then A1 would end up being a bit player rather then savior of the GTVA. In addition the way the story and tactics played out was probably more driven by what the engine could handle at the time but for the sake of hypothetical...
Asset changes:
-Build a purpose built Node Knacker based off a Meson technology and deploy it at important choke points.
-Focus on building some fighter bombers that can specialize in quickly taking out weapons and subsystems instead of just massive lumbering bombers. Something similar to the Athena would suffice
-Possibly some purpose built carriers since fightercraft are one of the GTVA's strong points. The Hecates were already weaker combatants then the Orion, might has well have doubled or tripled the fighter capacity on a cheaper hull
Tactical Doctrine changes
-Always deploy your forces in mixed battlegroups that can support each other. Having your ships putt around by their lonesomes where they can get ambushed and snuffed is not wise
-Effectively employ your airwings. Properly supported how long does it take a dozen Ursas, Bones, etc to completely snuff a destroyer? Not long. Proper use of your air wings means not having to throw your weaker capital assets at tough Shivan warships. Even the mighty Sathanas is destroyer dog food if its front beams are eliminated.
-Fortify your nodes with, Mjolnir, Mines and as a last resort node knackers.
Stategic changes
-Recognizing that the wheels where going to fall off the bus instead of being giddy hubris filled wankers that they stopped the Shivans initial probes and that their Collie snuffed the big bad Sathanas.
-Taking preventative measures (node knackers) to cut off the shivan advance before they reach one of your major population centers would have been much less devastating
Realistically none of this would have necessarily have led to a different end gambit at stopping the Shivans then the one the GTVA used (80 Saths is 80 Saths). But proper force deployments and recognizing the need to cut the Shivans off from your space might have lead to not losing Capella and an overall better attrition rate in your own forces.
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(even puts the Death Star to shame).
But not the Sun Crusher :p.
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My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.
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My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.
You still have to haul them around, though.
And don't forget that a fighter pilot is a really big investment in terms of training time, resources, and morale compared to capital ship crew.
For that matter, can any number of Cyclops-wielding bombers kill a Sath? I thought it didn't have the right flag.
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My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.
You still have to haul them around, though.
And don't forget that a fighter pilot is a really big investment in terms of training time, resources, and morale compared to capital ship crew.
For that matter, can any number of Cyclops-wielding bombers kill a Sath? I thought it didn't have the right flag.
Yes, which is why you just use your destroyers for what they CAN do. They can defend installations and attack smaller ships, but if you want to hit a ship of equal or greater size, you should have a lot of more firepower than necessary.
Anyways--yeah, I don't see a reason why 30-40 ships with Cyclopse can't destroy a Sath. And if it's that much an issue, issue Helios. Or just disarm and disable a Sath and THEN bring the Big C or a few Orions against it.
And yes, pilots are a prescious few. But what takes longer and more effort to train? 2000 crew members including all officers or 100 pilots?
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My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.
How are you going to get these hundreds of short-range fighters into the theater? How are you going to refuel and rearm these fighters? Where will the pilots live and sleep? How will their fighters be repaired or replaced? Who will arrive to help when the pilots suffer from debilitating mental or physical injuries in the line of duty?
If your answer to that is flimsy dedicated carriers, then that raises the question of what you're going to do when the Shivans find them and blow them away. The Shivans move too quickly for the GTVA to count on a static front, and the GTVA does not have the resources to build massive quantities of corvettes as escorts, and that's why the GTVA has destroyers.
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I've noticed that quite often people point out how quickly x number of bombers can kill a destroyer. In my opinion that's because they're using too many.
The weapons of FS2 are balanced for the relatively small numbers of ships that are in use at any one time - not ususally much more that a single wing. If you're going to deploy more than 4 bombers at a time, then the weapons they carry need to be seriously toned down to compensate. We see that demonstrated in the Shivan ship/weapon balance where they have larger numbers of ships, but weaker weapons per ship.
Same goes for all fighter weapons, really - we tend to up the numbers of ships per mission, but keep the firepower that was balanced for a handful of ships.
Just my opinion, though...
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We see that demonstrated in the Shivan ship/weapon balance where they have larger numbers of ships, but weaker weapons per ship.
Actually the Nephilim and Shaitan have a really tiny loadout that only works with one bombing run only. As for the Seraphim, it is so slow and easy to hit that they die quickly but all Shivan bombers generally use the cyclops or the rebel bomb, which iirc is just a cyclops with no shockwave.
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I don't know that the GTVA could stop the Shivans. You have to stop AT LEAST 80 Saths and who knows how many Ravanas and Demons bigger ships.
Fixed.
Also the Orion is the most powerfull destroyer out there in a anti-cap ship role. It has the most powerfull broad side of ANY GTVA destroyer. It it ideal for blocading nodes.
The Big Hat has more wookie than the Big O, I've calculated that some time ago, and the Hat won by a few hundred HP/s in beams only. In a short range slugfest the Hat wins more thanks to fusion mortars and Flak which do more damage than the turrets the O has.
The Hat also wins in the HP department, having 35k points more.
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You sure your calculations are correct?
If I pit a Orion against a Hattie, the Orion will win most of the time.
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Is there just something wrong with you people, or are you knowingly massively overstating what Command is actually responsible for, or massively overestimating it, or what? I mean, new ship classes, mass deployment of technologies that are experimental. Hell, even my setup is probably asking too much of Command.
Because Command is a tactical commander. Probably no more than Captain in rank, if that. Command doesn't have control of the overall GTVA war effort. He doesn't even apparently have operational control of a single system, just the assets assigned for any particular operation. This is why I suspect Command doesn't even merit a Captain's rank: he rarely seems to have control over warships in your operations area, because he doesn't seem to give them orders very often. Command is just a fighter coordinator, not an admiral.
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I think in this case people are treating "Command" as the chain of command and not the person barking the orders to you! In other words, Command and those above him, immediate superiors etc. Those who are in charge of the war effort!
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also do you have any idea of the total fleetsize of the GTVA ? Having such a massive force set up in a blocade formation is...well fizzcaly impossible you could put a lot of them there ! I dont know perhaps 10 or 15 destroyers??
Dont know if anyone ever tried. However having such a massive force as a node blocade would well take out any shivan jugg the first shot they got ! You'd have what 3-40 beam canons opening fire on one target. I dont care if its shivan or otherwise nothing can withstand that much firepower.
True, even 80 Sath won't be able to withstand that many beam cannons through sheer force of armor alone. But Shivans aren't idiots; once they realize they're not getting through just sending in their Saths undefended they'll do something else. Once again you completely missed my point. You could have 28,000 Colossus class warships defending the same node, it's not going to stop them.
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When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?
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When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?
Maybe, but at that time they thought that the Knossos was responsible for maintaining the jump node. Who would have thought that it could actually stabilize the node that much.
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1# Hire Alpha 1 to train Chuck Norris
2# Buy Acme Super Space Suit
3# Let Chuck loose
4# Lawlz at Shivans
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When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?
Maybe, but at that time they thought that the Knossos was responsible for maintaining the jump node. Who would have thought that it could actually stabilize the node that much.
I also recall the dialogue suggesting that the GTVA used all of their meson bombs in the Knossos demolition.
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I also recall the dialogue suggesting that the GTVA used all of their meson bombs in the Knossos demolition.
Incorrect. They planned to destroy the Knossos with one Meson bomb, but had two other bombs standing by, just in case.
A large quantity of Meson warheads were later loaded on board the Bastion and another destroyer, which were detonated within the nodes leading out of Capella.
