Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: sigtau on August 13, 2009, 02:51:22 pm
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Just wondering what your primary/secondary weapon pairing of choice is.
Mine's dual Prom-S/Harpoon/Tornado.
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Maxim / Kayser
Tornado / Trebs
For the frakkin win! :mad: RAWR!
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Maxim / Kayser / Harpoon / Harpoon
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Subach/PromS/Tempest/Harp or Treb depending on the mission.
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dual Subach - Rockeye / Hornet
dual Kayser - Rockeye / Treb
Subach / Kayser - Rockeye / Treb
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Maxim / Kayser
Tornado / Trebs
For the frakkin win! :mad: RAWR!
^Need more like this :p
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Kayser / Maxim + 2x Tornado (i love 'em!). Almost always have it when i'm flying an Erinyes. Arm a wing of them like that and you can disarm anything if not tear it apart, though i do admit you gotta keep an eye on your power a lot of the time. Usually i choose between using the Kayser or the Maxim; i very rarely go for the double whammy as it sucks your power dry in seconds.
Failing that, i find pairing a powerfull gun like the Prom S with the Subach is a good mix. I can use the subach for bomb interception and stuff like that.
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Maxim + Kayser; Harpoon + Trebuchet
I've never been a fan of the Tornado... tend to keep the extra shots afforded by the Harpoon. On the other hand, Kayser + Subach isn't as stupid as it sounds, and can be fired for a pretty long time.
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Mekhu/Mekhu
then with Harpoons, tornadoes or trebs
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myrmi
kaiser / balor
tornado
tornado
tempest
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Subachs/Mehkus + Tempests
Kayser/Maxim + Harpoons/Trebuchets
Depending on what's available. I like to be able to kill cruisers/transports, so I generally go with a bank of Tempests unless I get a Maxim.
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Mekhus in a 4-gun bank if I have it, Prometheus S otherwise or on Terran ships. I never take equal weapons in a 4+2 configuration; firing from the larger or both banks has the same dps. Instead, the second bank will get some long range stuff... Maxims if compatible and I want to take cheap shots at capital ships, Morningstars otherwise.
Tempests in the smallest bank for some added punch at close range, to compensate for the lack of Kaysers (which I don't like because of their energy demands).
If I have another bank, I'll load it up with Trebuchets... long-range stopping power and decent anti-subsystem use.
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Kayser/Prom S
Tornado/Harpoon
All purpose loadout.
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Prom S or Kayser depending on power needs (i.e. number of guns I'm supporting), Harpoons for extended missions, Tornados for short ones, Trebuchets for bomber intercept or disarming duty. Mix and match as necessary.
Except the Trebs and Tornados. If only one bank of Trebs is being brought along, the other always goes to Harpoons.
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Kayser/Prom S
Tornado/Harpoon
All purpose loadout.
Sounds good to me. Maybe swap something out with Trebuchet if the mission calls for it. But I usually wind up flying with the mission defaults most of the time anyway.
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Kayser doesn't really work all that hot on Insane all the time...
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If it's an assault mission, I switch out the harpoons for trebs and the Prom S for Maxim. Those are about the only changes I make.
This, of course, does not work for bombing missions.
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dual Subach - Rockeye / Hornet
Goddamn you're one insane bastard. :P
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It works against anything other than the fast Shivan fighters. And even then, just spam Tempests and you'll hit something.
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Really? I remember being the one that suddenly saw Harpoons randomly change course mid-pursuit of a ship from its six after RC1 was released, and no countermeasures or any attempt at dodging was made, with my luck Hornets might as well turn around and hit me instead of whatever I try to launch them at.
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For fighters without a quad primary bank, Maxim and Prometheus S, although I hardly ever use the latter on medium or hard. For fighters with such a bank, Kayser on medium and Prometheus S on insane (on hard, it depends on the fighter), with a Maxim in the other bank. The Prometheus's extra range and lower power usage make it superior to the Kayser on insane.
As far as missiles go, Tempests are always a must, and I add either Harpoons or Trebuchets depending on the mission.
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Depending on the no. of gun banks I'm supporting, I use a Prom S coupled with a Subach HL or a Maxim. As said above, high energy consumption weapons notably the Kayser aren't that great when it comes to the harder difficulties.
For missiles, never leave home without a bank of Stellitos.
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Stilettos are great.
MEKHU MEKHU MEKHU.
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dual Subach - Rockeye / Hornet
Goddamn you're one insane bastard. :P
for the missions until the kayser is available Subachs are enough, all proms fire too slow, i will fit Maxim if i'm expecting to tackle capships. convoy escorts tempests are invaluable for shredding the bigger bombers (*cough*seraphim*caught*)
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Stillettos are unnecessary he you have a Maxim due to the 4k range. That's a home two and a half clicks outside the longest triple a around. . .
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Eh, Hornets and Tornados do very nicely against the big bombers.
If anything, those are the only ships smaller than cruisers that they can hit. (Not counting freighters, of course.)
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Hornets have always had pursuit issues, but Tornadoes usually do just fine at snuffing fighters.
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SIngle player/Multi Coop:
Maxims/PromSs
Trebs/Torns
..or something.
Multi TvT/Dog
Kaysers/Morning stars
2 out of Torns,Rocks,Temps
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dual Subach - Rockeye / Hornet
Goddamn you're one insane bastard. :P
for the missions until the kayser is available Subachs are enough, all proms fire too slow, i will fit Maxim if i'm expecting to tackle capships. convoy escorts tempests are invaluable for shredding the bigger bombers (*cough*seraphim*caught*)
I was referring to your secondary choices.
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Maxim / Kayser
Tornado / Trebs
For the frakkin win! :mad: RAWR!
This, the Trebuchets and Maxim can rape anything below the size of a corvette through quickly disabling it and then pounding away, and using Tornados is the same as pressing ~ + K for fighters.
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rockeyes are useful if you need to quickly lob of a couple of missiles before switching targets or spam the enemy when charging in. also from close range its an near sure fire hit on big bombers and twinned strips the rear shields nicely for the cannons to work
Hornets are useful when killing/disarming/disabling cruisers. Fighters and bombers are mainly cannon fire outside of select situations.
BTW apart from "Game of tag" does anyone actually use TAG missiles
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Only on missions I'm forced to.
JAD has two.
