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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 09:47:15 am

Title: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 09:47:15 am
I mean seriously is there any reason the Aeolus should still have these given its role as an anti-fighter warship? A pair of ULTRA's in their place would make them even more effective with their role.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 04, 2011, 09:49:12 am
YES do it. And then give the Aeolus the BALLS OF STEELE AI. You've never seen such a disco inferno in Freespace. Trust me.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 04, 2011, 10:12:44 am
Because it needs at least some form of capital ship protection for itself maybe?
And two ULTRA-AAAs would mean that just about half of every Strike Craft present in a mission is guarenteed to be killed by it unless it's the first thing that gets destroyed.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 10:17:48 am
Because it needs at least some form of capital ship protection for itself maybe?
And two ULTRA-AAAs would mean that just about half of every Strike Craft present in a mission is guarenteed to be killed by it unless it's the first thing that gets destroyed.

It's flak cannons do more damage per minute than its SGreens do.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 04, 2011, 10:20:43 am
If you want overkill, give an Aeolus two Svas^^
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 04, 2011, 10:26:43 am
They're typically not firing those at anything other than fighters or bombers unless there's absolutely nothing else around them to shoot at.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: PsychoLandlord on June 04, 2011, 12:32:09 pm
Yes, lets make the Aeolus even MORE of a ***** to go after. That sounds GREAT. :hopping:

(In all seriousness though, from a tactical standpoint it does make quite a bit of sense.)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Hades on June 04, 2011, 12:36:32 pm
I mean seriously is there any reason the Aeolus should still have these given its role as an anti-fighter warship? A pair of ULTRA's in their place would make them even more effective with their role.
And why not replace all cruiser anti-capital beams with AAAF beams? They're all inherently anti-fighter warships, because if they were anticapital warships, then there would be no reason to build anything larger than a cruiser.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 04, 2011, 12:48:41 pm
Given how powerful meson reactors are, ULTRA AAAF should be standard of all post-Capella capital ships already.


AAAf beams (not you, TerSlashBlueAAA) must be special, huh. Since meson ships can use them as well but fusion ships can't use blue beams.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Hades on June 04, 2011, 12:54:54 pm
Given how powerful meson reactors are, ULTRA AAAF should be standard of all post-Capella capital ships already.


AAAf beams (not you, TerSlashBlueAAA) must be special, huh. Since meson ships can use them as well but fusion ships can't use blue beams.
The problem is, that wouldn't make for interesting nor fun gameplay since Ultra AAAF beams are so powerful and I think have longer range. They're also bigger, too, so they have more room to be inaccurate.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 12:58:43 pm
Given how powerful meson reactors are, ULTRA AAAF should be standard of all post-Capella capital ships already.


AAAf beams (not you, TerSlashBlueAAA) must be special, huh. Since meson ships can use them as well but fusion ships can't use blue beams.


To be fair ULTRA's on all the Tev corvette's would seriously unbalance the game (doesn't the Chimera have like 7 anti fighter beams?) Since the Warspite used them in place of it's TerSlash beams I figure they take a fair amount of power and space, which is why they should replace the SGreens instead of standard AAAf's.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 04, 2011, 01:19:05 pm
But that would seriously make it very hard the only way to get up and close to an Aeolus...and from behind, of directions left. If the engine wash isn't bad enough, being unable to come from the front is. I'd go with this ULTRA AAF thing replacing the SGreens, but only on a few Aeolus cruisers escorting the Atreus/Imperieus or combat evaluation units. Even though I'm a GTVA supporter, I don't want WiH2 to be unplayable because I'm skewered from 3 klicks away chasing a fighter and straying into the frontal arcs of the modified Beamolus.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 04, 2011, 01:49:12 pm
With all the new ships the GTVA already has and that mini-cruiser/gunboat (whatever it's called) comming up in WiH2 I doubt modifying the few Aeolus in service in Sol is a high priority to the GTVA, especially since they already do so well in their intended role.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 04, 2011, 01:56:06 pm
With all the new ships the GTVA already has and that mini-cruiser/gunboat (whatever it's called) comming up in WiH2 I doubt modifying the few Aeolus in service in Sol is a high priority to the GTVA, especially since they already do so well in their intended role.
I believe it's called the Cretheus...and yeah, the Aeolus does pretty well in it's intended role. So well they can't use Standard Flak at all...which is quite pretty.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 02:10:53 pm
With all the new ships the GTVA already has and that mini-cruiser/gunboat (whatever it's called) comming up in WiH2 I doubt modifying the few Aeolus in service in Sol is a high priority to the GTVA, especially since they already do so well in their intended role.


The Aeolus is still being produced so it's not like it's being phased out or anything, especially since the Hyperion doesn't offer a lot in the way of performance increases.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 04, 2011, 02:15:27 pm
Unless the Hyperion is in a mission where it's staged that every fighter attacking it is lodging Itano Circus down its throat I've actually seen it handle itself against fighters very well.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 04, 2011, 02:28:02 pm
With all the new ships the GTVA already has and that mini-cruiser/gunboat (whatever it's called) comming up in WiH2 I doubt modifying the few Aeolus in service in Sol is a high priority to the GTVA, especially since they already do so well in their intended role.


The Aeolus is still being produced so it's not like it's being phased out or anything, especially since the Hyperion doesn't offer a lot in the way of performance increases.
It is in limited production. So while it's not being phased out, there are comparetively few of them in service in total and judging from what we saw in WiH, they didn't bring all that many with them into Sol (or cruisers in general for that matter).
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Scotty on June 04, 2011, 02:39:55 pm
Five Aeolus.
Three Leviathan.
Seven Hyperion.

Those are the cruiser breakdowns for all of BP so far on the Tev side.  The number of Aeolus cruisers we see in WiH alone is nearly 25% of all Aeolus cruisers produced before the Second Shivan Incursion.  There may also be more we don't know about, since we have no confirmation on any ships in the 16th Battlegroup.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 04, 2011, 02:48:56 pm
Unless the Hyperion is in a mission where it's staged that every fighter attacking it is lodging Itano Circus down its throat I've actually seen it handle itself against fighters very well.

