Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on October 17, 2010, 01:14:22 am
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er... wait, I mean Turks need to learn German
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
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It's crap that I said that, but I think she's right (I'm German so far, most of the Germans don't like her). Crazy what native people in Dresden and other cities think about turks, asians and so on. I know enough turks that do nothing. But they gain money because of frakkin Hartz IV.
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While I don't think that minorities are a root of evil, I am sure that they should do more to solve the social issues than what the liberals propose.
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Need more data. That article lacks any kind of background info on the issue or evidence to support or deny the claim. Cannot form opinion at this time.
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the jist of the situation is that immigrant populations are not assimilating into the host population of Germany effectively resulting in pockets of non-Germans living in Germany. the Germans are unhappy about this situation, as Germany should be the place where Germans live. immigrants from Turkey are the stereotypical example, sort of like Mexicans in America, and sence it's effectively the same thing being said there that is being said here but with nations being switched I titled the thread with the stereotypical American response you the situation here.
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People are way too obsessed with nationality. You crossed my line in the dirt, now you have to do everything I say!
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By what metric though?
Are they negatively impacting the economy, refusing to pay taxes, serve in the military, disobeying German law? Not bothered to apply for citizenship? How many generations have their been since they immigrated? Have there been polls of the immigrant populations showing they have no vested interest in their adopted nation? Are they immigrating illegally into the country or are they following the government standards for entry into the country?
There needs to supply some evidence that the assimilation process is not working besides crying Mexicans. You know who also lived largely in neighborhoods made up of their ethnic group? Just about every group of people that migrated to the United States. You think most cities have a version of China Town, the North End and Southie for no reason? Irish, Italians, Chinese they didn't just step off the boat and go poof and turn into WASPs, it was a gradual process. Furthermore the established population also saw fit to ***** about them arriving as well. So unless their is actually some decent evidence to support the idea that assimilation has failed in Germany it sounds more like:
(http://watchdogmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/IrishNeedNotApply.jpg)
Need MOAR data.
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I suppose the thing is, people have the right to be who they are, but a lack of an ability to communicate between the two groups is the real problem.
The world does need a universal language, but how the hell we are going to get there, I haven't the faintest idea.
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Bah.
Stupid Conservatives.
****ing idiots keep wanting to cater to the "aaaaah, german culture is DYING because it changes" crowd.
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The world does need a universal language, but how the hell we are going to get there, I haven't the faintest idea.
English is the right way to go. Above a certain level, it's knowledge is already necessary. It is not that complicated, either. I think that my generation - or the one after - will make the knowledge of English even more imperative as it is today.
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English does offer a degree of flexibility that is unavailable to many languages, but I suppose the problem isn't so much lingual as social and nationalistic, English is seen in many countries as a language that is forced upon them to 'fit in' to the International community, and that is not only true, it is a Good Thing (tm). Many countries are afraid that they would lose some degree of identity if they allowed their own languages to fall into disuse, but, once again, that may be a good thing, from a certain perspective, we'd have to sacrifice a part of many identities in order to form a single one, regardless of which language was used.
Our diversity, we have been taught, is our friend, I'm inclined to agree, but if you look back over history for 8000 years, there's very little testable evidence of that, diversity has constantly been a source of strife, productive strife, in the large scale, but still strife from the perspective of those at ground level.
I really don't have a clue how to address the problem though, we praise our lack of unity one minute, and decry it the next, it's all very confusing...
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One of the big problems with English is that it's stupid and makes no sense.
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Yup, that's one of its major weaknesses from outside, we take rules for granted that really are quite arbitrary and nonsensical, but we've grown up with them.
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but it's big advantage is that it's currently got the most speakers
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It's pretty obvious "Western" English mixed with Chinese should be the world language.
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but it's big advantage is that it's currently got the most speakers
I thought English had the third most speakers.
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If I can learn English, there shouldn't be many nationalities that couldn't - Finnish is as far away from English as you can get. As a general language, English would be a good choice as large fraction of human kind are already able to speak it. But I guess we will indeed see Chinese and English, being spread on two halves as general languages. I understand about seven languages, so no Chinese for me despite their protests when I visited there. There's only that much vocabulary I can fit in my head, and Chinese would leak over.