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TAGs are ridiculously useful in Hell's Kitchen in multi too.
For TvT there's a couple of loadouts that are valid, anything else is sub-optimal/borderline terrible.
PromS/Kayser (*Assumes light to mid-fighter, though can be used in heavier fighters).
PromS/MorningS (*Assumes mid to heavy fighter).
Tempest are the only valid multi secondary - Rockeyes can occasionally be useful for dumping into someone's path to disarm them (*herc mk2, ares, erinyes).
Aspect seeking missiles are beyond useless against skilled pilots.
Subach isn't worth the fire control bank/energy of it's shots, if you have energy problems, shoot less unless you're sure you'll hit, PromS/Kay = THE Squadwar combo.
Morning star is more of a tactical combo used to pin people to hit them with missiles (*less killed pilots will use this to get aspect seekers off, more skilled pilots will obliterate the poor victim with tempest).
Maxim gets used against capships but is more or less useless elsewhere, but honestly if you're gonna take a subach just to link it up to a PromS or Kayser, just leave the bank empty and fire less. It's more efficient.
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TAGs rock in the right circumstances. Rock hard.
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Why so much love for the tornado? It just misses usually, compared to a harpoon. Harpoons and trebuchets for the win.
Prometheus cannon 2x is ideal for dogfighting. I usually let bombers mess with capitals, since that's their job. Space superiority is mine. :cool:
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I rarely ever miss with Tornados, even with perpendicular trajectories against Dragons and Manticores I'll still hit them.
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Why so much love for the tornado? It just misses usually, compared to a harpoon. Harpoons and trebuchets for the win.
wtf game are you playing? The Tornado is the wish-me-dead. :P
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You might think I'm crazy, but...
Circe+Tempest in a Thoth.
I have won every dogfight I've ever been in with that combo.
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You might think I'm crazy, but...
Circe+Tempest in a Thoth.
I have won every dogfight I've ever been in with that combo.
Reminds me of when I dogfighted in an FSPort match, and won, with an ML-16/Shield Breaker combo.
And MX-50/Hornet.
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Without the Kayser and Trebuchet, my pairings are:
Subach / Subach or Prometheus S / Prometheus S
Tempest / Tempest (/ Tempest), Harpoon / Hornet, Harpoon / Tornado or Hornet / Cyclops / Cyclops
With the Kayser and Trebuchet, my pairing is:
Kayser / Kayser
Tornado / Trebuchet
In multiplayer, my pairing is:
Subach / Kayser
Rockeye / Rockeye
Circe+Tempest in a Thoth.
Ooh, damn you, I saw how you 0wned everyone (including me) with that combo. :hopping:
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Circe+Tempest in a Thoth.
I have won every dogfight I've ever been in with that combo.
That sounds really interesting. I think I'll try that out in my next dogfight.
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It's annoying that (if I recall correctly) the main times for multi are when I'm not able to use the computer (read: very late night/dark part of the morning my time). I would like to go in a dogfight with lots of people to see what you use.
But I'm going off on a tangent. I like to use a mix of Subach+Prometheus S/Kayser and Harpoon+Tornado when I'm using fighters.
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If you happen to find yourself in a match where everyone has given themselves Kaysers and Maxims, it might be an interesting choice to choose the Lamprey. :nervous:
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Snail, your sig is slowly deterorating. :P
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If you happen to find yourself in a match where everyone has given themselves Kaysers and Maxims, it might be an interesting choice to choose the Lamprey. :nervous:
You used that on me to great effect once. Half the time, I found myself running out of energy. :)
Snail, your sig is slowly deterorating. :P
What, the "vectron" and "wai" bits? :p
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Herc 2:
Maxim/Kaiser
Harpoon/Tempest
Maxims shred turrets, the Kaiser knocks down fighters.
Harpoons are good by themselves; Tempests are used in conjunction with the Kaisers (or with the Maxim while assaulting a cruiser). Anything you're shooting at will soon not exist...
-Thaeris
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By vectrons teeth!
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What, the "vectron" and "wai" bits? :p
Yes. For awhile I thought Dekker was screwing with it, but then the Wai came along. :P
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Subach-Kayser
Harp-Hornet
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Myrmidon with dual Prometheus-Rs and Hornets in all 3 banks :pimp:
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Myrmidon with dual Prometheus-Rs and Hornets in all 3 banks :pimp:
dual Prometheus-Rs
dual Prometheus-Rs
dual Prometheus-Rs
dual Prometheus-Rs
Are you that good of a sharpshooter? :shaking:
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You wouldn't want to sharpshoot with a Prometheus R anyway, it's awful.
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Sigtau, you make me laugh. :lol:
But yeah, the Prometheus R isn't all that good a weapon. It may look powerful if combined with a Subach, because it gives the impression that you're doing a spam attack, but it isn't really. Dual Subachs are slightly better, and that's what I use if I can't use the Prometheus S, Maxim, Circe or Kayser.
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Don't worry I was kidding, the R is hands down the worst non-specialized primary in the game. The hornets have the worst missile tracking for an aspect-seeking missile. And the Myrmidon is 100% outclassed by the Perseus and arguably the Erinyes.
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I like the subach.
I did experiment with weapon combos before though.
Maxim + morning star. They both have the same rate of fire so they're absolutely great to link together. Morning star takes out shields and maxim takes out the hull. I stayed away from it because a target that gets shaken up by the morning star takes longer to kill rather than a ship just trying to run away from you.
Circe + Prometheus R. Depending on what you hit dead on, it can be a one hit kill. One hit kills with this combination usually worked on light fighters. On non light fighters, it incurred some very good damage. I imagine this weapon combo would be even better when it's circe + kayser.
Subach + Akheton SDG. This one has it's uses. It's also pretty effective at disabling fighters. The subach being an all purpose weapon combined with the subsystem disruptor that's great for taking out shields and subsystems...it's weird to use. Basically you punch through shields pretty fast with this one, then the fighter your chasing starts suffering from subsystem failure depending on what subsystems you happen to be hitting. Most of the time you end up taking out the engines on a fighter really fast and maybe their radar too. You use this combination if you don't want any kills. You end up in situations where you have to kill all enemy fighters, and all you can do is disable them really fast and move on to the next while your wingmates kill your paraplegics taking your kills.
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The hornets have the worst missile tracking for an aspect-seeking missile.
