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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nemesis6 on March 29, 2010, 07:39:15 am

Title: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nemesis6 on March 29, 2010, 07:39:15 am
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003260027

I wonder if they know how much of a laughing stock they are. No matter how much they try, they always manage to marginalize themselves even further. Fortunately, they always do it in hilarious ways like this! :lol:
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 29, 2010, 08:41:31 am
I hate to say the tea party peeps are altogether crazy, because I've met some profoundly paranoid (very crazy) people at anti war rallies. But then when's the last time a liberal lunatic flew a plane into a building?

I figure a big percentage of the tea party folks are just repeating what they hear on tv/the internet, like most of the rabidly liberal teenagers I know.

Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on March 29, 2010, 09:11:05 am
***WARNING*** LIBERAL CIRCLE JERK EMINENT IMMINENT***WARNING***
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2010, 09:14:54 am
Imminent, darn it!

Eminent means 'honorable'. Which is probably not what you meant.  :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 29, 2010, 09:30:20 am
The ad I'm getting for this page is "Online Tax Revolt".
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: StarSlayer on March 29, 2010, 09:32:15 am
Its probably worth mentioning that while its easy to make fun of all the crazy yahoos that make up these things, and point and laugh at the uneducated rabble swinging "Communist Czars" posters you shouldn't ignore the elephant in the room.   A movement like this is like an iceberg, what you see is the crazy extremist tip.  Now if that many people are motivated to go to Washington and actively *****, even if they are the ignorant, racist , Fox News zealots then you better believe there is a much larger segment of the population, while not angry enough to go demonstrate, are still very unhappy.  Quite frankly people have a reason to be afraid, the majority of our population is on the verge of retirement.  They are at the stage where they are going to need healthcare and the government seems to be severely rocking the boat and doing a poor job assuaging those fears.

Now I'm not saying the opposition is right.  It's quite possible the Healthcare reforms will prove very successful.  But to be honest it was the Gov't responsibility to have properly promoted this project as a fiscally possible solution that will benefit all Americans and come next November we might find out they failed miserably.  So sure you can laugh at the Tea Parties but I look at them and cringe at what kind of Conservative backlash might be coming down the pike.   It took Dubbya eight years to nearly put the GOP in the ground, the Dems might manage to resurrect it in two.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Snail on March 29, 2010, 09:35:05 am
Imminent, darn it!

Eminent means 'honorable'. Which is probably not what you meant.  :p
Are you saying circle jerks aren't honorable?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 29, 2010, 10:08:06 am
there are loons in both parties.  need we bring up ACORN?  while i'm not marching on washington, i am genuinally pissed about this.  the government has NO right to mandate that i carry health insurance.  it does NOT have a responsibility to provide health care to everyone.  some of the insurance policy reforms sound great, and i can't disagree with them from a humanitarian standpoint, but economically they just don't work.  accepting people with (certian) pre-existing conditions means they are now forced to pay extreme medical bills and recieve essentially nothing.  where do you think that money comes from?  the real solution would be to get a handle on rediculous healthcare costs at the base and make the racket that is medical insurance irellevant.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Turambar on March 29, 2010, 10:09:53 am
Oh Klaus....

I DISAGREE

*drives off*

edit:  Also, only fox news thinks ACORN are loonies.  The first ACORN scandal thing involved them having a pile of fraudulent registrations.  They are required to take all of the voter registrations and pass them on, and those were the ones that they had specifically marked as fraudulent, so they wouldn't be actually registered as voters.  The second scandal involved a retard dressed like a pimp and some heavily edited video.  That retard then went on to try and wiretap a senator.  Pretty much all of the outrage here was unjustified and manufactured.

As for healthcare, there is quite a bit still wrong with the system.  The important part was getting a foothold so that the next set of reforms can go in.  As it is, there's entirely too much profit being made on the system being inefficient.  We  have doctors doing too many tests because if they don't they might get sued, we have them paying for huge amounts of malpractice insurance in case they do get sued, we have people's health insurance paying the prices that the doctors have to inflate to carry those costs.  What this bill fixed is when people come in to the ER with no insurance and then the government has to pay, and when people get sick without insurance and then don't get medical help until it's an emergency, at which point the treatment is likely too much for them to pay, causing them to go bankrupt, unable to pay for their house, unable to contribute to the economy etc.  If people can stop being morons for a bit, they'll use their new health insurance to make it affordable to deal with their problems before they are too expensive.  

The bill is a start, still have a long way to go.

(also, i know tort reform is a major right wing point.  even though they are wrong on lots of things like gay folks and war, they actually have a point on this one.  not saying it will solve the problem though, it's only part of the bigger solution)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Sushi on March 29, 2010, 10:15:23 am
Starslayer is correct. Ignore the crazy people in a movement, and pay attention to what the sane people in that movement are saying. Unfortunately, sane people don't make as good television as crazy people, so that doesn't tend to happen very often.

IMO, one of the biggest problems with pretty much all (political) media is that the viewers/readers reward them for painting with the broadest possible brush in the ugliest possible colors.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 29, 2010, 10:19:36 am
There are no sane teabaggers. Maybe Fox should stop giving them airtime.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 29, 2010, 10:32:23 am
Oh Klaus....

I DISAGREE

*drives off*

that's fine, i know people will.  there is every possibility that i am wrong, and this bill WILL be a vast positive change.  i just don't see it.  there is definitely a case for health care reform, and i won't fault anyone for that (well within reason).  i have to somewhat remove myself from this whole cluster**** altogether, because it doesn't hugely affect me.  i am in great health and have coverage.  but the mandate stuff still pisses me off.  giving up more to unecessary government control, whether it has an actual effect or not, is TERRIBLE direction to be taking.

and just as a preemptive argument, NO i'm not regurgitating anyone else's arguments or theories.  i don't watch TV or get my information from any sort of opinionated programming.  this is MY logic and conclusions, based off of information gathered from mostly internet news articles, nearly all of which put the liberal spin on the whole thing, some more subtly than others
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2010, 10:51:54 am
IMO, one of the biggest problems with pretty much all (political) media is that the viewers/readers reward them for painting with the broadest possible brush in the ugliest possible colors.


There's a human heuristic bias to value the strength of an argument (how 'intense' it is) over the reliability of the source.

So loud angry arguments by nutty people (on either wing) actually feel more convincing than moderate arguments from reliable, well-researched people.

Silly brains.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 29, 2010, 10:52:59 am
there are loons in both parties.  need we bring up ACORN?  while i'm not marching on washington, i am genuinally pissed about this.  the government has NO right to mandate that i carry health insurance.  it does NOT have a responsibility to provide health care to everyone.  some of the insurance policy reforms sound great, and i can't disagree with them from a humanitarian standpoint, but economically they just don't work.  accepting people with (certian) pre-existing conditions means they are now forced to pay extreme medical bills and recieve essentially nothing.  where do you think that money comes from?  the real solution would be to get a handle on rediculous healthcare costs at the base and make the racket that is medical insurance irellevant.

But you ARE paying it. Where do you think people without health insurance go when they need medical attention? Someone is paying for the emergency room visits.

Those people with extreme medical conditions that health insurance companies decide aren't profitable enough to cover don't just stop going to the hospital, we end up paying for it, either through increased premiums or higher taxes for medicare and medicaid.

I think we need some kind of government system (single payer/public option) because I'm not particularly fond of "Well they have to make money off of our health somehow"
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: StarSlayer on March 29, 2010, 11:08:49 am
There are no sane teabaggers. Maybe Fox should stop giving them airtime.

I don't think your getting my point.

It's not even that you need to find sane tea baggers or treat them like they're a legit.  You can ignore the entire movement quite frankly, more then likely they are already so entrenched you are not going to change their opinions anyway (assuming their opinions are something other then screaming about CommieFacism).  The problem is that its a symptom of a larger issue.  If you get that many folks pissed off enough that they are willing to truck to Washington to raise hell, then you can bet there is a much larger group of people, that while not upset enough to join the movement are not sold on the healthcare reform.  Those people are not the lunatic fringe, they aren't dumb or zealots or wing nuts, they just have not been convinced it will work and those are the folks that are going to be important come election day.  Couple that with the Mass Senate vote this spring and it becomes pretty clear the government has not addressed people's concerns.  Rather then taking a step back and try to get the populace to rally round the idea they decided to just ram it through, with all the seedy back end deals that entails.  

