Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Nemesis6 on December 26, 2010, 08:49:06 pm
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I've been wondering - Is the Freespace series a niche series, or is it the genre that few people are interested in? Freespace's gameplay is pretty straight forward, and difficulty doesn't seem like that big of a problem, either, so how come there's so little interest in space sims, not to mention the freespace series? I've read a bit about how, due to Freespace 2 not bringing in enough sales, this put the entire space simulator genre on ice, with nobody willing to put effort into making a good game that simply didn't appeal to the masses. So please, do enlighten me, am I crazy in suggesting that there should be a whole lot more attention to this genre?
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Out of all the space sim games, I feel confident in saying that Freespace 1 & 2 have the biggest followings for a variety of reasons. Unforunately, the space sim genre died out because of the tastes of gamers. Without making this into a discussion bashing on current video game tastes, the industry now focuses on shooters games. Sure, there are RPGs, MMOs, music games, and the likes, but if you look at the sheer number of titles of violent first-person shooters, you can see what people want.
I agree, there should be more attention to this genre. Unfortunately, no publisher is willing to risk the investment because of the risk of it being a commercial flop. Let's be honest - FS2 was a commercial disaster. Probably the best space sim game ever published did terribly b/c of some poor decisions in marketing and such. It is a genre that had its time and left a wonderful mark on history. Now it has been replaced by cliche shooters that all feature feature the same enemies, the same weapons, the same plots, etc.
Thank God for the SCP.
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Thank God for the SCP.
That's right. God save the SCP.
Freespace survives because it is ****ing awesome. If I had to pin it to actual reasons, I'd say that the incredible expanse of the game's modability complements the fact that the story is unfinished and so mysterious so well that players naturally stick with it for a while when they play it.
For reasons why it's not more popular, I'll give you reasons why my roommate doesn't like it: There are too many buttons, it makes you dizzy, the briefings are too long, it's too hard to install, FSO is too hard to install (you heard me), it's really hard, the coop multi isn't properly balanced, and the story makes no sense.
These are the kinds of people that walk in when you're playing Vassago's Dirge with full MediaVPs and say "oh that's cool" and then have you download, install, and configure the game for them only to have them skip all of the briefings/training missions/debriefings, skip all of the nebula missions, want to play through on multi the first time, and then they tell you "that was a horrible game" after we finished when they don't even know the names of any of the ships. I will never forgive them for that, and I will never forgive myself for letting them do that.
Or more simply, there just aren't enough people that both enjoy space shooters and are willing to put the time in to play it.
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Too many games these days are made for drunken frat boys. I blame halo.
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I have a hard time believing that people aren't interested in knowing ship names when they play. The folks I introduced that don't like the game generally can't understand the number of buttons, but they read the Tech Room like a Wikipedia article. They weren't too interested in the multi, for the same reason that they weren't too good in the game.
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I don't get the button complaint. Mouse handles shoot and movement. Keyboard handles targeting the nearest target, targeting what's direct ahead, targeting subsystems / weapons on an enemy ship. Then there's the wingman command system. Bank left and bank right. Finally there's the energy system, and the shield equalizer button and that's pretty much it. That's not a lot. I mean, we're not talking simulation-style controls. Damn it, if this is a real complaint, people must have ADD. Freespace is still pretty much an arcade-style game, with some complicated stuff thrown in (destroy the cruiser's beam cannon so it can't hurt the ship that supports you, redirect shields to the side that's weak from a missile hit, etc)
Halo indeed... Man, if this is complicated to people, no wonder the PC gaming scene is in decline.
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I think the problem today is the accesebility of consoles. You go buy a game, plug it in, play. With PC's there's installation, configuration, sometimes theres hiccups in the software, modding is the casual gamers nightmare, first to download and then forget designing (I have some ideas for mods, but haven't a clue about making one. I lack the skill unfortunately :( )
Mix in the fact that the hardware in the PC market advances so quickly. Consoles have a turnover rate of what? 5-6 years these days?
That's a fairly long time. The cost of maintaining a modern PC to run the latest games is WAY higher then buying an xbox, paying for live, and buying the latest games.
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I have a hard time believing that people aren't interested in knowing ship names when they play. The folks I introduced that don't like the game generally can't understand the number of buttons, but they read the Tech Room like a Wikipedia article. They weren't too interested in the multi, for the same reason that they weren't too good in the game.
Fixable!
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It seems like the majority of people just want shoot, die, respawn, cutscene, rinse, repeat, move on to the next game. If you have to think to play it's too hard. I gave up on buying games when I purchased 5 or 6 and went through them in one week. They were all the same with different locations and graphics. How many games have the same Normandy map with only some minor changes and graphics updates?