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I also recall the dialogue suggesting that the GTVA used all of their meson bombs in the Knossos demolition.
Incorrect. They planned to destroy the Knossos with one Meson bomb, but had two other bombs standing by, just in case.
A large quantity of Meson warheads were later loaded on board the Bastion and another destroyer, which were detonated within the nodes leading out of Capella.
Someone should make a ship what fires Meson bombs instead of beams.
Or, a kamikaze ship loaded with Meson running into a Sath (not against 80, of course).
Or, planting holographically disguised Mesons planted in the Sathanas's way...
I fell in love with Mesons!
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You sure your calculations are correct?
If I pit a Orion against a Hattie, the Orion will win most of the time.
Put the ships in a position where both have max firepower:
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5281/beztytuujr8.jpg)
And the Hat ends up with some 13-17% after the Orion's a heap of debris.
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Really? The Orion is weaker than the Hat? Huh, another reason to retire it. If a HATSHEPSUT can kill it...
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Really? The Orion is weaker than the Hat? Huh, another reason to retire it. If a HATSHEPSUT can kill it...
Excuse me?
The Orion is likely one of the most powerful destroyers out there, the Hatshepsut's just better. The Hatshepsut's probably second only to the Ravana (and only if the Ravana takes it by surprise). The Orion is better than the Hecate, Typhon and Demon anyway.
I can't believe you would actually say that the Orion sucks and the Hatshepsut is a baseline for suck. Couldn't be further from the truth. Honestly.
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Naah, the Hat is the baseline for WIN.
As are the Perseus, Ares, Akhm Sekhmet and Erynies.
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The Hatshepsut is better because it actually has 35% more HP than the Orion (135k vs 100k).
If it ends up with 13-17% remaining, then the Orion actually has more firepower.
They're both pretty good, except that the Orion is absolutely worthless when against even a single competent bomber that knows to stay either in front, behind or to the sides of it (not top or bottom).
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Taking out the Vindicator in Sicilian Defense took even less time than killing the corvette that came after. That's how easy it is to destroy Orions without any capital ship assistance.
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Taking out the Vindicator in Sicilian Defense took even less time than killing the corvette that came after. That's how easy it is to destroy Orions without any capital ship assistance.
If I was Orion captain I'd take off every Zig Perseus.
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You sure your calculations are correct?
If I pit a Orion against a Hattie, the Orion will win most of the time.
Put the ships in a position where both have max firepower:
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5281/beztytuujr8.jpg)
And the Hat ends up with some 13-17% after the Orion's a heap of debris.
What difficulty are you playing on?
IIRC, the enemy damage changes with difficutly, and the Orion is Hostile.
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The test was on medium.
And the Hat had 17% HP left because the exploding Orion still beamed after it started falling apart. If it quit in the moment it reached zero, the Hat would be above 45%.
And here's what happened on Extreme:
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4157/beztytuuex5.jpg)
After BVas salvo 1:
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5756/beztytuuaw8.jpg)
HP % are 42 and 78, for O and H respectively, the Orion fired 2 BGreens and a TerSlash. The other TerSlash is still charging up on the image. Random fire delays FTW.
And salvo 2:
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9743/beztytuujy2.jpg)
Notice BGreen is charging up, and the Hat has 72% hull (it was hit only by the TerSlash seen charging up in the 2-nd image) between it's salvos. The small dots were fusion mortar rounds.
And after Orion's final shots:
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5159/beztytuujw5.jpg)
It gave a whole salvo, maybe minus one TerSlash, and got the Hat down to 30%, highest in any of my 3 test fights. JPG compression seems to have blurred the 30 on the image.
P.S. I could probably do a couple more of these tomorrow, I have my winter break now and so I have some free time. Post candidates for shootouts, and maybe the directions they should be facing (as in max firepower, broadside, head on or whatever).
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For the sake of science, try one where the Hattie is hostile, the Orion friendly. Keep all other variables the same.
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With all my experience of playing, Hatties are a relief for me. Orions always give me an "Oh, crap" feeling. I play on Medium.
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Hostile Hatties? Or friendly ones?
I feel how you feel when they're friendly.
Hatties can generally survive even if you ignore a few bombers, because it has a good few AAAs and flaks, and it can take a fair few hits too. Orions prove to be liabilities when there are bombers present and no enemy corvette or destroyer to kill.
Enemy Hatshepsuts confuse me as to what I should do.
Enemy Orions are. "Stilleto the front heavy beam, shoot off the rest with primaries, park in front of the hangar and shoot everything that flies out, while encountering absolutely no resistance whatsoever".
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I think it's also psychological. The Orion is huge, and intimidating. Maybe it's not threatening for YOU as a fighter, but anything Corvette-Cruiser sized will need some new brown pants.
The Hapshetsut on the other hand looks almost friendly. Nice, gentle curves, and, from what I remember, rather weak fighter bay capacity. Not any real good camping spots, though.
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If I were Command, I would get bombers to disable the rear LRed of the Sathanas, then get either and Orion, Hatshepsut or the Colossus to jump in behind it. :drevil:
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If I were Command, I would get bombers to disable the rear LRed of the Sathanas, then get either and Orion, Hatshepsut or the Colossus to jump in behind it. :drevil:
Discounting the fact the Sath would turn around and blow it to 50 million shades of debris? :lol:
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I don't see how it would be able to turn around fast enough. Those things move in an almost straight line at 30-50 KM/sec. It would have to turn a very wide arc to shoot back. The ship could kill it by then.
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Hmm... If i were command i would give this
hump node
idea more thought. The sight of massive humping occurring at one node would cause severe and massive discomfort as well as confusion among the shivan ranks. Then, according to chaos theory they would turn tail at once and return from whence they came. The shivans disgusted at our lack of professionalism would snub our galaxy, and thus we win the war. We go home, everyone is happy.
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I don't see how it would be able to turn around fast enough. Those things move in an almost straight line at 30-50 KM/sec. It would have to turn a very wide arc to shoot back. The ship could kill it by then.
An Orion? Doubt it, max would be lowering the Sath to about 75%
Hmm... If i were command i would give this hump node
idea more thought. The sight of massive humping occurring at one node would cause severe and massive discomfort as well as confusion among the shivan ranks. Then, according to chaos theory they would turn tail at once and return from whence they came. The shivans disgusted at our lack of professionalism would snub our galaxy, and thus we win the war. We go home, everyone is happy.
I sense a screenshot opportunity here
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I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.
the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it :D
Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.
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I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.
the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it :D
Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.
Why didn't the Sath just jump out then? :rolleyes:
Or deploy bombers? :rolleyes:
Or call in a Ravana? :rolleyes:
Or ram them anyway? :rolleyes:
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Why didn't the Sath just jump out then? :rolleyes:
Or deploy bombers? :rolleyes:
Or call in a Ravana? :rolleyes:
Or ram them anyway? :rolleyes:
Or call 2 more Saths? :rolleyes:
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I made a mission where I had 1 Fenris behind two Sathanes. The Sathanes didn't move so the Fenris won. Thus, we can say that one Fenris is twice as powerful as any Sathanas.
QED
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Why didn't the Sath just jump out then? :rolleyes:
Or deploy bombers? :rolleyes:
Or call in a Ravana? :rolleyes:
Or ram them anyway? :rolleyes:
Apparently, in FS, capships rarely jump out when close to destruction. Weird, I know.
Orion has fighters of it's own to keep the shivans busy for a few minutes
For the same reason the Orions didn't call a Colossus I guess.