Now I certainly could be mistaken, but I figure there are going to be repercussions over this come the next voting cycle.  I cringe at the thought of a new wave of NeoCons riding the Dems' inability to make the sale on Healthcare into Office
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 29, 2010, 11:12:54 am
Which is why i'm personally (mark my ****ing words) going to knock on the doors of every registered Democrat in eastern Nebraska come election day.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Turambar on March 29, 2010, 11:19:24 am
Which is why i'm personally (mark my ****ing words) going to knock on the doors of every registered Democrat in eastern Nebraska come election day.

all 14 of them?  sounds like a lot of driving :-P  I'll definitely be going out to vote myself, my state just barely pulled for Obama in the presidentials.  We've got a Senator up in 2010, Richard Burr, and he needs to go (anti-choice, pro-death penalty, anti-freedom sort).  He was against the healthcare bill, and with that position having failed, he's joined with the Republican party in being giant babies and not coming to work.  Hopefully I'm not the only one in NC who thinks that **** shouldnt fly.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 29, 2010, 11:23:41 am
Which is why i'm personally (mark my ****ing words) going to knock on the doors of every registered Democrat in eastern Nebraska come election day.

all 14 of them?  sounds like a lot of driving :-P

Eastern Nebraska, not Western. :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nemesis6 on March 29, 2010, 04:29:52 pm
I don't really think the tip of the iceberg thing applies to the tea baggers - They are basically a movement born out of the paranoid delusions and conspiracy theories of Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, Ron Paul, and the John Birch Society(THE COMMUNISTS ARE EVERYWHERE!). Where the whole "Obama is a secret communist Muslim Kenyan socialist sand-nigger" thing comes in, I'm not sure, but I'd say it's just the typical redneck racism. I know the tea party protests were formed as some kind of protest against taxation, but I don't see anything resembling that. All you need to do is look at their protests to conclude that they're lunatics whose messages are so varied, and downright crazy, if their signs are anything to go by, that is. From what I can tell, all they have in common is paranoia and bigotry. They feed off of the ignorance that's promoted by the Republicans, and between those two, I can't see any difference, which is probably why the republicans are so eager to support them -- There IS no real ideological difference to speak of. They're just an extension of crazy right-wing.

By the way, I need some help here... Can someone explain to me what this means: http://dailyhurricane.com/racistteabagger.jpg
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Galemp on March 29, 2010, 06:58:19 pm
"The President is a Communist, the government is evil, and someone has to do something about this! And I learned it all from Glen Beck!"

Yep, that's totally mainstream and not marginalized at all.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mxlm on March 29, 2010, 07:07:50 pm
the real solution would be to get a handle on rediculous healthcare costs at the base and make the racket that is medical insurance irellevant.

And the way to do that is with universal coverage, as is demonstrated by, oh, every other Western nation.

But you won't support universal care, nevermind something as sensible as a single payer system.

Incidentally, was the already existing requirement that ERs not, like, let people die untreated an improper use of government power?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 29, 2010, 07:23:46 pm
How is Obamacare mandating insurance coverage going to stop the medical insurance racket?  Wouldn't that increase demand for insurance instead?

Klaustrophobia is probably suggesting something like consumer-driven health care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_driven_health_care) as a means to bring down insurance costs.  Note that CDHC does not remove insurance entirely, it merely relegates it to the level of something needed for catastrophes.

Also, let's talk about auto insurance.  Coverage is mandated on auto insurance yes, but auto insurance is only needed in case of something like an accident.  Imagine if auto insurance paid for routine maintenance such as oil changes and tire rotations.  Do you think more people would get oil changes and tire rotations more often?  Yes, they probably would, simply because someone else would be paying for it and the true costs would be hidden.  Then, in order to control costs do you think auto insurance companies would put caps on benefits as well as increasing premiums to cover the increased expenses?  Yes, they probably would.  Do you see any parallels with how health insurance is run here?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Vrets on March 29, 2010, 07:37:52 pm
As a global superpower in an age of high technology and globalization, what we really need to do to is decentralize to solve our problems.

Spoiler:
sarcasm
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2010, 07:38:23 pm
So to extend the metaphor:

Quote
Also, let's talk about auto insurance.  Coverage is mandated on auto insurance yes, but auto insurance is only needed in case of something like an accident.  Imagine if auto insurance paid for routine maintenance such as oil changes and tire rotations.  Do you think more people would get oil changes and tire rotations more often?  Yes, they probably would, simply because someone else would be paying for it and the true costs would be hidden.

...let's say because of this more frequent preventative care, the rate of serious automotive problems and even crashes dropped dramatically, saving huge amounts of time and money.

I'd call that a win.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 29, 2010, 07:41:24 pm
But it wouldn't cause the rate of automotive incidents to drop dramatically.  Most people take care of their cars just fine without the need for insurance to cover routine maintenance.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 29, 2010, 08:30:10 pm
Routine maintenance on a car isn't comparable to the cost of medical care for a human. My personal routine medical care easily costs several thousand dollars per year.

Here's the options: the government makes sure I get health insurance I can afford, and I absorb some of the costs of my health care myself, or the government picks up the whole tab when I inevitably land in the emergency room repeatedly.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 29, 2010, 09:33:30 pm
Routine maintenance on a car isn't comparable to the cost of medical care for a human. My personal routine medical care easily costs several thousand dollars per year.

Here's the options: the government makes sure I get health insurance I can afford, and I absorb some of the costs of my health care myself, or the government picks up the whole tab when I inevitably land in the emergency room repeatedly.

Here's the rub.  I don't want the Government to that for me, or much of anything else, it's not their place.  Their only place in my life is to exercise and pursue the constitutionally mandated powers and objectives.  Anything that is not those very specific and exact provisions

Healthcare is over-priced because everyone uses insurance to pay for it, hiding the actual costs of that health care so they don't see them and don't care how much it costs because they only ever pay $20 or $40 or whatever, not because there's some vast conspiracy between ALL the insurance companies and teh ebil republcans to drive up prices.

That's like saying the CIA teamed up with Castro to pay the mafia to kill Kennedy.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2010, 10:04:40 pm
But it wouldn't cause the rate of automotive incidents to drop dramatically.  Most people take care of their cars just fine without the need for insurance to cover routine maintenance.

Sure, but this is a metaphor for health insurance, and preventative health care would cause the need for palliative health care to drop massively. Scientists have said again and again that more preventative care is the best way to save money health-wise.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: LordMelvin on March 29, 2010, 10:14:31 pm
That's like saying the CIA teamed up with Castro to pay the mafia to kill Kennedy.

Well Duh. I thought everyone knew that.

Or weren't the obvious connections between Jack Ruby and the Chicago mob, in light of the presence of Duke Harris on the grassy knoll and John Dillinger Jr. by the underpass, and of course the recently revealed long-term homosexual relationship between Dallas Police Captain Fritz and Cuban Assistant UN Ambassador Gutierrez...
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 29, 2010, 10:15:13 pm
Yeah, as much as I agree with healthcare reform and mandated insurance, the auto insurance analogy just doesn't really fit.  Thing is, routine maintenance isn't covered in auto insurance.  Auto insurance exists to protect the driver in case of a breakdown on the road, or to pay for the damages caused in an accident with another driver.  

Routine maintenance, on the other hand, is what's covered in most warranties and roadside assistance plans offered by dealerships and automotive clubs.  And frankly, if you know anything about what's under your hood and you have the resources to do so, you can perform 99% of routine maintenance yourself.

So, I guess if you want to continue with the auto insurance metaphor, HCR right now is more like a combination of auto insurance and warranty coverage.  Can you do routine things like maintain a healthy diet, exercise, stop smoking, and limit drinking yourself?  Yes, but the insurranty exists to protect people who can't.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Galemp on March 29, 2010, 10:17:53 pm
Scientists have said again and again that more preventative care is the best way to save money health-wise.

Yep, same way that giving out $1 toothbrushes can save you $3000 at the dentists' later on. Or how a $2 condom can save you $50,000 worth of tuition in 18 years. :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 29, 2010, 10:23:47 pm
Routine maintenance on a car isn't comparable to the cost of medical care for a human. My personal routine medical care easily costs several thousand dollars per year.

Here's the options: the government makes sure I get health insurance I can afford, and I absorb some of the costs of my health care myself, or the government picks up the whole tab when I inevitably land in the emergency room repeatedly.

Here's the rub.  I don't want the Government to that for me, or much of anything else, it's not their place.  Their only place in my life is to exercise and pursue the constitutionally mandated powers and objectives.  Anything that is not those very specific and exact provisions

So, what, if you got sick, showed up in the ER choking on blood, you'd want them to turn you away if you couldn't pay because you don't want the government paying for you? Or would you rather they fix you up and then seize your car, home, etc. to pay for it later?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mxlm on March 29, 2010, 10:57:32 pm
Healthcare is over-priced because everyone uses insurance to pay for it, hiding the actual costs of that health care so they don't see them and don't care how much it costs because they only ever pay $20 or $40 or whatever, not because there's some vast conspiracy between ALL the insurance companies and teh ebil republcans to drive up prices.

It's overpriced because insurance companies have extraordinarily little competition. In most areas there are maybe two real options, and people don't actually have a choice; you can get the insurance your employer provides, or you can pay an extraordinary amount of money that you almost certainly can't afford.

Not because people use too much care.

Fun fact time:

Quote
In 2007, the U.S. spent $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person, up from $2.1 trillion, or $7,026 per capita, the previous year.[37]  Spending in 2006 represented 16% of GDP, an increase of 6.7% over 2004 spending. Growth in spending is projected to average 6.7% annually over the period 2007 through 2017. A recently released report on the latest figures showed that the US spent $2.5 trillion, $8,047 per person, on health care in 2009 and that this amount represented 17.3% of the economy, up from 16.2% in 2008.[38]  Health insurance costs are rising faster than wages or inflation, and medical causes were cited by about half of bankruptcy filers in the United States in 2001.[39]

The next highest country's GDP spending on healthcare is Switzerland, at 11%. So, again: national care to cure the disease.