Perhaps, but they can still be very dangerous on slow targets. Watch how the Basilisks use them.
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Prom S/Hornets/Harpoons/Tornados.
I like to use Hornets to pummel cruisers. Nothing kills cruisers faster. Well. Except for maybe Tempests and bombs.
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The hornets have the worst missile tracking for an aspect-seeking missile.
Perhaps, but they can still be very dangerous on slow targets. Watch how the Basilisks use them.
Yeah, I cringe every time I see a wing of Hornets jump into a mission where I'm protecting freighters or transports. At least you can shoot down bombs, but those things just tear light targets apart.
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Harpoons are good by themselves; Tempests are used in conjunction with the Kaisers (or with the Maxim while assaulting a cruiser). Anything you're shooting at will soon not exist...
You can use Maxim/Tempests against fighters as well, which can actually be more effective than the Kayser against many types of AI fighters (unless you have a quad gun bank). My online co-op kill counts went up significantly in several missions when I started using the Maxim on fighters.
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And the Myrmidon is 100% outclassed by the Perseus and arguably the Erinyes.
I must contest this. The Myrm is only outclassed by about 50%. Just ask QD about that ;)
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I would actually consider using the Myrmidon more if I could mount the Mekhu HL-7 instead of the Subach. I've never used the Myrm in a situation where I could mount it with the Kayser, so when I have used it, I've filled all banks with the Subach. By appropriately compensating for the height of the primary banks, the Myrmidon is actually a very good gunfighter. If the right banks are loaded with tempests, you're going to do a lot of damage. The biggest flaw of the Myrmidon in my opinion is that you can't carry Harpoons.
-Thaeris
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I hate the no Harpoons on a Myrm. Those are my premier bomb killer.
And they're not to bad fighter to fighter, no matter what QuantumDelta says.
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That tightly-grouped quad bank does pack a significant punch, even with the Subach, since you're probably going to hit your target with all four bolts if your aim is on. As someone who normally doesn't put a whole lot of stock in secondaries, I've never had any major complaints flying it, though I do admit that having Harpoons as an option would be welcome.
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Quad bank? Quad bank ONLY?
When I use the Myrmidon, I select the same cannon for all banks, then link all cannons to fire at once! This is why I like to use the Subach, as it does a fair amount of damage while having a good rate of fire. I'd much prefer the Mekhu in the Myrmidon, though, as with the higher ROF, this would compensate for the decrease thereof when all guns are set to fire. Not to mention the slightly greater range...
-Thaeris
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And the Myrmidon is 100% outclassed by the Perseus and arguably the Erinyes.
I must contest this. The Myrm is only outclassed by about 50%. Just ask QD about that ;)
I prefer the Myrmidon to the Perseus simply because it turns slower and has six gunpoints. I can never cope with flying the Perseus because it turns too fast.
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I prefer the Myrmidon to the Perseus simply because it turns slower and has six gunpoints. I can never cope with flying the Perseus because it turns too fast.
Eh. I can't cope with the Ares and get somewhat irritated by the Myrmi and Herc for that same reason.
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I love the Perseus its speed and agility represent what a fighter is, tbh i feel bogged down in the heavier craft
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The myrm isn't terrible but it has several downsides;
Too slow a turn speed.
Presents too big a target.
Only one bank of it's secondaries is usefully alligned (otherwise the missiles all fly out of different holes, it's a bit difficult to maintain a steady stream of the only truly good dogfighting secondary; tempests).
The first primary bank (the dual bank) is too high to be effectively useful vs an equal skilled pilot turning at the same speed unless you're pulling up (which isn't actually very often vs joystick pilots, because it's naturally easier to dive, you can roll into it so you end up asif you're pulling up relative to them but it can take too long).
Other than that it's pretty ok, definitely not my dogfight ship of choice though, only /really/ useful with a morning star in the top bank.
Unless you're purely shooting down bombs or something, I rank subach right along with prom r btw :<
Perseus/Uly/Loki are very high skill requirement craft (ie; not great in rookie hands) but they tend to outperform all the others in the hands of someone who really knows how to use them.
Eri is the 2-4v2-4 fighter of choice.
The Mk2 is often used as support to the Eri (because Eri's are so dangerous they can't be ignored, which leaves the Mk2 to sit at range with MornS and secondary spam, not my fave tactic tho :P)
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The myrm isn't terrible but it has several downsides;
Too slow a turn speed.
Presents too big a target.
Actually the Myrm doesn't turn slowly, it climbs slowly (and dives). Its left to right turn is pretty average for a fighter but it's up/down is horrendous.
Also is it really that big a target? I hear everyone saying that but when I'm shooting at them I don't exactly have an easy time. And easier time than some fighters to be sure, but not others . . .
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Most dogfighting takes place over all 3 axis heavily ;\
And yea, because most of it's target profile is from above/below in 1on1 or 2on2 most of your target view of it is from above or below whilst moving to oneside or the other.
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I'll have to start playing online someday... a good deal of the stated preferences stem from multiplayer games... which I've never been a part of.
Although the Herc 2 is my favorite, I found the Ares to be acceptable as a gunfighter when properly handled. Maxims in the first bank and a good all-round primary in the second bank (Kaysers/PromS) give it a great punch. When it comes to secondaries I tend to stick with dogfighting munitions like Tempests and Harpoons as I've said before.
-Thaeris
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I like the Erinyes with W-Kaiser for primary weapons and Harpoons and Trebuchets of secondaries
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Am I the only one in here who can't use Tempests to save his life? :p
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In Missions: Kaiser/Prometheus S + Harpoon/Trebuchet
In Multi-player: Kaiser/Subach + Tempest/Tornado for those embarassing 'Collide-and-flail' moments that most find awkward, but i make deadly :D
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Am I the only one in here who can't use Tempests to save his life? :p
I can't even kill anything in multiplayer. :wakka:
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Am I the only one in here who can't use Tempests to save his life? :p
Am I the only one in here that doesn't like Kaysers? I'll take Prometheus S over kaysers anyday. Kaysers suck power too fast and Prom-S have much superior range over any other general purpose weapon.
