Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Scourge of Ages on April 06, 2010, 11:02:55 pm
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In the previous Shivan theories thread, it was suggested a number of times that Capella was destroyed in order to somehow provide a benefit for the Shivans other than wiping out a Terran system. Maybe it was the secret to opening some sort of portal to another dimension, and such.
After just a little thinking, I would like to add my support to this type of theory.
In the final cutscene of FS2, the Sathani start the nova, and some enter subspace while others stayed behind and were consumed. Where did they jump to???? An intrasystem jump could not have taken them out of range of the nova, and there were no intersystem jump nodes that weren't already or soon would be collapsed by the GTVA.
The only plausable explanation I can think of is that the Sathani opened up a new subspace node in the vicinity of the Capella star. Possibly a super node.
(Apologies if this has been discussed too much)
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While it may not be as exciting - isn't it possible it was an intrasystem jump to a node, from which they left Capella entirely? It's been a while since I saw the cutscene, but it seems that the ones that did jump left a few seconds before the star went nova, but I don't know if that really leaves them enough time.
On another note - if they were trying to create some sort of "super node", why Capella? Why not any other star?
I dunno, I've always felt there was some specific reason they wanted the GTVA out of the Nebula. But I'm no expert in the lore by any means.
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Fluidic space (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/8472_Theory) :nod:
[JUSTACOUPLEMORETHINGS]
There's a big difference between a nova and a supernova. Using the term "nova" as shorthand for "supernova" is bad practice.
Regarding an intrasystem jump to a jump node: is the requirement of recharging a jump drive before another jump canon or not? I know it was used in AoA, but I can't recall any time it was mentioned in the canon.
[/JUSTACOUPLEMORETHINGS]
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;-)
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There's a big difference between a nova and a supernova. Using the term "nova" as shorthand for "supernova" is bad practice.
Regarding an intrasystem jump to a jump node: is the requirement of recharging a jump drive before another jump canon or not? I know it was used in AoA, but I can't recall any time it was mentioned in the canon.
And that's what I get for not wikipedia-ing some things first... I had assumed that "supernova" was just a really big nova. Apparently stars survive going nova.
Almost every mission in FS 1 and 2 indicate that microjumps directly to a node are either not possible or not practical. If such were possible, no ship would ever linger in real space long enough to be bombed or beamed to death. Even Shivan ships.
Maybe they made an intersystem jump without using a node like a command briefing was saying something about 2 missions before.
You mean when the guys said, "As far as we know Shivans require jump nodes."? It is possible they were wrong, but that presumption was based on all observed Shivan behavior so far.
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Regarding an intrasystem jump to a jump node: is the requirement of recharging a jump drive before another jump canon or not? I know it was used in AoA, but I can't recall any time it was mentioned in the canon.
The King's Gambit (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_(FS2)#The_King.27s_Gambit) briefing.
The NTF fleet will enter through the Capella jump node. Each warship will then jump to a rallying point within the Gamma Draconis system. In the interval between jumps, they will re-energize their subspace drives.
Although, the Iceni jumped out pretty quickly through the Knossos after arriving(less than a minute), just a few missions later. We don't know how long this recharge is supposed to take, but logically, one would probably figure bigger ships would take longer than smaller ships.
EDIT: My half-baked guess/conjecture might be that showing right up at the node would basically force you to actually be a literal(nigh-stationary) sitting duck while you wait for your drive to recharge before you'd be able to jump out; therefore, most ships jump in a moderate distance away from a node they wish to enter, so their drive recharge occurs during their normal-space transit time to the node.
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Considering how slowly FS ships move, is there any significant difference between being in motion and being a sitting duck?
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Maybe nodes have some sort of sphere of influence, making it impossible to exit an intrasystem jump too close or else space collapses on itself or something.
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Considering how slowly FS ships move, is there any significant difference between being in motion and being a sitting duck?
It'd sure make Mjolnir cannons and node blockades more effective. :lol: Predict with near absolute certainty where potential targets will appear, leaving or arriving. Just line up the Orion broadsides at the node, and shout "Pull!" whenever a vortex appears.
The other potential problem I might see is the fact that a node is a moderately finite amount of space. We don't know if there are safeguards inherent in the technology, but perhaps it would be possible to accidentally jump 'into' a ship already waiting at the node. A large ship, like a destroyer, could certainly cause a lot of trouble, whether waiting or arriving.
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;-)
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Wut you talking about?
Tech room states that shivans are dependant on nodes, just as the T&V are.
When did a Sathanas jump from system to system without using a node?
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Since the supernova travels at, at most, light speed they would have had possibly as much as an hour to escape out of the Gamma Drac node.
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Regarding an intrasystem jump to a jump node: is the requirement of recharging a jump drive before another jump canon or not? I know it was used in AoA, but I can't recall any time it was mentioned in the canon.
[/JUSTACOUPLEMORETHINGS]
Why would we have to assume that the masters of subspace, who are an extremely old and elder species, are limited by the constrants that are mentioned in Terran/Vasudan subspace canon? Surely they can do the unexpected.
Let me add: Skeptics have argued that the Shivans made intersystem jumps without using nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya, Regulus and other systems in the Great War. Then 2 missions later, we see what appears to be the remaining Sathani making intersystem jumps without using nodes in that cutscene. I doubt V would include that for nothing. It must mean something.
two scenarios come to mind here
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is the attemt to collaps the knossos device, the following debried or command brief (i cant remember which) specificaly states that the GD/nebular node had stabalised and all that the mission had sucseeded in doing was to blow up the device as the node was no longer dependant on it.