Not the form of national care we're going to get, though. Good job, fiscal conservatives, you managed to make sure the healthcare reform we are getting was about as inefficient as it could possibly be. Nice one.

Also, nice job not remembering that the reform we have gotten is basically your own damn idea from 1994.

Quote
Here's the rub.  I don't want the Government to that for me, or much of anything else, it's not their place.

Do you believe emergency rooms should be allowed to turn away people who are unable to pay? Rephrased, do you think ERs should be permitted to allow people to die simply because the dying person doesn't have money?

If not, then you do think it's the government's place, whatever your protestations to the contrary. If so, well, I don't really care what you think about the role of government.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 29, 2010, 11:26:37 pm
That's a fallacious argument on the face of it.  No emergency room in the United States is going to turn away someone who is choking on blood or anything else.  AFAIK, they never have and never will, it goes against a little thing called the Hippocratic Oath.

As for them seizing my house or my car because I couldn't/wouldn't pay, that's between me and the hospital, BHO and his cronies can keep his narcissistic nose out of my business, though I would hope that the administrators at the hospital would be reasonable about a payment schedule presuming I did have to make use of they're services and didn't have a means of full payment available.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 29, 2010, 11:33:51 pm
Insurance is your means of payment dude.  That's the whole point of this legislation:  pay a premium now so you don't have to talk with hospital administrators to try to pay of $8000 in medical bills later.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 29, 2010, 11:50:50 pm
Exvcept that because of the way that insurance works you don't get an itemized bill that you have to work out the payments to the hospital/doctors with your agent.  The hospital bills the insurance company directly and no one ever sees the $3000 a night for an unmonitored bed or the $500 surgical steel screws that you have in your knee from when you blew out your ACL, so they don't care.  They think it actually only cost $140 or whatever they're copay is.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mxlm on March 30, 2010, 12:03:49 am
That's a fallacious argument on the face of it.  No emergency room in the United States is going to turn away someone who is choking on blood or anything else.  AFAIK, they never have and never will, it goes against a little thing called the Hippocratic Oath.

They don't do that because doing so is illegal. Because the government has required them to render aid since 1986. And why did the government institute that requirement (under Reagen, note)? Because:

Quote
EMTALA was passed to combat the practice of "patient dumping", i.e., refusal to treat people because of inability to pay or insufficient insurance, or transferring or discharging emergency patients on the basis of high anticipated diagnosis and treatment costs. The law applies when an individual with a medical emergency "comes to the emergency department," regardless of whether the condition is visible to others, or is simply stated by the patient with no external evidence.

Note that patient dumping happens anyway (http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2009/01/hlaw1-0901.html) (a cursory google search will lead you to many more articles).

So now that we've established that refusal of care is indeed a real danger in the absence of government intervention, I ask again: should ERs be required to render aid to those in need?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on March 31, 2010, 01:47:32 pm
I'll say it, I don't think they should have to.
if you can't afford treatment you are just making it harder for the people who can.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: perihelion on March 31, 2010, 02:03:25 pm
I'll say it, I don't think they should have to.
if you can't afford treatment you are just making it harder for the people who can.
... I am so disgusted right after reading that I feel physically ill.  I cannot fathom that level of greed, selfishness, and complete disregard of your fellow human beings.  Have you no shame at all?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 31, 2010, 02:07:29 pm
At least he's honest. Most conservatives just avoid the question.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on March 31, 2010, 02:57:11 pm
I'm poor and have no insurance feel as il as you want
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: MR_T3D on March 31, 2010, 03:19:13 pm
I'll say it, I don't think they should have to.
if you can't afford treatment you are just making it harder for the people who can.
this whole healthcare mess is a reason I am damn glad to be canadian, where I don't have to worry about going broke because i have, say, cancer.

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Black Wolf on March 31, 2010, 03:23:20 pm
I'll say it, I don't think they should have to.
if you can't afford treatment you are just making it harder for the people who can.

Coming at this from the perspective of a country with a fairly good free public health system, that kinda attitude blows me away. If you can't afford health care, then in a first world country the government should be bloody well paying for it for you. They're the government. That's what they're for, and the fact that that's not only not acknowledged in america, but that it's somehow considered anti patriotic to hold a view like that... honestly, I can not understand you guys.

And because MR T3D started it...

Australians all let us rejoice
For we are young and free
We've golden soil and wealth for toil,
Our home is girt* by sea:
Our land abounds in nature's gifts
Of beauty rich and rare,
In history's page let every stage
Advance Australia fair,
In joyful strains then let us sing
Advance Australia fair.



*That's right *****es - we're girt, and proud of it.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on March 31, 2010, 04:53:58 pm
I'm poor and have no insurance feel as il as you want

So why is it that you think only wealthy people are worth saving?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mars on March 31, 2010, 06:05:32 pm
aka, in your mind, is the amount of money you have, or that you make, roughly proportional to your worth as a person, or as a component of society if you'd like.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Unknown Target on March 31, 2010, 06:12:56 pm
Bob, under the new health care system, if you can't afford it you get subsidies. It's only if you choose not to buy it when you can afford it that you'll get fined.

By the way, it was originally a Republican idea, as it still has private insurers doling out the insurance.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2010, 07:21:12 pm
They're the government. That's what they're for...
BlackWolf, in the USA, The Tenth Amendment (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am10.html) would disagree with you.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mxlm on March 31, 2010, 07:33:15 pm
Most conservatives just avoid the question.
/me coughs
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Inquisitor on March 31, 2010, 07:33:31 pm
Shocking.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 31, 2010, 08:37:04 pm
They're the government. That's what they're for...
BlackWolf, in the USA, The Tenth Amendment (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am10.html) would disagree with you.

It also tends to agree with him somewhat

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2010, 09:03:29 pm
The Preamble has no binding legal force and is little more than a summary for the document that follows.  This is basic civics stuff people.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 09:06:01 pm
While it may be basic, it's also been steadily going the way of the dodo since before the Civil War.

Whether or not you think this is a good thing is up to your personal leanings.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mxlm on March 31, 2010, 09:06:32 pm
The Preamble has no binding legal force and is little more than a summary for the document that follows.  This is basic civics stuff people.

Basic civility involves answering questions that are posed to you, good sir (yes, yes, I know civility and civics aren't the same thing).

Or at least telling the questioner to **** off.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 31, 2010, 09:12:46 pm
The Preamble has no binding legal force and is little more than a summary for the document that follows.  This is basic civics stuff people.

Says the guy who quotes the 10th amendment as a response to what the government is for.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 31, 2010, 09:13:50 pm
Pelosi once got asked at a press conference where the government got its power to do regulate health care in this way in the Constitution.  Her answer was unbelievable considering she is Speaker of the House: "Are you serious? Are you serious?"  She didn't even bother to pull some random justification out of her ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xYCqRhXawc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xYCqRhXawc)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 09:23:42 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity, given that the government has for a very long time possessed a lot of powers not strictly granted to it in the Constitution.

But this is clearly not some kind of exclusively liberal problem, because the Bush administration took major steps to expand government power and reinterpret the Constitution as a 'living document'.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2010, 09:48:58 pm
Ok, let's play a game of poker.  The rules are alive!  So I, as Dealer, say that a pair of dueces beats everything, after I've drawn a pair of dueces.  That's essentially what is being said by people who advocate that the Constitution is a living document whose interpretation must change with the times.  That's bullcrap, and it's being shoveled by people who know there little provision would never stand the test to become a constitutional amendment which is the only way to change the constitution.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 10:09:31 pm
So are you criticizing the Bush administration or health care policy?

The 'living document' thing was a big element of the Bush legal strategy. Not so much Obama.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 31, 2010, 10:15:16 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity, given that the government has for a very long time possessed a lot of powers not strictly granted to it in the Constitution.

But this is clearly not some kind of exclusively liberal problem, because the Bush administration took major steps to expand government power and reinterpret the Constitution as a 'living document'.
And you are okay with the government having all those powers not granted to it by the Constitution?  Are you saying that just because it has been happening for a while, it is okay?

And yes, the Bush administration did this as well.  Do you think I am any happier about that?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 31, 2010, 10:16:47 pm
Believe it or not, the Constitution is not God.

Times change--the Constitution changes with it.  It's why we have the amendments.  No one in 1787 could have seen the United States becoming what it is now, or how far technology has come.  

You know what, forget the Constitution for a second.  All government exists in it's most basic form to protect life, liberty, and property.  When the government has the resources to do so, does it make any sense for it to sit back and allow the single greatest threat to the lives of its citizens run rampant?  

What I'm seeing is a lot of people are hating on the healthcare reform bill on principle alone, and it's clear that a lot of them are grasping at straws now (and have been for a long time).  "It's socialism!"  Yeah, so what?  "Socialism leads to communism!"  Tell that to the UK, France, and Canada.  "It's going to bankrupt the US!"  Actually reduces the deficit by $138 billion over a decade.  "It's going to tell me what doctor to see!"  Not true.  "It's unconstitutional!"  Prove it.  

Healthcare proponets have been more than reasonable when it comes to explaining this **** to the other side, and frankly I'm getting tired of being called liberal elitist scum because I give a damn about other people.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 31, 2010, 10:21:15 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity, given that the government has for a very long time possessed a lot of powers not strictly granted to it in the Constitution.