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People want McDo games.
They buy them, play them, trash them.
We, as a community, have respect for the creators (in proper sense : those who produce something by their hands : coders, modelers, FreDers...) and then, respect for their creations (new ships, improvement of the code, new campaigns) even if sometimes it falls into debate about what is good and what is not.
But nothing's worst than a fan. We must understand those who don't care about our own passion. They were not trained to it ! When I show some friends the -Sara-'s or MetalDestroyer's awesome vids on Youtube, they are :eek2:... But I also know that they will have some difficulties to understand our passion, bathing themselves into it. FreeSpace is a question of passion : it can give very much, but it's also very demanding.
And I think , as a 1998 player, that there is too much key to know to easily handle the game. :P
Not especially for me (I'm used to) but if the number of key to press to play a game exceeds the number of buttons on a XBoX or PS3 gamepad, they will run away.
Immediate pleasure is the LAW today. I know there are exceptions. If not, this community won't have new members. But the market wants immediate pleasure. Poor today's players ! So beautiful games, and so...empty. We're living in a videogaming vacuum.
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Galaxian mod? Hook the console heads?
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(I have some ideas for mods, but haven't a clue about making one. I lack the skill unfortunately :( )
Well then get the tools (QVP, PCS2, notepad, photoshop, perhaps a 3D modeling program) and play around. It's pretty easy to suck a stock ship out of a vp file, then edit the textures, make a moddedship-shp.tbm file for it (the easiest way is to copy the original ship's entry from ships.tbl); edit a few numbers and there you have it- your first mod.
Once you get bored of that, try making your own model, or a mission or something. If you don't give up, in 2 years from now you'll be working on a really big mod with dozens of custom made ships, dozens of missions, and maybe a dozen team members.
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Yep, I've seen people say that they lack the skill often and then go on to try and find that they actually do. The entry level skills are not that hard to get. You'll never know unless you actually try.
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ITT people talk about console games without knowing **** about them
games like assassin's creed brotherhood and red dead redemption are deep and complex both in terms of narrative and gameplay. the console crowd has the attention required for some meaty stuff. if space sims are dead, it's not because people these days are all ADD pleasureseekers.
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I prefer PC over consoles for one reason: Free stuff. :P
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I prefer PC over consoles for one reason: Free stuff. :P
you are the cheapest person known to man
you must be a crab
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I prefer PC over consoles for one reason: Free stuff. :P
you are the cheapest person known to man
you must be a crab
Not really, considering a good PC is several times more expensive than a good console. He prefers other people's PCs over consoles.
Also, @Bat: Complexity and depth of gameplay and narrative doesn't say much about the learning curve and presentation, which are the real problems here. I haven't played RDR so maybe I'm just being silly, but I'd be willing to bet that it's easier to install and configure RDR than FSO. Also, how is story presented in that game? Cutscenes or briefings? I have a hunch it's more of the fact that people would rather watch a movie than sit around and listen to some person tell you what's happening. People aren't are all ADD pleasureseekers, but I'd be willing to bet that most of them are lazy.
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I'm still stuck in the scrolling shooter era. :p
If EVE Online is considered a space sim rather than an RPG in space, maybe FreeSpace doesn't have the largest fanbase in its genre. :nervous:
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DON'T.
YOU.
DARE.
:hopping:
Compare FreeSpace to EVE. The only thing they have in common is that they take place in space. EVE players will knife you if they get the chance. The only way to win in EVE is not to play.
Freespace was the last great Space Sim. The last one I bought was a crappy Eastern Euro import called Project: Freedom, the game play was...OK, but the story was awful and not told well at all.
I'm holding out a lot of hope that Black Prophecy (http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/) will be as good as it looks in the trailers. It could spark a revival of the Space Sim genre and possibly a new FS.
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There are still games with elements of space sim, but they're all pretty much Elite-likes (X series, Parkan 2, etc.). Project Freedom has nice graphics and simple gameplay, but it's rather average in terms of storyline and controlls (I don't like the mouse flying, FS had a much better balance between "arcade" and "sim" controlls).
Also, I don't really understand the idea behind consoles. They are expensive, not customizable and useless for anything besides gaming. PC is superior to them in almost every way.
As for Black Prophecy, it's another online mutiplayer game, so nothing I'd be interested in (again, luduciriously expensive, no singleplayer storyline, no modding, and you have to keep paying to keep playing).
