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Based on the private encouragement of a number of individuals, I've decided to (a) return (b) come to you guys with a proposition.
I would like to assemble a team to, collaboratively, run through Relentless and polish it up to current community standards. I see one way we could do this is to get a group of, lets say ideally, 26 individuals reasonably experienced in FRED, each one goes through one mission and really polishes it up. Of course all these individuals will get their name in the credits. Once this process is completed, "Relentless 1.5" will be released as an open beta.
It will be hard work though. I began writing this when I was 13. All the guts of the missions are labeled strangely and whatnot, I clearly never intended the guts to be seen by anyone but me. It will be an interesting experience if you choose to offer your assistance, to say the least. ;)
In return for this assistance, I would be willing to add a few SOC loops to the main campaign for "Relentless 1.5", maybe some other bonus content too. :)
"Relentless 1.5" will be an open beta. It is only after the community's remaining concerns with the campaign are dealt with then the finalized version of Relentless, Relentless 2.0, will be released. It will be acceptable by community standards, because it will be scrutinized by the community before its released, instead of simply the team I manage to assemble. This will then be the definitive version of the campaign, something that I and all the others who would contribute could be proud of.
In additional return for all this, providing I am not able to obtain summer employment (I live in Detroit, so this is a near-certainty) I would also make a sequel to Relentless:
This sequel would follow the rest of the GTVA as it struggles to survive the Shivan onslaught.
So, what say you?
EDIT: I would like to add that if you are interested in becoming part of the fix team in any way or amount, please send me an email at [email protected] as well as relevant notes if you want.
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I suggest you make the sequel instead of polishing the version that you already have.
Or you can do what the ST:R team did to the original Silent Threat: Let your imagination fly and rework it completely.
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I suggest you make the sequel instead of polishing the version that you already have.
Or you can do what the ST:R team did to the original Silent Threat: Let your imagination fly and rework it completely.
Well the problem with that is that the version of Relentless that is currently available is not up to community standards, so I've been told. I've also had a lot of comments to the effect that its a solid mod that just needs a few more tweaks. Basically I'd like to turn it from a laughing stock into a respectable campaign before I move on to other things.
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What TopAce is suggesting is to take a close look at the plot, and the existing missions, stripping both down to the bare basics and then rebuilding it in greater glory than before.
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Getting a team together is unlikely because talented FREDders are at a premium. However, the polishing work probably won't be a crushing burden even for a single FREDder.
I'll try to play through and give you some suggestions as to what you can fix up.
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What TopAce is suggesting is to take a close look at the plot, and the existing missions, stripping both down to the bare basics and then rebuilding it in greater glory than before.
That's exactly what I'm trying to get a team together for. Quite frankly I think only a few missions really need to be rebuilt from the ground up The rest are just due for lots of technical/detail troubleshooting where I see an endless stream of beta releases if I am the only guy working on it (release, fix, release, fix, etc..)
Getting a team together is unlikely because talented FREDders are at a premium. However, the polishing work probably won't be a crushing burden even for a single FREDder.
I'll try to play through and give you some suggestions as to what you can fix up.
Its a lot more work polishing your own campaign than polishing someone else's. As I've said before I'm really sick of it. I would be willing to go through and tweak/add content but I'm not willing to put every mission under a technical/detail magnifying glass myself. Clearly, I'm not very good at that anyways. Fresh eyes and perspectives can also fix the things that I would continue to overlook. For example, I believe I am in the minority when I consider that a cinematic mission where A1 doesn't play a crucial role is a good thing. Someone with a more mainstream perspective on the subject could tweak the mission in such a way that it would be more enjoyable by the whole community.
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I'm sure many people would be happy to provide feedback, but you'll probably end up having to do much of the actual fixeage yourself.
It's work, but with other people pointing out what's wrong and giving suggestions, it's not awful work.
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That's why my first suggestion was to make the sequel instead. If you're sick of the first episode, then it's not worth working on it.
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Well.... I made my proposition clear. If the community liked a lot of what they saw in the mod and wants a solid Relentless imma need some volunteers from the community to help me. Heck, I would even make a "credits mission" at the end of the campaign as some people do.
Even if I only get 5 volunteers, having each person go thru 5 missions to patch up wont be more than a few hours for each of them, and once it is released as 2.0 and highlighted their names will be immortal since it will be a really polished work, furthermore, the community will end up getting a far improved campaign AND a sequel campaign. I really think I am meeting you guys in the middle here.