But this is clearly not some kind of exclusively liberal problem, because the Bush administration took major steps to expand government power and reinterpret the Constitution as a 'living document'.
And you are okay with the government having all those powers not granted to it by the Constitution?  Are you saying that just because it has been happening for a while, it is okay?

And yes, the Bush administration did this as well.  Do you think I am any happier about that?

Yes, things like the Commerce Clause and the Supremacy Clause give the federal government enormous amounts of power that we not specifically stated in the Constitution. This has been going on since well before Bush or Obama.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 10:21:26 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity, given that the government has for a very long time possessed a lot of powers not strictly granted to it in the Constitution.

But this is clearly not some kind of exclusively liberal problem, because the Bush administration took major steps to expand government power and reinterpret the Constitution as a 'living document'.
And you are okay with the government having all those powers not granted to it by the Constitution?  Are you saying that just because it has been happening for a while, it is okay?

And yes, the Bush administration did this as well.  Do you think I am any happier about that?

I didn't make any statements about my own personal feelings on the matter.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 31, 2010, 10:53:03 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 11:05:16 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.

My statement meant that I understood what she was thinking when she responded with incredulity; as Blue Lion said, the government has had vast power assigned to it through documents more recent than the Constitution. Members of the government from both parties are accustomed to this, since the government routinely makes policies in areas not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.

It did not reflect anything about my own opinion of this matter.

I'm slightly pissed that you feel the need to assign an opinion to me and then attack me about it. I try to understand people whether or not I agree with them, and that includes Pelosi.

This is one of the reasons I dislike GenDisc. Even a carefully neutral statement will end up being taken as a cause for argument.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 31, 2010, 11:05:47 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.

It's not her job to determine Constitutionality, or the President's
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2010, 11:17:59 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.

My statement meant that I understood what she was thinking when she responded with incredulity; as Blue Lion said, the government has had vast power assigned to it through documents more recent than the Constitution. Members of the government from both parties are accustomed to this, since the government routinely makes policies in areas not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.

It did not reflect anything about my own opinion of this matter.

I'm slightly pissed that you feel the need to assign an opinion to me and then attack me about it. I try to understand people whether or not I agree with them, and that includes Pelosi.

This is one of the reasons I dislike GenDisc. Even a carefully neutral statement will end up being taken as a cause for argument.
No document supersedes the Constitution in determining governmental powers.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on March 31, 2010, 11:20:02 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.

My statement meant that I understood what she was thinking when she responded with incredulity; as Blue Lion said, the government has had vast power assigned to it through documents more recent than the Constitution. Members of the government from both parties are accustomed to this, since the government routinely makes policies in areas not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.

It did not reflect anything about my own opinion of this matter.

I'm slightly pissed that you feel the need to assign an opinion to me and then attack me about it. I try to understand people whether or not I agree with them, and that includes Pelosi.

This is one of the reasons I dislike GenDisc. Even a carefully neutral statement will end up being taken as a cause for argument.
No document supersedes the Constitution in determining governmental powers.

You're right, but documents elaborate on powers and restrictions not placed in the language of the Constitution itself since it was never designed to be the end all of the government.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2010, 11:27:59 pm
Well, frankly I understand her incredulity
I may have taken your statement out of context, but that statement leads me to believe that you don't care about the government expanding beyond its Constitutionally-mandated limits.  In my opinion any elected member of the federal government should be able to immediately say exactly where they are deriving their power when asked about it, since they are the ones we have elected to safeguard the Constitution.

Even Bush was able to pull off a half-assed explanation usually related to his enumerated duties as President when he was questioned about his actions.  Pelosi isn't even pretending the Constitution matters.

My statement meant that I understood what she was thinking when she responded with incredulity; as Blue Lion said, the government has had vast power assigned to it through documents more recent than the Constitution. Members of the government from both parties are accustomed to this, since the government routinely makes policies in areas not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.

It did not reflect anything about my own opinion of this matter.

I'm slightly pissed that you feel the need to assign an opinion to me and then attack me about it. I try to understand people whether or not I agree with them, and that includes Pelosi.

This is one of the reasons I dislike GenDisc. Even a carefully neutral statement will end up being taken as a cause for argument.
No document supersedes the Constitution in determining governmental powers.

Yeah but plenty of documents supplement it.

Also, why are you arguing with me when I just spent a post explaining that I myself haven't even expressed an opinion on the topic?

How do you know you're not preaching to the choir?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Kosh on March 31, 2010, 11:28:56 pm
I'm poor and have no insurance feel as il as you want


Then why do you oppose a policy that would directly benefit you?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2010, 11:44:07 pm
Maybe because he's not letting his compassion blind his logic?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 31, 2010, 11:47:36 pm
It's not his compassion--it's his own self-interest we're talking about here.

Which I don't know why you'd have to trade compassion for logic here anyway...the bill fits both just fine.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 01, 2010, 12:22:44 am
because I don't think it's right that someone else should be forced into paying my bill.

further I feel that having my expenses payed lessens me as a person, I derive a lot of personal satisfaction from doing things myself.

there is also the control issue, if someone else is paying my tab they effectively have control over me. in the current incarnations of the bill we are already seeing some of this, for instance there is (or was) a section that taxed tanning spa companies, I'm assuming because they increase the risk of skin cancer.

speaking of nice bits of the bill I'm particularity thrilled with the part that effectively mandates I use the new health care BS by levying an additional tax if I don't get insured, that realy ****ing helps me, thanks.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 01, 2010, 12:41:33 am
Pride isn't going to pay your medical bills.  I like to do a lot of my own car maintenance myself, but I still pay for a couple-hundred-dollar roadside assistance package so I'm not faced with an unexpected several-thousand-dollar maintenance bill if my car breaks down.  You're letting your pride get in the way of practicality.  If you're poor and can't afford health insurance maybe it's time to let someone help you out, because if you can't afford insurance, you damn sure aren't going to be able to afford a massive bill.

And no matter how you want to twist it the healthcare bill isn't a sick power grab for control freaks in Washington.

We've been bending over and taking it from the upper 2% in this country for long enough that I think we've earned some healthcare at their expense.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 01, 2010, 02:07:13 am
And they've been paying for your bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs for longer than that.  The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already, and you wanna milk them for more?  If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.  Because as you've pointed out over and over, they have the means to do so.  Then who are you going to milk for the money to run your "good intentions"?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Ford Prefect on April 01, 2010, 02:28:08 am
bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs
How is it that you always make my own ideologies sound way more fun than they are to me? That sounds like a music festival that makes Bonnaroo look like my senior prom.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 01, 2010, 02:30:57 am
Oh, I'm so sorry they're not going to be able to pay off the mortgage on their 3rd mansion five years early.  

Point of ****ing fact:  people making over $200K a year aren't the ones who are going to ****ing die this year because they can't get insurance.  Seriously, **** them.  They can't be greedy assholes and sit around with their 47th big screen TV anymore while some poor kid from Fort Collins dies because he can't afford his medicine.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 01, 2010, 02:32:03 am
The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already, and you wanna milk them for more?

They can afford it.

In fact, they can afford to pay all the tax burden in this country and their standard of living would barely be compromised from its already ridiculous level.

If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.

You said this many times, in many debates, but the historical bottom line is that it doesn't happen. The money itself might leave into offshore accounts, but the people don't.

If you say it again, I want some kind of evidence it'll actually occur.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Spicious on April 01, 2010, 04:29:17 am
And they've been paying for your bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs for longer than that.  The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already
You are so caught (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#In_the_United_States), and complete with references too.

The problem is still that people in the US make judgements on things like this based on how much they earn in their magic fantasy land where they own some highly profitable business, rather than basing it on how crummy their actual situation is.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2010, 08:31:17 am
The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already

Mathematically, that's a meaningless statistic without knowing what percentage of their income said burden takes up.

And in fact it's nothing crippling.

We've developed our own home-grown aristocracy. I'm surprised to hear you defending them when the top 1% controls nearly half the country's wealth.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Snail on April 01, 2010, 08:32:14 am
Productive discussion? On this day?!
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Kosh on April 02, 2010, 10:21:03 am
And they've been paying for your bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs for longer than that.  The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already, and you wanna milk them for more?  If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.  Because as you've pointed out over and over, they have the means to do so.  Then who are you going to milk for the money to run your "good intentions"?


Yep and when you get seriously ill and end up in the emergency, guess who pays for that? Taxpayers. Hospitals don't turn away people with no ability to pay from the ER because there is a law against it.

And you know what, if a public option/socialization/whatever the hell they are doing is going to bring down the cost of healthcare so the middle class can once again actually AFFORD to pay their medical bills, then so be it. To be fair, what grand proposals have the Republican party come up with to make healthcare affordable?

Quote
If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.