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the final cutscene where the sathanas juganaughts blow up capella, I belive the consensus on this is that the actions of the sathanas fleet caused a special node type for unknown reasons (further suggested by the green as apposed to the typical blue jump vortex, green used as the "special warp" effect in FS)
also all through out fs 1 and 2 it is maintained that the shivans are just as dependant on nodes as t&v but speculates that they can use nodes which are too unstable for us to use, basicaly they have safer/more stable jumpdrives than we do but they still use the same basic physics which is entierly possible if that is the only way to travel faster than light in universe which i think is :v:'s intent
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Also remember something, in the cutscene "The Bastion," the GTD Bastion is seen jumping without a node. My theory as to why: the green/blue/amber/whatever spheres we know and love as jump nodes are placed there by a ship's hud so a fighter pilot knows where the heck the thing is without having to look at his or her sensors and possibly distracting them a battle which could get them killed. so in cutscenes, the nodes are not represented as the cutscenes are not from the perspective of a fighter pilot in a strikecraft
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I think that's exactly how it's always worked in canon, actually. So your theory is correct.
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1
is the attemt to collaps the knossos device, the following debried or command brief (i cant remember which) specificaly states that the GD/nebular node had stabalised and all that the mission had sucseeded in doing was to blow up the device as the node was no longer dependant on it.
Yep, it is canon that the node got stabilized when the Knossos blew up.
Question: Since the Portal got destroyed only a minute or so before the Sath warped out, was it in fact the Meson bomb explosion that stabilized the node, or could it be the Sathanas that was inside?
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It probably just stabilized naturally at some point during the Knossos' 'on' phase.
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Exactly. Think of a Knossos as akin to an engineering team constantly shoring up the levees along the banks of a river to prevent them from breaking. Provided the engineers aren't a bunch of lazy bums, they can presumably fortify the levees faster than the river can erode them away. Now obviously, if the engineers packed up and left for good, the river would eventually undermine and destroy the levees, but provided they did their job well enough, it might take decades for that to happen. In the same way, the operation of the Knossos for the comparatively-short time during the events of FS2 was enough to stabilize it even after the Knossos's destruction, and maybe even for good.
Incidentally, I feel like that aspect of the Knossos ties in nicely with the "Lucifer fleet as cut-off remnants" theory. Based on the Ancient monologues, one would think that the Ancients shut down the Knossos in the face of the overwhelming Shivan advance, which ultimately proved futile in stopping the Lucifer. But by the time the Shivans completely finished off the Ancients and returned to the Knossos, perhaps it had been inactive for long enough to make the node impassable once again, trapping the Lucifer fleet on "our" side.
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;-)
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Actually, one of the late CBs in FS2 says that they are, at least according to Allied experts.
However they can traverse unstable nodes.
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;-)
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I mean I don't see it saying in the tech database that they are dependent on nodes.
Though Shivans have used uncharted nodes and nodes too unstable for Terran and Vasudan vessels, they are as dependent on jump nodes as we are.
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;-)
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Does it really matter?
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For purposes of this discussion...
...no.
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;-)
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Maybe the Shivans made an inter/intrasystem jump all in one. Meaning maybe before the star exploded, they jumped from their position and into the subspace tunnel in between Capella and GD without being in front of the node and then appeared in the middle of the GD system.
The point of this maneuver being? Lose a few dozen Sathanas juggernauts needlessly in an utterly pointless move?
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;-)
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I doubt the Shivans would go so far to make a statement. Shivans might work in mysterious ways but that just seems ****ing retarded.
Well the way I see it, the theory postulated by the game itself is usually more likely to be true than one that is just made up by a fan.
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;-)
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perhaps they needed a lot of nebular gas to feul the fleet, and gamma drax was too small?
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;-)
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I agree. However, we have some statements in the game that contradict each other. The tech database says that the Shivans were likely constructed by another entity, and Bosch said that the Ancients believed that the Shivans were born from the flux of subspace. Which one do you and most of the community accept in this case?
Also, the nebula beyond GD was likely another supernova created by the Shivans. Your wing leader of the Ravens said 'and possibly the remnant of a supernova' then we see them create a supernova at the end of FS2. It must be connected. Why would the Shivans blow up more than one star and why wait until now to do so if they are doing it to return home? They could have done it long ago.
Edited to fix spelling and add a sentence.
i tend to go with the born of subspace line as i belive it was refered to in FS1
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It's hard to come to any relevant conclusions.
Now, the shivies either understand other races or they don't.
From the game, I never got the impression that they understand the Terrans or Vasudans, or care to understand them. If they are knowledgable of how other races think and act, they certanly aren't showing it, or at least don't seem to care.
Weather they want to eradicate us, befiriend us, stop our usage of subspace or just travel "home", they seem to be doing it the hard way.
Therefore, any action that is supposed to send a message or act on human/vasudan psyche seems highly improbable.
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i like the teory that the shivans blew up capella because they like blowing **** up
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i like the teory that the shivans blew up capella because they like blowing **** up
which goes along with the napoleon dynamite theory where they blew it up cos they felt like it, GOD!
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I agree. However, we have some statements in the game that contradict each other. The tech database says that the Shivans were likely constructed by another entity, and Bosch said that the Ancients believed that the Shivans were born from the flux of subspace. Which one do you and most of the community accept in this case?