Immigration causes always trouble, I think Germans are mainly angry because Turkish don't respect their laws despite that being one of the requirements for being let inside the country. French likely so, since a rather large percentage of their population is already third generation immigrants that haven't fit in the society and don't respect laws.
Sometimes I can't help thinking that the coldness of this country is actually a bless in disguise.
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The world does need a universal language, but how the hell we are going to get there, I haven't the faintest idea.
English is the right way to go. Above a certain level, it's knowledge is already necessary. It is not that complicated, either. I think that my generation - or the one after - will make the knowledge of English even more imperative as it is today.
The ability to communicate with those across the globe with no substantial language barrier is a wonderful thing, but at the same time, I appreciate and enjoy the language diversity spread across the globe. If I make an analogy to different programs which ultimately do the same things, it would be that all languages essentially convey the same things, but will do so differently and in some cases will do a cartain task better than a different language. The beauty of English of course is that if such a condition exists, we assimilate it into our speech.
So, although I will never protest the rising English-speaking population in the world, I will instead make the argument that there ought to be a more substantial educational base for teaching language, at least in the US. I think many of my North American comrades would be inclined to agree.
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The English-speakers in the UK are pretty much the same, I'd even go so far as to suggest that the UK has the worst record for it. I'm pretty much mono-language, I can just barely speak a smattering of French, possibly enough to convey 'I'm a silly English git who got lost because he couldn't read the street signs properly'.
We need a Universal translator for our own planet.
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Before we dive headlong down the "Esperanto Tangent" is their any actual evidence for multiculturalism in German being a failure? Some of the other articles on this issue I've dug up seem to indicate other branches of the German gov't and industry are trying to push for less stringent immigration laws to fill a shortfall of skilled workers that are needed to keep the economic recovery on track.
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The English-speakers in the UK are pretty much the same, I'd even go so far as to suggest that the UK has the worst record for it. I'm pretty much mono-language, I can just barely speak a smattering of French, possibly enough to convey 'I'm a silly English git who got lost because he couldn't read the street signs properly'.
We need a Universal translator for our own planet.
What we need is a higher educational budget in our countries. In this manner, we can employ more specialist educators, pay them properly, and then ideally have a high enough density of them to make an impact on the public education system. Furthermore, the earlier we start with students, the better.
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I know what some people are getting at. The same problem exists in Canada although as of yet I've never heard anyone calling our multicultural experiment a failure. Usually it's looked on as a success. But there are pockets of failure... there are people living here who aren't contributing to society, who don't speak English or French (depending on where you are), and who are generally a drain on society. One way or another it's never a good thing to have a "sub group" like this... regardless of where it was self imposed (I say this loosely) or imposed on them.
Integration into society doesn't necessarily mean a loss of culture either. I know many who I'd say are very successfully integrated but they still have their own strong culture too. It's great to be able to show and experience all of these cultures operating together in relative harmony. A very difficult balance to strike.
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I suppose the thing is, people have the right to be who they are, but a lack of an ability to communicate between the two groups is the real problem.
The world does need a universal language, but how the hell we are going to get there, I haven't the faintest idea.
Wasn't a major component of 9/11 planned by muslims in Germany?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell
I would think that would have been a wake up call that too many are not assimilating.
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Wat.
"There were extremist terrorists in Germany. That must mean they aren't assimilating enough!"
That's what I just heard you say.
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aw ****, 9/11 and terrorism just got folded into this, all we need now is global warming and evolution and this will be the most epic argument thread in HLP history!
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It's pretty common for first generation immigrants to not have a big grasp of the native language. Usually it's their offspring or younger children that are more assimilated. At least in my experience.
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aw ****, 9/11 and terrorism just got folded into this, all we need now is global warming and evolution and this will be the most epic argument thread in HLP history!
You forgot gun rights and taxes.