IMHO, for a true revival, a real space sim with good graphics, entertaining gameplay and interesting storyline. Something like FS3, or a next Wing Commander (with WC3-level masterpiece as a storyline).
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As for Black Prophecy, it's another online mutiplayer game, so nothing I'd be interested in (again, luduciriously expensive, no singleplayer storyline, no modding, and you have to keep paying to keep playing).
It's quite impressive how much wrongness you managed to fit into one sentence there. :p
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yeah it's funny, i didn't like mmos but then posts like that make me think the anti-mmo crowd simply have no idea what they're on about and are just running in circles
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MMOs absorb more of your time (in a good way) meaning you have to spend less on other games because you finish them in 2 hours.
While I was playing WoW during vanilla, I spent less on games that I did for years before that (and it was a decent year for games too), and, the moment I stopped playing, BOOM, back to +-400GBP/year on games.
MMOs aren't expensive.
They can easily include storyline if they like, and it be 'single player' centric, they are often far more expansive, good MMOs aim to be massively moddable, WoW has a HUGE Mod community, enough to fill HLP a thousand times over I expect, and again, even if you pay (I dunno.. what's the most expensive MMO I can think of...) 10? GBP a month, that's easily less than what I spend on games a year and I will spend far less on games BECAUSE I'm playing the MMO.
Neocron did the same to me too, and AO.
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Actually I was referring to how Black Prophecy has been announced as being free to play.
As long as they sort things out so that those playing for free can have fun but make enough money from those who want the coolest stuff they should be golden.
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Damn, black prophecy looks awesome. I wonder what happened to that other game, Naumachia, was it?
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It was a competition between simple and fast, or complex and deep - the former won out, because that's what the greater majority of people want to play.
The mistake many make, however, is that they assume that the only way to make money is to pander to the masses and make yet another shooter. There is still a relatively large amount of people who want complex gameplay or want to play a space game or a flight "sim" (HAWX, while not a sim, sold over a million copies) - it's just that if you look at the numbers, the amount of people playing games vs the amount of people who would want to buy a more complex or difficult game is rather discouraging; there's like 10 million Halo players vs. 500,000 space gamers or whatever. What many people forget is that 500,000 is still a very large number - at $40 a game, that's $20,000,000 worth of profit.
IMO this is where the door is opened for indie devs to really rock the industry and their own wallets.
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Black Prophecy is being made by the same people who made Neocron (NC2 is currently also free-to-play).
UT: 500,000 if /everyone/ who likes the genre buys it, also, 40x500,000 may = 20,000,000 but that's not profit :p
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Black Prophecy is being made by the same people who made Neocron (NC2 is currently also free-to-play).
UT: 500,000 if /everyone/ who likes the genre buys it, also, 40x500,000 may = 20,000,000 but that's not profit :p
Yea, but I guarantee you there's more than 500,000 people out there who like space combat, and I bet you that most of that 500,000 will be made up of people who buy it because they're tired of playing shooters. Plus, if you're an indie dev, your development costs basically equal 0 (disregarding the price of your personal computer and whatever software you use), so that $20,000,000 goes straight to pocket (well, and the IRS).
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I have been a devoted fan of the PCs for a whole decade. However, I decided that I deserved something for working off my ass in high school, and so I ordered my parents to buy me a PS3. So, having experienced both worlds, I believe I have a good view on the issue here.
The PC is still awesome - it has better graphics than any console will ever have, even if we're talking about a port from a console. Something among the lines of FS2 with all the shiny SCP graphics or Crysis is just unreachable for X-Box or PS3. The ability to mod games is also a great thing. And don't even get me started on all the various things beside gaming that you can do on a PC... Also, PC games cost like 50% less than their console counterparts (God bless Poland :D).
And it's also a common myth that PCs cost a lot to maintain. Thanks to the consoles and the fact that all games are catered for them, even a moderate rig can still play games on high details. I bought a Core2Duo @2,66GHz, GeForce 8800GT and 2GB RAM machine almost 3 years ago for about $400-500. I haven't changed a thing in it all this time, except for the gfx card which got broken - it got upgraded (for free !) to 9800GT because the shop didn't have any more 8800GTs. I am yet to find a game that would beat this rig - I can play almost everything on full details, maybe just reducing shadow quality every now and then a bit. But the games still look helluva better than their console version - Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are the prime examples.