Like I said, one theory is probably more likely than the other. Both 'canon' theories are probably more valid than any fan-made theory.
Also, the nebula beyond GD was likely another supernova created by the Shivans. Your wing leader of the Ravens said 'and possibly the remnant of a supernova' then we see them create a supernova at the end of FS2. It must be connected. Why would the Shivans blow up more than one star and why wait until now to do so if they are doing it to return home? They could have done it long ago.
I do think it had something to do with Bosch and the Shivan communication nodes seen in "Into the Lion's Den". I usually take this to mean that Bosch gave them some important piece of information that allowed them to achieve their goal which they had up until that point been unable to do. As to why they chose Capella to nova and not Gamma Draconis or even the Binary System is probably significant too, but anyone's guess.
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I agree. However, we have some statements in the game that contradict each other. The tech database says that the Shivans were likely constructed by another entity, and Bosch said that the Ancients believed that the Shivans were born from the flux of subspace. Which one do you and most of the community accept in this case?
ERm...the same Ancients that were convinced the shivans where an response to their sins? Some sort of heavenly fury?
With the Ancients being all doomy, gloomy and religious, and Bosch being very poetic in his monologues...I'd kinda take that with a grain of salt.
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;-)
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Also, the nodes were collapsed in that nebula until the Knossos devices were build to recreate them. So that must mean that the Capella supernova would have also collapsed nodes, making the GTVA's efforts of collapsing nodes pointless.
How do you know that the Knossos device (singular, not plural) in the nebula wasn't built before the supernova occurred?
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Because it's highly unlikely any object can survive in the same system as a supernova.
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;-)
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Because it's highly unlikely any object can survive in the same system as a supernova.
I would again point out that any ship which can survive an antimatter warhead point-blank should not be immediately dismissed as being able to survive a supernova at 2AU.
Hell, we actually saw it happen with the Moloch and Deimos in the end cutscene.
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Because it's highly unlikely any object can survive in the same system as a supernova.
When you're dealing with expanding volume, remember that the energy expended on any given area obeys an inverse-square relationship with the distance from the center. An object located at 10 AU from the original star will receive a hundred times less energy than a similarly-sized object located at 1 AU from it. We have no idea how far out into the system the Knossos was positioned, so for all we know, the supernova could have dealt it the equivalent of a warm spring breeze.
(Also, what NGTM-1R said.)
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Let's just remember that Volition probably did not go through this much thought...
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Because it's highly unlikely any object can survive in the same system as a supernova.
I would again point out that any ship which can survive an antimatter warhead point-blank should not be immediately dismissed as being able to survive a supernova at 2AU.
Hell, we actually saw it happen with the Moloch and Deimos in the end cutscene.
You kidding me?
PLANETS were destroyed. PLANETS.
Also, the Moloch and the Deimos didn't survive. Watch the cutscene again.
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Yeah, it looks like the Deimos and Moloch got taken out by EMP, then shattered by the oncoming wall of plasma.
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You kidding me?
PLANETS were destroyed. PLANETS.
Keep in mind that this is the same cutscene which appears to show a supernova shockwave moving at many times the speed of light. I wouldn't exactly look to it for scientific veracity. :p
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PLANETS were destroyed. PLANETS.
Also, the Moloch and the Deimos didn't survive. Watch the cutscene again.
And a Harbinger will crack a planetary crust too, plus the planets were closer-in. As Mongoose noted, the inverse square law called.
Yeah, it looks like the Deimos and Moloch got taken out by EMP, then shattered by the oncoming wall of plasma.
Yes, because the EMP would be depicted as orange. Or there would be an EMP at all. Or it would cause the ships to rotate and drift like a physical shockwave. Or the EMP destroyed the planets!
There are many ways to interpret that scene but EMP isn't really one of them.
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I did some work with supernova physics a while back and as I recall there's an initial energy release followed by a much more catastrophic one afterwards. I don't remember the mechanisms or the timescales, though.
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IIRC, there's an x-ray pulse, followed by a neutrino wave, followed by stellar matter.
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That sounds about right. I wonder whether the first shockwave was meant to be the EMP or the neutrino pulse (which I believe would be dense enough to do plenty of damage.)
Oh and NGTM-1R there would definitely be an EMP from a supernova. It just probably wouldn't behave in the way that you're thinking of.
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;-)
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That sounds about right. I wonder whether the first shockwave was meant to be the EMP or the neutrino pulse (which I believe would be dense enough to do plenty of damage.)
Oh and NGTM-1R there would definitely be an EMP from a supernova. It just probably wouldn't behave in the way that you're thinking of.
Neutrinos go through practically everything without leaving a trace. They don't interact very well with normal matter, hence "neutrino". They're also nearly massless and thus travel close to the speed of light. The EMP, being mere electromagnet waves (i.e., light) would travel at exactly the speed of light (well, duh) and so would of course arrive before the neutrinos.
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That sounds about right. I wonder whether the first shockwave was meant to be the EMP or the neutrino pulse (which I believe would be dense enough to do plenty of damage.)
Oh and NGTM-1R there would definitely be an EMP from a supernova. It just probably wouldn't behave in the way that you're thinking of.
Neutrinos go through practically everything without leaving a trace. They don't interact very well with normal matter, hence "neutrino". They're also nearly massless and thus travel close to the speed of light. The EMP, being mere electromagnet waves (i.e., light) would travel at exactly the speed of light (well, duh) and so would of course arrive before the neutrinos.