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It's pretty common for first generation immigrants to not have a big grasp of the native language. Usually it's their offspring or younger children that are more assimilated. At least in my experience.
Most of my linguistics texts back that up. Takes three generations for immigrants to assimilate linguistically (from a linguistic view, so cultural stuff is separate). The first speaks only their native language and a bit of the "new" language. The second generation grows up bi-lingual, and the third only learns a tad of the native tongue and most of the new language. Generalizations, but they often hold true.
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You forgot gun rights and taxes.
I don't think we've ever had a serious tax discussion.
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You forgot gun rights and taxes.
I don't think we've ever had a serious tax discussion.
Well, if by 'serious' you mean 'well-informed,' then no. But I'm pretty sure S-99 was serious when he posted.
Actually, haven't we rehashed the "Rich should pay higher taxes" argument more times than I can readily recount?
Back OT: Honestly, if they're paying taxes like they should, working if they need to, and following the laws, what's the problem? Unless there's a conflict with the official language of a country (is German official there, or just customary?), there should be no problem at all.
Then again, that same position holds true in the United States, no matter how stupid the arguments are.
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It's pretty obvious "Western" English mixed with Chinese should be the world language.
Brown coats suck. Alliance ftw . . . . .
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It's pretty obvious "Western" English mixed with Chinese should be the world language.
Brown coats suck. Alliance ftw . . . . .
I definitely see what you did there! :yes:
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Most of my linguistics texts back that up. Takes three generations for immigrants to assimilate linguistically (from a linguistic view, so cultural stuff is separate). The first speaks only their native language and a bit of the "new" language. The second generation grows up bi-lingual, and the third only learns a tad of the native tongue and most of the new language. Generalizations, but they often hold true.
Hmmm,
My parents emigrated from Sri Lanka to Australia as borderline bilinguals who struggled to understand what was being said to them when they arrived. Now, however, both of my parents speak English almost as frequently their native tongue if not more. Home conversations nowadays are split almost 50/50 Sinhalese to English.
I was (kind of) bilingual during my earlier childhood and originally spoke Sinhalese far more frequently (and probably more competently) than English, though I can only write in English. As I got older and grew up in an English-speaking educational system, that reversed to the point where I can top the first semester English exam for the year and understand about 50% of Sinhalese in general (about 95% of what my parents say to me) and lack the ability to actually speak the language in a sensible manner (with my accent making it hard to pronounce several of the more common sounds).
My younger sister on the other hand fits into what looks to be by that statement, someone who's a third generation immigrant. She's grown up speaking English and learned how to read and write in it after I taught her some of the basics prior to her entering school (much to the surprise of her teachers and classmates :P ). In contrast to this, she doesn't recognise more than about 50-60 words of Sinhalese and doesn't speak the language at all.
I'd say my parents fit more into what you'd call the second generation of immigrants, however.
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It's pretty common for first generation immigrants to not have a big grasp of the native language. Usually it's their offspring or younger children that are more assimilated. At least in my experience.
Most of my linguistics texts back that up. Takes three generations for immigrants to assimilate linguistically (from a linguistic view, so cultural stuff is separate). The first speaks only their native language and a bit of the "new" language. The second generation grows up bi-lingual, and the third only learns a tad of the native tongue and most of the new language. Generalizations, but they often hold true.
The first turks went to Germany in the 60's, didn't they?
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In 1961 Germany and Turkey arrangend a recruitment contract for turkish workers.
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Yes. Back in the 60s, Germany's economy was so strong that the present workforce in Germany wasn't sufficient, so people from Turkey and Italy (predominantly) were given incentive to work here. The expectation was that they would work here for a few years, then return home.
That, obviously, was wrong. Unfortunately, german politics have been in a state of denial about this fact, and were rather hoping the situation would take care of itself. Which was wrong as well.
So basically, the current situation is a ****ing ****fest the same conservative politicians that are now trying to Do Something (TM) rode us into. Cluster**** doesn't begin to describe it.
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Are the Turks... stealin their jurbs?
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No but there are sometimes problems with integration. I'm not really annoyed like some other people are about it - besides the fact that I've been bullied from time to time by some immigrants (not only turkeys) in my past time at school.