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Am I the only one in here who can't use Tempests to save his life? :p
Am I the only one in here that doesn't like Kaysers? I'll take Prometheus S over kaysers anyday. Kaysers suck power too fast and Prom-S have much superior range over any other general purpose weapon.
and is got a slower rate of fire which dont suit my playing style
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Depends entirely on difficulty level for me. Some campaigns are balanced to be almost unplayable above medium; here Kayser compatibility is a major draw for me when it comes to selecting my craft. If it's playble on hard/insane, I prefer efficiency over sheer power.
Regarding the Myrmidon: I find it not very survivable at all. While it's not that sluggish or large, it doesn't have the shields to make those traits acceptable. I generally pick it only if I'm not worried about my own safety and just need to do my job in time (it offers a good combination of speed and firepower).
Regarding weapon loadout: Equal banks on a Myrmidon gives you no dps advantage over just using the 4-gun bank and wider spread. I could understand the appeal if you want to carefully aim each shot and hit with 6 Prometheus S at the same time but a 4+2 loadout generally favours a split... if you have 4 Subachs for efficiency, you can get a little more firepower or juggling utility by coupling them with Kaysers/Morning Stars without truly outrageous energy requirements.
*
Lokis are the top Terran dogfighting craft for me... small enough, speedy enough, great afterburners, small secondary payload is not that much of a drawback if you just want some Tempests to speed up a kill. The biggest problem: The Perseus does that job almost as well and can carry some form of homing missiles at the same time.
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Am I the only one in here who can't use Tempests to save his life? :p
Am I the only one in here that doesn't like Kaysers? I'll take Prometheus S over kaysers anyday. Kaysers suck power too fast and Prom-S have much superior range over any other general purpose weapon.
and is got a slower rate of fire which dont suit my playing style
Not as slow as the Prometheus, it's four shots per second as opposed to three.
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I'm a Prometheus whore, I never could get good with the Kayser. Though, I miss the Banshee from FS1. That was a great weapon for the second primary bank in a Herc. :(
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The Banshee was a piece of junk... a lot less powerful than the Kayser of FS2 and even less efficient.
Now 4 Avengers + 2 Flails or S-Breakers really was something... arguably better than any anti-fighter loadout of FS2.
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Yeah... There nothing like Avenger & Flail combo in FS2
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If I'm bored, I lower difficulty (a lot) and use dual akehtons and full banks of Helios/cyclops.
It's fun to disable fighters and blow them quite a ways away.
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No, the Myrm is not too survivable, but in the first SOC loop mission I think it's the only reasonable choice of fighter you get (when playing at medium difficulty or higher). The Herc is too sluggish (and too big a target) and the Loki is not durable enough. Only the Myrmidon fits in between. Unfortunately the choice of arms is rather limited with the Myrmidon (especially with the NTF), so if you try and shoot out the beam turrets of the Sobek you'll be in for a tough time.
-Thaeris
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However, the beams of the Iceni do a little bit better job on those higher difficulties. Sobek went down in one salvo on medium. It was actually kind of scary, in a way.
I should qualify that, all of the fighters were shooting at it too, and all of the beams the Iceni fired hit.
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Perhaps it's just the current FSU MediaVP set... but given the condition that I've gotten both the Hinton and Iceini away from the immediate threat, all the fighters guard the Hinton... and disregard the Icieni. This leaves just you to stop an entire malevolent asteroid from pummeling that bloody frigate back to the stone age! :mad:
-Thaeris
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i found that the hinton and iceni keep crashing on mine
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That has never happened to me.
Ok well, it happened once - the Hinton ran into the Iceni (and lost like 1% health), bounced off, the Iceni escaped, and then the Hinton follows. No harm done.
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Now, if loadouts in other mods is brought up, Blue Planet would be a good candidate for discussion.
In this case, the Myrmidon becomes quite awesome due to the Balor. Load all primary banks with the cannon and dump all power from guns into shields and engines. Even with both banks set to fire, the ROF is still spectacular and power usage is so low that you can just keep going... Given the nature of BP you probably want to fill the secondary banks with Trebuchets to neutralize the sudden (and often) beam turret threat that likes to arise. This setup will actually work well for you on "Universal Truth," which must be one of the best-made missions I've ever flown (despite the bugs).
Regarding the Myrmidon, I've noted many people saying that you can load it with the Maxim. Unless there's an exception for dogfights, this just isn't true (unless you've got a modded Myrm).
-Thaeris
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I've noticed my kill count doubling or tripling every mission since I've started messing around with Tempests.
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Tempests are quite the underrated secondary, but in the right hands is deadly.
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I blame the use of Hurricanes on Inferno. :P
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I once lost the Hinton because the Iceni jumped out and rammed it.
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Tempests are quite the underrated secondary, but in the right hands is deadly.
I tend to think of them as a sort of ballistic primary. Their use is pretty much for speeding up a kill. Anytime my default loadout is Rockeyes, I switch them to Tempests. I have, however, gotten the silly "You have killed yourself using your own missiles" death message more than once while using them. :lol:
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In regards to Tempests, if you're used to using them all the time, you really tend to notice when you don't have them (aka they're not an option):
I've been playing "The Aeos Affair" with 3.6.10. Despite the fact that I feel it's a badly crafted/balanced campaign :mad:, a particular mission brings out the reality of my dependance on the Tempest... I can't recall the name of the mission off the top of my head, but it's the mission where you get the "stealth" Perseus. If you happen to be noticed by a particular flight of SF Dragons, you might manage to kill one with a brace of Harpoons, but the next two will give you hell to say the least. Without Tempests to "crack their skulls in," it takes a fairly long, accurate, sustained barrage to cut through those shields, even with the Kaiser or Prom S. Not to mention that the Perseus has rather poorly mounted gunports for killing rapidly maneuvering targets...
-Thaeris
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I just don't get the hate for the Myrmidon. :( It's reasonably tough, fast, maneuverable, and it has excellent turret placements. It can do just about any task well, truly a space superiority craft. Its combination of traits make it much more than the sum of its parts. It lacks any glaring deficiency that makes other ships simply horrible in some specific situation.
I tend to think of them as a sort of ballistic primary. Their use is pretty much for speeding up a kill. Anytime my default loadout is Rockeyes, I switch them to Tempests.
Use both. Rockeyes are great for blasting turrets off capitals, and once you've neutralized enough of a dead zone, sit in it and unload the tempests to speed up the damage. A single load of rockeyes can go a long way.