I know very well what neutrinos are, as you should probably be able to tell from the fact that we're having a coherent discussion about core collapse supernovas.
Neutrinos are indeed generally non-interactive. At this density, however, the neutrino pulse is devastating nonetheless because even the small proportion that do interact with matter are enough to wreak havoc. A significant percentage of the mass of the star goes into the neutrino burst, and in fact if I recall correctly, the neutrino wave alone may be enough to cause extinction events in nearby star systems.
The question here is not which pulse would arrive first. It is whether :V: intended that first shockwave to be the EM pulse or the neutrino pulse.
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IIRC, the first shockwave visibly stripped the 'rings' off a planet, so it was something with some kind of mass.
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;-)
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IIRC, the first shockwave visibly stripped the 'rings' off a planet, so it was something with some kind of mass.
The first shockwave blew up the planet.
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IIRC, the first shockwave visibly stripped the 'rings' off a planet, so it was something with some kind of mass.
The first shockwave blew up the planet.
Not at all, they're clearly still intact even after it passes.
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;-)
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By the way, did the Ancients' monologue say that their empire expanded for 1000's for years? I think I recall that.
Or perhaps the Shivans destroyed that star and then spread and destroyed that species (went all the way), but in our case, maybe somehow Bosch convinced the Shivans not to erradicate the T/V and only went as far as destroying a star instead. Maybe without Bosch, the Shivans would have taken it a step furthur and invaded the rest of the GTVA systems after destroying the star and competely wipe out the T/V like that unknown race before the Ancients.
The Ancients were expanding for thousands of years before the discovery of subspace. It's like the thousands of years that it took for humanity to emerge from a hunter-gathering tribes to nations, and in the FS universe, colonization in the solar system. However, it was implied that the Ancients had a clear technological superiority over the other species they found and could expand much more rapidly. They also probably had more time before they attracted the Shivans. The Terran-Vasudan War, while costing many lives, ironically saved the two species from extinction by accelerating their technological development and
I'm sure Bosch had a significant impact. He is probably the reason why the Shivans withdrew. I'm sure he had something important enough that it would warrant the Shivans communicating all the way across the universe. (I'm sure there's reason why the Shivans needed Comm Nodes instead just using their onboard communications).
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Yes, because the EMP would be depicted as orange. Or there would be an EMP at all. Or it would cause the ships to rotate and drift like a physical shockwave. Or the EMP destroyed the planets!
There are many ways to interpret that scene but EMP isn't really one of them.
Regardless how you interpret them, both ships were destroyed by the secondary blast.
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Regardless how you interpret them, both ships were destroyed by the secondary blast.
Yes, but we don't know what the secondary blast is or if it is a natural supernova event, or something the Shivans did by mucking about with subspace and the star.
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Hehe..now you're reaching.
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Hehe..now you're reaching.
Considering we're describing something that already blows holes in our understanding of physics, I don't think there is such a thing as reaching for the second blast. :P
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Subluminal lasers!
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Hehe..now you're reaching.
Considering we're describing something that already blows holes in our understanding of physics, I don't think there is such a thing as reaching for the second blast. :P
But there is.
See, there's nothing in FS2 indicating that the explosion itself was abnormal. It was triggered by the shivies haheadof time, but..a supernova is a frigging super-huge nuclear explosion when it comes down to it. There not much you can do different about it.
Not to mention that both ships seems far enough from the sun (near a node no less...nodes have never been that close to the sun)
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See, there's nothing in FS2 indicating that the explosion itself was abnormal.
Except the apparent spectral type and mass of the star.
Or, y'know, the mere fact it's an induced supernova.
Or the mucking about with subspace the Shivans were doing, if they were in fact mucking about with subspace.
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Yeah but the two blasts do at least appear fairly in line with supernova physics. From what I recall.
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That sounds about right. I wonder whether the first shockwave was meant to be the EMP or the neutrino pulse (which I believe would be dense enough to do plenty of damage.)
Oh and NGTM-1R there would definitely be an EMP from a supernova. It just probably wouldn't behave in the way that you're thinking of.
Neutrinos go through practically everything without leaving a trace. They don't interact very well with normal matter, hence "neutrino". They're also nearly massless and thus travel close to the speed of light. The EMP, being mere electromagnet waves (i.e., light) would travel at exactly the speed of light (well, duh) and so would of course arrive before the neutrinos.
I know very well what neutrinos are, as you should probably be able to tell from the fact that we're having a coherent discussion about core collapse supernovas.
Neutrinos are indeed generally non-interactive. At this density, however, the neutrino pulse is devastating nonetheless because even the small proportion that do interact with matter are enough to wreak havoc. A significant percentage of the mass of the star goes into the neutrino burst, and in fact if I recall correctly, the neutrino wave alone may be enough to cause extinction events in nearby star systems.
The question here is not which pulse would arrive first. It is whether :V: intended that first shockwave to be the EM pulse or the neutrino pulse.
Alright, I guess I need to brush up a little.
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Hardly, you were right on pretty every count. It's kind of shocking that there are so many neutrinos that they can actually do damage.
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What about (going back to topic):
-Shivans get invaded by a species they were to have destroyed some time ago
-GTVA destroy lots of Shivan stuff on Shivan territory, and then send a guy who somehow submits some of the Shivans into cooperation
-GTVA get the hell out, kill an SJ while doing it, performing the perfect hit and run attack.
