Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nemesis6 on June 24, 2010, 09:56:21 am
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Resident youtube skeptic DonExodus has done a two-part analysis of this nonsense, Vaccines and Autism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AJUWFXrBI - Vaccines and Autism Pt. 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9P80I96X4c - Vaccines and Autism Pt. 2
It's really sad to think about how there are actually people who buy into this phony, criminal pseudo-science of the fraud Andrew Wakefield, and consequently start putting their autistic kids through all these miracle cures for Autism, like eating certain vegetables and fruits.
Just to put this into perspective: http://books.google.com/books?id=a9xEl_w-YH4C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115=bl&ots=vcJiY3Dxk_&sig=ExVEWl98g97PwLLd5eXIOOiJtII&hl=en&ei=2HEjTMu8EY7aOPrigPYE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA
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Didn't the journal that originally published the only study that started this whole thing, officially retract it and apologize for not having reviewed it stringently enough? I seem to remember one or two of the researchers officially agreeing with the decision, too.
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Yep. There were 13 authors. Three, including Andrew Wakefield, did not sign the retraction. Now this is a bit muddy, because some articles quote other numbers, like 9 of 12, or 10 of 12. Take that into consideration when you read this small article here: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/02/the-lancet-retracts-paper-linking-mmr-vaccines-and-autism.ars
Heck, the authors even wanted to have their names removed before it was retracted! Understandable considering the scale of the fraud and criminal conduct.
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and consequently start putting their autistic kids through all these miracle cures for Autism, like eating certain vegetables and fruits.
Sigh...
Why would you want to 'cure' a very usefull personality trait?
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'Vaccination = autism' is bs...
But not sure if vaccinations themselves are all they're cracked up to be. I find I get sick more often when I have a vaccination against the flu than when I just let my body take care of itself.
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wait a moment
The 'scientific report' claims that 2/3 of the people who got the vaccin get autism
Everyone in Holland gets that vaccin.
We do not have 4 million autists.
There's the proof.
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everyone with an ounce of common sense has known that the research was bs even the autism community hit out at it, these things are best left buried, the more attention it gets the more idiots get exposed to it who might believe it
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wait a moment
The 'scientific report' claims that 2/3 of the people who got the vaccin get autism
Everyone in Holland gets that vaccin.
We do not have 4 million autists.
There's the proof.
From another angle, we took out the things they complained about in the vaccines about 20 years ago here in Denmark, and we have not seen a decline in autism rates. But it's ok, because the pseudo-science quacks can just move the goal post like Andrew Wakefield did in his study. Doesn't cause a bowel disease? We'll just say it causes autism instead? It doesn't cause autism, well, ehhh... YOU'RE A SHILL FOR BIG PHARMA!
That's why I seldom argue with proponents of pseudo-science - You cannot argue with conspiracy theorists.
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and consequently start putting their autistic kids through all these miracle cures for Autism, like eating certain vegetables and fruits.
Sigh...
Why would you want to 'cure' a very usefull personality trait?
since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
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Higher functioning autistic people often make excellent engineers.
EDIT: Just recently discovered this (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/23/whooping-cough-now-an-epidemic-in-california/)
According to a statement just released by the California Department of Public Health, pertussis — whooping cough — is now officially an epidemic in California.
That’s right: an almost completely preventable disease is coming back with a roar in California. There have been well over 900 cases of pertussis in that state this year, over four times as many as this time last year (and 600 more suspected cases are being investigated). If this keeps up, California may see more cases in 2010 than it has in 50 years.
If that doesn’t anger and sicken you enough, then this most assuredly will: there have been five deaths this year from pertussis as well, all babies under three months of age.
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
autism has never played nice with the human desire to declare things into nice neat catagorys
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
autism has never played nice with the human desire to declare things into nice neat catagorys
Except when it's the autistic's desire to categorize things. :P
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Except when it's the autistic's desire to categorize things. :P
I always think it's kind of funny how much some people seem to love their autism diagnosis XD
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guys just let them believe what they want the gullibility gene is only going to spread if you force he children to survive.
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I don't care that much about them causing problems for their own kids by doing this. But because of herd immunity this isn't an issue that only affects their kids. It affects us all.
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About the pertussis issue, my brother managed to catch it as a teen despite being on the proper DPT vaccine schedule. I'm sure the majority of those cases in California are caused by asshole parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, but it isn't the only way that it happens.
(Unfortunately, my attempts at "shoop da whoop" jokes when he had it went completely over his head. :p)
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Except when it's the autistic's desire to categorize things. :P
I always think it's kind of funny how much some people seem to love their autism diagnosis XD
Only when they're slightly autistic, like when they've got chronic asshole syndrome.
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About the pertussis issue, my brother managed to catch it as a teen despite being on the proper DPT vaccine schedule. I'm sure the majority of those cases in California are caused by asshole parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, but it isn't the only way that it happens.