I'm making this thread to get a barometer of interest in my proposition, so far its not been so positive but there have only been 3 people posting. I would like to add that if you are interested in becoming part of the fix team in any way or amount, please send me an email at [email protected] as well as relevant notes if you want.
First post updated
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;-)
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Maybe if I find the time and lack of procrastination to finish my existing active commitments I'll sign up to test.
...and possibly scream at the plotholes.
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I played the first mission so far and it was enjoyable. I was going through the second mission and the freighters stopped for a while at the destroyer without anything happening. I didn't know if an event was broken, so I set time compression to really high for a few seconds and before I knew it, a destroyer jumped in, wiped out everything, and killed me. :D
Edit: It is good you didn't give up, Deka.
That, sir, is the only mission to my knowledge that actually needs reconstructing from the ground up to elimate that obnoxious delay. I'd handle that one myself... heh. :drevil:
Maybe if I find the time and lack of procrastination to finish my existing active commitments I'll sign up to test.
...and possibly scream at the plotholes.
plotholes? do tell. with spoiler tags of course. also, please wait till you finish the campaign before you think you've spotted a plothole. ;)
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I believe NGTM-1R is experienced enough to know that. :P
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Personally, I had no problem runnign the campaign. No crashes or anything (but that was with E's fixes).
IMHO; you should work on your plot a bit more. It has quite a bit of holes and look like you tried to cramm everything in it at once.
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Okay, now two people have mentioned plotholes, and I am still seriously confused as to what plotholes you are referring to. :wtf:
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You military isn't really acting like the military
- you got ships shooting at other ships without having a positive ID. In fact, you have ships opening fire simply because another unindentified ship asked them to. The Snipes thing. You'd think he had an IFF on that fighter.
- Ordering execution not only for minor infringements, but also something the commander couldn't see coming or do anything about it (AWACS destroyed by supernova)? And then giving that same commander who's execution you ordered (and who knows it) a fleet under his command and sending him off?
- the player even following with the moronic rebellion
- the GTVA actually agreeing to handing an Orion over to the pirates
etc..
- Pirates having a vast amount of resources without any explanation
- a single small transport (elyisum..that thing can't carry more than two dozen marines) capturing a Orion destroyer..the same Orion destroyer just standing there waiting to be captured and NOT wasting the transport and the frigate with his beams
- pirates having a secret high-tech frigate
- pirates retrofitting an Orion into a super-destroyer within days..with no shipyards to boot
etc..
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- Ordering execution not only for minor infringements, but also something the commander couldn't see coming or do anything about it (AWACS destroyed by supernova)? And then giving that same commander who's execution you ordered (and who knows it) a fleet under his command and sending him off?
The way I saw it, that ordered execution wasn't what it appeared, but rather a ruse to get the general to show his true colors, which he did. From ingame messages it looks like they were onto Lennes and suspected him of putting together a rebellion well before the AWACS was destroyed, but lacked solid proof to act on.
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And if he wasn't a traitor?
Condeming a man to death (guilty or no)kinda pushes him into not going back, or rebelling, don't you think?
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I'd say it pushes an innocant man to run and hide.
A rebellion isn't something that happens form one moment to the next, it has to be build up. If command was wrong and Lennes had tried to run on his own, or came back to either face the sentence or try to get a fair trial, they could have changed the punishment to something more just (probably dishonorable discharge and some time in prison, to plactate the Vasudans).
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You military isn't really acting like the military
- you got ships shooting at other ships without having a positive ID. In fact, you have ships opening fire simply because another unindentified ship asked them to. The Snipes thing. You'd think he had an IFF on that fighter.
- Ordering execution not only for minor infringements, but also something the commander couldn't see coming or do anything about it (AWACS destroyed by supernova)? And then giving that same commander who's execution you ordered (and who knows it) a fleet under his command and sending him off?
- the player even following with the moronic rebellion
- the GTVA actually agreeing to handing an Orion over to the pirates
etc..
- Pirates having a vast amount of resources without any explanation
- a single small transport (elyisum..that thing can't carry more than two dozen marines) capturing a Orion destroyer..the same Orion destroyer just standing there waiting to be captured and NOT wasting the transport and the frigate with his beams
- pirates having a secret high-tech frigate
- pirates retrofitting an Orion into a super-destroyer within days..with no shipyards to boot
etc..
thats not really a plothole. The CO of the leviathan that shot the elysium was doing so under extreme pressure/impulse, as he might have heard about the mind control incident that happened to the vasudans and thought he was doing the right thing
the snipes thing, well, snipes was likely undercover posing as one of them, so because their communication from high command was cut off since the pirates attacked the arcadia (as explainined in ingame messages) the IFF status did not correct. Also, its against BETAC to shoot escape pods anyway, so of course the CO of the Kiev would react to save the pod.
the player doesent really have a choice to follow the moronic rebellion or not, since by the time he finds out about the rebellion he is stuck in a shivan infested system as part of the rebel squadron, so the only other non-shivans in system, the Vasudans, wouldent have much sympathy for A1. Not much of a choice there.