-*ASSUMING* there is some sort of high command, and *ASSUMING* Shivans are organized into legions
-Shivan High Command is pi$$ed at the legion that was involved and failed to defend against an attack
-Shivan HC orders a counterattack, and while it is stalled due to lack of resources (due to the fact we destroyed at least 1 mining operation), Shivan HC gets even more pi$$ed
-The attacking legion is considered a waste and is ordered to scuttle
-Attacking legion blows up Capella to scuttle itself, some Jugs prefer to warp out moments before the supernova
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If you want to retroactively destroy all narrative tension and sense of danger in the FreeSpace series, sure.
You could pull it off, but it'd provoke a lot of disgust. It's the kind of behavior one would expect from a GI Joe cartoon.
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I always considered the destruction of Capella as something the Shivans just did, weather be to harvest resources, as an environment to survive in (it could be they like it in there) or to scare off lesser species.
Also I don't think the Shivans want to wipe us out, atleast not anymore, perhaps killing the Lusifer and forging an allience with our bitter enemies (the Vasudans) intregued them? Or perhaps they only hate the vasudans due to being related to the Ancients (its hinted in the techs). That would explain why they were happy to take Bosh.
In the end we dont know, but its left us with lots of possibilities for storylines ;7
Yeah, it looks like the Deimos and Moloch got taken out by EMP, then shattered by the oncoming wall of plasma.
Yes, because the EMP would be depicted as orange. Or there would be an EMP at all. Or it would cause the ships to rotate and drift like a physical shockwave. Or the EMP destroyed the planets!
There are many ways to interpret that scene but EMP isn't really one of them.
It definently wasnt an EMP, the orange wave was the sun's corona being blasted into space, incinerating anything in its path (hence the deimos and moloch being smashed up and floating wrecks) then the sun collapsed and sent a huge shockwave that just wiped out anything in the system.
Since people cant seem to agree what happens in the vid heres the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiWAgQeAVY
To me it looks like they've simply used subspace to cause a star to collapse, which is quite feasable.
And the red/orange wave IS the star's coraona being blasted out by the core collapsing, then the shockwave follows and finishes the job.
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I got a 'new one'(tm) for ya. (I hope)
The people at V are Shivans, letting us grow in tech and knowledge by making FS1 and 2. And now that we beat them in game in both accounts (more or less) they are secretly building up a more massive army. So when they eventually build FS3 and release it without warning we wont know what hit us. Those who do find out about FS3 will buy it but the numbers will be few due to Interplays ****ty advertizing again and Shivans will overun us and rule the galixy! [spolier]And this time they make it to Sol which we will see in reality, out of game.[/spoiler]
So...the fate of the galixy is in your hands! You are Alpha 1! And we (Alpha 1's) must wait for it....
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Only you can save mankind (If not you, who else?) ......
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Maybe we need to look at a bigger picture. To form a concise theory of the Shivans, we must first form a concise theory of the GTVA. In particular, I find the usage of the term "Lost Generation" interesting. In world history, the Lost Generation was the group that came of age between WWI and the Great Depression. Also curious is the usage of the term "The Great War," as WWI was often known by that name. It seems like [V] may have based the FS franchise off of WWI and WWII. Shall I invoke Godwin's Law?
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
Can I take you up on that? :D
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
K, maybe not the dogfights themselves. But still, the whole "carriers throwing fighters at each other" thing and the fact that the fighter to fighter combat is really close range and gun-heavy is what I was getting at. :)
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
K, maybe not the dogfights themselves. But still, the whole "carriers throwing fighters at each other" thing and the fact that the fighter to fighter combat is really close range and gun-heavy is what I was getting at. :)
Well, I was talking about storyline, not gameplay/strategy. :confused:
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No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
In the mods that feature ships reaching 200 m/s, high speed passes are a good tactic, especially against ships that don't reach 150 m/s.
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;-)
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We don't use bosch in dutch any more though, its just 'bos' these days. Bosch is a really really old spelling.
edit: I just opened my dishwasher and noticed it is from the Bosch brand :lol:
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I got a 'new one'(tm) for ya. (I hope)
The people at V are Shivans, letting us grow in tech and knowledge by making FS1 and 2. And now that we beat them in game in both accounts (more or less) they are secretly building up a more massive army. So when they eventually build FS3 and release it without warning we wont know what hit us. Those who do find out about FS3 will buy it but the numbers will be few due to Interplays ****ty advertizing again and Shivans will overun us and rule the galixy! [spolier]And this time they make it to Sol which we will see in reality, out of game.[/spoiler]
So...the fate of the galixy is in your hands! You are Alpha 1! And we (Alpha 1's) must wait for it....
and the release date is going to be 2335 eh ? :)
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;-)
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No, it was released in 2000 in another universe and never will be in this one, and if it is released in this universe by some ironic chance, people will whine and say it wasn't as good as they thought it would be. I can see that happening, especially if it isn't Volition-made.
If it ain't [V], it ain't FS3.
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;-)
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No, it was released in 2000 in another universe and never will be in this one, and if it is released in this universe by some ironic chance, people will whine and say it wasn't as good as they thought it would be. I can see that happening, especially if it isn't Volition-made.
So did any copies survive alternate-Earth's destruction? :p
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;-)
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I witnessed a subspace breach in my back yard the other day, and a copy of FS3 emerged, landing on my porch. The cover says something about "discover humanity's dark connection to the Shivans", but the DRM is air-tight.