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Regarding the SOC loop: If a Loki isn't durable enough... how can a Myrmidon qualify? The Loki has better afterburners, shielding, profile and agility on its side. While the Myrmidon has a stronger hull, there needs to be some serious AAA fire to make that more important than all the drawbacks.
I think no classification really fits for the Myrmidon. It's not nimble enough to be a space superiority fighter and not fast enough to be an interceptor (but better armed than either) and severely lacks durability and missile capacity for an assault fighter (but is speedier). I usually use it as a heavy interceptor: It can kill a lot of things quickly and is especially attractive if the challenge lies in sheer volume of fighters/assault bombers to shoot down rather than having to fly all over the place to cover multiple angles. The 4+2 gun layout is helpful here - 2 Morning Stars prevent the target from locking on to whatever you're trying to defend while something else deals the damage.
When I'm flying it, I hate to get shot at though. It's big enough to get hit most of the time, not well-shielded enough that it can afford that, not nimble enough to turn out of their field of fire in an instant and not fast enough to shake them off with a roar of afterburners. In pure dogfights, I have a better survival rate in every other fighter (including the Vasudan flyweights and their obsolescent Seth which has nothing in its favour but its sleek lines) and half the bombers. This is quite damning for a supposed space superiority fighter as it's supposed to excel at this.
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When I'm flying it, I hate to get shot at though. It's big enough to get hit most of the time, not well-shielded enough that it can afford that, not nimble enough to turn out of their field of fire in an instant and not fast enough to shake them off with a roar of afterburners. In pure dogfights, I have a better survival rate in every other fighter (including the Vasudan flyweights and their obsolescent Seth which has nothing in its favour but its sleek lines) and half the bombers. This is quite damning for a supposed space superiority fighter as it's supposed to excel at this.
Well, we must just fly differently then. An easy fix-ish thing to do for the Myrm is to devote more power to engines and shields from the guns. If your flying with anything smaller than two Kaysers, the Myrm has energy left over (assuming you won't be shooting flat out for three or four minutes).
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What did you just say about the Seth?
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That it's obsolete and its only redeeming quality is its looks? :P
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Actually of all the Vasudan ships, the FS1 ships are the best ;\
The Tauret is terrible compared to the MK2.
The Serapis is let down by it's weapon configuration.
The Vasudan bombers are all horribly fail (in fact, I'd go so far as to say there's only two bombers worth flying really, ursa/boa :P).
And the Ptah is fat. (Fat Stealth!)
The Horus is still one of the (the?) fastest ships in the game.
The Seth has the best weapon setup for all the ships in the vasudan arsenal (not talking compatibility here, as it's been a while since I checked that, but I'm pretty sure it can carry proms/kay/morns/tempest, what else would you need unless you want a maxim?)
And the Thoth is the best dogfighter in the Vasudan Arsenal :P (*talking TvT)
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What about the Sekhmet?
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You have some mistakes in that list.
The Serapis's weapon config is fine. It's bad because it's made of paper.
The Tauret has a better profile than the Herc 2 from the back sides and front and it's got more missiles. It's not terrible compared to the Herc 2, but it does suffer from low weapon energy.
The Boanerges is worthless version of the Ursa - it's barely any faster, it's just as cumbersome, it isn't as well protected, it has the same capacity, meaning its pertty much the same all round just ****tier. The only bombers worth flying are the Ursa and Sekhmet. I like the Athena too though it isn't really a bomber.
The problem with the Thoth is that it can't do anything BUT dogfight.
Wait, I thought this thread was about weapon configurations. How did it turn into "which is your favorite fighter - redux" ?
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I have to say that if I'm going to listen to anyone about the worth of ships it's QuantumDelta, given his experience.
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Ok then, I'd like to hear the practical application of the Boanerges.
Looking at the table stats and model file it's not looking so attractive.
The only possible benefit I can think of is that two banks are larger and one smaller, thus possibly having a different rounded value for number of a certain missile due to how FreeSpace handles missile ammunition, allowing to carry more of a certain missile.
It may be true I haven't had much experience with playing tvt, as noone really plays that anymore (at least not that I've seen), but I don't see how that dismisses experience in singleplayer campaigns, which are much more accessible today.
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You're right about the rounding, and the Boanerges can carry two more Cyclops or one more Helios than the Ursa. Another nice feature is that Helioses load in even numbers, making the Boa the perfect Sath disarmer (e.g., for the BP:AoA mission "A Time for Heroes").
EDIT: To pretend that this is on topic, if I'm flying the Boanerges I like to arm Kayser / Tornado / Helios / Helios.
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Typically in bomber missions I concentrate on trying to score EVERY capital ship kill possible, so every secondary bank is a bomb.
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I managed to do that on two of the Raptor missions. Insta-Lieutenant.
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Raptor?
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Missions flying for the 64th Raptors.
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I got every capital ship kill in the game on one playthrough.
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You have some mistakes in that list.
The Serapis's weapon config is fine. It's bad because it's made of paper.
The Tauret has a better profile than the Herc 2 from the back sides and front and it's got more missiles. It's not terrible compared to the Herc 2, but it does suffer from low weapon energy.
The Boanerges is worthless version of the Ursa - it's barely any faster, it's just as cumbersome, it isn't as well protected, it has the same capacity, meaning its pertty much the same all round just ****tier. The only bombers worth flying are the Ursa and Sekhmet. I like the Athena too though it isn't really a bomber.
The problem with the Thoth is that it can't do anything BUT dogfight.
Wait, I thought this thread was about weapon configurations. How did it turn into "which is your favorite fighter - redux" ?
The Serapis being made of paper isn't 'in combat terms' any different to any of the other lights (*depending on what you class as a light, for me that classification is the stealth fighters, loki, thoth, horus, perseus, uly, of these there is a clear and complete winner, Perseus has more secondaries and a better setup for it's primaries), especially in the hands of an experienced pilot (*If I'm /serious/ about winning a TvT, and am not playing in a +150-350 ping environment, I will fly a Perseus, however I will often advise new pilots away from fighters that light as they're /very/ unforgiving), but the Serapis' second primary bank is too wide, it's ONLY useful against big targets, or targets that have a wide frame (like the other vasudan targets).