Cause ramming 2 kilometers long metal object isn't conductive to the ships health? Frankly, I think the kamikaze/ramming damage in FS2 is laughable.
Repluse ramming the Collie = crippled or dead Collie. That's how it should be at least.
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Honestly, TrashMan, it's not so simple as "Two Orions broadsiding a Sath = GTVA wins no contest".
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For the sake of science, try one where the Hattie is hostile, the Orion friendly. Keep all other variables the same.
OK, I did the shootout again, the O loses, once with a 7% Hat (it had 1 beam killed by the Orion's slasher though), and the next battle was 23% hull left for the Hat.
Also- doesn't difficulty effect beams in terms of GTVA vs Shivan, making no difference if 2 GTVA ships fight each other?
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Honestly, TrashMan, it's not so simple as "Two Orions broadsiding a Sath = GTVA wins no contest".
When did I say it was?
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You didn't? OK.
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For the sake of science, try one where the Hattie is hostile, the Orion friendly. Keep all other variables the same.
OK, I did the shootout again, the O loses, once with a 7% Hat (it had 1 beam killed by the Orion's slasher though), and the next battle was 23% hull left for the Hat.
Also- doesn't difficulty effect beams in terms of GTVA vs Shivan, making no difference if 2 GTVA ships fight each other?
Awesome, thanks.
I'm not sure about the beam thing. I know that lowered difficulty levels do seem to affect friendly as well as hostile beams...
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you are not considering that the hattie and the orion are different, the orion has more beam-fire points than the hattie, so in a real combat with real wings of fighters the orion wings will have less trouble disarming the hattie than the hattie's ones... sure lots of pilots will be lost to the deadly flak and AAA beams of the hattie but if the two beam turrets are down then the hattie is useless (as the orion would without beams also).
Also the hattie has a weak side regarding cap ship combat, the bottom part has no beam turrets IIRC, the orion punches hard on every axis (regarding cap combat).
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That's something I mentioned on the Wiki. The problem with the Hatshepsut is that all its main guns can only fire upwards and forwards a little.
If an Orion were to jump in BELOW a Hatshepsut with its broadside facing the Vasudan destroyer... :nervous:
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The Hattie still has its single SVas to fight back with.
Not like that will ever be enough to kill anything but cruisers with though.
I think it's also psychological. The Orion is huge, and intimidating. Maybe it's not threatening for YOU as a fighter, but anything Corvette-Cruiser sized will need some new brown pants.
The Hapshetsut on the other hand looks almost friendly. Nice, gentle curves, and, from what I remember, rather weak fighter bay capacity. Not any real good camping spots, though.
Yeah, the Orion looks cooler, mostly because it's HTL'ed and the Hattie isn't :p I'm pretty sure something smooth and rounded can still look intimidating.
I don't know about capacity, but launch capability wise, the Hattie wins hands down - the Hatshepsut has two fighterbays, one on either side, so it's not so easy to just spawn kill stuff.
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Yeah, the Orion looks cooler, mostly because it's HTL'ed and the Hattie isn't :p I'm pretty sure something smooth and rounded can still look intimidating.
Like this?
(http://thesubreport.com/typhoona11.jpg)
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the hattie is not round... the arrow like head is quite good in terms of scaring.. the problem is the body... it gets "fat" and thats will give everyone that impresion you are talking about.
Still as droid said... it's just a matter of time before someone htl's that model and then it will be something different indeed.
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It will still have the same weakneses, it will just look better.
I never did understand why [V] didn't update the FS1 destroyers with a few more turrets when they made FS2.
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Well, the Typhon's reactor couldn't take it.
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I also recall the dialogue suggesting that the GTVA used all of their meson bombs in the Knossos demolition.
Incorrect. They planned to destroy the Knossos with one Meson bomb, but had two other bombs standing by, just in case.
A large quantity of Meson warheads were later loaded on board the Bastion and another destroyer, which were detonated within the nodes leading out of Capella.
Someone should make a ship what fires Meson bombs instead of beams.
Or, a kamikaze ship loaded with Meson running into a Sath (not against 80, of course).
Or, planting holographically disguised Mesons planted in the Sathanas's way...
I fell in love with Mesons!
The Derelict Campaign had something like that. I believe they called it the Gorgon Cannon(I could be misspelling the name). The cannon channeled the energy of a meson bomb into a coherent beam. The only prototype of the cannon was destroyed. I remember the mission where it was destroyed but I forget the specifics.
Aurora Paradox
Clan Smoke Jaguar
Alpha Star
Star Colonel
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It killed itself while smoking the SD Azathoth.
And the Gorgon Cannon fires a Meson Beam (well, four BFGreens strapped together or something).
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It was impressive how the Gorgon mission was done without any modding.
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Building the thing in FRED must have taken ages.
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The Meson Beam was supposed to be a single beam, I think, but in order to bring out the damage, it was FREDded to fire several times in that small fraction of time.
Building the thing in FRED must have taken ages.
Unless a GTG Zephyrus has THAT many docking ports... :wtf:
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It doesn't. Not at the front.
Nor do Elysiums attach that way.
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Oh, wait...they attach at the top, right?
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yeah, the same direction their turret points, so it wouldn't be able to shoot without looking extremely awkward if they were attached that way.
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Well, the Typhon's reactor couldn't take it.
The beams, yea. I was talking about flak and laser turrets. Those can't need much power. A single fighters reactor can power Keysers (which outperform laser turrets immensly) for crying out loud!
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The beams, yea. I was talking about flak and laser turrets. Those can't need much power. A single fighters reactor can power Keysers (which outperform laser turrets immensly) for crying out loud!
You're forgetting each fighter has its own dedicated reactor, which only has to power shields, weapons and engines. A large destroyer probably doesn't have more than five reactors, and those have to power ship-wide life support, engines, flak, beams, etc. etc. I think capital ship reactors may be more powerful individually, but since they're powering an entire ship you can't afford to put power-hungry weapons like Kaysers on individual turrets without sacrificing some engine output or something.
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A multi-billion-ton destroyer (yes, billion--FS2 destroyers are THAT HUGE) probably produces so much power that Kayser turrets wouldn't make a difference.
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If so why don't the GTVA just put a few hundred Kaysers on every ship? There's gotta be a reason the GTVA don't do this other than "They didn't think of it".
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Because the gameplay of FS is biased towards fighters, and :v: didn't want capships swatting fighters like flies?
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Haven't you guys noticed that the Kayser is a fighter weapon and is relatively short range? Even missiles go further!
sure they could be made into point-defense, but caps already have flak guns for that.
Destroyers in FS serve a more carrier or command oriented roles. Corvettes are what you need for any type of cap ship battle.
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Because the gameplay of FS is biased towards fighters, and :v: didn't want capships swatting fighters like flies?
Eh.
Subluminal lasers.
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If so why don't the GTVA just put a few hundred Kaysers on every ship? There's gotta be a reason the GTVA don't do this other than "They didn't think of it".
Game balance...and dev decisions.
Two ultimate reasons that trump everything else, including science, logic and coolness.
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I think we should officially call that particular reason "Subluminal lasers" - ie. It's a game.
Anyway, as an in-universe explanation... Reactors. Yes.
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In universe explanation - budget cuts. Makes more sense.
If I was ever building a FS2 ship, I'd stick a fighter reactor into each capship turret (since a fighter reactor is a lot smaller than most FS2 capship turrets anyway..it gots room).
With all power to weapons, that means each turret can lay a unholy ammount of smackdown!
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In universe explanation - budget cuts. Makes more sense.
Not really...