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Well in one universe, the Earth has FS3 and almost all else is the same as now and the Earth is still here. In another, it was destroyed before FS ever existed. Depends on what universe, if the multiverse does in fact exist with unlimited possibilities. Heck, from that point of view, BWO and FS3 are already released and retail INF Ch2 is out now too, maybe even FS4 and FS5. Sounds nice, huh?
and there is no war because everyones playing fs3. International disputes are settled over squad war
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I think it's already been established that the FS games are meant to be WWII dogfights in space.
No they're not. They're WWI-style turning fights. I dare you to try to use WWII-type speed-based tactics in FS and see how well it works.
...but in the cutscenes ships can be extremely fast. In the endgame of Descent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXeI4EJiZh4), you can see that a Hercules comes across half of the "head" (or frontal segment) of the Lucifer in 1 second (as seen in 0:17 to 0:18), so it got as fast as 420 m/s, which is actually 1,500 kilometers per hour. Compare that to the P-51 Mustang, which is only as I recall, around 600 kilometers per hour. Volition just made FS more fun and enjoyable to play by making the battles less logical, but more dramatic through flying in a WWI-velocity fighter.
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I've been citing the speed issues for quite a while.
Two words: Gameplay mechanic.
A FS ship concievably would be fueld by a high-density nuclear fuel source with a high mass-energy conversion ratio, or some other brand of super propulsion. Fusion-power is noted canonically. Thus, there really isn't a speed cap of sorts which you should strictly follow in creating fiction alone (though that does need to mesh with gameplay where applicable), but the limits on structures and human factors should be considered when imagining super high-velocity combat, despite any artificial gravity/inertial damping/acceleration modifiers which are supposed to exist in the FS universe. Just because you can run the engine for long periods and achive extreme speeds without the risk of running out of fuel doesn't mean you would - you still need to efficiently engage targets. Whirring past at thousands of (relative) m/s may not be all that effective as you need to turn back around to engage the target once more. The faster you're going, the longer that's going to take and the forces on your ships' systems will also increase dramatically. Also, you don't want to burn up that engine of yours, either...
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Actually I was thinking there had all the while been an undiscovered jump node in capella. Yes, thats right, IN the star itself. Smack in the center (ok, maybe a little to the left or right) of it. The reason we couldn't find it is because it is in the star and the star kinda masks everything else. It is a weak unstable node. Blowing up the star is the only way to get close enough to initiate jump.
It was obvious the shivians were in a hurry, hence the lack of advanced tactics and not taking over planets, but individual nodes. If they wanted to pwn us over they would have used the saths to take us down, world by world. Very cylon like. But domination, it appears, is not the goal here. They want something we have, and we are just in the way. Glassing of vasuda. Heading towards SoL. Why not kill everything along the way?
Vasuda apparently has lots of jump nodes, and maybe since we kept harassing them, killing the planet was like nuking the base. Heading to SoL, maybe there was something in SoL. Or maybe they thought since we had so much forces there, it must be what they are looking for when in reality it is just our home. The shivians seem very mobile, the concept of 'home' may be unknown to them. In fact I don't know if they are even thinking beings and not like the nomads of Freelancer.
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SoL is Shadows of Lylat.
I think you're trying to say 'Sol', Earth's sun.
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For sure we know that the enitre Sathanas fleet was a minor part of the enitre Shivan race.
- in FS wiki the Sathani could be called "armed transports", since they could be carrying Shivan personnel on their journey to their own universe from Capella
- The Sathani were simply nomads, wandering from home (how big IS "home"?)
Hell, maybe the Shivans had THOUSANDS of Sathani ;7
Sorry...erm...millions! :shaking:
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No one expects the Grammar Inquisition!
Since the name "Sathanas" is derived from Greek, the proper pluralization would be "Sathanes".
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No one expects the Grammar Inquisition!
Since the name "Sathanas" is derived from Greek, the proper pluralization would be "Sathanes".
The canonical pluralization is Sathanas juggernaughts, which neatly sidesteps the whole issue. :nervous:
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(http://omglol.kerrolisaa.com/1/4668.gif)
Not this **** again... Didn't Mobius fight about the plural form of Sathanas enough?
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The canonical pluralization is Sathanas juggernaughts, which neatly sidesteps the whole issue. :nervous:
"Juggernauts", sir.
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The canonical pluralization is Sathanas juggernaughts, which neatly sidesteps the whole issue. :nervous:
"Juggernauts", sir.
i am owned
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Well when fighting Bosch and hearing that music in the C track (the music played in the mission beyond Knossos 2 and the battle against the Repulse) it felt German to me. Maybe the NTF are like Nazis? Also, maybe Bosch is a German or of German descent? The music sounds German to me for some reason. All this gives me this war feeling involving Germans. I can look up the name 'Bosch' to see if it is of German descent...
It didn't sound Nazi-ish to me, but Bosch himself looks like he's wearing a Nazi uniform. The entire thing about NTF fanatics going suicidally crazy makes them similar to the S.S., Bosch establishes the Fourth Reich :lol:
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:wtf:
Oh, right. High Max. :wtf: comes with the territory.
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It didn't sound Nazi-ish to me, but Bosch himself looks like he's wearing a Nazi uniform.
Bosch's uniform is about as Nazi as the State of Israel. It owes far more to WW2 era USN khakis than it does to anything else.
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Gotta love the bloused combat boots on a space ship, though...
:p
Heck, I'd do it, too. :lol:
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Hey,I've come with a new theory and am making a big campaign on it.
The Shivans are great destroyers.They were created by an ancient species to annhilate every other species in the universe,
but something went Wrong and the shivans started destroying everything in the whole universe including their creators themselves.