I refer to the second veteran's comment about it's performance. I guess we were spoiled in FS2 because the Aeolus was such a huge improvement over the Fenris and Leviathan.

Quote
Those are the cruiser breakdowns for all of BP so far on the Tev side.  The number of Aeolus cruisers we see in WiH alone is nearly 25% of all Aeolus cruisers produced before the Second Shivan Incursion.  There may also be more we don't know about, since we have no confirmation on any ships in the 16th Battlegroup

IIRC after Capella production resumed and there was 18 years (why does everything have to be "18"?) between that and BP.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 04, 2011, 03:48:20 pm
Five Aeolus.
Three Leviathan.
Seven Hyperion.

Those are the cruiser breakdowns for all of BP so far on the Tev side.  The number of Aeolus cruisers we see in WiH alone is nearly 25% of all Aeolus cruisers produced before the Second Shivan Incursion.  There may also be more we don't know about, since we have no confirmation on any ships in the 16th Battlegroup.
Five ships that might have been constructed as far back as 20 years ago and seven ships that are brand new for sure.... I don't really see anything to contradict my point of view.
Not that the number of produced Aeolus really matters much for the point I originally made.... that I mentioned more as an afterthough, than a main argument.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Scotty on June 04, 2011, 04:16:11 pm
I was merely pointing out that the Aeolus makes up on a minority of the cruiser assets we've seen so far, and that even then, the amount we've seen could very wel be a significant percentage of the Aeolus cruisers in the fleet now.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 04, 2011, 08:52:38 pm
Because it needs at least some form of capital ship protection for itself maybe?
And two ULTRA-AAAs would mean that just about half of every Strike Craft present in a mission is guarenteed to be killed by it unless it's the first thing that gets destroyed.

It's flak cannons do more damage per minute than its SGreens do.

Not to mention that Ultras do nearly three times the sustained damage over time that SGreens do.

Never underestimate the suckiness of the SGreen.

That said, I don't want to fly missions against Ultra-armed Aeoli. Especially not if there are one or more Karunas in my field of view. :p
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Sara- on June 05, 2011, 08:36:33 am
I'd rather see downsized Mjolnirs with (Ultra) Anti-Fighter beams. It makes far more sense that capital ships or minelayers could drop these to create a defense screen, now perhaps even with their own shield generator as technology did boom since the second Shivan invasion. Remember that Ultra AAA are largely overloaded beams and that addapting such technology to replace excisting beams is probably very costly and difficult, money best spent on building a new line of ships better equiped to battle fighters and bombers.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 05, 2011, 08:40:32 am
Would it be going too overboard if Mjolnirs were upgraded with the missile launchers and shielding that they were originally described with having?

On another note, will there be a sentry platform for the UEF at some point?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 05, 2011, 10:30:47 pm
I'm leaning more to the UEF having more of MAC platforms instead of tiny sentry guns, Kumaris and Bretonias in WiH2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2011, 03:16:23 am
Mjolnirs are pretty close to MAC sattelites in their role, only that in Halo they didn't have jumpnodes as bottlenecks, so they placed them in orbit of their planets instead.
I think I'm going to put a few Mjolnirs with mass drivers into FRED and see how that looks.

On a related note: Is it possible to allow Mjolnirs to turn on the spot in order to track targets, instead of firing straight ahead (or replacing the beam)?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 06, 2011, 04:14:17 am
Mjolnirs are pretty close to MAC sattelites in their role, only that in Halo they didn't have jumpnodes as bottlenecks, so they placed them in orbit of their planets instead.
I think I'm going to put a few Mjolnirs with mass drivers into FRED and see how that looks?
They look (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/MassdrivenMjolnirs.jpg) very pretty. (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/ShootingatDante.jpg)

We might be going a bit offtopic here though, haha.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 06, 2011, 06:07:34 am
Mjolnirs are pretty close to MAC sattelites in their role, only that in Halo they didn't have jumpnodes as bottlenecks, so they placed them in orbit of their planets instead.
I think I'm going to put a few Mjolnirs with mass drivers into FRED and see how that looks.

On a related note: Is it possible to allow Mjolnirs to turn on the spot in order to track targets, instead of firing straight ahead (or replacing the beam)?

I believe the Mjolnir#home or something like that allows it.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2011, 06:28:53 am
Nope, still doesn't turn. It does use the full field of fire, but you get the same if you replace the standard mjolnirs beam with any other weapon. It also seems to have the same table values set... or at least nothing stood out on a quick scan, except for the default weapon used.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 06, 2011, 06:34:05 am
Mjolnirs are actually cruisers. If you set the rotation time to something less they should be able to turn.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 06, 2011, 06:42:47 am
This would be really ugly.
No someone must add two missile launchers and we have what the Techroom promised us.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 06, 2011, 06:59:18 am
The Tech Room says three launchers and two beam weapons, possibly the second for housing an AAA beam, but since it wasn't made as described nobody can say.

If anyone knows I-War then they know how much of a mess it would be if Gunstars were added. :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 06, 2011, 07:45:42 am
The Tech Room says three launchers and two beam weapons, possibly the second for housing an AAA beam, but since it wasn't made as described nobody can say.

If anyone knows I-War then they know how much of a mess it would be if Gunstars were added. :P

I just noticed....

Spoiler:
Terran "Black" Command = Jefferson Clay :eek2:

and i LOVE GUNSTAAAAAAARRRRRSSSS!!

Also i love CNV-301, indies = scum

Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2011, 08:50:42 am
Mjolnirs are actually cruisers. If you set the rotation time to something less they should be able to turn.

set-object-facing-object
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 06, 2011, 10:14:39 am
Well that also works.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2011, 11:10:13 am
Mjolnirs are actually cruisers. If you set the rotation time to something less they should be able to turn.

set-object-facing-object
Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work on Mjolnirs. Their gun points "up" not "forwards" and thus that command makes sure the Mjolnir is unable to attack that oject it's supposed to face.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2011, 11:15:52 am
Mjolnirs are actually cruisers. If you set the rotation time to something less they should be able to turn.

set-object-facing-object
Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work on Mjolnirs. Their gun points "up" not "forwards" and thus that command makes sure the Mjolnir is unable to attack that oject it's supposed to face.

BP Mjolnirs have this fixed, so it works fine.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 06, 2011, 12:00:56 pm
Mjolnirs are actually cruisers. If you set the rotation time to something less they should be able to turn.

set-object-facing-object
Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work on Mjolnirs. Their gun points "up" not "forwards" and thus that command makes sure the Mjolnir is unable to attack that oject it's supposed to face.

BP Mjolnirs have this fixed, so it works fine.

Every day I find something that makes me love BP a little more.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2011, 12:07:13 pm
Or will make, in this case. I just tried it out and both the Mjolnir and Mjolnir#home behave the same way in the currently released version, so that fix must be in an internal version at the moment.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2011, 12:31:20 pm
Or will make, in this case. I just tried it out and both the Mjolnir and Mjolnir#home behave the same way in the currently released version, so that fix must be in an internal version at the moment.

Well yeah, given that Mjolnirs haven't been used up to this point...
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 06, 2011, 12:35:28 pm
A forward-facing Mjolnir: http://www.mediafire.com/?xk19816sgl49ede
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2011, 12:37:42 pm
A forward-facing Mjolnir: http://www.mediafire.com/?xk19816sgl49ede

Lacks dockpoints!
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 06, 2011, 01:54:21 pm
Wat rly? O.o

I... don't think it does. :nervous:
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Droid803 on June 07, 2011, 05:55:22 pm
Forward facing Mjolnirs break retail missions. Hence they are stupid. (Well, at the very least it will totally obliterate the claim that you can play every retail mission properly with BP selected as a mod :P)
Dockpointed ones are better, since you can aim them by docking to an Argo then deleting the Argo afterwards

And you can still rotate them with ship-maneuver in-mission if you do it right. You just need to rotate your axes 90 degrees.

Though really, :v: was just silly when the initially made mjolnirs.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2011, 06:01:33 pm
Forward facing Mjolnirs break retail missions. Hence they are stupid. (Well, at the very least it will totally obliterate the claim that you can play every retail mission properly with BP selected as a mod :P)

I know you know how to create new ship.tbl entries, which makes this comment really silly!
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 07, 2011, 06:02:29 pm
Forward facing Mjolnirs break retail missions. Hence they are stupid. (Well, at the very least it will totally obliterate the claim that you can play every retail mission properly with BP selected as a mod :P)
Wrong. You just have to have them named differently from the retail Mjolnir. Problem solved.

EDIT: Ninja'd
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Droid803 on June 07, 2011, 06:09:23 pm
So we'll have Mjolnir Mjolnir#Home and Mjolnir#Forward and Mjolnir#FORWARDHOME just because we can be redudnant.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Trivial Psychic on June 07, 2011, 06:12:35 pm
Don't forget Mjolnir#ForwardAutoTarget and Mjolnir#ForwardHomeAutoTarget.  :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Droid803 on June 07, 2011, 06:13:29 pm
and Mjolnir#IAmSoGoingToGoOverTheCharacterLimitAndCrashFSOCauseIAmCoolLikeThat
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 07, 2011, 06:14:17 pm
It's already redundant that they have two in the first place.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 08, 2011, 02:54:34 am
And since we alraedy are so far away from the original topic this is as good a place as any to ask.
Why is the home variant of the mjolnir even there? Apart from a different default weapon there seems to be no difference between the two.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 08, 2011, 07:51:27 am
#Home has a field of fire so it isn't only firing in the direction that it's pointing.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 08, 2011, 09:49:12 am
If you give the standard mjolnir the same beam the #home has (or any other weapon than it's original beam for that matter), it also has a field of fire.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 08, 2011, 09:54:28 am
You just repeated what I said.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 08, 2011, 10:02:49 am
Okay, then you must have misunderstood my question then. There are two models of Mjolnir. Not just two beams, but also two models complete with .pof files and table entries.

Everything the mjolnir#home model can do, a normal mjolnir can do as well if you replace it's weapon on FRED, so why have two identical models with just different default weaopns?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 08, 2011, 10:09:03 am
2,000 extra hitpoints.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 08, 2011, 10:11:08 am
two models complete with .pof files
No there aren't. They're only different table entries. It's still redundant, though, especially since Mjolnir#home isn't even used AFAIK.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Droid803 on June 08, 2011, 11:43:06 pm
I'm pretty sure one of the Mjolnirs in the kigns'gambit is a mjolnir#home
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 09, 2011, 01:05:55 am
Oh you're right.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 09, 2011, 02:27:31 am
Home = where all the Mjolnirs live :yes:
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 09, 2011, 08:37:50 am
Home = where all the Mjolnirs live :yes:
You like to see Mjolnirs naked?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 09, 2011, 08:51:23 am
Home = where all the Mjolnirs live :yes:
You like to see Mjolnirs naked?
When you do that they usually lash out at you with a green-colored beam that mauls your sensor subsystem.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: PsychoLandlord on June 09, 2011, 12:19:12 pm
Home = where all the Mjolnirs live :yes:
You like to see Mjolnirs naked?
When you do that they usually lash out at you with a green-colored beam that mauls your sensor subsystem.

Ah Yes. Mace beams. Truly the arch-nemesis of voyeurs everywhere.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Luis Dias on June 09, 2011, 01:00:56 pm
They are a bit shy you know
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: rubixcube on June 09, 2011, 05:07:36 pm
getting back on topic... they could just buff the sgreen's a lttle.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 09, 2011, 05:16:55 pm
Yeah. Seeing as how they're building a whole new line of Aeoli anyway it couldn't be so hard to buff their main weapons.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 10, 2011, 12:04:58 pm
getting back on topic... they could just buff the sgreen's a lttle.


One thing the SBlue proved: Even buffed SGreens still really suck.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 12:12:48 pm
Replace the SGreens with Gauss Cannons
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 10, 2011, 12:16:50 pm
But that isn't a Tev weapon. :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 10, 2011, 12:18:00 pm
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 10, 2011, 12:34:50 pm
SC Lilith *tremble*
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 10, 2011, 12:41:02 pm
SC Lilith *tremble*
Eh,what about the little rakshasa beam inferno?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 10, 2011, 12:47:03 pm
Eh, thee SReds do little less than half of what a single LRed does and for over twice the recharge time.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 10, 2011, 12:57:40 pm
Yeah. The Lilith simply can't be matched in terms of raw firepower.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Mars on June 10, 2011, 01:16:57 pm
In BP canon IIRC LRed armed Liliths are an exception rather than a rule.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 01:28:45 pm
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...

The second most powerful beam in vanilla FS2 is a terran one that's (barely) small enough to be mounted on a cruiser. The GTVA just chooses not to, for some undiscernable reason.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 01:29:08 pm
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...

The second most powerful beam in vanilla FS2 is a terran one that's (barely) small enough to be mounted on a cruiser. The GTVA just chooses not to, for some undiscernable reason.

wat
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 10, 2011, 01:33:00 pm
I guess if you completely hollow out the inner workings of a Leviathan and replace everything from the nose, back to were the engines used to bel, you might actually fit an LRBGreen in there.... but you'd have to fit external engines to that thing, so it can move :p
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 10, 2011, 01:35:30 pm
But the only reason the Terrans have anything more powerful than a BGreen is because said BGreen was overcharged. Essentially you're saying they would put a BGreen in a hollowed-out Leviathan, and then overcharge it, which if it even fired at all, would probably make the ship explode immeidately after.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 10, 2011, 01:46:30 pm
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...

The second most powerful beam in vanilla FS2 is a terran one that's (barely) small enough to be mounted on a cruiser. The GTVA just chooses not to, for some undiscernable reason.

wat
Might he be talking about the MjolnirBeam?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 10, 2011, 01:50:14 pm
Given the recharge time it's likely.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 02:22:03 pm
Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus.  :p

Of course, the easy way out of this is to say that the GTVA engineers pushed the Mjolnirbeam's performance to levels that are way too dangerous to be mounted on a manned ship.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Dragon on June 10, 2011, 02:25:42 pm
Note, it could have some drawback not mentioned in game (like, it generates so much heat and radiation that any crew would get fried. That would also help explain rotating bits as a radiator). This could be the reason Terran beams can't be more powerfull. While their power could be increased, it would also make them emit too much radiation to be safely used. Neither Shivans nor RBCs would have problem with it, so they have better beams.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 10, 2011, 02:28:30 pm
What Dragon said. I have a feeling the Mjolnirs were uber expensive, very high-maintenance, like they could only be fired a couple times (ie. 1 sortie duration) before they had to be retired or gutted, or they had some devilishly complicated cooling system, or radiation issues, or were powered by kittens, whatever. Something that precluded it being outfitted on capital ships.

I mean there has to be a reason besides hurr durr command is dumb that they didn't fit them on more ships.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 02:28:43 pm
Curse you for ninjaing my edit!  :p
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 02:29:06 pm
Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus.  :p

It'd more likely come out the size of a corvette with the hitpoints of a freighter.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 02:40:28 pm
I mean there has to be a reason besides hurr durr command is dumb that they didn't fit them on more ships.

True. Although even if the reason were hurr durr command is dumb, it would be far from the dumbest thing command has done.

Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus.  :p

It'd more likely come out the size of a corvette with the hitpoints of a freighter.


While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity. Hell, the Chimera's model strongly suggests that its main guns run at least half the length of the ship, making each of them take up more space than a mjolnirbeam.

Assuming, of course, that radiation and stability weren't the issues.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 02:47:06 pm
While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity.

Have you seen how many hit points a Mjolnir has? I'll stay here while you go look it up.

Now you're seriously suggesting that stringing that thing together with armor, propulsion, reactors, heat sinks, radiation cladding, crew spaces, more armor, fuel, reaction mass for the beams, damage control material, supplies for long deployment, and more armor (remember, the base Mjolnir is fragile as hell) is going to end up the size of a cruiser?

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Hell, the Chimera's model strongly suggests that its main guns run at least half the length of the ship, making each of them take up more space than a mjolnirbeam.

Assuming, of course, that radiation and stability weren't the issues.

Those beams surpass the Mjolnir beam in every respect except refire rate - and for good reason.

If the Chimera design were intended to fire its beams every seven seconds it would not have the defenses or heatsink capacity it does.

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True. Although even if the reason were hurr durr command is dumb, it would be far from the dumbest thing command has done.

People who think Command is dumb need to pay more attention and go play Windmills. Command is rarely if ever dumb.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 10, 2011, 02:50:42 pm
Command is rarely if ever dumb.
This is my point, in-universe Command has probably thought of all the simple solutions but decided against using them for one reason or another. They're not idiots.

Not that it's Command's mission to be designing ships, but my point still stands.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 02:53:05 pm
The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 03:15:32 pm
While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity.

Have you seen how many hit points a Mjolnir has? I'll stay here while you go look it up.

Now you're seriously suggesting that stringing that thing together with armor, propulsion, reactors, heat sinks, radiation cladding, crew spaces, more armor, armor (remember, the base Mjolnir is fragile as hell) is going to end up the size of a cruiser?

I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels. At worst we'd be dealing with a large and easily-destroyed beam subsystem, and the the GTCv Mjolnirmobile wouldn't be the first FS2 ship to suffer from that problem (I'm thinking of the Hatshepsut and most glaringly the Ravana).

People who think Command is dumb need to pay more attention and go play Windmills. Command is rarely if ever dumb.

Haven't gotten around to Windmills yet, but I intend to play it. As for command being dumb...well, the Shivan cargo incident in FS1 is forgivable. Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Edit: And the fact that we can all agree there are probably some radiation/stability issues going on that aren't mentioned in-game makes this all rather academic.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 03:19:31 pm
I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels.

Ever designed a 'Mech in Battletech? Want to fit an oversized gun and make it work in the corvette frame, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Either you cut armor or you cut endurance. Something's got to give - either you end up with a fragile corvette or a slow, unsustainable corvette.

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Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Given the information available and the tradeoffs there, I would make that decision in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 03:41:40 pm
I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels.

Ever designed a 'Mech in Battletech? Want to fit an oversized gun and make it work in the corvette frame, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Either you cut armor or you cut endurance. Something's got to give - either you end up with a fragile corvette or a slow, unsustainable corvette.

Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

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Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Given the information available and the tradeoffs there, I would make that decision in a heartbeat.

They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

Then again, maybe Command knew that the Phoenicia had an invulnerability SEXP, but for their own reasons decided not to tell her captain. :p
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 03:44:45 pm
Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

The Mjolnir is huge compared to a TerSlash emitter. Its size is a compelling argument. (I should know; BP has internal fluff about warship design and component size, so I pretty much get to dictate the rules here.  ;))

You keep invoking these radiation/explodiness problems, but there are far more parsimonious explanations I've already presented right here  - "The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)"

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They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

I'd still do it in a heartbeat. Total victory over the immediate Shivan threat on one hand, the loss of the GTVA's biggest warship and probably their core systems on the other? Anything to slow it down. In some outcomes on that mission, fractions of a second matter.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 03:56:42 pm
Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

The Mjolnir is huge compared to a TerSlash emitter. Its size is a compelling argument. (I should know; BP has internal fluff about warship design and component size, so I pretty much get to dictate the rules here.  ;))

Then you win. ;)

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They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

I'd still do it in a heartbeat. Total victory over the immediate Shivan threat on one hand, the loss of the GTVA's biggest warship and probably their core systems on the other? Anything to slow it down.

I agree. Given the stakes, I'd also sacrifice the Phoenicia if I thought it might buy Alpha Wing Alpha One so much as an extra second.

However, given the previous recon missions and fleet engagements, I'd be under no illusions that putting the Phoenicia in front of that node would accomplish anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 03:58:10 pm
That's easy to say in hindsight, but coming up to the decision, I'd take the chance. It's only a few thousand people and one destroyer.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 04:20:12 pm
That's easy to say in hindsight, but coming up to the decision, I'd take the chance. It's only a few thousand people and one destroyer.

Perhaps, although I still think they had all the information the needed to know how that was going to go down. The rules of the universe are that capital ships don't need to slow down or stop in order to fire their beam cannons. Putting a second Colossus in front of the node wouldn't have delayed the Sathanas.

And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful. ;)

To respond to your edit in which you restate a point you made earlier:

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You keep invoking these radiation/explodiness problems, but there are far more parsimonious explanations I've already presented right here  - "The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)"

Sitting outside a node: Given that a node is much larger than a corvette or cruiser, the mjolnir still relies on the mission designer to put any hostile ships short of destroyers exactly where it can hit them. Sans helpful fredding, the non-homing mjolnir sucks at its intended role.

Very narrow engagement window: The mjolnir's linear fire axis is less of a limitation, not more of one, if it's mounted on something with engines.

Blowing all its reaction mass: Not sure what you mean here. Are you using reaction mass to mean fuel/power supply? Or are you saying beams in BP-canon have appreciable recoil that some sort of reaction mass would be needed to counter-balance?

Wasting its own power systems: I put this under stability concerns.

Irradiating itself in the process: Sounds like radiation to me! ;)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 04:25:26 pm
I have no idea what point you're trying to make any more about the Mjolnir. By engagement window I'm talking timespan. A Mjolnir isn't expected to last for weeks or months on its own. It's basically a giant beam emitter, far larger than those mounted on most warships, with zero survivability if it's actually attacked.

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And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful. ;)

It would be a pretty hilarious line except for, you know, the vast differences in what's at stake between the situation and what you mentioned. When the GTVA had every reason to believe the future of their species depended on getting 4 beam cannons taken out in a very narrow window of time, well, that crew knew what they signed up for.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 04:27:22 pm
And in fact there's a passage in War in Heaven that talks about how much more willing the GTVA is to spend lives to get the job done. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, just that they're far more pragmatic.

ed: and yeah reaction mass for the plasma weapon - it's essentially a gigantic magnetically confined plasma jet, it needs ammunition.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 10, 2011, 04:33:04 pm
I have no idea what point you're trying to make any more about the Mjolnir.

Hell, neither do I at this point. We've both postulated enough workable reasons not to put the mjolnir on a ship that there's no real reason to debate which ones are worse.

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And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful. ;)

It would be a pretty hilarious line except for, you know, the vast differences in what's at stake between the situation and what you mentioned. When the GTVA had every reason to believe the future of their species depended on getting 4 beam cannons taken out in a very narrow window of time, well, that crew knew what they signed up for.

And in fact there's a passage in War in Heaven that talks about how much more willing the GTVA is to spend lives to get the job done. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, just that they're far more pragmatic.

Yeah, it was just something that struck me as funny as I read it, and I qualified it as such. Sorry if I'm coming across as a jackass here.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 10, 2011, 04:34:46 pm
No worries, discussion is good.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 11, 2011, 12:19:52 am
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...


Hence why they should be replaced with ULTRAs. :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 11, 2011, 12:33:33 am
The GTVA, or at least the Tevs, just don't have an advanced enough beam tech to mount meaningful beam weaponry on cruisers. Shivans, on the other hand...


Hence why they should be replaced with ULTRAs. :P

The ULTRA really cannot be used against players. It basically breaks the game.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 13, 2011, 08:51:26 am
So useless SGreens it is. :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 09:13:26 am
So useless SGreens it is. :P

The Aeolus as a package is a really effective ship in its niche. Ships need interesting weaknesses to make for interesting missions - otherwise we'd all be driving Ares with the maneuverability of a Pegasus.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 13, 2011, 09:51:51 am
So useless SGreens it is. :P

The Aeolus as a package is a really effective ship in its niche. Ships need interesting weaknesses to make for interesting missions - otherwise we'd all be driving Ares with the maneuverability of a Pegasus.

Yes, but wouldn't ULTRAs make it even better in its niche? It doesn't detract from its weak anti warship capability because it removes its anti warship cannons all together.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 09:55:39 am
Go ahead and put some ultras on there, then fly around it for a while (set it to hostile, don't forget to beam-free, play on insane).

Then tell me how that would make for fun gameplay. I'm not ruling out some kind of upgrade to those weapons, but the ultra AAA is a weapon the player can literally do nothing about except stay away from, and unlike the regular AAA it is very hard to stay away from. (It's hitscan, pierces shields, and cannot be dodged, and it does insane DPS at really long ranges).
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 13, 2011, 10:06:00 am
Wasn't the ULTRA only ingame, because otherwise the corvette in "A Game of TAG" wouldn't stand a chance?
So what?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Hades on June 13, 2011, 10:08:12 am
Wasn't the ULTRA only ingame, because otherwise the corvette in "A Game of TAG" wouldn't stand a chance?
So what?
It was also used on the Colossus in High Noon, I believe.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 10:33:37 am
Since the ULTRA does far more DPS than the SGreen (and therefore presumably transfers more energy), there's a decent argument to be made that the Aeolus's powerplant and/or heatsinks would be unable to support it.

Still, the GTVA would probably be well-served to designate the Aeolus as a dedicated anti-strikecraft ship and replace the SGreen's with another pair of AAAf/h's. That would give it pretty much the same anti-fighter armament as the Deimos, minus half the hitpoints and the much-maligned-but-better-than-SGreens TerSlashes.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 13, 2011, 11:04:24 am
I'm sure you would want dual SGreens if you chance upon a Sanctus than two AAAfs, or like that mission where the Akula and Ranvir got blown up.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 13, 2011, 11:09:28 am
Uhhh, if they are replacing the SGreens with AAAf's, those AAA-beams are badly placed. And it doesn't make any sense to replace because they can only fire on their directions, unlike the usual turreted ones. Anyway, the cruiser is then unable to defend itself against an UEF cruiser.
In this case, Destiny's right.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 11:10:16 am
Uhhh, if they are replacing the SGreens with AAAf's, those AAA-beams are badly placed. And it doesn't make any sense to replace because the they can only fire in their directions, unlike the usual turreted ones.

I thought those turrets had at least decent fields of fire, am I wrong? (i could be wrong)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 13, 2011, 11:21:07 am
Uhhh, if they are replacing the SGreens with AAAf's, those AAA-beams are badly placed. And it doesn't make any sense to replace because the they can only fire in their directions, unlike the usual turreted ones.

I thought those turrets had at least decent fields of fire, am I wrong? (i could be wrong)
I've never seen an Aeolus firing the SGreens backwards, downwards, port or starboard. They are firing  to the direction the Aeolus is facing.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 11:25:03 am
Uhhh, if they are replacing the SGreens with AAAf's, those AAA-beams are badly placed. And it doesn't make any sense to replace because the they can only fire in their directions, unlike the usual turreted ones.

I thought those turrets had at least decent fields of fire, am I wrong? (i could be wrong)
I've never seen an Aeolus firing the SGreens backwards, downwards, port or starboard. They are firing  to the direction the Aeolus is facing.

I'm pretty sure they can fire significantly off axis.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 13, 2011, 11:26:12 am
I'm pretty sure having seen SGreens fire quite upwards in Post Meridian, thanks to me having extensively playtested the coop version.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on June 13, 2011, 11:27:28 am
Or you could put TerPulse on these turrets, making them a verstile and very effective weapon, tought not quite as game breaking as the ULTRA-AAA.

Gotta try that when I get home.

EDIT - yes, I also think the Aeolus has a good vertical up FoF, but I'm not so sure about the sides.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 13, 2011, 11:34:22 am
It's 160 degrees. "check hull" is on in BP.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 13, 2011, 11:36:50 am
I'm pretty sure having seen SGreens fire quite upwards in Post Meridian, thanks to me having extensively playtested the coop version.
Yes, quite upwards, but that's the dead end.

I've tested it, the cannons have a small FOF, they can fire a bit upwards, but they are harmless if you just fly over the cruiser (despite the other turrets), they can't fire backwards. And Ijust sit there with my Ulysses next to one of those cannons.
These turrets are supposed to be forward beam cannons, not AAA beams.

Tadaaa! (no turrets despite the beamcannons replaced by AAA's)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9739/asadk.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/asadk.png/)
Am I the only one who tested it in FRED?

Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 12:01:31 pm
I'm sure you would want dual SGreens if you chance upon a Sanctus than two AAAfs, or like that mission where the Akula and Ranvir got blown up.

I think you're underestimating just how much the SGreen sucks. It doesn't even do twice the sustained damage of the AAAf, and every capital ship that isn't a Fenris has enough hitpoints that the relatively high volley damage isn't worth much. The Aeolus is an anti-fighter platform with some pathetic anti-cap beams tacked on as an afterthought, and when it does kill a warship, it does it with flak. The Aeolus is amazing in its primary role. If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.

As for the field of fire issues, yeah, it's not great. However, a direct frontal approach is pretty much the Aeolus's only anti-fighter blindspot right now.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 12:03:09 pm
Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?

Why not replace all TerSlash with BGreens?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 13, 2011, 12:09:28 pm
Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?

Why not replace all TerSlash with BGreens?
Because of imbalancing?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 12:09:55 pm
Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?

Why not replace all TerSlash with BGreens?

2nd edition Hathesput destroyers have BFReds on them, but are hard to make, so there are only two of them ever made.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 12:10:10 pm
Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?

Why not replace all TerSlash with BGreens?
Because of imbalancing?

 :nod:
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 13, 2011, 12:10:46 pm
I think you're underestimating just how much the SGreen sucks. It doesn't even do twice the sustained damage of the AAAf, and every capital ship that isn't a Fenris has enough hitpoints that the relatively high volley damage isn't worth much. The Aeolus is an anti-fighter platform with some pathetic anti-cap beams tacked on as an afterthought,
Every Cruiser is akin to an anti-fighter platform with crap beams tacked on unless you're Shivan, then it's a 'meh' Corvette killer with crap anti-fighter coverage or a wtfhax Destroyer killer with the same crap anti-fighter coverage.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 12:17:59 pm
Well, all Terran cruisers. The Vasudans don't screw around with anti-cap beams on their cruisers at all. Yeah, the Mentu gets a lot of crap over its weapon placement, but "doesn't mount crappy beams" isn't one of the big complaints. And the Aten is just horrible, but cursory anti-capital capability wouldn't solve its problems.

The fact that the SVas is miles ahead of the SGreen and the SRed does leave the Vasudans looking rather silly, though.

And don't diss the Rakshasa. That thing will fire its ventral SAAA straight up through its hull to kill you. :p
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 13, 2011, 12:22:35 pm
Why not replacing all Terran Turret's on the Aeolus-cruisers and the Deimos corvettes with STerPulses?

Why not replace all TerSlash with BGreens?
Because of imbalancing?

 :nod:
Deimos-corvettes with BGreens would make Blade Itself really difficult....
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on June 13, 2011, 12:25:48 pm
Every Cruiser is akin to an anti-fighter platform with crap beams tacked on unless you're Shivan, then it's a 'meh' Corvette killer with crap anti-fighter coverage or a wtfhax Destroyer killer with the same crap anti-fighter coverage.
That. And retail vasudan cruiser don't even have a single anti-cap beam.

Also, I did some test with the TerPulse. It does give the Aeolus a good punch against warships, but as expected its ani-fighter capabilities take quite a boost as well.

EDIT - ninja'ed about vasudan cruisers
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 13, 2011, 12:30:07 pm
I'm sure you would want dual SGreens if you chance upon a Sanctus than two AAAfs, or like that mission where the Akula and Ranvir got blown up.

I think you're underestimating just how much the SGreen sucks. It doesn't even do twice the sustained damage of the AAAf, and every capital ship that isn't a Fenris has enough hitpoints that the relatively high volley damage isn't worth much. The Aeolus is an anti-fighter platform with some pathetic anti-cap beams tacked on as an afterthought, and when it does kill a warship, it does it with flak. The Aeolus is amazing in its primary role. If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.
I do not get why you like using anti-fighter beams instead of an anti-ship beam against a ship. Dual SGreens have a range of 4k and can deal out 5776 damage plus potentially killing a turret/subsystem before entering range to bathe them in flak fire. Depending on the circumstances the dual SGreens might be able to fire again before the target approaches 1.5k and eventually close enough for bath time. From what I see the BP GTVA doctrine operates on combined arms. Pair up with a Deimos, let the Deimos do the hull slagging while you provide fire support with SGreens and anti-air with your flaks unless you want to risk getting friendly fire by the Deimos.

Same applies with the Hyperion and the new post-Capella corvettes. The Hyperion has tons of blind spots anyway so w/e.

All my speculation anyway because SGreens have terribad recharge rates, but not that it matters since you're being fire support.

Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 12:38:26 pm
From what I see the BP GTVA doctrine operates on combined arms.

I completely agree. Pair the Aeolus with something that is actually good at fighting capships, and spec the Aeolus to be even better at what it's already good at. No reason to lug around SGreens for their dubious benefits in case you run into a Sanctus if you're going to be deployed alongside a Chimaera anyways.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Hades on June 13, 2011, 12:42:15 pm
If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.
Not really. The SBlues have a five second faster charge, which is still 40 seconds between firing, and hardly if any damage boost compared to the sgreen.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 13, 2011, 12:43:36 pm
If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.
Not really. The SBlues have a five second faster charge, which is still 40 seconds between firing, and hardly if any damage boost compared to the sgreen.

SBlues have almost double the sustained DPS which is a reasonably substantial improvement over the SGreen.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 13, 2011, 12:55:05 pm
If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.
Not really. The SBlues have a five second faster charge, which is still 40 seconds between firing, and hardly if any damage boost compared to the sgreen.

SBlues have almost double the sustained DPS which is a reasonably substantial improvement over the SGreen.

Plus a substantial range improvement.

My point is that, with or without SGreens, the most important thing for a lone Aeolus to have if it runs into a hostile warship is its subspace drive.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Droid803 on June 13, 2011, 11:07:25 pm
If you want a cruiser that can (kind of) take care of itself in all situations, the Hyperion is your best bet.
Not really. The SBlues have a five second faster charge, which is still 40 seconds between firing, and hardly if any damage boost compared to the sgreen.

SBlues have almost double the sustained DPS which is a reasonably substantial improvement over the SGreen.

Plus a substantial range improvement.

My point is that, with or without SGreens, the most important thing for a lone Aeolus to have if it runs into a hostile warship is its subspace drive.

Implying that it isn't already.
Seriously, SGreens suck. They're absolutely trash pieces of **** that you cannot understate how much they utterly fail at doing sustained damage. You could do more with a single SUBACH.
If you replaced the SGreens with ULTRA-AAA's it'll actually do MORE sustained DPS vs capships at the same range!

The only thing SGreens have going for them is that you can finish off Corvettes and Destroyers with it.
And those warships have so much HP that your burst damage will never get anything done due to your absolutely abyssmal, horrid, refire time of three quarters of a minute of doing absolutely jack ****.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 14, 2011, 05:49:20 am
Lets be ridiculous: Replace them with SVas^^
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Ravenholme on June 14, 2011, 06:04:07 am
I have to admit, replacing the Aeolus' SGreen with an AAA beam makes sense to me, especially with the newer ones in production. It's an Escort Cruiser who's forte is swatting fighters - it's a useless Anti-cap cruiser, so that SGreen is basically a waste of reactor power when it could be performing it's role even more efficiently.

The only time that SGreen has been useful is when I've accidentally flown into it.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 14, 2011, 06:21:23 am
Hey. Why don't they just modify the SGreens to fire at fighters? :P
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on June 14, 2011, 06:29:10 am
Still wouldn't be that effective with two fighters killed every 45 seconds :)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 14, 2011, 06:30:24 am
Guess not. SGreens really are useless. Still, it doesn't make the Aeolus any less formidable and giving it Ultras would be kind of un-fun. I think we've moved past one hit kill enemy weapons. It'd be like the snipers in Halo 2.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Fury on June 14, 2011, 06:35:23 am
Screw Aeolus. I'd be more concerned with performance of the Hyperion, the supposedly next-gen cruiser which honestly doesn't have that big of an advantage over Aeolus.

Note to BP devs: Consider replacing blob turrets on Hyperion with terran version of VEF.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: LordPomposity on June 14, 2011, 10:31:03 am
My point is that, with or without SGreens, the most important thing for a lone Aeolus to have if it runs into a hostile warship is its subspace drive.

Implying that it isn't already.

I did say "with or without". ;)
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 14, 2011, 11:36:40 am
Note to BP devs: Consider replacing blob turrets on Hyperion with terran version of VEF.
What is VEF?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Kosh on June 15, 2011, 11:29:20 am
Screw Aeolus. I'd be more concerned with performance of the Hyperion, the supposedly next-gen cruiser which honestly doesn't have that big of an advantage over Aeolus.

Note to BP devs: Consider replacing blob turrets on Hyperion with terran version of VEF.


The Hyperion's problems are more because of the model itself, as I recall the FS2 GVC Mentu had similar problems.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 15, 2011, 02:35:18 pm
Note to BP devs: Consider replacing blob turrets on Hyperion with terran version of VEF.
What is VEF?
Vasudan Energy Flak maybe
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 15, 2011, 08:32:32 pm
Has someone actually tested what would happen, if a Narayana actually fires only its missiles at an Aeolus with ULTRAs?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: -Norbert- on June 17, 2011, 06:16:29 am
I just read up on the weapons in the tech room again and found a good reason not to use the ultra AAA on the Aeolus.
The tech describtion states that the additional firepower and range of it come by building in a little reactor into the weapon. Sounds good, but it comes with a rather massive downside. To fit that reactor in, you have to take out any and all targeting systems and completely slave the weapon into some external targeting system like the TAGs... or I suppose you could let a gunner aim it manually, but then it would need to become much more inaccurate than it is now.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 17, 2011, 06:27:15 am
BTW: Tested it in Fred, an Aeolus doesn't stand a chance against Apo-spam^^
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 17, 2011, 06:43:00 am
Has someone actually tested what would happen, if a Narayana actually fires only its missiles at an Aeolus with ULTRAs?
Completely nullified the Narayana's missiles, and held out decently against TWO Narayanas.

All ships with Balls of Steele AI, of course.

I just read up on the weapons in the tech room again and found a good reason not to use the ultra AAA on the Aeolus.
The tech describtion states that the additional firepower and range of it come by building in a little reactor into the weapon. Sounds good, but it comes with a rather massive downside. To fit that reactor in, you have to take out any and all targeting systems and completely slave the weapon into some external targeting system like the TAGs... or I suppose you could let a gunner aim it manually, but then it would need to become much more inaccurate than it is now.
I wonder why BP canon does it that way because there's something called sensor and weapons subsystems...
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 17, 2011, 07:32:34 am
Strange, one Narayana against one Aeolus with FOUR Ultras...and the Aeolus was simply wasted...
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 17, 2011, 07:48:47 am
I wonder why BP canon does it that way because there's something called sensor and weapons subsystems...

...which have no effect on the accuracy of beams, and never have....
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 17, 2011, 07:53:31 am
If they did I wouldn't waste my time on missions disarming ships. I'd just pop those subsystems and bugger off to kill fighters.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Snail on June 17, 2011, 09:40:38 am
Well the weapons subsystem does affect the accuracy of blob turrets. Which is a negligible difference, really.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 17, 2011, 09:52:30 am
It does help bombing a lot, since blobs are the main source of bomb intercepting. This is however, in most cases, not really worth the effort.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Commander Zane on June 17, 2011, 10:00:53 am
Negligible? Between intercepting four out of every five of your wingmen's bombs with the weapons subsystem intact and stray-shotting one out of every 15 bombs without, I'd say it's a huge difference.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Qent on June 17, 2011, 11:01:22 am
Without a weapons subsystem, turrets won't target bombs at all. So the only shots that will hit are intended for another target.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 17, 2011, 11:33:07 am
Qent has a big point there. Instead of manually blowing up each turret on the enemy ship you could just knock out the weapons subsystem so more bombs hitting the ship in a shorter amount of time.

Strange, one Narayana against one Aeolus with FOUR Ultras...and the Aeolus was simply wasted...
What are you doing with the Aeolus? My Aeolus had only it's SGreens replaced with Ultras and completely blew the Narayana's missile screen off the face of Neptune, yet yours with four Ultras was blown up...?

Tip: You do not put the Aeolus near the Narayana or tell the Aeolus to attack the Narayana when it only has Ultras.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Dragon on June 17, 2011, 11:40:36 am
Also, Crizza, did you set ships to use Balls of Stelle AI (better use Little Devil, BoS makes turret ROF go beyond normal values) and locked the main guns on Narayana?
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: General Battuta on June 17, 2011, 11:45:05 am
Little Devil is probably a bit excessive.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 17, 2011, 11:47:19 am
The Narayana was disabled and the Aeolus was going straight towards her broadside, AI was BoS, sure, it intercepted a good number of Apos, but when it was too close, the shokwaves did their job.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: Destiny on June 17, 2011, 12:43:21 pm
IIRC, BP-General is the best 'normal' AI used for normal gameplay isn't it, Battuta?
the Aeolus was going straight towards her broadside
Well there's your problem.
Title: Re: Replace SGreens with ULTRA anti-fighter beams
Post by: crizza on June 17, 2011, 12:49:28 pm
So what? Should I watch the Narayana attacking an Aeolus over 14km?^^