If I was ever building a FS2 ship, I'd stick a fighter reactor into each capship turret (since a fighter reactor is a lot smaller than most FS2 capship turrets anyway..it gots room).
With all power to weapons, that means each turret can lay a unholy ammount of smackdown!
:blah:
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In universe explanation - budget cuts. Makes more sense.
Not really...
Yes really. You're telling me a 2km long spaceships reactor can't power a few pitifully weak laser turret? Or flak guns? Flak gun aren't even energy weapons for crying out loud!
Even with all the beam cannons on the Orion and with the whole "weak reactor" theory, nothing is really stopping you from adding more small turrets - if energy drain is such a problem, you just don't use all of them at the same time.
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If I was ever building a FS2 ship, I'd stick a fighter reactor into each capship turret (since a fighter reactor is a lot smaller than most FS2 capship turrets anyway..it gots room).
With all power to weapons, that means each turret can lay a unholy ammount of smackdown!
That would be one friggin expensive ship if you're going to have as many reactors as weapons.
It'd probably be a maintenance nightmare as well.
However, It'd probably also kick ass.
Kayser turrets are actually less effective than they would seem, as they won't have their nice rapid-fire rate anymore, and their range is pitifully short for a capship weapon. They will probably be quite effective at killing fighters very close to the ship, but they'd probably be less effective than blobs at shooting down bombs. Morningstars and Maxims? Now that's a different story.
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Maxims have almost no anti-shield capability. And Morningstars have that whole knockback effect that makes targets harder to hit since they are bouncing around.
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Have you ever tried attacking something with a bunch of morningstar turrets?
You can't get close. The knockback effect is very desirable for a capital ship. It means that the attacking fighters don't have control and therefore can't shoot at it. The capship doesn't need to repeatedly hit - knocking the fighter/bomber around is enough.
Also, both are exceptional at intercepting bombs - the main purpose of 'blob' turrets. Besides, Flak is excellent at lowering shields.
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I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.
the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it :D
Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.
Why didn't the Sath just jump out then? :rolleyes:
Or deploy bombers? :rolleyes:
Or call in a Ravana? :rolleyes:
Or ram them anyway? :rolleyes:
Probably for the same reason why one only allied flagship and one bomber wing with zero fighter escort was sent in to destroy the Oh-so-fearsome-Sathanas? And also for the same reason why the Sathanas didn't have any sort of capital ship escort of its own, and that its only reaction to the one allied bomber wing was to send in a single fighter wing to intercept it? :doubt:
Oh and not to mention, why didn't the Sathanas jump out when it became apparent that it would meet its demise then? :rolleyes:
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I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.
the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it :D
Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.
Why didn't the Sath just jump out then? :rolleyes:
Or deploy bombers? :rolleyes:
Or call in a Ravana? :rolleyes:
Or ram them anyway? :rolleyes:
Probably for the same reason why one only allied flagship and one bomber wing with zero fighter escort was sent in to destroy the Oh-so-fearsome-Sathanas? And also for the same reason why the Sathanas didn't have any sort of capital ship escort of its own, and that its only reaction to the one allied bomber wing was to send in a single fighter wing to intercept it? :doubt:
Oh and not to mention, why didn't the Sathanas jump out when it became apparent that it would meet its demise then? :rolleyes:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60663.0.html
This fixes some of those problems. (actually, all of them except the one where the Sath doesn't try to run).
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Not sure if anyone else would have done this, but I would focus on heavier firepower.
1.) New class of ship--Strike Corvette. Imagine one corvette-sized flying beam cannon. Mash up anything on the receiving end really fast.
2.) deploy Orbital Defense Cannons--Kinda like turning an Arcadia into a massive beam cannon, with engines for strategic re-location of weapon system. Blast the crap out of anything approaching a planet with extreme prejudice.
3.) Field Tactical Theater-Range Missiles. TTRMs are just a little larger than bombers, really fast, and unbelievably effective against formations or ships larger than cruisers. Usually loaded onto destroyers or missile installations. Have incredibly long range (20 km). Keeps the interceptors and flak gunners on their toes.
4.) Field heavier bombers (on the order of 80 m long), defended by five turrets, fast as an Ares, and still capable of carrying 16 Helios missiles.
5.) Make sure that ships on the scale of the colossus have appropriately sized heat sinks (preferably ones that can refocus heat energy to make the beams more efficient and pack more punch).
6.) Stealth Assault Fighters.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60663.0.html
This fixes some of those problems. (actually, all of them except the one where the Sath doesn't try to run).
Beta tested it. :P
Not sure if anyone else would have done this, but I would focus on heavier firepower.
1.) New class of ship--Strike Corvette. Imagine one corvette-sized flying beam cannon. Mash up anything on the receiving end really fast.
2.) deploy Orbital Defense Cannons--Kinda like turning an Arcadia into a massive beam cannon, with engines for strategic re-location of weapon system. Blast the crap out of anything approaching a planet with extreme prejudice.
3.) Field Tactical Theater-Range Missiles. TTRMs are just a little larger than bombers, really fast, and unbelievably effective against formations or ships larger than cruisers. Usually loaded onto destroyers or missile installations. Have incredibly long range (20 km). Keeps the interceptors and flak gunners on their toes.
4.) Field heavier bombers (on the order of 50 m long), defended by five turrets, fast as an Ares, and still capable of carrying 16 Helios missiles.
5.) Make sure that ships on the scale of the colossus have appropriately sized heat sinks (preferably ones that can refocus heat energy to make the beams more efficient and pack more punch).
6.) Stealth Assault Fighters.
And all horribly impractical if not impossible to achieve.
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Really? I don't think a cannon capable of slicing a Demon or Ravana in half with one or two shots while staying at the size of a corvette is impractical. If anything it seems like a more efficient use of resources. And being able to soften up an incoming armada before hitting beam range isn't practical? It's pretty much like launching a tomahawk cruise missile at them.
I suddenly realize that 50m is approximately ursa sized. I mean something on around 80-100m.
Why would all these be impractical or impossible? As far as I know, most of these are just applications of strategies that have already been tried and proven effective.
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Really? I don't think a cannon capable of slicing a Demon or Ravana in half with one or two shots while staying at the size of a corvette is impractical.
Yes - just look at the Mjolnir cannon and it's only about a quarter of a Deimo's size. :)
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Try to make a Monitor the size of a FreeSpace Corvette with a powerful enough reactor to power the beam cannon AND the engines (Which also need to be large enough) to make it maneuver fast enough to bring the weapon to bear as well as making it armored enough to withstand more than one Helios impact.
Yes - just look at the Mjolnir cannon and it's only about a quarter of a Deimo's size. :)
And also produces about 1/3rd the damage of the GTVA's most powerful beam cannon. :rolleyes:
And being able to soften up an incoming armada before hitting beam range isn't practical? It's pretty much like launching a tomahawk cruise missile at them.
I suddenly realize that 50m is approximately ursa sized. I mean something on around 80-100m.
Oh here's a tidbit, the Tsunami, the Harbinger, the Cyclops, the Helios, the Shivan Bomb and Megabomb, those can be shot down, so what's to say that a MASSIVE tactical warhead won't be able to be taken down?
And bombers the size of freighters yet as fast as an Ares with five turrets, good luck giving it the engines and armor / shielding to withstand the approaching stages of the attack while having enough firepower to take down the big ships before having to rearm, and then of all things, making sure it's cost effective enough to have more than two ships to be ever produced.
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Monitor as in the U.S. Civil War era ironclad warship?