The option for GTVA would either be to hand over the Orion or lose a Hecate and all its crew. Pretty logical, if you ask me.
There is an explanation for the pirates having a vast amount of resources. In one of the breifings or somewhere it mentions stuff about the GTVA not being able to control pirate activity since it has been fighting the NTF and the Shivans.
An Elysium can very well capture an orion destroyer. A similar event happens with an Isis and a Hoover in Stormfront. An elysium is actually pretty big and can carry at least 80 or so men with still plenty of space for the ship's subsytstems, etc. 80 elite marines against 5-10000 unarmed men with no combat training, demoralized under a wacko C.O.? they wouldn't have much trouble.
They were hiding the frigate in an asteroid belt which also had a lot of interference from the planets magnetic fields and all the moons and crap. its all in the briefings and stuff.
the quick refitting of the orion.... yeah, i admit that one was a stretch, only cuz idk how they build a whole nother chunk on it without a shipyard, since the shipyard was destroyed in a previous mission. touche'! If I make a sequel, i will come up with an explanation for that.
cmon people, my inbox is empty. i take it you guys, despite the "vocal" crowd, are actually satisfied with the mod, or you're not satisfied and also not interested in improving it, which goes against what a few ppl have told me in private.
:bump:
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The consensus seems to be that it would be advisable to begin anew, incorporating any lessons you might have learned, rather than attempting to retrofit your existing work.
It seems silly to ask for "26 FREDers", a veritable army, to fix one man's flawed opus. Those people would probably rather dabble in fresh ideas of their own.
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Deka1184, with FREDders at a premium in the community today, you probably can't just expect volunteers to help out with your mod. Even Blue Planet, one of the biggest 'groundswell' projects that picked up a team due to popularity, isn't anywhere near that size.
What you can expect, though, is better testers and feedback. I think lots of people would be happy to help with that.
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I really wasn't thinking I'd get anywhere near 26, i was just throwing out an ideal for examples sake.
Really 2-4 would be all I need. But I suppose even that is too much to ask.
But yeah might as well lock the topic since I've already stated quite a few times im not gonna fix it all myself. It was just an idea.
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he snipes thing, well, snipes was likely undercover posing as one of them, so because their communication from high command was cut off since the pirates attacked the arcadia (as explainined in ingame messages) the IFF status did not correct. Also, its against BETAC to shoot escape pods anyway, so of course the CO of the Kiev would react to save the pod.
The option for GTVA would either be to hand over the Orion or lose a Hecate and all its crew. Pretty logical, if you ask me.
There is an explanation for the pirates having a vast amount of resources. In one of the breifings or somewhere it mentions stuff about the GTVA not being able to control pirate activity since it has been fighting the NTF and the Shivans.
An Elysium can very well capture an orion destroyer. A similar event happens with an Isis and a Hoover in Stormfront. An elysium is actually pretty big and can carry at least 80 or so men with still plenty of space for the ship's subsytstems, etc. 80 elite marines against 5-10000 unarmed men with no combat training, demoralized under a wacko C.O.? they wouldn't have much trouble.
They were hiding the frigate in an asteroid belt which also had a lot of interference from the planets magnetic fields and all the moons and crap. its all in the briefings and stuff.
The whole snipes thing makes no sense.
He was hunting a lone escape pod. Why pose as anyone? Why have a permenatly removed IFF instead of a nearly turned off one (so you can turn it on)?
Snipes even told them he was SOC.
Did they say "everyone cut your engines till we sort this out"? That would be a logical course of action. No, they continue shooting.
And no, if it was an Argo..maaaybe.
Orions have armed marines on them, they have weapon lockers and they have ship weapons that they don't use to shoot down the Elysium. Trained military personnel > pirates.
The Orion just WAITS there, even tough there's nothing preventing it from escaping. Also, the Hecate has its' guns operational.
And ye, I wasn't wondering how they kept the Frigate hidden - that is perfectly fine. How they built such high-tech frigate in the first place is the big question.