The Tauret does not have a better profile in a dogfight than a MK2, sure, it's thinner head on, but in an actual 1on1 (or more) situation, unless the Tauret pilot is better than you, you will see him from above or (most commonly) below most of the time, same weakness as the Myrmidon (Model designers take note), this means they present a HUGE target, the Tauret (well, vasudan fighters in general but the Tauret is the worst offender of all the fighters in the game) is ridiculously long AND wide, it's just thin, one of the redeeming features (compared to terran ships) that most Vasudan ships don't carry is the fact that there isn't any important subsystems 'easily' hittable in a furbal, the Tauret also breaks this trend by having it's sensors in a very vulnerable position on the front of the ship (which you can dump rockeyes into very easily if you're skilled enough).
The Sekhmet is a bit of a mixed bag, it can't decide whether it's an ultra heavy fighter (Ares competitor) or a bomber, arguably good in multi-role but never used in the campaign, the Sekh also has subsystem weaknesses available on the front of the ship, it's banks secondary banks aren't as useful as a Boa (double shot helios), it doesn't have a turret, it presents a bigger profile front on than an Ursa (smaller from above but again the turret is good for that situation) - It would be my third choice as a bomber, but for missions where I'm likely to have problems with fighters I'd rather have the Ursa, at least then I can ram them and be SURE I'll come off the better, for missions with no or few fighters - the boa just wins because it can carry 10 helios and shoot them all off in pairs.
And you're quite right about the thoth as well but it does deserve an honourable mention since it IS the best ship in the game at that job (*note for all the light dogfight missions you might ever fly).
The only real way to make use of the useless weapon alignment in the Serapis is if you're on a mission where you need to de-turret stuff, you use the wide bank for a maxim and the small one for something anti fighter.
I generally try to stay away from bombing stuff except when a mission forces me to :<
I'll be happy to don a maxim in a secondary bank and rip all the turrets off a ship for the bombers but actually flying around in a brick isn't my thing :P
Oh.
The Sekhmet does have one good purpose.
3 banks of trebs + maxim = ultimate ranged disarmer/cruiser killer.
I know I followed up on the derail but yea.. :P
The classic coop combos are basically;
Ares Maxim/PromS(or Kayser depending on your taste and the difficulty), Tempest/Trebs. - This setup, when available is THE setup to take into a mission you're trying for the first time, it's the most versatile.
Perseus Kayser/PromS/Tempest/Tempest - ultimate dogfighting machine >.>
Erinyes Kayser/PromS or MorningStar/PromS(Kayser again depending on pref) Rockeye/Tempest (THE setup to take as a host or low ping pilot to obliterate entire wings of fighters, tvt or coop it's the highest firepower setup in the game, the rockeye are for tactical disarming (you swoop in onto a target but not enough to make them turn away and leave rockeyes almost at point blank range heading for their sensors/weapons depending on the ship).
If you're against the AI, especially on lower difficulties and you want to be a heavy anti fighter type, more or less anything (herc mk2/ares works best tho) with MorningStar/Kayser/PromS with Harpoons and Trebs.
For bombers it depends a lot more on what you're doing and what's available to you, but the reason I like the Ursa over the Boa and the Sekhmet, especially for higher difficulties where you can't afford to just hold down control with a maxim vs a fighter, is that the Ursa gives you two banks - the tri-bank gets a maxim and the dual bank gets a proms or kayser (can it carry a Kayser? I forget), when you're in a bomber though unless you have some mission critical need to take something else(normally this means trebs), you should always take max banks of bombs and rely either on your wingmen or some good energy and shield management with a little bit of jinking to get you into a position to deliver them.
I'll shut up now cuz that's waaaaaaaaaay more than I originally intended to say in this thread lol
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That it's obsolete and its only redeeming quality is its looks? :P
NO U, I used the Seth and love the afterburner boost (although the Sammael fried me with an SRed while I was flying it once).
Tempests are brilliant. The "High payload dumbfire" description is not a lie.
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In case that isn't clear, I was referring more to target profile than looks. Given that its afterburners and shields are still adequate, I find the Seth still serves well when the going gets tough - when you'd be too busy evading fire in light craft to deal much damage yourself and where something heavier - especially the Sekhmet which is otherwise brilliant - can get into real trouble because they get hit too often for their shields to compensate.
The Tauret has a lot more firepower and the disadvantages in shielding and profile don't look like much... but theory aside, I tend to have a better survival rate in the Seth.
The Serapis is ideal if you appreciate manoverability more than anything else in a dogfight but still need to do some support work: If the other bank has to be Maxims anyway, your dogfighting primaries will have the best positioning you could hope for. An asymetrical secondary capactity makes what you have count for more - 120 tempests are enough to support your primaries (and with just a single bank, you definitely need some) and you can still carry a decent load of standoff weaponry in the larger bank.
Equipped as a pure dogfighter, it still has a lot of minor advantages over the Thoth. I'd rather take 50% more primary firepower most of the time, but the handling of the Thoth is ideal for my abilities anyway - anything twitchier and my aim tends to suffer.
I agree that the Perseus is a very practical choice... personally I find it a little bland and prefer something with more defined strenghts, but all other light fighters have inadequate shields or secondary capacity. While I consider the Loki the top Terran dogfighter, the Perseus can do anything the Loki can almost as well and having 4 times the missile capacity is a rather noticable advantage.
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I have no love for the Horus. It's slow pitch rate made me die once, and I'd rather fly intercept in a Serapis.
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The Seth is the best Vasudan ship, and one of the best period. Great firing configuration, lots of missiles, tough armor, and acceptable performance in a dogfight. Most other Vasudan ships are a real pain to aim with, and are generally inferior to Terran counterparts. The Sekhmet is a nice bomber, though.
Leave space superiority to humans. Vasudans are for heavy assault and bombing.
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The Tauret isn't bad as a missile boat... :drevil:
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Hate the weak cannon capacitor, though. Six Prom S's might be fun, but that low energy threshold is a real disappointment. I'll take a Herc 2 over the Tauret any day. If I'm not mistaken, the Herc is more maneuverable as well.
If the Tauret is to be commended for one thing, it's a good amount of speed. The missile capacity is great, but the placement of the banks is not good for dogfights at all. Given the size of the banks, the Tauret might actually do well with at least one bank of Rockeyes, as Tempests will not be in a good firing position (unless you're blasting bombers).