Just hollow out the hull of a Deimos, cut a hole in the front end, remove the four TerSlashes and pack in as large a beam as you can. If the hardware you remove weighs the same as the cannon you put in, then you've got a badass gun that moves like a Deimos.
These are all things that would be taken into consideration upon engaging in a project like this. If you're going to build a mobile cannon, it doesn't make too much logical sense to have the gun take up all the room. It's pretty obvious that the cannon wouldn't be the entire ship, just as it should be pretty obvious that a Mjolnir isn't all gun.
@Missile comment: Do note these missiles travel well in the range of anywhere from 300 to 900 m/s, making them very hard to stop. In my simulations, these have a 2/3 direct hit ratio, and even if they don't directly hit the target, they will still inflict considerable damage to the target by the time ship-board weapons can take them out.
@ Bomber comment: The larger bomber will have a much larger reactor, and armor will scale proportionately, taking that out of consideration. Weight of missile bays does not increase the same way weight of armor does when a ship is enlarged. Enlarged missile bays can carry more missiles. Sacrifice some loadout for engine space and problem solved.
Ursa = 6 Helios. Ursa X 2 = 12 Helios, or more depending on layout. Sacrifice some and add engines. Speed solved. 10 helios with more speed.
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I just said that it wouldn't. A Mjolnir is gun, reactor, armor. A Deimos retrofitted as a beam Monitor would be gun, reactor, engine, armor.
And by Monitor I pretty much mean a gun placed on a ship the size of an MGB.
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MGB?
And it wouldn't what? Your previous posts are all rhetorical questions, so I'm not really sure what you said wouldn't do whatever it was that it wouldn't do.
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Motor Gun Boat.
And if you're talking about my reference to Retail's High Noon, they were meant to be blatantly obvious points following other previous posts.
If you mean when I said this:
Try to make a Monitor the size of a FreeSpace Corvette with a powerful enough reactor to power the beam cannon AND the engines (Which also need to be large enough) to make it maneuver fast enough to bring the weapon to bear as well as making it armored enough to withstand more than one Helios impact.
And you said this:
These are all things that would be taken into consideration upon engaging in a project like this. If you're going to build a mobile cannon, it doesn't make too much logical sense to have the gun take up all the room. It's pretty obvious that the cannon wouldn't be the entire ship, just as it should be pretty obvious that a Mjolnir isn't all gun.
Yes, I know that it isn't going to be all gun, the Mjolnir isn't all gun either.
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Well, I strapped a Mjolnir to a Leviathan and it still couldn't kill a Demon. Sure, it could take down Molochs and Rakshasas just fine, but LReds just kicks its ass.
I don't think strapping something twice as powerful would do much better, honestly.
Making a massive, fast, flying beam cannon could be done, but I'd say it would likely be at the cost of armor and anti-fighter armament. Think one big frontal turret (LRBGreen), six flak guns, and the armor of an Aeolus on something the size of a Deimos. It would be effective if escorted, but on its own it's just gonna get pwnt.
Orbital defense cannons would work - for all we know, they could actually exist. You never actually see something bombing a planet, so I don't know if they're really needed. It'd probably be a better idea to make stuff like GTI Acherons which can be dragged around to jump nodes by something common, like an Argo.
Tactical Theater-Range Missiles... Well, I'd guess they could make something like that, but what would they use for a warhead? Do recall that even the Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce and doesn't provide that much damage. There's probably a reason you only get to use helios once in the campaign, and only against the Sathanas. If the GTVA could afford to deply them en masse, I would believe that you would see them in use against the NTF... Also, even with a 20km range for TTRMs, beams beat it. Beams, at maximum, can fire 30 km. (For some reason, the targeting computers can only do 4km though...)
As for heavier bombers - the Ursa costs as much as a small moon (FS Reference bible). Every Helios it carries is prohibitively expensive to produce. if you want it to be faster than the Ursa AND better defended, it's probably going to be illogically expensive.
The Colossus had adequate heatsinks for its designed purpose: hunting down destroyers and superdestroyers. It takes six Orions attacking it simultaneously to bring it down, and it'll take down a good number of them too. The Colossus was never intended to go against juggernauts: the GTVA never saw a Sathanas before the Second Shivan Incursion.
Stealth on the Pegasus and Ptah relies on its small, slim profile and low power output combined with sensor masking and ECM. Heck, small stealth fighters were just being prototyped (after the Loki failed). Stealth assault fighters would come later, but not in time to help the SSI.
All in all, these would be some good post-Capella ideas, but for the time of the Second Shivan Incursion, I doubt any of these would be able to be implemented, aside from oribtal defense cannons...which are just upscaled sentry guns.
It's nice and all to go 'Oh, we'll use Weapon X. It's Very Effective', but you need to take into account canon situations and limitations if you want it to be believeable.
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A flying gun sound very impractical. Generalization was the much more better way to go during pre-2nd Shivan Incursion periods. Generalized ships are easier to mass produce and can fill a variety of mission roles, ideal when you're lacking specialized ships. Sure some of the stuff you guys are suggesting might be useful against Shivans, but there was no need and when the Shivans came again, it was probably a little too late.
I don't see how an prohibitively expensive bomber would be any better than a frigate or corvette.
We did see land bombardments and also... star bombardments. (?) o_o
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Technically the Lilith is a flying gun.
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Technically the Lilith is a flying gun.
So is the Fenris/Leviathan, the beam charge glow against those ships looks bloody ridiculous. Like watching someone fire a Desert Eagle chambered in .44 next to someone firing a Beretta M9 (9x19mm, piss all against a .44).
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Those two aren't so much flying guns as the Lilith is however when you compare the damage output, which was what I mostly meant when I said "flying gun."
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It is SOOOO sad that I'm one of the rarity who actually posts possible ideas - and these are those waht're ignored.
(mentioning 1st and 2nd page)
Yeah, probably useless. but I guess still better than, for instance, the Kayser-firing Orions.
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It is SOOOO sad that I'm one of the rarity who actually posts possible ideas - and these are those waht're ignored.
(mentioning 1st and 2nd page)
Yeah, probably useless. but I guess still better than, for instance, the Kayser-firing Orions.
I wonder why the hell the Security Council didn't do something about the laser turrets onboard Capships.
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From an in-universe perspective, I just think it's impossible to do something, or impossible to do on a large scale.
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Doesn't the Aten have a Subach HL-7? (Or some other Vasudan cruiser, not good with Vasudan stuff.) If a fighter can change its primaries prior to launch relatively easily, and cruisers can mount primarys, I don't see why ships can't have Kaysers or Morning Stars.
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Given the choice of capships with Kaysers, Trebuchets and Tornados and fighters with Terran Turrets, MX-52's and Flak guns, or the way the GTVA armed the fleet, which way would you go?
It seems that the Security Council was too busy wasting money on the Big C to make the rest of the fleet armed fully with truly deadly weapons. Hell, they even claimed the Aeolus was too expensive, and saved some cash on the Hecate's and Mentu's anti-capship weaponry...
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Doesn't the Aten have a Subach HL-7? (Or some other Vasudan cruiser, not good with Vasudan stuff.) If a fighter can change its primaries prior to launch relatively easily, and cruisers can mount primarys, I don't see why ships can't have Kaysers or Morning Stars.
Something to do with shorter range compared to the other weapons, slower firerate (Somehow), and MASSIVE POWAH DRAINAGE (Again, somehow).
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The slower refire rate comes from the way turrets operate vs. how primary banks operate.
There's some random turret refire delay.
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Maby power constraints?
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Maby power constraints?