Also,the shivans now only have the sole mission to destroy every single lifeform in the whole universe.
The shivans are sensitive to subspace fluctuations and detect other species by their subspace travels.They have more knowledge of subspace than any other species in the entire Galaxy.
As to why the shivans destroyed the Capella sun Here's My Theory:
When the capella sun went supernova Such a tremendous amount of energy was released in space that the energy passed the 3 dimentions and went into subspace that energy was increased exponentially there. The subspace could not handle that much energy and ahe energy was spent by formation of new temporary phantom nodes radically from the sun which could transport ships across entire GALAXIES.The Fleet of Sathanas were used as transports to transport shivans from this galaxy to others where they could develop and spread destruction.But,only a few Sathanas were to be lucky enough that a phantom node could be formed in front of them.The rest were destroyed.
The others would carry on to reproduce and replicate their armada in time would destroy another sun to spread their empire to the entire universe.
Also,
The shivans didn't use the Draconis sun as it didnt have the necessary Mass to go supernova....
Any Critiques/suggetions or improvements?
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Hey,I've come with a new theory and am making a big campaign on it.
The Shivans are great destroyers.They were created by an ancient species to annhilate every other species in the universe,
but something went Wrong and the shivans started destroying everything in the whole universe including their creators themselves.
Also,the shivans now only have the sole mission to destroy every single lifeform in the whole universe.
The shivans are sensitive to subspace fluctuations and detect other species by their subspace travels.They have more knowledge of subspace than any other species in the entire Galaxy.
As to why the shivans destroyed the Capella sun Here's My Theory:
When the capella sun went supernova Such a tremendous amount of energy was released in space that the energy passed the 3 dimentions and went into subspace that energy was increased exponentially there. The subspace could not handle that much energy and ahe energy was spent by formation of new temporary phantom nodes radically from the sun which could transport ships across entire GALAXIES.The Fleet of Sathanas were used as transports to transport shivans from this galaxy to others where they could develop and spread destruction.But,only a few Sathanas were to be lucky enough that a phantom node could be formed in front of them.The rest were destroyed.
The others would carry on to reproduce and replicate their armada in time would destroy another sun to spread their empire to the entire universe.
Also,
The shivans didn't use the Draconis sun as it didnt have the necessary Mass to go supernova....
Any Critiques/suggetions or improvements?
why didnt the shivans wipe out or attempt to wipe out the gtva in FS2 in that case, they certainly had the potential with minimal notable casultys to themselves
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headdie,do you not remember that bastion and neidrid collapsed both the nodes to capella!(I am assuming neidrid finished the job)
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That was only after the GTVA realized that the Shivans had 80 Juggernaughts on their way. If the Shivans had wanted to, they could have sortied a few of them to break through the blockades and annihilate the forces sent to kill the nodes.
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headdie,do you not remember that bastion and neidrid collapsed both the nodes to capella!(I am assuming neidrid finished the job)
yes but the shivans had 80+ sath +untold numbers of destroyers, corvettes, cruisers, fighters and bombers in system and not one made a dash to gtva space, they only comitted fighters and bombers to kill the bastion and only had a token force of a couple of cruisers at the other node who are just harassing fleeing ships, the only time you see anything bigger than a corvette in capella is in in Dunkerque (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Dunkerque) where the shivans sorty a destroyer during an assault on a fearsly defended instalation and in Their Finest Hour (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Their_Finest_Hour) which is a deliberate attempt to draw heavy shivan firepower away from the bastion. there is no indication what so ever that the shivans intend to gomit xenocide again.
also it is piss poor tackicks to start an offensive in new territory when the enemy is playing in your back garden
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All right I've got explanations for you both-
Even the best of us make mistakes Don't They.The shivans in their Arrogance decidedly chose to wipe one system clean before proceeding to other never guessing the tactics of the GTVA HIGH COMMAND.
And where do you think in the original story is said that no destroyer had entered Vega?
It could be that before the blue lions have been sortied another invasion force may have entered the node!
The Shivans needed all their Saths to make the Capella sun unstable because wise as they are they certainly don't know everything. ;7
Also
The shivans are such a large species That they don't see GTVA as a threat anymore!
EDIT:Plz give feedback.Anyone?
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One thing I thought of is that they were using the Capella collapse to open a long range node to allow their "creators" into Terran Vasudan Space. V always stated that the "Shivans are only a symptom of a much larger problem". They've also said that the shivans appear to be bio-mechanical constructs, and possibly the Project Etak is a way to command the shivans.
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I have a theory of my own, though it is conjecture. One of the things I had noticed is that the nebula is the remains of a star gone supernova. Furthermore, it is connected by a trio of knossos portals, one of which is to and from the Binary System, while the other is to Gamma Draconis. I feel that it is likely that the Nebula was the result of meddling from Sathanas. This means that collapsed stars provides some sort of resource or purpose to the Shivan agenda. Considering the high number of Knossos portals nearby the Nebula, it is likely that area had a thriving civilization, not unlike Capella. There isn't enough data to figure out the Shivan motives, unfortunately, all we have is some patterns that don't have enough specific details...still, I think there is one possible reason for why Shivans blow up stars that isn't directly related to genocide.