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It's pretty obvious "Western" English mixed with Chinese should be the world language.
Brown coats suck. Alliance ftw . . . . .
Gorram Purplebelly
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In 1961 Germany and Turkey arrangend a recruitment contract for turkish workers.
The reason I brang this up is because in this case we are not dealing solely with first generation immigrants.
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Yes. Back in the 60s, Germany's economy was so strong that the present workforce in Germany wasn't sufficient, so people from Turkey and Italy (predominantly) were given incentive to work here. The expectation was that they would work here for a few years, then return home.
That, obviously, was wrong. Unfortunately, german politics have been in a state of denial about this fact, and were rather hoping the situation would take care of itself. Which was wrong as well.
So basically, the current situation is a ****ing ****fest the same conservative politicians that are now trying to Do Something (TM) rode us into. Cluster**** doesn't begin to describe it.
Same in Holland. Nobody ever figured that Holland is actually a nice play to live in (Or atleast, no politician did, they always shout HOLLAND SUCKS EXCEPT WHEN WE RULE IT) and that people actually wanted to stay here.
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So does anyone actually have any tangible evidence, metrics, anecdotes to prove that multiculturalism has failed in Germany? Besides that the government importing a bunch of foreign workers hoping they would eventually leave but didn't? The foreign workers wishing to remain in Germany seems more indicative of multiculturalism working then not. If integration was a complete crap shoot I would be expecting them to be looking to return to their original country.
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So does anyone actually have any tangible evidence, metrics, anecdotes to prove that multiculturalism has failed in Germany? Besides that the government importing a bunch of foreign workers hoping they would eventually leave but didn't? The foreign workers wishing to remain in Germany seems more indicative of multiculturalism working then not. If integration was a complete crap shoot I would be expecting them to be looking to return to their original country.
I don't really think so. It's just that the many, many many examples of successful integration don't get anything close to the airtime on national television than the unsuccessful examples.
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And, in the strictest sense, immigration is not multiculturalism. looked at closely, the whole world is multi-cultural, there isn't a society out there that isn't a mixture of several older ones. As I said earlier, from the point of view of those at ground level, there is always strife, be it Normans and Saxons, the various nation-states of Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire etc.
Given several hundred years, those cultures, with disparate languages and practices have merged together into something new and greater than the parts, but that integration always comes with problems and strife for those involved.
I wouldn't say multi-culturalism has failed, but it is hard and we have to work to make it successfull, on both sides. It will never, ever be easy. We live in a world where we expect results instantly, and some things, like the growth of societies, simply cannot happen on the time scales that we have grown accustomed to.
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Well sounds like standard growing pains then, give it another generation or two then you'll all have some new ethnic group to unite against. What do you think worked the best for integrating the Irish into America? The Italians showing up.
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Same here in the UK, during the 70's we had a lot of racial tension because of an influx of, mostly, Pakistani and African workers, now that tension has died down and a new tension has risen with Eastern Europeans. It's cycles, people hate change, but they do adapt, they may not be happy about it, but it's been the story of civilisation for thousands of years.
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So does anyone actually have any tangible evidence, metrics, anecdotes to prove that multiculturalism has failed in Germany?
just wip out your multicultrometer and take a reading, most places in Germany at at 0.04 - 0.02cu when France UK and the us are all in the 7-8 range, hell even Afghanistan is higher at 0.08.
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When I read an article were a head of state makes a rather stark claim about an important issue I'd like to see some reasoning behind it, rather than use it as a punchline in some painfully irrelevant analogy about Mexicans in the Untied States.
If there is a major failure of the assimilation of immigrants there should be evidence to support it, it isn't an unreasonable request. For example high unemployment in the minority group, raising crime rates, negative impact to the economy etc. Something more tangible then they are not sprechen sie Deutsch fast enough.
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Politicians are like that though, the largest period of time that many politicians can think ahead to is between 'now' and 'the next election'. Anything that requires patience beyond that time frame is something they don't want to consider if at all possible.