I keep saying that! For once someone agrees with me. :(
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Trying to find in-universe explanations for something that's clearly a gameplay/mechanic decision is what I find funny.
Capital ships shouldn't have any problem with the power output of light weaponry - ESPECIALLY since some weapons are clearly ammunition based.
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AFAIK turret delay is lengthened or shortened based on the difficulty you play at. You can add weapon flags that disable such fire wait alterations.
Besides, each gun turret has its own generator. If a fighter, dealing with shields, lasers, astrionics (trying to come up with a word that conveys the meaning "avionics for space ships"), and engines while being the same size as a turret, the turret should be able to handle fighter-grade weapons.
Just stick a conventional 3-stage thermonuclear warhead on the end of a TTRM and see how everyone down range deals with it. The reason the Helios is so expensive is that it's an antimatter warhead. Just go with a standard nuke. More bang for fewer bucks.
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A standard nuke is a Harbringer.
Its awesome against subsystems, and decent against hulls.
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True...
But if the Harbinger does the same damage as a 3-stage thermonuclear bomb, and it's only that size... the size of a TTRM means you could strap (potentially) a 4 or 5 stage weapon on the end of the missile. Much more bang. Much.
Most powerful 3-stage detonation ever: 50 Mt. A four or five stage would be insane.
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True...
But if the Harbinger does the same damage as a 3-stage thermonuclear bomb, and it's only that size... the size of a TTRM means you could strap (potentially) a 4 or 5 stage weapon on the end of the missile. Much more bang. Much.
Most powerful 3-stage detonation ever: 50 Mt. A four or five stage would be insane.
The Harbinger has a payload of 5000Mt.
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I'm pretty sure in game it was 50 Mt. Oh wait no I just checked the CB animation... damn... but it still only uses 3 salted fission warheads and a fusion accelerator. Add in more of that stuff and inside the game universe you've got one hell of a bang waiting to happen.
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You mean like...antimatter?
Then you get a Helios.
Expensive.
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You mean like...antimatter?
Then you get a Helios.
Expensive.
Comparing to, for instance, nuclear bombs, what are the strengths of FS weapons?
Exact questions:
1) Would a nuclear bomb destroy an Orion?
2) ...a Colly? A Sath?
3) What's the strength of a Harpoon...
4) MX-50...
5) a Meson bomb...
6) 1 shot from a laser compared to today's weaponry?
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You mean like...antimatter?
Then you get a Helios.
Expensive.
Comparing to, for instance, nuclear bombs, what are the strengths of FS weapons?
Exact questions:
1) Would a nuclear bomb destroy an Orion?
2) ...a Colly? A Sath?
3) What's the strength of a Harpoon...
4) MX-50...
5) a Meson bomb...
6) 1 shot from a laser compared to today's weaponry?
1. No.
2. Hell no.
3. Given it's a significant fraction of the yield of a Harbinger, nuclear-yield.
4. Similar.
5. Apocalyptic, extinction-level (I should think.)
6. Big.
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2. Hell no.
Heaven yes? :p
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2. Hell no.
Heaven yes? :p
Limbo wut?
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The Tsar Bomba is 50 Mt
A Harbringer is 5000 Mt
Today's nukes are nothing. The Harbringer is a nuke, and I'd assume that's the upper limit of it nuke tech, as they started making their antimatter bombs better afterwards.
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MEh...FS2 numbers are like SW numbers - thrown in there to be there without much thought. Basiecly redicolously overpowered....but I guess still saner than SW...
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That's because SW is a different universe.
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Here's my input on blockades:
|(
Ships come <-------- |( :beamz: capships, Mjolnirs, Whatever goes here shooting
out of here |( that way
|(
Knossos
That way you don't have to face the nasty fangs of the saths and ravanas, but I guess the ships would have to be all shooting at the same time to blast them before the shivans have a chance to jump out :b
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The reason why :v: didn't want to put Kaysers or Morningstars or Tornados or Trebuchets on warships is because they wanted to avoid seeing BoE.
Imagine if the Colossus had all its blob turrets and missile launchers replaced with the above. Put it alongside a Sathanas, and the next you know is that the Shivan Juggernaut will have its entire broadside weaponry smooshed.
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Not really, even the use of the Akheton on the Sathanas's subsystems is like trying to break apart a car-sized chunk of diamond with a twig (Yeah, what are the chances of finding one that big in the first place? :P ).
And the Trebuchets do no more than perhaps 5% subsystem damage to it (At least from what I see).
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Unless the Sathanas had similar weaponry...then it'd be two hunks floating around without guns.
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It takes about 4 Helios to kill one BFRed. FOUR. HELIOS. And that does about 2-5% Hull damage total. I remember that I once just weighted down the Control key, and turned on time compression. I came back 10 minutes real-time later, still shooting. The Sath is a real bugger.
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Unless the Sathanas had similar weaponry...then it'd be two hunks floating around without guns.
Again, it wouldn't. The only and ONLY weapons that do any severe subsystem damage to either two of these ships are the Helios. Kayser / Morningstar and Tornado / Trebuchet level weapons would do nothing more than scratch each other's paint.
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I don't know - you arm a bunch of fighters with the Maxim, you can snipe out turrets/subsystems with great ease - despite what TrashMan once argued at great length
Agree nothing is worse then a multi front war without the adequate resources or the will to carry it out.
Only an idiot fights a war on 2 fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots fights a war on 12 fronts
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the hattie is not round... the arrow like head is quite good in terms of scaring.. the problem is the body... it gets "fat" and thats will give everyone that impresion you are talking about.
Still as droid said... it's just a matter of time before someone htl's that model and then it will be something different indeed.
hattie to me looks like a Hoover (vacuum cleaner for US HLPers)
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check the credits from FS2, there you'll see a concept art of the hattie.
tell me what would you think about something like that in game.
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That would be nice as hell.
And a wingless Hecate looks fugly beyond comprehension. :D
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It takes about 4 Helios to kill one BFRed. FOUR. HELIOS. And that does about 2-5% Hull damage total. I remember that I once just weighted down the Control key, and turned on time compression. I came back 10 minutes real-time later, still shooting. The Sath is a real bugger.
:wtf: You DO know that it's impossible for a fighter to kill anything larger than a cruiser unless they use a weapon with the HUGE flag (i.e. Cyclops and Helios) right? Cause just rubber-banding the trigger isn't going to kill a Sath, EVER.
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Yeah, they'll sit at 1% after you time compress for 2 years.
The damage reduction is logarithmic beginning at 10% for HUGE and 75% for SUPERCAP.
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Unless, of course, you use SSLs :drevil:.
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But that's cheating and further breaking the laws of physics.
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But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
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It takes about 4 Helios to kill one BFRed. FOUR. HELIOS.
Two, if you're not doing it wrong. :p
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But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
It's not hard at all to get a Sath on your killcount. Simply tell your wingmen to ignore the Sath and engage fighters instead, disarm all the beams yourself, wait for the Colossus to beam it -- and voila, you have a Sath kill.
Beam damage doesn't count towards kills.
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Oh yeah. Forgot about that. :P
You gotta admit, though, it's pretty satisfying if you can just pull the trigger and watch it explode.
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Oh yeah. Forgot about that. :P
You gotta admit, though, it's pretty satisfying if you can just pull the trigger and watch it explode.
Indeed.
I like turning my primary weapons into AAA beams and doing strafing runs.
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The Question of the Day: What is white blindness compared to unparalleled destruction!! :p
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But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
I got that somehow by playing retail high noon, i got promoted twice in a row :D
It takes about 4 Helios to kill one BFRed. FOUR. HELIOS.