I'd think you'd want the quad primary bank loaded with the Mekhu, the dual with Prom S, one bank of Harpoons and a bank of Rockeyes for a "high-impulse" dogfight/interception mission.
-Thaeris
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Just to change to subject slightly I think one of the best ships is the Perseus. Take it with two Kaysers and Two Harpoons and you're set to go dogfighting :)
But for bombing boa still strangely feels best for me, dunno why :confused:
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Oddly, I'm not a great fan of the Perseus. The low gunmounts are a bit strange to get a hold of. My favorite interceptor is the Loki, bar none.
As far as bombers go, my fav is the Medusa. Fairly maneuverable, and the Kaiser turret, if properly used, is quite useful in a dogfight. And I'd actually be an advocate for the Zeus. It's pretty small and handles like a heavy fighter (compare it to the members of the Herc family). Also note that the two gunbanks give more operational flexibility than most other bombers. It's probably as close to the Athena that you'll get in FS2.
-Thaeris
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I think you're mistaken. The Medusa has a Prom R turret. The Ursa has a Kayser turret.
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Well, how about that? I just looked it up in the table, and it is indeed a Prom R. Ugh...
For some reason, I was under the impression that all Terran bombers had a Kayser turret.
-Thaeris
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Oddly, I'm not a great fan of the Perseus. The low gunmounts are a bit strange to get a hold of. My favorite interceptor is the Loki, bar none.
Odd that. I can't stand the Loki, no idea why :confused:
Still though each to their own :)
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The Perseus gunpoints are about as easy to use as an Apollo's, even close to an Athena.
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I prefer the Herc 2's or Erinyes' mounts. The low position of the Perseus mounts makes hitting a target quite a pain in certain circumstances. The Aeos affair made that very clear...
If there were ever just bad gunmounts though, they were in the Bakha. You'll spend a lot of time spitting out shots and not hitting a maneuvering target. However, it's just a matter of adaptation. The Perseus is very good... it's just not my favorite.
-Thaeris
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To be honest gunpoints tend not to be to much of a bother for me as I find all it takes is about 5 mins to adapt.
On the other hand what I can't stand is being on the wrong side of the battle in a Herc II unable to get into the action!!! :mad:
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"All power to engines, full ahead!!!"
That's how you do it. :D
-Thaeris
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"All power to engines, full ahead!!!"
That's how you do it. :D
-Thaeris
Translation: Use your ETS.
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I sucks more being in a Bahka where that doesn't do anything (but make your boost recharge a bit faster) :/
Some strike bomber that crud is. It won't even go faster properly.
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@ Thaeris: The Tauret might not be a very good platform for the Prometheus, but you mentioned the best fix already. A quad bank is a great asset for pilots wishing to balance firepower with low energy requirements, especially in Vasudan ships. 4 Mekhus have only ~5% less firepower than 2+2 Kaysers, are far more efficient and still let you use your 2-gun bank for whatever tricks you want. I find the biggest letdown of the Tauret its lack of Maxim compatibility.
This is especially annoying because it means the Vasudans have no craft that's good for capital ship suppression while still remaining capable ina dogfight - the Serapis is the only one that can carry Maxims and dogfight primaries at the same time but it cannot carry Stilettos or Trebuchets (the latter of which is inexcusable for something that's supposed to be an 'advanced interceptor').
I generally regard the Perseus as an inferior Loki with some standoff capability; at close range 80 Tempests are enough to support primaries and I often have some left over at the end of a mission. The Loki has better shields, is slightly more maneoverable and faster (the powerful afterburners are not only an asset in a fight, they also let the Loki cover ground more quickly in spite of a slightly lower cruising speed). The differences in target profile and gun placements aren't huge - spread is amost identical, that the Perseus' guns are offset slightly to the bottom isn't a big deal once you get used to it.
I find that the Loki's speed - the edge gets bigger with aggressive energy management - more than offsets the lack of missiles in most interception missions.
Its failure is its impotence against capital ships: if I need to shoot off a few beams as well I'll grudgingly take a Perseus or Myrmidon despite not liking either ship very much.
Regarding the Zeus: I'm half convinced this was made from cannibalised Valkyries. This would explain why those disappeared despite having some life left in them, why the front of the hull including the cockpit look suspiciously similar and why the two craft share a few quirks: extreme afterburner reserves and uniquely fast acceleration and deceleration. If that's what they did, my first thought was that whoever ordered it done deserves to be thrown out of an airlock and then shot: The Valkyrie was arguably the best interceptor ever while the Zeus, despite having a lot of character, is neither here nor there.
Tactical bombers are a mostly obsolete concept when Trebuchet-armed fighters can do the job as well. Even if that was unforseen at the time when the Zeus was developed, the Athena was better at the job. For destructive bombing (something that assault fighters and the Athena admittedly can't do at all) it has badly insufficient payload especially since it probably wants something for self-defence, lacking both a turret and respectable shields.
However, for the GTI rather than the main combat arm the Zeus might have been exactly what was needed: An old-school strike bomber for disable&capture missions that can also blow up an escorting cruiser or two (and any inconvenient witnesses who happen to pass by in larger ships...) without needing to call for support.
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the front of the hull including the cockpit look suspiciously similar
:wtf:
Are you ****ing serious?
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3194/wuta.png)
Do explain how big and wide with a modern-day attack helicopter canopy is SIMILAR to long and narrow with a huge bulbous nose and canopy.
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Right. They're suspiciously similar, alright.
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To be honest, I see little similarities apart from the pointy bit and the 2 by 3 glass panel arrangement.
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And the shape of the missile bays...kinda...
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apart from the basic geometry, ie top down, angular vs round and from the side wedge vs round yep they are identical ;7
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I generally regard the Perseus as an inferior Loki with some standoff capability; at close range 80 Tempests are enough to support primaries and I often have some left over at the end of a mission. The Loki has better shields, is slightly more maneoverable and faster (the powerful afterburners are not only an asset in a fight, they also let the Loki cover ground more quickly in spite of a slightly lower cruising speed). The differences in target profile and gun placements aren't huge - spread is amost identical, that the Perseus' guns are offset slightly to the bottom isn't a big deal once you get used to it.
I find that the Loki's speed - the edge gets bigger with aggressive energy management - more than offsets the lack of missiles in most interception missions.
Its failure is its impotence against capital ships: if I need to shoot off a few beams as well I'll grudgingly take a Perseus or Myrmidon despite not liking either ship very much.
You need to fly some real TvT and get good at it, honestly, it's where fighters and bombers real strengths are illuminated.
Loki are fine so long as one of two conditions are met;
You die a lot.
You get time to rearm.
If you're better than your opponent, neither happens in TvT.
At which point the 4 times greater missile capacity is GREATLY appreciated.
Loki's are considered Thoth killers in DFs, whilst Thoth are considered superior to /everything/ else when it comes to 'all on all'.
Whilst the Loki is one of the nimblest little buggers, that's all it is.
As soon as it runs outta tempest, it's a gnat, a fly you can ignore, until it gets bored enough to call in support - which you can blow up for bonus points to put your team even further ahead.
"Annoying but ineffectual" light fighters are always the last targets to die in a dogfight because they don't have the offensive capacity to be dangerous.
The ONLY modern (FS2 Era) fighter that breaks this trend thoroughly is the Perseus.
It's ONLY weakness infact is the lack of maxim, and lights aren't really something you would throw at a cap ship anyway.
However - even without the maxim, a Perseus with two bays of tempest can disarm pretty much any cruiser or corvette class warship without calling for support.
It can do the destroyers too if you don't waste the tempests on turrets that die promptly to just primary fire.
In a TvT though, no, the choice of light fighters is clear, if there were a light which had usable 4 port gunbanks the conclusion would be slightly different.
Personal taste is fine but saying 80 tempests is 'adequate' makes me question what kind of situation you deem it adequate for.
Anything under 200 tempests on a ship is completely inadvisable for a proper squadwar unless you're flying a missile boat, and if you are, you're going to be relying on more skilled team mates to keep you alive and your opponents distracted so your ..missiles, can be useful anyway.
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Actually, those assessments mostly reflect my own views. To repeat from an earlier post of mine:
I agree that the Perseus is a very practical choice... personally I find it a little bland and prefer something with more defined strenghts, but all other light fighters have inadequate shields or secondary capacity. While I consider the Loki the top Terran dogfighter, the Perseus can do anything the Loki can almost as well and having 4 times the missile capacity is a rather noticable advantage.
Pretty much the same as your comment about the Perseus breaking the mold in terms of mission profile, approached from the other end.
The only real disagreement seems to be about how many Tempests are enough for anti-fighter work. I don't mind having to use them frugally (finishing a target to make use of their excellent hull damage or good angles when hardly any shot will be wasted. I find them visually distracting so I don't really want to spam them anyway). 80 Tempests isn't much but it's still 12 seconds worth... if needed I can make that last.
Would a bigger capacity with the associated ability to use them liberally be an asset in a dogfight? Definitely, but not so much for me that it outweighs the Loki's other advantages... in fact, I'm almost more concerned about the rather bad placement.
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Uhm, the problem is (and it's a big one, and you don't seem to have twigged), in an environment where you don't get the chance to reload and don't want to die (and have to respawn, if you even have that option) for an extremely long period of time during intense and near-constant dogfighting, 80 is entirely insufficient.
TvT under standard SW rules last for around 10-12 minutes unless one team completely overpowers the other and camps them into the ground.
If you think you can stretch your tempest out by a factor of 60 when the pilot you're fighting may even, be better than you, and still expect to win long enough to stay alive, then a Loki is fine.
If you are inferior to your opponent then a loki is fine because you'll be dead and able to re-arm that way.
If you are however superior to your opponent and intend to make sure you reach the TVT objective mark//win overall - you will always, always, find that 80 tempest is not enough.
I really can't stress it enough, when I'm flying a Perseus (it means I'm serious for a start which means I'm probably going to survive 12 minutes and my opponents simply wont) I'm gasping for tempest without having wasted many (*My secondary accuracy is around 50%~, and I never bomb, and I'm far less conservative with my missiles in coop), long, long before the game is over no matter how bad the opponent is.
Realistically, I could just rely on primaries but ya know... I honestly can't stress it enough, when $*^$ hits the fan, if you are confident and you want to come out on top and stay there those extra tempest are your best doorway to doing it.
The Loki's "other" advantages are normally not required either (*it's primary advantage is it's superior agility, and as I've said quite a lot of times; if you are even 1% better than your opponent after an average skill level, you become almost untouchable to them, the same applies to turning speed) because the perseus covers a huge spectrum of those compared to other ships.
Just about the only time I'd take a Loki as my ship of choice is if I knew my only job was to annoy people, and it'd be loaded with a lamprey and a morning star (I believe it can carry both?) if that were the case.
Obviously, not a killer setup, but a heavily support orientated one, you're too annoying to kill immediately, but you're too annoying to leave alone. ;P
So they either deal with having no weapon/burner energy or they pull off the more dangerous targets that are attacking them to try to kill you.
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I never quite understood why one should bother going with anything other then a Prom-S/Prom-S or the Kayser/Kayser (assuming that is the name of the hull damage 5 and shield 6 laser. I don't remember and I just used them this morning D:) alongside Tornadoes on a fighter that has a high missile bank capacity.
I tried to do separate parings, but the only one I ever agreed upon was the Subach HL-7 and the Prom-R (before I had the Prom S)
And even then...
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I never quite understood why one should bother going with anything other then a Prom-S/Prom-S or the Kayser/Kayser (assuming that is the name of the hull damage 5 and shield 6 laser. I don't remember and I just used them this morning D:) alongside Tornadoes on a fighter that has a high missile bank capacity.
I tried to do separate parings, but the only one I ever agreed upon was the Subach HL-7 and the Prom-R (before I had the Prom S)
And even then...
Turn it up to Insane so you actually have realistic weapon energy drain rates and try the Kayser-Kayser.
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The reason why PromS is used (apart from it's milder weapon energy drain) is because of it's superior range and superior hull damage. The only (mild) unfortunate downside is that PromS fire travels faster than Kayser fire so unless it's a third shot the PromS doesn't benefit quite as much as it would, but the weapons compliment each other quite well regardless.
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Turn it up to Insane so you actually have realistic weapon energy drain rates and try the Kayser-Kayser.
I didn't know the difficulty affected how much energy was drained
That would explain quite a bit
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The difficulty affects a lot more things than you might realise. On anything above medium, you will seriously hate any warship with an LRed or larger mounted on it.