Actually, from what I've read, the carriers are most likely to be adults. The vaccine doesn't provide lifelong protection, and almost no adults bother to keep their vaccinations up-to-date. Apparently one of the most effective thing parents can do to protect their kids from pertussis is to vaccinate themselves so they don't pass it to their children.
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Yeah, I know that combined booster has a limited lifetime of effectiveness. My brother's pediatrician advised that the rest of us should get a new shot at the time he had it, but I don't think we ever got around to it.
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... even I'M smart enough to know autism is something you're born with, and I HAVE it...
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Vaccination is one of those scientific topics that's just like evolution: doesn't matter how many facts you smack the fanatics in the face with, there will still be idiots that insist it's wrong for completely unscientific reasons.
And to the poster that thinks they get sick more often after getting the flu vaccine: vaccination, by definition, causes your immune system to go into an active state which can cause you to manifest symptoms even in the absence of illness. Believe it or not, the uncomfortable symptoms you experience during illness are usually the result of your body's attempt to fight the illness rather than the illness itself. By way of example, fever, runny nose, cough, and excess mucus production are all a result of the body's attempt to fight a cold rather than the cold virus itself.
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... even I'M smart enough to know autism is something you're born with, and I HAVE it...
There's been quite a few studies recently that indicate a very strong genetic factor.
The real problem with it is there's sort of a lag effect, symptoms don't show until the middle of the vaccination cycle. At least with higher functioning it is that way.
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
So does shyness. Personally I do not experience an 'hampering with my ability to interact with others'. It appears I have grown past it or something.
Bassicly, the reason why I called it a personality trait is because a 'disorder' (Which it 'oficially' is) just sounds way too negative, especially as it has some great positive sides. When it is called a 'disorder', it sounds like something is broken. There is nothing broken, it is just wired differently.
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From a 'normal' perspective, Autism, especially on the more hefty side of the diagnoses could most definitely be perceived as broken.
Autism is badly defined and some of the mild aspects of it could be expressed as a slight personality disposition rather than a disorder.
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My viewpoints are more or less defined by the 'disorder' I got, PDD-NOS (which translates as: You have some sort of disorder we do not have a specific definition for). You are right, there are much heavier cases. I do not mean something like asperger, but like those people which are completely locked up in themselves and make the same movement all day long.
Then there is also the kid from The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time... I think his case counts as a disorder, but he is simply too awesome to be put in the same group as the mass killing psycho's.
If you have not read that book, go read it now. It's awesome.
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
So does shyness. Personally I do not experience an 'hampering with my ability to interact with others'. It appears I have grown past it or something.
Bassicly, the reason why I called it a personality trait is because a 'disorder' (Which it 'oficially' is) just sounds way too negative, especially as it has some great positive sides. When it is called a 'disorder', it sounds like something is broken. There is nothing broken, it is just wired differently.
So, to use fiction as an example, Rainman wasn't disordered, he was just quirky?
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since when is autism A) useful or B) a personality trait?
Autism-spectrum disorder people typically excel in certain areas, such as math. There is also a growing belief it's simply a different personality type...though I think it's unlikely it'll be reclassified from a disorder since it does hamper one's ability to interact with others.
So does shyness. Personally I do not experience an 'hampering with my ability to interact with others'. It appears I have grown past it or something.
Bassicly, the reason why I called it a personality trait is because a 'disorder' (Which it 'oficially' is) just sounds way too negative, especially as it has some great positive sides. When it is called a 'disorder', it sounds like something is broken. There is nothing broken, it is just wired differently.
So, to use fiction as an example, Rainman wasn't disordered, he was just quirky?
My viewpoints are more or less defined by the 'disorder' I got, PDD-NOS (which translates as: You have some sort of disorder we do not have a specific definition for). You are right, there are much heavier cases. I do not mean something like asperger, but like those people which are completely locked up in themselves and make the same movement all day long.
Then there is also the kid from The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time... I think his case counts as a disorder, but he is simply too awesome to be put in the same group as the mass killing psycho's.
If you have not read that book, go read it now. It's awesome.
But anyway, thanks for mentioning Rainman. Someone mentioned it to me before, and I completely forgot about it untill you brought it up. It's really a film I got to watch.
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NOS disorders are bull**** too. basically a way to diagnose people with a disorder they dont have any symptoms of.
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By way of example, fever, runny nose, cough, and excess mucus production are all a result of the body's attempt to fight a cold rather than the cold virus itself.
Hang on a sec. While I agree with the others it was my understanding that many viruses and bacteria deliberately stimulate the cough and sneeze reflex in order to spread themselves.
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You say "stimulate" like it's a conscience act.
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You say "stimulate deliberately" like it's a conscious act.