Two, if you're not doing it wrong. :p
Yeah, pop your warheads under 250 metres out from the side facing outwards from the centre of the beam cannon. But I don't mean attack from broadside, head-on but make sure the warheads hit the very outside tip and it should be down.
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No wonder I couldn't kill that corvette....
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Do note, however, that the other 49 guns of the Sathanas are not as resistant to four Trebuchets as the front beam cannons are.
...or Stilettos, for that matter. :nervous:
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Unless, of course, you use SSLs :drevil:.
Doesn't work.
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Do note, however, that the other 49 guns of the Sathanas are not as resistant to four Trebuchets as the front beam cannons are.
...or Stilettos, for that matter. :nervous:
Regardless, they still are pretty resistant to Trebs.
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But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
I got that somehow by playing retail high noon, i got promoted twice in a row :D
You get two promotions? I don't think I've ever played that mission without getting the kill and I don't get squat. :nervous:
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But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
I got that somehow by playing retail high noon, i got promoted twice in a row :D
You get two promotions? I don't think I've ever played that mission without getting the kill and I don't get squat. :nervous:
Actually I think I got promoted once in Bearbaiting and then again in High Noon.
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2. Hell no.
Heaven yes? :p
Limbo wut?
Hangala pungicingi?
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One Sath gives 10,000 points. You'd go right from Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, I believe. LC requires 10,000 points. And I am going to go "farm" Sathanes, all the way to admiral. BTW, I love JAD 3. The mission with the 85 shieldless Lokis boosted me right up to Triple Ace. I had gotten my Double Ace a few missions before.
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2. Hell no.
Heaven yes? :p
Limbo wut?
Hangala pungicingi?
Purgatory Shut The F**k Up and stay on topic.
But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
I got that somehow by playing retail high noon, i got promoted twice in a row :D
You get two promotions? I don't think I've ever played that mission without getting the kill and I don't get squat. :nervous:
Cant remember what i got promoted for but using the BFRed via the changed weapon's cheat, i made Captain by the end of 1 playthrough of the FS2MC and reached commodore after playing through the Campaign 4 times.
Hell! I even got the Iceni on my killboard
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I get to Lt. Commander by the end of one game usually but never from killing the Sathanas.
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The highest I got was Commander in FS1.
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Highest without cheating is Lt. Jr. Grade on Very Easy.
Highest while cheating is Lieutenant on Insane.
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2. Hell no.
Heaven yes? :p
Limbo wut?
Hangala pungicingi?
Purgatory Shut The F**k Up and stay on topic.
But it's fun. :P Besides, having a Sath on your killcount is pretty freakin' cool.
I got that somehow by playing retail high noon, i got promoted twice in a row :D
You get two promotions? I don't think I've ever played that mission without getting the kill and I don't get squat. :nervous:
Cant remember what i got promoted for but using the BFRed via the changed weapon's cheat, i made Captain by the end of 1 playthrough of the FS2MC and reached commodore after playing through the Campaign 4 times.
Hell! I even got the Iceni on my killboard
Please stop quote embedding. you might notice how annoying it is.
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Yeah. We don't need another Milk thread! :mad:
...and I call it "chain quoting".
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The highest I got was Commander in FS1.
Lt. Commander, medium difficulty without cheats.
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The highest I got was Commander in FS1.
Lt. Commander, medium difficulty without cheats.
I'm working on Commander, Switching between Hard and Medium, mostly Hard.
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I forget...
Anyways, what's this topic about? :blah:
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I forget...
Anyways, what's this topic about? :blah:
What Command, or the GTVA Security Council should've done in FS2.
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Another theory:
They should have sent a science cruiser and an AWACS, nothing more. the Shivans might have not even noticed they're invaded.
The whole fleet that did invade should have been placed near the Knossos, to give any invaders a nice, colorfull, beamy welcome.
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For me I think Command did the absolute best they could - Because they weren't even trying to do what we think they were trying to do in the first place.
I think Command was trying to get the ETAK plans from the NTF, not just destroy the Iceni outright and crush the rebellion. If so they would probably have deployed the Colossus sooner. In fact, since Epsilon Pegasi really had nothing to do with ETAK at all (I guess there was no Ancient technology for the NTF to plunder), Command decided that they should just end the Epsilon Pegasi invasion there and then, instead of farting around and letting the NTF get Ancient records like they did in Deneb and Alpha Centauri.
Makes no sense, I know, but that's what I think.
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As usual, I'm with Snail.
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Why would the NTF do a better job at gathering and interpeting Ancient data and tech, then the whole of the GTA or GTVA? Why would they let the enemy do that, isntead of doing it themselves.
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Why would the NTF do a better job at gathering and interpeting Ancient data and tech, then the whole of the GTA or GTVA? Why would they let the enemy do that, isntead of doing it themselves.
Bosch. Who was clearly in possession of some old GTI information that others didn't have easy access to.
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Why would the NTF do a better job at gathering and interpeting Ancient data and tech, then the whole of the GTA or GTVA? Why would they let the enemy do that, isntead of doing it themselves.
Convenience. It's not good for the GTVI/GTVA to be doing this stuff, since officially this entire GTI research project is banned, or was at least 'buried' (in Bosch's words) by the GTVA. If you have a convenient dude who is going to do it for you and has already made some progress there's really no reason to stop him.
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Not to mention that the GTI stuff was pretty much Taboo, as it was associated with the Hades rebellion.
Which is probably why they buried it in the first place - probably public pressure.
However, the NTF provides a convenient excuse - the GTVA can just use what the NTF finds, saying that they're just spying on the enemy or something.
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Makes me think Bosch had a "Cigarette Smoking Man" type character watching him...
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Makes me think Bosch had a "Cigarette Smoking Man" type character watching him...
Lt. Rusk? ;7
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Lt. Rusk? ;7
who?
Edit: Nevermind found him
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Communications officer on the Iceni. Someone like him (low ranking but still close to him) would likely be a mole.
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Whos Rusk?
And why \ when was the GTI research banned? It seems counter productive.
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Whos Rusk?
Comm. officer on the Iceni.
And why \ when was the GTI research banned? It seems counter productive.
Why? Because the GTVA are idiots. Or because the general populace didn't like the idea of reusing the knowledge.
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Comm. officer on the Iceni.
I hope you meant "Communications" and not "Commanding"... :nervous:
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Then it would be CDR.
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Why would the NTF do a better job at gathering and interpeting Ancient data and tech, then the whole of the GTA or GTVA? Why would they let the enemy do that, isntead of doing it themselves.
Bosch. Who was clearly in possession of some old GTI information that others didn't have easy access to.
My theory is that GTVA wanted to extrat this tech AND to deal with their inner enemies, thus asked Bosch - an operative - to create a fake rebellion and test Shivan tech. Note that they didn't asked Snipes and Alpha 1 to destroy the Iceni, and Command ordered to ignore the ship in Return to Babel, too.
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My theory is that Bosch broke away from the GTVA for what he felt was a just cause, not knowing he was actually a pawn being manipulated for a darker, more sinister cause. :drevil:
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My theory is that GTVA wanted to extrat this tech AND to deal with their inner enemies, thus asked Bosch - an operative - to create a fake rebellion and test Shivan tech. Note that they didn't asked Snipes and Alpha 1 to destroy the Iceni, and Command ordered to ignore the ship in Return to Babel, too.
But...if Bosh is the leader of the NTF...how is the rebellion fake?
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Uh yeah...
And the GTVA took some serious losses. I doubt they'd be stupid enough to bring something like that onto themselves knowingly...
Unless the GTVA high command is like Palpatine...
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Uh yeah...
And the GTVA took some serious losses. I doubt they'd be stupid enough to bring something like that onto themselves knowingly...
Unless the GTVA high command is like Palpatine...
Not all of GTVA High Command. Just Head-CM2. Yes. He's the reason for everything. Everything.
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:lol:
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My theory is that GTVA wanted to extrat this tech AND to deal with their inner enemies, thus asked Bosch - an operative - to create a fake rebellion and test Shivan tech. Note that they didn't asked Snipes and Alpha 1 to destroy the Iceni, and Command ordered to ignore the ship in Return to Babel, too.
But...if Bosh is the leader of the NTF...how is the rebellion fake?
The rebellion isn't fake... just Bosch is an operative and, in the end, would have cooperated with the GTVA (his deployers!) to lure the rebel fleet into a trap. He was just an aid to find the rebellious people.
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The rebellion isn't fake... just Bosch is an operative and, in the end, would have cooperated with the GTVA (his deployers!) to lure the rebel fleet into a trap. He was just an aid to find the rebellious people.
I seriously doubt this from his monologues.
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The rebellion isn't fake... just Bosch is an operative and, in the end, would have cooperated with the GTVA (his deployers!) to lure the rebel fleet into a trap. He was just an aid to find the rebellious people.
I really don't know how you came to this conclusion.
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The rebellion isn't fake... just Bosch is an operative and, in the end, would have cooperated with the GTVA (his deployers!) to lure the rebel fleet into a trap. He was just an aid to find the rebellious people.
I seriously doubt this from his monologues.
Why? I guess that the GTA (and not GTVA) wants to ally with the Shivans against the Vasudans (by the way, the reason behind the SOC mission /Dive, dive dive!/ was that they tried to find Bosch).
Monologue 1: Nothing against the GTA.
No. 2: He has enemies, that's all. Calls his own rebellion an "army of stupid cattle". He states that "...my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans" - THUS he tries to help the Terran-Shivan alliance against the Vasudans.
"...and soon the alliance will learn the method behind my madness." <- This is a debatable(?) sentence, but I can't say that this breaks everything.
No. 3: Nothing again. He mentions that whether this ruse was useful or not (Fool's Crusade).
No. 4: He is happy that he achieved his goals. Tho he didn't expect that he'll be carried away.
Fact list will come soon!
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The GTI said sod the Shivans and kill the Vasudans.
No. 2: He has enemies, that's all. Calls his own rebellion an "army of stupid cattle". He states that "...my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans" - THUS he tries to help the Terran-Shivan alliance against the Vasudans.
This just supports that he's following what the GTI wanted.
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I am writing an article about the topic. Soon to post it.
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The GTI said sod the Shivans and kill the Vasudans.
No, they didn't. You're mixing G-canon with real canon.
(G-canon = Goober/Galemp canon :P)
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Isn't that the reason why you destroy the Hades even on the original Silent Threat?
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Isn't that the reason why you destroy the Hades even on the original Silent Threat?
Nope, you kill it just for being there in the original. The entire Zod hating thing is completely non-canon.
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I need to stop hating that campaign...
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Isn't that the reason why you destroy the Hades even on the original Silent Threat?
Nope, you kill it just for being there in the original. The entire Zod hating thing is completely non-canon.
What do you think? GTI overthrows the GTA and than lives in peace with the PVN? Come on...
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What do you think? GTI overthrows the GTA and than lives in peace with the PVN? Come on...
I'm talking about the canonicity of statements. Not the judgment behind them.
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What do you think? GTI overthrows the GTA and than lives in peace with the PVN? Come on...
I'm talking about the canonicity of statements. Not the judgment behind them.
I just mean that the GTI - as a logical sequence of events - will try to overthrow the Vasudans, no matter what.
Anyway, the thread is up: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61117.0.html
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Besides Vanilla ST briefings mention GTI plans to dissolve the PVN-GTA Alliance - not in great detail. They jus mention dissolving the GTA Treaty (which i presume is the Treaty with the Zods)
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Besides Vanilla ST briefings mention GTI plans to dissolve the PVN-GTA Alliance - not in great detail. They jus mention dissolving the GTA Treaty (which i presume is the Treaty with the Zods)
Does it say that?
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Besides Vanilla ST briefings mention GTI plans to dissolve the PVN-GTA Alliance - not in great detail. They jus mention dissolving the GTA Treaty (which i presume is the Treaty with the Zods)
Does it say that?
Command Briefing for "The Return to Ross 128"
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Besides Vanilla ST briefings mention GTI plans to dissolve the PVN-GTA Alliance - not in great detail. They jus mention dissolving the GTA Treaty (which i presume is the Treaty with the Zods)
Does it say that?
Command Briefing for "The Return to Ross 128"
Could you give me the quote I don't have the original ST missions on me right now.
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Could you give me the quote I don't have the original ST missions on me right now.
Just checked the Mission itself.
the gamefaq walkthrough that i used originally messed the line up.
This walkthrough renders the line as "dissovle the GTA treaty"
The actual line from Vanilla Silent Treat specifically states the the GTI Rouges plan to "dissolve the Terran-Vasudan Alliance"
note: "Alliance" could have been "treaty"...
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So I was right then about GTI saying sod Shivans and kill Vasudans?
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Yes you were...
I makes me wonder if the Trigger Happy Terran pilots who caused the skirmish at the beginning of Vanilla ST were trigger Happy Co-conspirators...
That would have been a nice plot-point to include in ST:R...but oh-well.
Besides i suspect that GTI started the Great War. My personal theory is that when GTI first encountered the Shivans and tried to communicate, poor Translation resulted in the GTI effectivly "giving the finger" to the Lucifer's Captain. In Shivan Culture, is a big no-no that usually results in the death of the offending party and his/her allies, unless a formal appology is made. Since the GTI were unable to do this it resulted in the Great War.
Now the Moral of this story is that If I were Command, i would have kept complete control over the GTI instead of letting them have as much independance as they did. I've seen enough X-Files, Stargate and Babylon-5 to know that you should never let agencies like that run independant of the Government.
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Besides i suspect that GTI started the Great War. My personal theory is that when GTI first encountered the Shivans and tried to communicate, poor Translation resulted in the GTI effectivly "giving the finger" to the Lucifer's Captain. In Shivan Culture, is a big no-no that usually results in the death of the offending party and his/her allies, unless a formal appology is made. Since the GTI were unable to do this it resulted in the Great War.
That's a decent theory, but it'd essentially be copying the exact same circumstances that led to the 14-Year War. Given what we know about the Shivans, I suspect that any initial contact by the GTI would have led to conflict no matter how it was conducted...and contact may not have even been necessary, as the Shivans were presumably aware of the ever-growing Terran and Vasudan subspace traffic.
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The GTI said sod the Shivans and kill the Vasudans.
No, they didn't. You're mixing G-canon with real canon.
(G-canon = Goober/Galemp canon :P)
They didn't in G-canon either. :p They said kill the Vasudans, but not until after they've helped us kill the Shivans. They were smart enough to realize they couldn't fight the Vasudans and Shivans at the same time. :)
I makes me wonder if the Trigger Happy Terran pilots who caused the skirmish at the beginning of Vanilla ST were trigger Happy Co-conspirators...
That would have been a nice plot-point to include in ST:R...but oh-well.
At one point it was, but we decided it was too confusing and didn't really add much to the story, so we took it out.