There is a game called Star Control II, in which an alien species called the Myconid were once biological terraformers. They loyally did their work long after their masters disappeared, but they eventually came to realize how much they enjoyed it. They were creating environments very enjoyable to them, and it wasn't unlike religion to them. Unfortunately, their way of terraforming wasn't healthy to other species: They send giant 'spores' across the galaxy, which impact certain life-bearing planets. Upon impact, the spores would burrow into the crust of the planet and begin to spawn and grow. This drastically changes the planet, increasing the heat and creating a volcanic, sulphuric world. Terraformers gone wrong, in short. Perhaps the Shivans are the same?
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To be fair, the Shivans didn't know we had the ability/knowledge to collapse nodes. So why would they be in any hurry?
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I wonder, if by some massive retcon/plot twist, the current "controllers" of the Shivans are actually the Ancients. As the Ancients were shattered, maybe a faction came up with something like ETAK or a similar device, and gained control of or at least allied with some of the Shivans. Since they're the type to go around dominating/destroying other species, their hubris might have compelled them to use the Shivans to continue this goal instead of learning from their mistake. The several millennia it took for the Shivans to show up in front of the PVE and GTA might have been the time it took for them to rebuild and relearn how all of their own stuff works.
This theory is probably horribly inconsistent with canon, which I'm not exactly an expert of. Still, I think any valid Shivan theories that might coincide with what Volition had in mind must be able to set the basis for an interesting FS3. Whether or not my fun attempt works or not is probably less an issue.
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To be fair, the Shivans didn't know we had the ability/knowledge to collapse nodes. So why would they be in any hurry?
No one knows what they do or do not know.
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Something else just caught my eye: namely, that "Shivans are born from the flux of subspace", or something to that effect.
It doesn't make much sense for subspace to be able to put together living entities and gigantic warships, so I don't think this quote can be taken very literally. What could make sense is the idea that the first Shivans arrived through a rare type of subspace phenomenon, such as one that might result from a supernova. Since it wouldn't appear to be a type of subspace travel the Ancients were familiar with, they might have assumed that it was an entirely different mechanism at work, creating the misconception that Shivans were made from/in subspace.
I think it might give more credibility to the theory that Shivans might be able to move between galaxies, or be able to bridge isolated networks of subspace tunnels with new, supernova induced nodes.
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No one knows what they do or do not know.
How CAN they know?
So shivan ship that followed the Lucifer survived to tell the tale. The Lucifer exploded and THEN the node collapsed, so the Luci itself couldn't have told them. And in FS2, the shivans never witness that we can destroy nodes before we deploy the Bastion.
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-They have a weird subspace link that allowed to transmit this intel to the hulk of the fleet?
-The Knossos was open during the great war?
-A few remnants of the first Shivan incursion were still roaming in GTVA systems or hiding in uncharted nodes and returned to tell their friends about the collapsed node and bla bla.
You see... I can come up with acceptable theories about how can the Shivans know about us being able to collapse nodes, and those theories will be as valid as yours trying to prove the exact opposite.
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-They have a weird subspace link that allowed to transmit this intel to the hulk of the fleet?
-The Knossos was open during the great war?
-A few remnants of the first Shivan incursion were still roaming in GTVA systems or hiding in uncharted nodes and returned to tell their friends about the collapsed node and bla bla.
You see... I can come up with acceptable theories about how can the Shivans know about us being able to collapse nodes, and those theories will be as valid as yours trying to prove the exact opposite.
the lucifer was blown up in subspace,which was at the fore-front of the attack, there were no other shivan ships in the node at the time, so all they know is the lucifer blew up, and the node collapsed. Therefore, there is no link direct link to, "the lucifer blew up and the subspace node collapsed, the puny humans definitly can do it too! the shivans have no reason to assume the GTVA has the capability do something, especially with their limited resources, even after the first epic fail of the meson bomb. its probably safe to assume that the shivans were not all knowing, as it took them time to track down the locations of Sol and Vasuda Prime. It can alsobe be assume from the previous point, that since the shivans themselves had multiple juggernaugts, that the GTVA could have had multiple Colossus-class ships seeing as they punced on collie, hard. even super-avanced cybernetic xenocidal aliens can be suceptible to the fog of war, until you can prove to us otherwise. And how does an open knossoss portal in the great war mean the shivans know that the GTVA can collpase a jump node?
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even after the first epic fail of the meson bomb.
Yet they could try it again, from this you can assume Terrans know that given an enough explotion you get a collapsed node.
Or asume Terrans are stupid and like blowing up stuff in front of subspace nodes for some bizarre party-thing they've got.
its probably safe to assume that the shivans were not all knowing, as it took them time to track down the locations of Sol and Vasuda Prime.
that, or they were just destroying all our outposts before setting course to our homeworlds.
And how does an open Knossos portal in the great war mean the shivans know that the GTVA can collpase a jump node?
getting transmitions through subspace nodes is possible to Terrans so I can assume that Shivans do this as well.
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getting transmitions through subspace nodes is possible to Terrans so I can assume that Shivans do this as well.
and that is assuming that lucy and friends even knew about the knossoss
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Well they had to come from somewhere right?... and given that the bulk of the Shivan armada was on the other side of the Knossos...
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circumstantial at best. i think you're also giving the evil xenocidal aliens too much credit. thats along the lines of saying "this store was robbed and there's a gun store down the block, so the gun must have come from there" i'm pretty sure the GTVA would have made a note of a subspace corridor in ross 128 going between gamma drax. they probably woulda also noticed a similar phenomena in g-drax when it was discovered. but they didnt notice the knossoss, possibly do to its inactivity. give the puny little humans some credit, will a?