What I have to give to the consoles is their ease of use. I must admit, that there are times when I'd rather buy a console game, because of the ease of installation. You just put the disc in the drive, wait till it gets installed and you play it. On PC, you have to configure it and possibly mess around with the config files to get even better performance, at the same time worrying about stupid DRM (Ubisoft, I am looking at you !), system specs, whether the game was designed for ATI or nVidia card, etc. And then the game may just randomly crash, because Windows decided that it's a good time for a crash or because the designers didn't test the game on every possible PC configuration. When compared to the consoles, it almost seems that playing on PC is a gamble :P
And, last but not least, the very way of playing differs. Maybe it's only me, but I get really involved when I play PC games. I sit close to the monitor, desperately twisting my joystick to get that one last Dragon in FS2 before it can blast my remaining 2% of hull. I desperately move my mouse to hit that damn tentacle in Dead Space. I stop breathing for a few seconds when I aim with my sniper rifle in Mass Effect.
And on consoles ? I lie on sofa, lazily moving my thumbs and pressing buttons while I play on a 40" LCD TV that is quite far from me. It's almost like watching a TV. The only moment when you become more active is when you have to mash buttons like a madman in some QTE.
Summary - gaming on consoles requires less effort and is easier = gaming becomes more accessible = more people play it = the devs get more money. Gaming has become yet another entertainment and lost a lot of its nerdy and geeky status.
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I really like and agree with your post...
What I have to give to the consoles is their ease of use. I must admit, that there are times when I'd rather buy a console game, because of the ease of installation. You just put the disc in the drive, wait till it gets installed and you play it. On PC, you have to configure it and possibly mess around with the config files to get even better performance, at the same time worrying about stupid DRM (Ubisoft, I am looking at you !), system specs, whether the game was designed for ATI or nVidia card, etc. And then the game may just randomly crash, because Windows decided that it's a good time for a crash or because the designers didn't test the game on every possible PC configuration. When compared to the consoles, it almost seems that playing on PC is a gamble :P
And, last but not least, the very way of playing differs. Maybe it's only me, but I get really involved when I play PC games. I sit close to the monitor, desperately twisting my joystick to get that one last Dragon in FS2 before it can blast my remaining 2% of hull. I desperately move my mouse to hit that damn tentacle in Dead Space. I stop breathing for a few seconds when I aim with my sniper rifle in Mass Effect.
And on consoles ? I lie on sofa, lazily moving my thumbs and pressing buttons while I play on a 40" LCD TV that is quite far from me. It's almost like watching a TV. The only moment when you become more active is when you have to mash buttons like a madman in some QTE.
...especially these two parts. :yes:
In fact, when I sit down to play with my PC, I know in advance that I will be playing most with the system than with my game, tweaking some stuff, testing new mods for the various games I have.
Unlike with my console : like you, I'm on my sofa playing comfortably. But I felt sometime thrills while playing (Silent Hill 2 :shaking:). And we are active (with my friends) when we play some RockBand, Guitar Hero, DJ Hero, Wii Sports... Sometimes I wake up the next day with pain in my arms due to "too convinced gaming" :lol:
I think that playing with console is more a group distraction, more...social. I play "social" with my PC only on LAN. I know about the MMORPG, or others community games, but I like playing alone with my PC and with several people on console.
FreeSpace screen-splitted ?
Don't hit me.
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Yea, but I guarantee you there's more than 500,000 people out there who like space combat, and I bet you that most of that 500,000 will be made up of people who buy it because they're tired of playing shooters. Plus, if you're an indie dev, your development costs basically equal 0 (disregarding the price of your personal computer and whatever software you use), so that $20,000,000 goes straight to pocket (well, and the IRS).
Distro, logistics, promotion, anyone other than you working on it, assets if needed, etc etc.
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It is also true that if the FreeSpace series had the recognition it deserved, perhaps we would not be here to discuss ... But we would have had the joy of knowing the end of the story!
A blessing in disguise?
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I really like and agree with your post...
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...especially these two parts. :yes:
Thanks :)
In fact, when I sit down to play with my PC, I know in advance that I will be playing most with the system than with my game, tweaking some stuff, testing new mods for the various games I have.
Unlike with my console : like you, I'm on my sofa playing comfortably. But I felt sometime thrills while playing (Silent Hill 2 :shaking:). And we are active (with my friends) when we play some RockBand, Guitar Hero, DJ Hero, Wii Sports... Sometimes I wake up the next day with pain in my arms due to "too convinced gaming" :lol:
Yeah, of course you can't put every game into the same bag. Console games can be very engaging, both physically (especially when you have motion controls) and emotionally (Silent Hill 2 or Heavy Rain, damn did I get involved in them). It's just that I think that in general, consoles allow you to be more relaxed - the design of the controllers help here. When I fly in FS2 or any other sim on my PC, I tend to move my entire body. Folks at home tend to send me some strange looks because I'm so engaged :P When I play my PS3, I can very well close my eyes and pretend I'm asleep with ease.