To where? How do you know they don't already have most of their "toys" hidden away in offshore bank accounts?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on April 02, 2010, 10:29:56 am
if they actually paid the taxes they're supposed to pay, we'd have lower tax rates and be running less of a deficit.  Unfortunately in the American business climate, playing by the rules is a disadvantage, and you'll be outcompeted by the people who break every rule they can get away with. 
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mika on April 02, 2010, 11:08:39 am
* Glances through the thread in amazement *

I'd like to remind thread participants of one thing that does not go away: not treating fatal diseases causes patients to become disease vectors in some illnesses. Which may allow evolution of even more resistant forms.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 02, 2010, 11:53:09 am
And they've been paying for your bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs for longer than that.  The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already, and you wanna milk them for more?  If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.  Because as you've pointed out over and over, they have the means to do so.  Then who are you going to milk for the money to run your "good intentions"?

The top 2% controls 80% of the wealth of the United States.  They aren't leaving anytime soon.

The United States also has one of the lowest corporate tax burdens in the world.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: iamzack on April 02, 2010, 12:30:55 pm
hey, Liberator!

(http://i.imgur.com/BZ9gn.jpg)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 02, 2010, 12:35:04 pm
I'd like to remind thread participants of one thing that does not go away: not treating fatal diseases causes patients to become disease vectors in some illnesses. Which may allow evolution of even more resistant forms.

actually treating them causes the resistant strains, if no one was treated there would be nothing for them to become resistant to.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: bobbtmann on April 02, 2010, 01:27:54 pm
I'd like to remind thread participants of one thing that does not go away: not treating fatal diseases causes patients to become disease vectors in some illnesses. Which may allow evolution of even more resistant forms.

actually treating them causes the resistant strains, if no one was treated there would be nothing for them to become resistant to.
Which means that to have no antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria, we have to do away with antibiotics altogether.

Or maybe that's the beauty of private health care. Since only a few wealthy people can afford it, there's less chance of a resistant strain developing. We poor people would die untreated, of course, but its for a good cause. Can't have members of Forbe's List dying. That's bad form.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 02, 2010, 01:32:14 pm
I wasn't making any suggestions, I was just correcting his flawed understanding of evolution.

his point about disease carriers remains valid.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 02, 2010, 02:08:51 pm
I have the ultimate solution for health care and the Government can pay for it!

Nanobots.

Develop a series of nanobots that float serenely in our bloodstreams until an infection hits and then they move to eliminate it.  Simoultaneously, they implement continuous microscopic repairs to our organs, circulatory systems and genetic structure, making everyone functionally immortal.  And they would be available to anyone for the low low cost of your soul, your firstborn and right arm.

This facetious attempt at comedy has been brought to you by my boredom and lack of wit!
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2010, 02:27:34 pm
That would actually be a great system and hopefully it will some day happen.

Of course, in our current system, it's likely to be a corporate therapy developed by a biotech start-up, available only to the ultra-wealthy at first - thus allowing them to not only control most of the nation's wealth, but to live forever.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 02, 2010, 03:06:56 pm
That would actually be a great system and hopefully it will some day happen.

Of course, in our current system, it's likely to be a corporate therapy developed by a biotech start-up, available only to the ultra-wealthy at first - thus allowing them to not only control most of the nation's wealth, but to live forever.

Tleilaxu, anyone? =)

A cookie to the first person that gets the reference WITHOUT looking it up.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2010, 03:08:40 pm
Oh, come on, that's easy.

Spoiler:
though they were really silly in the prequels
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 03:19:36 pm
And they've been paying for your bull**** hippie good time banana rock-and-roll programs for longer than that.  The top 5% pays on the order of 95% of the tax burden in this country already, and you wanna milk them for more?  If you push much more, they're gonna leave and take their toys with them.  Because as you've pointed out over and over, they have the means to do so.  Then who are you going to milk for the money to run your "good intentions"?

The top 2% controls 80% of the wealth of the United States.  They aren't leaving anytime soon.

The United States also has one of the lowest corporate tax burdens in the world.
Funny, Wikipedia has the U.S. maximum corporate tax rate at 39% federal with state corporate tax rates as high as 12%.  UK's maximum is 28%, Sweden's is a flat percentage set at 26.3%, Ireland is at 12.5%, and it says China's is at 25%, but that lacks a citation.  Even Venezuela and Bolivia have lower corporate tax rates with the maximums at 34% and 25% respectively.

Source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world)

On that list only Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Saudi Arabia, and Syria have higher maximum corporate tax rates than the United States.

Oh, and GB, only a foolish biotech company would sell immortality to a very small market.  I'm sure they could make more money by having a large volume of customers, especially if said immortality requires some upkeep every few years or you start aging.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2010, 03:23:31 pm
It'd probably end up that way eventually, but not for quite a while, assuming that the therapy had to be individually tailored and relied on a lot of visits to the doctor.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 03:35:48 pm
Well, it all depends on how much money can be made off it, especially once the patent runs out, and it would be a lot.  Henry Ford managed to make a killing selling a product everyone at that time thought was an exclusive province of the wealthy.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2010, 03:42:44 pm
Completely different situation, though. If the supply is bottlenecked, either by production factors or by the need for highly trained specialists and technicians to attend to each to each patient, then the price will skyrocket.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 02, 2010, 03:53:17 pm
Funny, Wikipedia has the U.S. maximum corporate tax rate at 39% federal with state corporate tax rates as high as 12%.  UK's maximum is 28%, Sweden's is a flat percentage set at 26.3%, Ireland is at 12.5%, and it says China's is at 25%, but that lacks a citation.  Even Venezuela and Bolivia have lower corporate tax rates with the maximums at 34% and 25% respectively.

Source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world)

On that list only Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Saudi Arabia, and Syria have higher maximum corporate tax rates than the United States.

Tax burdens and tax rates are two separate phenomena.  The corporate tax rate in the US is one of the highest; the corporate tax burden is one of the lowest.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 04:58:51 pm
So you're saying that U.S. corporations are making so much money that they make more money than the corporations in the rest of the world even after the higher tax rates are taken into account?  And do you want to raise tax rates to compensate for this "shortcoming"?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Scotty on April 02, 2010, 05:01:02 pm
I thought she meant that the corporate sector pays a smaller percentage of the total tax income collected by the government than other countries.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2010, 05:08:00 pm
No and no. Tax burden is something different.

This may not actually be very helpful, but this is a Wikipedia article on the topic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence)

In short, the corporate taxes are actually passed on to workers and consumers, rather than being paid by the corporation and stopping there.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Thaeris on April 02, 2010, 05:41:39 pm
That would actually be a great system and hopefully it will some day happen.

Of course, in our current system, it's likely to be a corporate therapy developed by a biotech start-up, available only to the ultra-wealthy at first - thus allowing them to not only control most of the nation's wealth, but to live forever.

Tleilaxu, anyone? =)

A cookie to the first person that gets the reference WITHOUT looking it up.

Nasty, nasty, shape-shiftin' sons... er, "its"-O-b*tches...
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Kosh on April 02, 2010, 08:03:09 pm
I have the ultimate solution for health care and the Government can pay for it!

Nanobots.

Develop a series of nanobots that float serenely in our bloodstreams until an infection hits and then they move to eliminate it.  Simoultaneously, they implement continuous microscopic repairs to our organs, circulatory systems and genetic structure, making everyone functionally immortal.  And they would be available to anyone for the low low cost of your soul, your firstborn and right arm.

This facetious attempt at comedy has been brought to you by my boredom and lack of wit!


Something like that will happen eventually, but unless the government steps in and subsidizes it for people who are not ultra rich then our society will be divided into two parts, one that effectively are immortal gods, and the rest of us lowly mortals.


Quote
In short, the corporate taxes are actually passed on to workers and consumers, rather than being paid by the corporation and stopping there.

There's also a lot of loopholes in the tax code that let corporations pay very little in income taxes, despite the appearently high percentage.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mongoose on April 02, 2010, 10:06:46 pm
I have the ultimate solution for health care and the Government can pay for it!

Nanobots.

Develop a series of nanobots that float serenely in our bloodstreams until an infection hits and then they move to eliminate it.  Simoultaneously, they implement continuous microscopic repairs to our organs, circulatory systems and genetic structure, making everyone functionally immortal.  And they would be available to anyone for the low low cost of your soul, your firstborn and right arm.

This facetious attempt at comedy has been brought to you by my boredom and lack of wit!


Something like that will happen eventually, but unless the government steps in and subsidizes it for people who are not ultra rich then our society will be divided into two parts, one that effectively are immortal gods, and the rest of us lowly mortals.
And then the Great Robot Uprising happens, and we're all equally screwed.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: perihelion on April 02, 2010, 10:39:39 pm
If this "effective immortality" doesn't ship with mandatory birth control, we're all ****ed within a couple generations.  You think the gerontocracy we have right now is bad...
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 10:45:56 pm
No and no. Tax burden is something different.

This may not actually be very helpful, but this is a Wikipedia article on the topic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence)

In short, the corporate taxes are actually passed on to workers and consumers, rather than being paid by the corporation and stopping there.
Businesses passing costs onto others?  [sarcasm]*gasp* That could never happen![/sarcasm]  Seriously, businesses always pass costs onto someone else.  I thought most people knew that already.

Now, if the businesses pass the costs related to taxes onto consumers and workers, doesn't that mean reducing the taxes they have to pay would mean they don't have to pass as much on?  Higher wages for workers and lower prices for consumers seems like a good reason to lower taxes.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 02, 2010, 10:59:55 pm
No and no. Tax burden is something different.

This may not actually be very helpful, but this is a Wikipedia article on the topic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence)

In short, the corporate taxes are actually passed on to workers and consumers, rather than being paid by the corporation and stopping there.
Businesses passing costs onto others?  [sarcasm]*gasp* That could never happen![/sarcasm]  Seriously, businesses always pass costs onto someone else.  I thought most people knew that already.

Now, if the businesses pass the costs related to taxes onto consumers and workers, doesn't that mean reducing the taxes they have to pay would mean they don't have to pass as much on?  Higher wages for workers and lower prices for consumers seems like a good reason to lower taxes.

Why would they do that when they can just pocket the difference and keep the burden on the workers and consumers?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 11:24:41 pm
If one company pockets the extra profit, and their competitors decide to cut prices, guess who loses market share?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Spicious on April 02, 2010, 11:27:24 pm
If one company pockets the extra profit, and their competitors decide to cut prices, guess who loses market share?
If all companies pocket the extra profit, and none of their competitors decide to cut prices, guess who gets screwed?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 11:41:10 pm
The consumers obviously.  But this scenario is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If all companies pocket the profits, all of them profit.  If one company cuts prices and steals market share, everyone else loses and that company wins.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 02, 2010, 11:42:25 pm
Higher corporate taxes always devolve down to who ever is paying money into the corporation, whether it is consumers or stockholders.  So raising corporate taxes has little to no actual effect on the daily business practices of the corps in question.

Of course as we all know, Corporations are EVIL INCARNATE!
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 02, 2010, 11:44:55 pm
Higher corporate taxes always devolve down to who ever is paying money into the corporation, whether it is consumers or stockholders.  So raising corporate taxes has little to no actual effect on the daily business practices of the corps in question.

Of course as we all know, Corporations are EVIL INCARNATE!

The quest for money at almost any cost..... that's pretty close.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 02, 2010, 11:52:29 pm
I was just about to yell at Liberator for interfering my attempt to prove why lower corporate taxes would result in lower prices, and someone shows up and replies to his tirade before I can dress him down.  Now people are just going to ignore my statements and focus on what Liberator said.

EDIT: You know Liberator, for a while there you were pretty close to figuring out angry yelling was not a good way to get your point across in a debate.  I'm dismayed to see you slide like this since you had a lot of potential to be a valuable contributor when you weren't using words composed entirely of capital letters.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Spicious on April 03, 2010, 12:07:39 am
The consumers obviously.  But this scenario is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If all companies pocket the profits, all of them profit.  If one company cuts prices and steals market share, everyone else loses and that company wins.
That company wins until everyone else reacts and everyone makes less money. That's how economists say things should work. This clearly does not reflect reality in a rather wide range of areas.

Prices follow a simple system in these areas: prices go up when costs go up; prices stay the same when costs go down.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 03, 2010, 12:09:23 am
I was just about to yell at Liberator for interfering my attempt to prove why lower corporate taxes would result in lower prices, and someone shows up and replies to his tirade before I can dress him down.  Now people are just going to ignore my statements and focus on what Liberator said.

EDIT: You know Liberator, for a while there you were pretty close to figuring out angry yelling was not a good way to get your point across in a debate.  I'm dismayed to see you slide like this since you had a lot of potential to be a valuable contributor when you weren't using words composed entirely of capital letters.

Which do you think is more obvious, markets being always undercut or a static price range so companies can rake in profits? Why would companies drive their prices downward when they know it'll only hurt them in the end?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 03, 2010, 12:15:17 am
No and no. Tax burden is something different.

This may not actually be very helpful, but this is a Wikipedia article on the topic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence)

In short, the corporate taxes are actually passed on to workers and consumers, rather than being paid by the corporation and stopping there.
Businesses passing costs onto others?  [sarcasm]*gasp* That could never happen![/sarcasm]  Seriously, businesses always pass costs onto someone else.  I thought most people knew that already.

Now, if the businesses pass the costs related to taxes onto consumers and workers, doesn't that mean reducing the taxes they have to pay would mean they don't have to pass as much on?  Higher wages for workers and lower prices for consumers seems like a good reason to lower taxes.

So are you going to address the original point, or go charging off on a tangent accompanied by crude sarcasm?

Because I thought you wanted to know what the corporate tax burden was, and why it was so low in America.

I've explained that. Your original notion that American corporations are taxed to death, followed by MP-Ryan's explanation that they are in fact not, should now make sense.

If you want to open a new discussion at least acknowledge the effort I put into resolving this one first, without trying to make it sound like "Oh, I knew that already."

My point here was to explain why American corporations do not suffer from taxes. As before, you've gone and assumed that I was trying to make a point with this, then lashed back. It's unpleasant and unwanted.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 03, 2010, 01:15:22 am
Okay GB, you win, American corporations don't pay their taxes, Average Joe pays it for them.

In a situation like that though, I don't see why anyone (not talking about you here) would approve of keeping the rate where it is since it only punishes consumers.
I was just about to yell at Liberator for interfering my attempt to prove why lower corporate taxes would result in lower prices, and someone shows up and replies to his tirade before I can dress him down.  Now people are just going to ignore my statements and focus on what Liberator said.

EDIT: You know Liberator, for a while there you were pretty close to figuring out angry yelling was not a good way to get your point across in a debate.  I'm dismayed to see you slide like this since you had a lot of potential to be a valuable contributor when you weren't using words composed entirely of capital letters.

Which do you think is more obvious, markets being always undercut or a static price range so companies can rake in profits? Why would companies drive their prices downward when they know it'll only hurt them in the end?
Because it will hurt them more if they don't.  If one company could lower prices, steal market share from their competitors, and make up the lost per-unit revenue through volume, it would.  What part of "this is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)" do you not understand?  BL, go down to the section on the PD in economics, and you'll see why companies would choose a sub-optimal result.  Yes, it talks about advertising, but the problems faced by companies in this situation wouldn't be any different.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 03, 2010, 01:18:47 am
Boy, I just can't catch a break it seems.  That was supposed to be funny, especially since that's the stance most of the people posting seem to be taking.  It was a little sarcasm to lighten the mood.

Seriously, everyone complains about how much money the huge "mega" corps are making.  None of you seem to want to talk about they're charitable work or how much product they write off as giveaways.  The funniest part is that no one seems to be complaining that they make money, just that they make too much.  Who decides how much profit is too much, if the market will support it, why not?  Of course, if you have a power hungry government that wants to stick it's fingers into the pie and "help" the market support the higher prices then why should I complain.  

The same bull****(if this word offends you, I'm sorry, I'm calling it what it is) is happening in the auto market as is happening in the medical arena, all the improvements that are made to gain the fuel economy standards end up costing more money after purchase than is saved at the gas pump.  Hybrids, particularly, are DOA from the get go.  It's the same car, but instead of a gas tank and a well tuned engine, you have actually added significant weight to the car in the form of a 1/4 to 1/2 ton battery, which itself is highly hazardous to the environment should the housing be breached(like in say...a rear impact auto collision?), and a high performance electric motor(s).  To compensate for this, you lighten the body of the car to the point to where survival is a questionable activity in the hypothetical collision.  For this wonder filled experience, they charge the consumer thousands of extra dollars, which are not saved by the consumer anywhere in the maintenance or fueling of the vehicle.  And yet you have a over bearing government who just raised fuel economy standards again which will force even lighter weight, ever more unsafe automobiles onto America's highways and byways.

Also, there is a company that sells things at a reduced price and makes up for it in volume, in almost every sector of the retail market, and has be enormously successful.  The name of this company is Wal-Mart, and it is currently the largest retailer in the world with millions of outlets worldwide and selling they're products on an average of 5% less than they're competition in whatever market they are in.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 03, 2010, 01:19:35 am
Okay GB, you win, American corporations don't pay their taxes, Average Joe pays it for them.

In a situation like that though, I don't see why anyone (not talking about you here) would approve of keeping the rate where it is since it only punishes consumers.

Now that is a fair question.

Seriously, everyone complains about how much money the huge "mega" corps are making.  None of you seem to want to talk about they're charitable work or how much product they write off as giveaways.

The problem as I see it is that these megacorporations concentrate wealth to a few elite. They do benefit the system as a whole, but not nearly as well as they could. They're wealth aggregators far more than they are wealth generators.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 03, 2010, 01:49:40 am
So it's ok for 10,000 people to make $500k a year, but if the person above them makes $1m because he made it possible for 2500 of that 10k to make 500k it's katie-bar-door time?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 03, 2010, 01:53:31 am
Because it will hurt them more if they don't.  If one company could lower prices, steal market share from their competitors, and make up the lost per-unit revenue through volume, it would.  What part of "this is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)" do you not understand?  BL, go down to the section on the PD in economics, and you'll see why companies would choose a sub-optimal result.  Yes, it talks about advertising, but the problems faced by companies in this situation wouldn't be any different.

I know what a prisoners dilemma is but why don't I see prices falling? Why does packaging for food go down in size but the prices stay the same.

Yea that's why there are price wars everywhere.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 03, 2010, 01:54:57 am
So it's ok for 10,000 people to make $500k a year, but if the person above them makes $1m because he made it possible for 2500 of that 10k to make 500k it's katie-bar-door time?

I don't recall making any such statement. Or saying anything about CEO salaries, or how many people make what. Don't put words in my mouth.

The problem is 1% of the nation's population controlling 80% of the wealth. That's an aristocracy.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 03, 2010, 02:09:56 am
I didn't mean to imply that you yourself had said anything, just that that was the opinion that was being expressed in general.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 03, 2010, 02:11:55 am
Quote
To compensate for this, you lighten the body of the car to the point to where survival is a questionable activity in the hypothetical collision.  
Bull****.

Bull****, bull****, bull****, bull****.

The Prius, Fusion, and Escape Hybrid all got outstanding safety ratings from the IIHS.  Cars that you'd think would be safe during a crash (trucks and SUVs) actually tend to get poor safety records, especially in side-impact scenarios.  The only reason you're safer in a truck or SUV is because most everything else on the road is much smaller, and if you're driving under 30mph or so, it's going to take a lot of force to cause a life-threatening injury to the driver of a 3/4-ton truck.  But if you're going 45+ in a truck...you've got a 3/4-ton battering ram with poor handling that's not only a threat to everyone else on the road, but to the driver who's likely to flip or get his door punched in by another car (where trucks tend to be poorly designed for safety).

So, short version:  a Prius is just as safe in a collision as a Malibu or a Camry, and in some cases is actually safer than an SUV.

I'll agree with you on the maintenance costs though.  Hybrid technology isn't where it should be, but it certainly is a step in the right direction.

Quote
Also, there is a company that sells things at a reduced price and makes up for it in volume, in almost every sector of the retail market, and has be enormously successful.  The name of this company is Wal-Mart, and it is currently the largest retailer in the world with millions of outlets worldwide and selling they're products on an average of 5% less than they're competition in whatever market they are in.

Because they treat their employees like **** and destroy small business' competition wherever they go.  No wonder they can cut costs.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mika on April 03, 2010, 02:28:00 am
Quote
actually treating them causes the resistant strains, if no one was treated there would be nothing for them to become resistant to.

No, I meant that if you don't treat it, there's a chance that the disease can also mutate in to a form where the current medication doesn't help any more without any antibiot influence. The less medication there is, the more people there are among which the mutation can happen. Yes I know it is not the usual way how resistant forms come to existence, but the point is it can happen - and to my knowledge has happened. I'm not sure though if I should call the result resistant form or simply evolution.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 02:48:28 am
if you don't treat it there is nothing for the pathogen to adapt to, it could in theory become more (or more likely less) deadly, but there is no reason to think it would be at all likely that a bacteria/virus/parasite would become resistant to a treatment in the absence of said treatment. it 'can happen' in the same way a human 'can' in a single generation develop wings and fly, evolution does not work that way, you are wrong.

TL;RD
lrn2darwin
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: karajorma on April 03, 2010, 02:52:13 am
Because it will hurt them more if they don't.  If one company could lower prices, steal market share from their competitors, and make up the lost per-unit revenue through volume, it would.  What part of "this is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)" do you not understand? 

You are also aware that in many cases of Prisoner's Dilemma the prisoners cooperate? You're aware that many simulations of iterated Prisoners Dilemma result in a situation where both sides always cooperate because the recriminations that result from the first defection result in a lower overall score?

While the company that reduced it's prices might gain market share, that would last as long as it took the other companies to reduced their prices too. We're talking about a day at most for many products and a month or two for others. It's simply not enough time in most cases to make the kind of in-roads needed to offset the enormously reduced profits when the other companies also lower their prices and their customers defect back to whoever they were originally using. Starting a price war could very easily get everyone into a situation where they all cut their prices so heavily that all but one or two of them goes out of business.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 03, 2010, 03:22:29 am
In other words, this isn't the Prisoner's Dilemma.

It's the Pirates'.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 03, 2010, 03:45:52 am
Because it will hurt them more if they don't.  If one company could lower prices, steal market share from their competitors, and make up the lost per-unit revenue through volume, it would.  What part of "this is similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)" do you not understand?

You are also aware that in many cases of Prisoner's Dilemma the prisoners cooperate? You're aware that many simulations of iterated Prisoners Dilemma result in a situation where both sides always cooperate because the recriminations that result from the first defection result in a lower overall score?

While the company that reduced it's prices might gain market share, that would last as long as it took the other companies to reduced their prices too. We're talking about a day at most for many products and a month or two for others. It's simply not enough time in most cases to make the kind of in-roads needed to offset the enormously reduced profits when the other companies also lower their prices and their customers defect back to whoever they were originally using. Starting a price war could very easily get everyone into a situation where they all cut their prices so heavily that all but one or two of them goes out of business.
Okay.  So lowering the corporate tax rates may not have an effect on consumer costs.  That still doesn't mean the situation we have now where the consumers bear the corporate tax burden is fair.  How would you suggest we rectify this problem?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 03, 2010, 03:52:11 am
1) Corporations maintain very high standard of living for its highest echelon of leadership.

2) Because they make lots of money, they make things cheaper for consumers.

3) Government raises taxes on highest echelon of leadership in corporation.  Leaders find it difficult to maintain as insanely high a standard of living as before (poor guys have to by a Corvette instead of a Maserati)

4) To compensate for lost pay due to taxes, corporations raise prices so leadership can afford Maserati.

5) People pay more. 

Tax the **** out of the corporations and let the people see how selfish they really are.  Target will reduce prices to attract Wal-Mart's disgruntled customers, then Wal-Mart will reduce again to compete with Target, as Wal-Mart leaders realize slightly-reduced massive paychecks are better than no paychecks at all.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 04:02:49 am
I have no ideological objections to taxing corporations, though you don't want to kill them.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 03, 2010, 04:12:00 am
4) To compensate for lost pay due to taxes, corporations raise prices so leadership can afford Maserati.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: IceFire on April 03, 2010, 01:20:46 pm
if you don't treat it there is nothing for the pathogen to adapt to, it could in theory become more (or more likely less) deadly, but there is no reason to think it would be at all likely that a bacteria/virus/parasite would become resistant to a treatment in the absence of said treatment. it 'can happen' in the same way a human 'can' in a single generation develop wings and fly, evolution does not work that way, you are wrong.

TL;RD
lrn2darwin
The pathogen is still going to be mutating at a "normal" rate so it will change and will sometimes change quickly regardless of if a treatment is being administered.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Ford Prefect on April 03, 2010, 01:24:46 pm
4) To compensate for lost pay due to taxes, corporations raise prices so leadership can afford Maserati.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc
Ah yes-- in forming my present views on the issue of CEO compensation in the US, I completely neglected to account for this 22-second clip of Data laughing.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 03, 2010, 02:00:41 pm
4) To compensate for lost pay due to taxes, corporations raise prices so leadership can afford Maserati.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc

Nuclear's actually right - see the Tax Burden explanation.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 06:30:28 pm
The pathogen is still going to be mutating at a "normal" rate so it will change and will sometimes change quickly regardless of if a treatment is being administered.

the only thing that would have a potential effect on would be vaccines, and they have a limited window of usefulness to begin with.
as far as antibiotics go it would not have an effect, because, as I've said, a microbe cannot adapt to something that it is not exposed to.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mars on April 04, 2010, 12:24:40 am
The pathogen is still going to be mutating at a "normal" rate so it will change and will sometimes change quickly regardless of if a treatment is being administered.

the only thing that would have a potential effect on would be vaccines, and they have a limited window of usefulness to begin with.
as far as antibiotics go it would not have an effect, because, as I've said, a microbe cannot adapt to something that it is not exposed to.

 While the pathogen exists, it's mutating. The only thing treatment does as far as that goes is isolate the strains that are immune, it does not MAKE anything immune.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 04, 2010, 12:29:22 am
I have no ideological objections to taxing corporations, though you don't want to kill them.

No, of course not, but they can afford to bear the burden...the rest of us can't.   And it's frankly unfair they punish us for their taxes being raised.

4) To compensate for lost pay due to taxes, corporations raise prices so leadership can afford Maserati.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc

Dude, don't troll.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Flipside on April 04, 2010, 11:21:02 am
Cleaned and unlocked for now, try to behave.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mister J on April 04, 2010, 11:58:29 am
I guess I'll repost and slightly edit my stuff from the other thread:

Quote
that experiment does not address the origin of the resistant bacteria, it simply proves that resistant strains exist and are in the wild.

actually, what it does address is the fact that exposure to a treatment has nothing to do with whether resistance develops or not. It just happens that way at random.

It's kinda like how Lamarck and Darwin had differing opinions on how giraffes got longer necks. Darwin's idea, which is currently the one accepted today, is that Giraffes did not develop longer necks specifically because they needed to get to that higher foliage, it just happened that giraffes with longer necks had a better chance of survival. Those giraffes had little long necked babies and they flourished, having spread their advantageous phenotype to the next generation.

Just the same with bacteria. Bacteria did not suddenly adapt to antibiotics specifically because they were exposed to them, it just happened that bacteria existed that were resistant, having been born with a random mutation that makes them different, and had a better chance of survival. Those bacteria flourished through dividing or transferring their genetic info "horizontally*" and flourished, having spread their advantageous phenotype to generations in both their own and subsequent levels of the phylogenetic tree.

so to reiterate, in answering the question, "how do resistant strains exist?" Current evidence points to "it just happened at random." Given that  gazillions of any one species of bacteria are created at any moment, it's not hard to believe. Selective pressure (such as antibiotic use or misuse) just accelerates the process by making the environment favorable to certain bacterial types, forcing them to adapt, by (again) random mutation.

*basically, one bacteria shares genetic information (which can include resistance) to another without creating offspring, which helps a bacteria evolve.

that's pretty much all I have to say about it.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 12:00:22 pm
I think that's what Bobbau is saying. His argument is that the pre-existing mutation will not be selected for without antibiotics.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mister J on April 04, 2010, 12:06:28 pm
oh... I thought he meant that antibiotics directly influence resistance in bacteria. My argument was that antibiotics merely act as an environment in which resistant strains can thrive as compared to susceptible bacterial strains, as more of an indirect effect as part of natural selection.

the fact that resistant strains were resistant to said antibiotics were just coincidental as part of random genetic mutation, not by the antibiotics themselves. They just got lucky, and just happened to have a superior mechanism for disabling or reducing the effect of antibiotics, that's all.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 12:08:44 pm
Quite so. But without the selective pressure, the trait will never evolve (using the technical description of evolution as a change in allele frequency in a population.)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Flipside on April 04, 2010, 12:09:45 pm
Humans find it hard to think on Evolutionary terms though, it's not very comforting for someone to know that, although they are dying from MS, that in a few million years time, we will probably be immune to it. I suppose there are arguments for and against the use of medication, from a purely personal level, it can save your life, from a longer-term, wider field point of view, it might be a fuse that we've lit, and we aren't even sure what the barrel contains. Bacteria, at least those that are frequently in contact with humans are no longer entirely at the whims of natural selection, as we come up with more and more powerful treatments, so the survival conditions get harsher, which produces more and more hardy strains of bacteria.

It's sort of like an Arms Race, it's been theorized that it would be impossible for a disease to wipe out any species entirely, because immune systems were evolving as quickly as the diseases, personally, I think that's where the future of medicine lay, not in supplying the body with a pill that kills the disease, but more on innoculation and resistance to the disease in the first place. I think if we become too reliant on 'pills', we are leaving the immune system too vulnerable to the more hardy strains of disease.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 12:27:33 pm
I have no ideological objections to taxing corporations, though you don't want to kill them.

No, of course not, but they can afford to bear the burden...the rest of us can't.   And it's frankly unfair they punish us for their taxes being raised.
But that's the way it is Nuclear.  Its unfair certainly, but honestly I'm not sure how much differently you would act if you were running a Fortune 500 company.  Backstabbing and hostile takeovers are just business as usual at that level, and if you want to swim with sharks, you better grow some teeth.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 12:28:59 pm
I have no ideological objections to taxing corporations, though you don't want to kill them.

No, of course not, but they can afford to bear the burden...the rest of us can't.   And it's frankly unfair they punish us for their taxes being raised.
But that's the way it is Nuclear.  Its unfair certainly, but honestly I'm not sure how much differently you would act if you were running a Fortune 500 company.  Backstabbing and hostile takeovers are just business as usual at that level, and if you want to swim with sharks, you better grow some teeth.

You've argued that 'this is the way things are' but supplied no reasons as to why this is the way things should be.

Not to get all patriotic here, but that line of reasoning about taxation would have kept us a British colony.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: mister J on April 04, 2010, 12:35:00 pm
Quote
I think if we become too reliant on 'pills', we are leaving the immune system too vulnerable to the more hardy strains of disease.

That's true. That's why doctors (at least where I live anyway, here in the Philippines) are being taught rational drug use and to stop overprescribing the most powerful antibiotic for something that can be cured with a cheaper, still effective narrower spectrum antibiotic, provided that the illness requires antibiotic therapy in the first place.

I've seen time and time again in my practice patients who come to me and expect me to prescribe a pill for something that doesn't really need a pill to cure. (self limiting viral illnesses like the common cold for example.) We sometimes underestimate the power of our own immune system to adapt and beat off invaders. That doesn't mean we should stop using antibiotics altogether, instead we should choose when to use them and use them wisely.

Not sure how it's being taught in the US, but as our medical curriculum was patterned after an American system, I'm guessing it's fairly close?

Quote
But without the selective pressure, the trait will never evolve (using the technical description of evolution as a change in allele frequency in a population.)

Yes, I would say that such traits won't "evolve" given that definition, but random mutations will still arise anyway. Without the selective pressure, resistant strains may still exist, and may still have a chance to thrive (this would however be slowed down considerably given that it's random, and that there is no advantage or disadvantage for the strain to exist)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2010, 12:55:54 pm
That's pretty close to how it is here too.  Decidedly not helped by the ridiculous amount of advertisements for prescription medication that (no source here) make people think they need it for some reason or another.  Personally, I haven't taken a pill of any kind since about a year ago, tylenol/asprin included.

Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 12:57:48 pm
I have no ideological objections to taxing corporations, though you don't want to kill them.

No, of course not, but they can afford to bear the burden...the rest of us can't.   And it's frankly unfair they punish us for their taxes being raised.
But that's the way it is Nuclear.  Its unfair certainly, but honestly I'm not sure how much differently you would act if you were running a Fortune 500 company.  Backstabbing and hostile takeovers are just business as usual at that level, and if you want to swim with sharks, you better grow some teeth.

You've argued that 'this is the way things are' but supplied no reasons as to why this is the way things should be.

Not to get all patriotic here, but that line of reasoning about taxation would have kept us a British colony.
I don't support it at all, and I wish it would change, but I don't see a way to change it, unless you can think of a way to force companies to avoid shifting costs onto others.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 03:35:33 pm
The only pills I take are anti-histamines to knock down these really nasty allergies of mine, and only those twice a year for about 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 04, 2010, 10:33:33 pm
No, of course not, but they can afford to bear the burden...the rest of us can't.   And it's frankly unfair they punish us for their taxes being raised.
But that's the way it is Nuclear.  Its unfair certainly, but honestly I'm not sure how much differently you would act if you were running a Fortune 500 company.  Backstabbing and hostile takeovers are just business as usual at that level, and if you want to swim with sharks, you better grow some teeth.
[/quote]

I fail to see any justification for screwing the poor.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 10:45:53 pm
I just thought I'd post in this thread to show how diabolical certain corporations are.

There was once a corporation that settled on a contract with the government to help relocate thousands of refugees during the aftermath of some war. They actually hired thugs to not only attack their competing corporations, but also to, under the guise as pirates, attack the very government that they were working with. For a while, this played right into their hands. The government gave the corporation more and more control over a given area. The corporation even slaughtered innocent civilians to accomplish its ends. In one appalling example, they prodded union workers into a riot just so they could assassinate the union leaders in the chaos.

It was only due to a minor slipup that the government found out the truth about this corporation. Even by then, the corporation developed such a huge private army that it proved a formidable match for the government itself. While the corporation slaughtered innocent civilians at a whim, the government ended up treating the corporation's executives to a fair trial. I was there, I even had to protect these bastards.... made me sick to my stomach it did!

I believe the name started with an M....
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 05, 2010, 10:49:33 pm
Microsoft?
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 10:52:19 pm
No not Microsoft.

Come on guys, you should be able to guess this.  ;)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 10:54:43 pm
Derelict reference.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 05, 2010, 10:56:03 pm
Well that would be why, I never played Derelict
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 10:57:16 pm
Well that would be why, I never played Derelict

I never played Derelict

never played Derelict

 :eek2:

Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 10:57:45 pm
Well that would be why, I never played Derelict

Be smote for your heresy.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Blue Lion on April 05, 2010, 10:58:26 pm
I've never played any of the campaigns
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 11:01:32 pm
It says you've been registered since 2001. This is madness!  :shaking:
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mongoose on April 05, 2010, 11:59:50 pm
Sweet Jesus, I can feel a breeze from that reference whizzing over my head.  Well-played. :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 06, 2010, 12:07:36 am
THIS
IS
SSSSSSSSSSSSNAKE
(http://poetry4kids.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/snakes-snakes01.jpg)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 06, 2010, 01:10:47 am
THIS IS PSYCHO MANTIS.  ALL YOUR THOUGHTS ARE BELONG TO ME.
(http://www.animalwebguide.com/Praying-Mantis-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2010, 01:11:18 am
I moved my mouse over to another USB port.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Mongoose on April 06, 2010, 01:24:47 am
/me read that as, "I moved my house over to another USB port."
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: watsisname on April 06, 2010, 02:16:08 am
/me had to reread Mongoose's post twice before noticing the difference.

*facepalm*
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: karajorma on April 06, 2010, 02:49:56 am
Okay guys, back on topic.
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 06, 2010, 02:53:24 am
No! 

And to prove it, I read this thread five stars :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: Kosh on April 06, 2010, 04:54:42 am
I've never played any of the campaigns


All units, terminate the traitor! :p
Title: Re: Fox News tries to prove Tea Party activists not extremists... and fails
Post by: karajorma on April 06, 2010, 04:57:09 am
Nevermind.