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I think you'd be better of to just make a new campaign, keep it short, like 8 missions max. Then when you have those missions, make a thread for playtesting and get a few people to look at what you have. Then polish and bug test it from there.
Completely fixing up your broken campaign that has like 20 missions or so seems like a daunting task and experienced Fredders (as Battuta already pointed out) are not easy to come by. Especially when you say that the SEXP's are arranged in such a way that they would only make sense to you.
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I admittedly haven't played the campaign yet, but I don't see why there's any reason to advise Deka to just start from scratch. Why not just bugfix the mechanical FRED-related problems and leave the rest as-is? There may be some issues with plot points, but this would hardly be the first campaign to exhibit that. If Deka doesn't want to rewrite the entire campaign, then he shouldn't feel like he has to.
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I admittedly haven't played the campaign yet, but I don't see why there's any reason to advise Deka to just start from scratch. Why not just bugfix the mechanical FRED-related problems and leave the rest as-is? There may be some issues with plot points, but this would hardly be the first campaign to exhibit that. If Deka doesn't want to rewrite the entire campaign, then he shouldn't feel like he has to.
Then I suggest you play the campaign first before you post?
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My position wouldn't change even if I had. It's completely counterproductive to do nothing but suggest that Deka completely re-do the entire project when he clearly has no interest in doing so.
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My position wouldn't change even if I had. It's completely counterproductive to do nothing but suggest that Deka completely re-do the entire project when he clearly has no interest in doing so.
New campaign =/= remaking this one?
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...wait, what? Deka has stated that he's interested in getting the issues in this release ironed out, and possibly making a sequel someday. Yet I've now seen several people instead suggest that he just remake the entire campaign from scratch, or even make a completely-new one, which doesn't seem like incredibly-productive advice when that's not what's being asked in the first place.
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Well, he's said repeatedly he's not going to fix it himself...so someone suggested just making a brand new, much shorter campaign instead of fixing this 20+ mission one.
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He said he's not going to "fix it ALL on his own". Not the all. For me that looks like he wants to fix it, but only if he gets help in doing so.
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High Max, trust me. I skipped out on the crazy shivan madness early on, but it comes back later.
I didn't not go to that system out of laziness. I just don't believe the GTVA are stupid enough to make the exact same mistake twice.
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Let's consider the FS2 campaign for a moment:
The GTVA beat back the initial Shivan thrust and went into the nebula. Then the Ravana showed them that it was a mistake.
After they destroyed the Ravana, they went back in again. The Sathanas #1 showed them it was a mistake.
After they took down the Sath, they went back in yet again. And we all know what happened next.
So your argument should more be like, "I don't think the GTVA are stupid enough to make the same mistake a fourth time." :P
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They way I interpret FS2, it didn't matter what the GTVA was doing. 80 juggernauts were on the way to take care of them.
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Well, in the cases of the Rav and Sath, the Colossus alone could beat either of those. The entire GTVA fleet could not challenge 80 juggernauts.
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You mean, Alpha 1 and the Colly could take down the Sath. The Colly alone don't stand a chance.
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Always interesting how an innocent joke can lead to a real, sometimes even heated, discussion. :nod:
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What's heated here?
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You mean, Alpha 1 and the Colly could take down the Sath. The Colly alone don't stand a chance.
Behold the "Alpha 1 is God!" statement.
That's what's getting heated.
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When calculating who would win in a Sath vs. Colly engagement, It is necessary to take firing arcs into account. If you view space around the Sathanas as a 6 sided cube, and place the colly on a random "side" of the Sathanas, the colossus will win 5/6 engagements.
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Except for how the Sathanas can turn.
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If the Sathanas can turn, then its only fair that the colossus can move (and not in a baseball bat sense)
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If the Sathanas can turn, then its only fair that the colossus can move (and not in a baseball bat sense)
The Sathanas can turn faster than the Colossus can alter its relative bearing.
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;-)
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If the Sathanas can turn, then its only fair that the colossus can move (and not in a baseball bat sense)
The Sathanas can turn faster than the Colossus can move.
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Alright, I got the point guys. I was just referencing the time in
Beyond the Mirror
Where the Sath came in alongside the Colossus and couldn't turn in time.
And High Max.... Dude seriously just play the campaign. Clearly you want to see exploration into freaky shivan systems. You will get far more of that than you wish for down the road.
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The mission is supposed to end when you hit 1%. For some reason the mission ending SEXPs only work for some people.
The sequel would follow the rest of the GTVA as it struggles to seal off the Shivans. Of course, I'd bring in many subplots.