Fixed! Hope ya don' mind.
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By way of example, fever, runny nose, cough, and excess mucus production are all a result of the body's attempt to fight a cold rather than the cold virus itself.
Hang on a sec. While I agree with the others it was my understanding that many viruses and bacteria deliberately stimulate the cough and sneeze reflex in order to spread themselves.
It's a synergistic effect. Coughing and sneezing is the way the immune systems clears foreign bodies trapped in mucus (the excess production of which it also stimulates in order to trap said foreign bodies). Some viruses and bacteria take advantage of this to further their spread. But the cough and sneeze is still a symptom of infection, not directly caused by it - a virus or bacterium that stimulates those sorts of responses would do so by triggering an immune response, not the neurological compulsion to cough or sneeze.
And Liberator, the act is evolutionary (those who have a shaky understanding of the natural selection mechanism tend to mix this up with conscious desire) - those bacteria and viruses that had this property are the ones more likely to propagate, and become the dominant strains, the more virulent of which eventually become dominant themselves until the shaky point between virulence and optimal host condition reach a sort of equilibrium. The best pathogen is the one that stimulates its host to pass it along, but doesn't actually harm the host significantly. This is why both rhinoviruses (the common cold) and various mild forms of influenza are so prevalent.
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and mega doom viruses like Ebola are rare.
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You say "stimulate" like it's a conscience act.
Viruses that develop this ability survive and propagate.
Viruses that don't are outperformed and go extinct.
Welcome to evolution - the blind mechanisms of inheritance produce shockingly complex behavior and systems.
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It's a synergistic effect. Coughing and sneezing is the way the immune systems clears foreign bodies trapped in mucus (the excess production of which it also stimulates in order to trap said foreign bodies). Some viruses and bacteria take advantage of this to further their spread. But the cough and sneeze is still a symptom of infection, not directly caused by it - a virus or bacterium that stimulates those sorts of responses would do so by triggering an immune response, not the neurological compulsion to cough or sneeze.
Fair enough. That makes sense.
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You say "stimulate" like it's a conscience act.
Viruses that develop this ability survive and propagate.
Viruses that don't are outperformed and go extinct.
Welcome to evolution - the blind mechanisms of inheritance produce shockingly complex behavior and systems.
Wasn't what I meant. I meant that the way he said that made it sound the the virus made a conscious decision intellectually to stimulate the sneeze/cough reflex. You know? Like it's sentient or something.
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That's cause I know that MP-Ryan isn't a retard and would understand exactly what I meant without me needing to use a ridiculously complicated but linguistically correct sentence.
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and mega doom viruses like Ebola are rare.
Indeed. Ebola infects itself out of existence with every outbreak. It's too virulent for its own good.
[Tangent] The most successful human viruses belong to the herpes and human papilloma families - they are virtually never cleared by the immune system, have long periods of dormancy, and spread rapidly during flare-ups before returning to dormancy while infecting multiple new hosts in the process. [/tangent]
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In fact the most successful human-hosted microorganisms are completely benign.
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... even I'M smart enough to know autism is something you're born with, and I HAVE it...
You're wrong. People with autism made a choice to be that way.
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Like gays and blacks! :p
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Women too!
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http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/whooping-cough-is-declared-an-epidemic-in-california-1828859/
As it is related to the subject, here are the consequences.
And yes, ignore the comments below blaming everything on illegal immigrants.
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Is "epidemic" based on relative percentages or something? Because last I checked, 910 ppl is not a significant portion of a population.
Call me when we get another Spanish Influenza-type, and I'll start panicking.
Seriously, what was it? Bird flu, SARS, swine flu, now this? I'd be surprised if even 1% of the population of CA felt symptoms from any of those combined.
People just need to find an excuse to flip their lids. Saw a commercial the other day that said pretty much: "Don't hug your baby, you could infect them with whooping cough and they could die!!!"
EDIT: fixed statistic. Baseless assumption stays though!
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Seriously, what was it? Bird flu, SARS, swine flu, now this? I'd be surprised if even 1% of the population of CA felt symptoms from any of those combined.
Did you ever consider that such a small percentage felt symptoms of those BECAUSE of preventative measures? While I'll agree that swine flu was nowhere near as dangerous as it first seemed due to the huge under-reporting of cases in Mexico, SARS is every bit as nasty as it was made out to be. Out of 8,096 known infected cases there were 774 deaths. That's one of the higher fatality rates for a disease that is as transmissible as SARS.
As for scaring people about whooping cough, damn right they should be scared of it. They should be scared enough that they don't listen to the bull**** the ant-vax idiots put out and line up to get their kids vaccinated.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic
Oh.
And I suppose those are some good points, Kara. I wasn't saying, "don't get vaccinated" I was saying "go ahead and hug your baby, it probably won't kill him/her."