Then again, I finished Heavy rain just today and boy, that was exciting. You use the motion sensor in DualShock *A LOT* in this game.
I think that playing with console is more a group distraction, more...social. I play "social" with my PC only on LAN. I know about the MMORPG, or others community games, but I like playing alone with my PC and with several people on console.
One word to support your statement - Wii. This is as social a console can get, IMHO. MMOs or multiplayer games can become really social only if you know the players quite well and preferably have them on your headset.
FreeSpace screen-splitted ?
Don't hit me.
Well, that would have to be one helluva screen to pull this off - you need to be quite precise when for example taking out capship turrets with Maxims. And I'm not sure if the game's atmosphere and stuff are suited for splitscreen, though it's of course IMHO. What I'd love to have is a co-op campaign. Let's be honest, how many times have you wished your wingmen were a bit smarter ? (yes, I know that Fury AI helps a lot, but it's still not the same)
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DON'T.
YOU.
DARE.
:hopping:
Compare FreeSpace to EVE. The only thing they have in common is that they take place in space. EVE players will knife you if they get the chance. The only way to win in EVE is not to play.
**** you man. I was okay with your spouting bull**** in the other thread, but now we're down to personal insults for myself and my wife both. You could have at least pointed out some of the valid differences.
The knife you if they get the chance thing is more or less true of both games now, if you've even glanced at the CoW or BP campaigns.
As long as they sort things out so that those playing for free can have fun but make enough money from those who want the coolest stuff they should be golden.
Never been done effectively. :P People will drop huge, ridiculous amounts of money on it, basically. Neveron died because people were willing to spend thousands of bucks to dominate the game. Someone dropped over 100 large to build an alliance out of whole cloth in EVE. The insanity of us monkeys at the keyboard breaks the systems.
Unless you count KoL, but that's not very multiplayer.
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DON'T.
YOU.
DARE.
:hopping:
Compare FreeSpace to EVE. The only thing they have in common is that they take place in space. EVE players will knife you if they get the chance. The only way to win in EVE is not to play.
okay so this makes it sound as if you are a chump who got owned particularly badly through some fault of your own and now you are butthurt
probably not the impression you want to make
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EVE is like playing an office simulator in space. It's so realistic that it even simulates the really boring parts of space travel, where you spend hours flying between destinations and doing repetitive tasks over and over again.
The only way to make EVE more realistic would be to let you play video games on a terminal inside your spaceship.
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DON'T.
YOU.
DARE.
:hopping:
Compare FreeSpace to EVE. The only thing they have in common is that they take place in space. EVE players will knife you if they get the chance. The only way to win in EVE is not to play.
okay so this makes it sound as if you are a chump who got owned particularly badly through some fault of your own and now you are butthurt
probably not the impression you want to make
Musta missed the part where I said I trusted someone in there and he sicked his goons on me. Also, my not have been paying attention over the whole time I've ever been posting on here where I don't give out my trust easily or often.
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EVE is like playing an office simulator in space. It's so realistic that it even simulates the really boring parts of space travel, where you spend hours flying between destinations and doing repetitive tasks over and over again.
The only way to make EVE more realistic would be to let you play video games on a terminal inside your spaceship.
Aye. Eve Online features a purchasable "CPU Upgrade". If only that aided in the playing of minigames ingame!
I can see Eve as interesting if you're into spending years just learning a game. As I mentioned in another thread, I tried liking this game, but every at single turn, every single time I tried doing something that might be interpreted as "fun", my ship would be destroyed, and more boredom would be shoveled on top of the already tedious gameplay(making money for a new ship, in order to repeat this process). Then I made an entire alliance angry at me because I called them something in the local chat. Funny story actually: The system my corporation was based at was held by a neutral alliance. It saw regular pirate attacks, and the pirates apparently called the neutral ones "blobsters". Of course I didn't know that at the time, so I assumed it was just a nickname for them. So when I saw local chat swarmed with friendly ships, I wanted to be friendly, and I said "Hello blobsters". Then I was accused of being a pirate, then an alternate account. Particularly hilarious was the fact that the actual pirates got involved in the chat and told them that me and my corporation wasn't part of them.
I think that was actually the most fun I've ever had in Eve. And that was boring! Spreadsheet in space. :lol: