[Commander Zane]

Given the recharge time it's likely.

[LordPomposity]

Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus. 

Of course, the easy way out of this is to say that the GTVA engineers pushed the Mjolnirbeam's performance to levels that are way too dangerous to be mounted on a manned ship.

[Dragon]

Note, it could have some drawback not mentioned in game (like, it generates so much heat and radiation that any crew would get fried. That would also help explain rotating bits as a radiator). This could be the reason Terran beams can't be more powerfull. While their power could be increased, it would also make them emit too much radiation to be safely used. Neither Shivans nor RBCs would have problem with it, so they have better beams.

[Snail]

What Dragon said. I have a feeling the Mjolnirs were uber expensive, very high-maintenance, like they could only be fired a couple times (ie. 1 sortie duration) before they had to be retired or gutted, or they had some devilishly complicated cooling system, or radiation issues, or were powered by kittens, whatever. Something that precluded it being outfitted on capital ships.

I mean there has to be a reason besides hurr durr command is dumb that they didn't fit them on more ships.

[LordPomposity]

Curse you for ninjaing my edit! 

[General Battuta]

Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus. 

It'd more likely come out the size of a corvette with the hitpoints of a freighter.

[LordPomposity]

I mean there has to be a reason besides hurr durr command is dumb that they didn't fit them on more ships.

True. Although even if the reason were hurr durr command is dumb, it would be far from the dumbest thing command has done.

Yep, the fixed Mjolnirbeam does 2350 sustained DPS when recharge time is factored in, nearly double the LRBGreen's 1194 (but still well behind the BFRed's 8085).

Slap some engines, crew compartments, and a few defensive turrets on a Mjolnir, and you have something about the size of an Aeolus. 

It'd more likely come out the size of a corvette with the hitpoints of a freighter.

While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity. Hell, the Chimera's model strongly suggests that its main guns run at least half the length of the ship, making each of them take up more space than a mjolnirbeam.

Assuming, of course, that radiation and stability weren't the issues.

[General Battuta]

While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity.

Have you seen how many hit points a Mjolnir has? I'll stay here while you go look it up.

Now you're seriously suggesting that stringing that thing together with armor, propulsion, reactors, heat sinks, radiation cladding, crew spaces, more armor, fuel, reaction mass for the beams, damage control material, supplies for long deployment, and more armor (remember, the base Mjolnir is fragile as hell) is going to end up the size of a cruiser?

Hell, the Chimera's model strongly suggests that its main guns run at least half the length of the ship, making each of them take up more space than a mjolnirbeam.

Assuming, of course, that radiation and stability weren't the issues.

Those beams surpass the Mjolnir beam in every respect except refire rate - and for good reason.

If the Chimera design were intended to fire its beams every seven seconds it would not have the defenses or heatsink capacity it does.

True. Although even if the reason were hurr durr command is dumb, it would be far from the dumbest thing command has done.

People who think Command is dumb need to pay more attention and go play Windmills. Command is rarely if ever dumb.

[Snail]

Command is rarely if ever dumb.

This is my point, in-universe Command has probably thought of all the simple solutions but decided against using them for one reason or another. They're not idiots.

Not that it's Command's mission to be designing ships, but my point still stands.

[General Battuta]

The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)

[LordPomposity]

While saying it would be cruiser-sized may have been going too far, it seems highly unlikely that a mjolnirbeam would take up enough space on a corvette to compromise structural integrity.

Have you seen how many hit points a Mjolnir has? I'll stay here while you go look it up.

Now you're seriously suggesting that stringing that thing together with armor, propulsion, reactors, heat sinks, radiation cladding, crew spaces, more armor, armor (remember, the base Mjolnir is fragile as hell) is going to end up the size of a cruiser?

I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels. At worst we'd be dealing with a large and easily-destroyed beam subsystem, and the the GTCv Mjolnirmobile wouldn't be the first FS2 ship to suffer from that problem (I'm thinking of the Hatshepsut and most glaringly the Ravana).

People who think Command is dumb need to pay more attention and go play Windmills. Command is rarely if ever dumb.

Haven't gotten around to Windmills yet, but I intend to play it. As for command being dumb...well, the Shivan cargo incident in FS1 is forgivable. Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Edit: And the fact that we can all agree there are probably some radiation/stability issues going on that aren't mentioned in-game makes this all rather academic.

[General Battuta]

I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels.

Ever designed a 'Mech in Battletech? Want to fit an oversized gun and make it work in the corvette frame, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Either you cut armor or you cut endurance. Something's got to give - either you end up with a fragile corvette or a slow, unsustainable corvette.

Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Given the information available and the tradeoffs there, I would make that decision in a heartbeat.

[LordPomposity]

I already conceded that I was probably wrong about cruiser-sized mounting. However, mounting a mjolnir in something corvette-sized isn't going to magically drop the corvette's hitpoints down to freighter levels.

Ever designed a 'Mech in Battletech? Want to fit an oversized gun and make it work in the corvette frame, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Either you cut armor or you cut endurance. Something's got to give - either you end up with a fragile corvette or a slow, unsustainable corvette.

Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

Throwing a Hecate in front of a Sathanas to "distract" it, and then blowing off in rapid succession everyone who points out what a stupid idea it is, seems to point to a fairly large cognitive problem.

Given the information available and the tradeoffs there, I would make that decision in a heartbeat.

They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

Then again, maybe Command knew that the Phoenicia had an invulnerability SEXP, but for their own reasons decided not to tell her captain.

[General Battuta]

Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

The Mjolnir is huge compared to a TerSlash emitter. Its size is a compelling argument. (I should know; BP has internal fluff about warship design and component size, so I pretty much get to dictate the rules here.  )

You keep invoking these radiation/explodiness problems, but there are far more parsimonious explanations I've already presented right here  - "The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)"

They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

I'd still do it in a heartbeat. Total victory over the immediate Shivan threat on one hand, the loss of the GTVA's biggest warship and probably their core systems on the other? Anything to slow it down. In some outcomes on that mission, fractions of a second matter.

[LordPomposity]

Yes--if you fit an oversize gun onto it. Comparing the Mjolnir and Deimos models, the Mjolnir isn't all that oversized. The assumption of radiation and explodiness problems make for compelling arguments against doing it.

The Mjolnir is huge compared to a TerSlash emitter. Its size is a compelling argument. (I should know; BP has internal fluff about warship design and component size, so I pretty much get to dictate the rules here.  )

Then you win.

They had scans of the Sathanas's weaponry. They'd seen it chew through allied warships already. There was ample evidence to suggest that the Phoenicia wouldn't survive a single volley, let alone actually make any contribution to the fight.

I'd still do it in a heartbeat. Total victory over the immediate Shivan threat on one hand, the loss of the GTVA's biggest warship and probably their core systems on the other? Anything to slow it down.

I agree. Given the stakes, I'd also sacrifice the Phoenicia if I thought it might buy Alpha Wing Alpha One so much as an extra second.

However, given the previous recon missions and fleet engagements, I'd be under no illusions that putting the Phoenicia in front of that node would accomplish anything of the sort.

[General Battuta]

That's easy to say in hindsight, but coming up to the decision, I'd take the chance. It's only a few thousand people and one destroyer.

[LordPomposity]

That's easy to say in hindsight, but coming up to the decision, I'd take the chance. It's only a few thousand people and one destroyer.

Perhaps, although I still think they had all the information the needed to know how that was going to go down. The rules of the universe are that capital ships don't need to slow down or stop in order to fire their beam cannons. Putting a second Colossus in front of the node wouldn't have delayed the Sathanas.

And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful.

To respond to your edit in which you restate a point you made earlier:

You keep invoking these radiation/explodiness problems, but there are far more parsimonious explanations I've already presented right here  - "The Mjolnir as we saw it had one purpose: to sit outside a node and fire its beams frantically in a very narrow engagement window, probably blowing all its reaction mass, wasting its own power systems, and irradiating itself in the process. That's just not a formula for success on a warship. (Warships also need subspace drives - forgot about that.)"

Sitting outside a node: Given that a node is much larger than a corvette or cruiser, the mjolnir still relies on the mission designer to put any hostile ships short of destroyers exactly where it can hit them. Sans helpful fredding, the non-homing mjolnir sucks at its intended role.

Very narrow engagement window: The mjolnir's linear fire axis is less of a limitation, not more of one, if it's mounted on something with engines.

Blowing all its reaction mass: Not sure what you mean here. Are you using reaction mass to mean fuel/power supply? Or are you saying beams in BP-canon have appreciable recoil that some sort of reaction mass would be needed to counter-balance?

Wasting its own power systems: I put this under stability concerns.

Irradiating itself in the process: Sounds like radiation to me!

[General Battuta]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make any more about the Mjolnir. By engagement window I'm talking timespan. A Mjolnir isn't expected to last for weeks or months on its own. It's basically a giant beam emitter, far larger than those mounted on most warships, with zero survivability if it's actually attacked.

And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful.

It would be a pretty hilarious line except for, you know, the vast differences in what's at stake between the situation and what you mentioned. When the GTVA had every reason to believe the future of their species depended on getting 4 beam cannons taken out in a very narrow window of time, well, that crew knew what they signed up for.

[General Battuta]

And in fact there's a passage in War in Heaven that talks about how much more willing the GTVA is to spend lives to get the job done. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, just that they're far more pragmatic.

ed: and yeah reaction mass for the plasma weapon - it's essentially a gigantic magnetically confined plasma jet, it needs ammunition.

[LordPomposity]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make any more about the Mjolnir.

Hell, neither do I at this point. We've both postulated enough workable reasons not to put the mjolnir on a ship that there's no real reason to debate which ones are worse.

And, while I understand the vast differences in what's at stake between that situation and what I'm about to mention, "only a few thousand people and one destroyer" is on the surface a pretty hilarious line coming from one of the designers of a campaign in which a war has gone on for a year and a half without a single destroyer loss, because both sides are so careful.

It would be a pretty hilarious line except for, you know, the vast differences in what's at stake between the situation and what you mentioned. When the GTVA had every reason to believe the future of their species depended on getting 4 beam cannons taken out in a very narrow window of time, well, that crew knew what they signed up for.

And in fact there's a passage in War in Heaven that talks about how much more willing the GTVA is to spend lives to get the job done. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, just that they're far more pragmatic.

Yeah, it was just something that struck me as funny as I read it, and I qualified it as such. Sorry if I'm coming across as a jackass here.