The Shivans got into Sol the same way they got into Ross128 in the first great war, by using the node stabilizing properties of the Lucifer. The Terran portal was in construction for a long time, the secrets unlocked by studying the Knossos just allowed them to finalize it.
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;-)
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The sequel would follow the rest of the GTVA as it struggles to seal off the Shivans. Of course, I'd bring in many subplots.
The Shivans got into Sol the same way they got into Ross128 in the first great war, by using the node stabilizing properties of the Lucifer. The Terran portal was in construction for a long time, the secrets unlocked by studying the Knossos just allowed them to finalize it.
Canonically, no ship is known to have node stabilizing properties; rather, Shivans are simply adept at utilizing unstable subspace nodes.
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;-)
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Canonically, no ship is known to have node stabilizing properties; rather, Shivans are simply adept at utilizing unstable subspace nodes.
I am following the play that the Lucifer in particular has node stabilizing capabilities, as indicated in the first great war when the Lucifer battlegroup comes from nowhere, and in a few points in Derelict.
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yes, one that was previously very unstable, but the shivans found and exploited just as they did in R128
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The Sathanas can turn faster than the Colossus can move.
True...but the Collie will get at least one, if not 2-3 salvos before the Sath completes it's turn. That's an advantage.
And the Collie performs better on higher difficulties, since he uses more of his beams.
The re-fire rate of the Sath is what makes it dangerous.
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High Max, do us a favour and read the wiki, would you? Learn to do some research yourself.
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The Hard Light wiki has information about every aspect of FS2 and FSO modding. It has details on every retail ship and weapon. It has the statistics of everything in root_fs2.vp in an easily understandable format. It is very well organized. Your inability to use it correctly is not my problem.
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And you don't even need to use the search function in order to find this particular bit of information. Click the FreeSpace 2 link on the sidebar, click Weapons Database on the following page, and you're there.
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You can't expect every obscure piece of fanon to be documented. Especially old stuff that newer people (like me) have never heard of.
Also: Why would the Gargant be there if its not released? If INFSCP released the model, I'd be glad to make a page for it. Otherwise, it may as well not exist.
Also, you are dead wrong on Shivan weapons doing less damage per second. An LRed outdamages even the BFGreen. Look at the weapon comparison table's "sustained damage per second", which is the one that really counts.The only case where a shivan beam deals less damage per second is the SRed being slightly weaker than the SVas (which is a destroyer-mounted weapon).
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I did easily find what I was looking for when it came to the specs of canon weapons, and ironically the Shivan beams deal less damage per second.
What are you on about? The Shivan beams have far higher DPS, outstripping their Terran and Vasudan counterparts handily.
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The "Damage Per Second" there is wrong, I'm pretty sure.
There is no way in hell a SRed is worse than a SGreen, which is the epitome of ****.
EDIT: The "DPS" listed there is the damage dealt per second only when it is firing. Which is a very stupid way to calculate it when you already have a damage per pulse... Excuse me while I change it to something more sensical!
EDIT 2: Done. Such is the beauty of a wiki.
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I compared the SGreen to the SRed and the SGreen says 1,155 damage per second http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SGreen while the SRed says 1,100 damage per second http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SRed. BGreen says 6,600 while the LRed says 3,300. However, the Shivans have more damage per second when I compare the BFRed to the BFGreen and this was the exception (I checked again). Of course the Shivans have a faster recharge rate and longer lived beam blasts no matter what size the anti-warship beam is.
These values aren't telling the full story (if they're even accurate at all.) The fail to compensate for the smaller cycle time between beam shots, which makes the Shivan beams far more powerful than their competitors.
The LRed, for instance, actually has no cycle time, and can fire again as soon as it's done with one blast.
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Ahem. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_(FS2)#Beam_Cannons)
look at "sustained damage potential per second". That takes into account refire rates.
IMO the damage stats section on the beam cannon pages should link to that page.
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I cant completed Mission 23 either. My ship is stuck at 1%, and all subsystems destroyed.
How do I get past that?
HighMax said "Ctrl+Shift+S" , but I'm not sure where to do that. (In game did nothing)
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Techroom mission simulator.
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Seems like at least 20% or so people are glitching out on that mission. Perhaps its a difference between the normal build and the INF build. All the testing I did was done on the normal build. Mr. E and Norbert however were probably working with the inferno build.
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Nope, I was playing with a normal 3.6.10 build, since the campaign didn't even want to start with a 3.6.12 build when I started to play it, but due to being busy I havn't played FS2 in a while and thus didn't arrived at mission 23 yet.