Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Goober5000 on November 03, 2011, 11:43:29 pm
-
Coptic Christian Student Murdered By Classmates for Wearing a Cross
(AINA) -- In mid-October Egyptian media published news of an altercation between Muslim and Christian students over a classroom seat at a school in Mallawi, Minya province. The altercation lead to the murder of a Christian student. The media portrayed the incident as non-sectarian. However, Copts Without Borders, a Coptic news website, refuted this version and was first to report that the Christian student was murdered because he was wearing a crucifix.
"We wanted to believe the official version," said activist Mark Ebeid, "because the Coptic version was a catastrophe, as it would take persecution of Christians also to schools." He blamed the church in Mallawi for keeping quiet about the incident.
Today the parents of the 17-year-old Christian student Ayman Nabil Labib, broke their silence, confirming that their son was murdered on October 16, in "cold blood because he refused to take off his crucifix as ordered by his Muslim teacher." Nabil Labib, the father, said in a taped video interview with Copts United NGO, that his son had a cross tattooed on his wrist as per Coptic tradition, as well as another cross which he wore under his clothes.
Both parents confirmed that Ayman's classmates, who were present during the assault and whom they met at the hospital and during the funeral, said that while Ayman was in the classroom he was told to cover up his tattooed wrist cross. He refused and defiantly got out the second cross which he wore under his shirt. "The teacher nearly chocked by son and some Muslim students joined in the beating," said his mother.
...
(Rest of the article here (http://www.aina.org/news/20111030133621.htm))
Rest in peace good sir, and may your witness bear much fruit.
-
damn. uncool.
r.i.p. your strength of belief is inspiring
-
I'm sure there are people who get killed because they wore the wrong shoes, or the wrong color shirt, or because the killer was pissed, so this does not surprise me.
-
yes, kill each other, everything is falling into place.
-
Yet another example why practicing religion should be abolished globally. It does more harm than good regardless of what religion it is. At least killing people for oil or stealing a purse makes sense. This does not.
-
Yet another example why practicing religion should be abolished globally. It does more harm than good regardless of what religion it is. At least killing people for oil or stealing a purse makes sense. This does not.
...so it's the kid's fault for having religious beliefs, not the fault of those who beat him to death? Next you'll tell me that we should abolish ethnicities, because killing people over them makes equally as little sense.
-
I've got to agree with Mongoose on this one. The only way you can blame this on religion would be if the Muslims had also had to remove their symbols of worship and the Coptic was acting like he shouldn't have to.
Since it is doubtful that this is what happened, it pretty much seems like axe grinding to blame it on all religion.
-
...so it's the kid's fault for having religious beliefs, not the fault of those who beat him to death? Next you'll tell me that we should abolish ethnicities, because killing people over them makes equally as little sense.
I didn't say that.
It is the teacher's and the other students fault for being muslims and committing the act of violence in name of their religion. The kid is at fault for not complying with the teacher's request and that is what ultimately led to his own death. Both of these acts were carried out in name of their own faith and religion.
Hence, both parties are at fault for being religious idiots which led to the kid's death.
it pretty much seems like axe grinding to blame it on all religion.
That is more or less correct and I'm not going to argue over it. A sizable chunk of violence now and in the past has been committed in name of one religion or another. I'm tired of it. Christians aren't any better than others.
-
Chalk it up to another pointless death over something insignificant. It's unacceptable, but people have been killed over far less
-
Wow, this shows how incredibly naive people can be. I mean hey, I don't advocate violence or anything, but if people think that they won't get a beating or worse for not complying when the teacher who's just doing his/her job asks them to stop waving a cross around in an egyptian classroom, then seriously they've totally lost their grip on reality. Do they really think people have suddenly stopped being violent or easily provoked? That takes some massive ignorance and denial of facts.
I wonder why we aren't seeing those kind of comments in this particular case.
-
Remember folks, these are those loving, forgiving and tolerant religions we are told about. They all seem to act like this when they think no-ones looking (well, not all if I'm strictly honest - but oddly ernough, it seems to be those that make the most of the 'power', 'wisdom' and 'love' of God that seem to be the first to resort to doing His thinking and judging for Him.
'God made us all different for He is mighty and has Plans'
'Just don't be too different though, or we'll kill you'.
-
Related:
The persecution and outright murder of Egypt's Coptic Christians is the one narrative that doesn't seem to be getting airtime concerning Egypt's ousting of its former government.
Say what you will about dictators, but Egypt's at least protected a number of the country's religious minorities, including the Copts.
-
let me quite a wise man*
"all your bad and all your good, they'd kill each other if they could!"
-oderus urungus
*by man i actually mean scumdog from the planet scumdoggia*
-
Remember folks, these are those loving, forgiving and tolerant religions we are told about. They all seem to act like this when they think no-ones looking (well, not all if I'm strictly honest - but oddly ernough, it seems to be those that make the most of the 'power', 'wisdom' and 'love' of God that seem to be the first to resort to doing His thinking and judging for Him.
'God made us all different for He is mighty and has Plans'
'Just don't be too different though, or we'll kill you'.
Well, the Jains become less and less of a danger the more extreme they become. If there ever was a "religion of peace", it's Jainism. One way I like to look at it is like this: The problem with Islam, Christianity and Judaism isn't the fundamentalists, but rather the fundamentals of the faith itself.
About the copts, well, in Egypt, they live in filthy, literally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf033rhn5kE
-
Remember folks, these are those loving, forgiving and tolerant religions we are told about. They all seem to act like this when they think no-ones looking (well, not all if I'm strictly honest - but oddly ernough, it seems to be those that make the most of the 'power', 'wisdom' and 'love' of God that seem to be the first to resort to doing His thinking and judging for Him.
'God made us all different for He is mighty and has Plans'
'Just don't be too different though, or we'll kill you'.
All organized religion is inherintly imperialistic. In many ways religion does behave like a virus. It will infest a host, usually one with a weaker strain or a vulnerable uninfested target (children, seriously ill, substance abuse addicts, etc) and proceed to hijack the machinery of the host (the mind) to conform to the specifications of its strain or substrain, and then proceed with its next directive: Self replication. Obviously some strains such as evangalism and islam are more aggressive than others and their virulance matches each strain and substrain accordingly. In addition to traditional marketing techniques, more and more virulant will resort to outright physical attacks against their competition through terrorism, bullying, and murder.
I've got to agree with Mongoose on this one. The only way you can blame this on religion would be if the Muslims had also had to remove their symbols of worship and the Coptic was acting like he shouldn't have to.
Since it is doubtful that this is what happened, it pretty much seems like axe grinding to blame it on all religion.
This is part of a much larger conflict that is brewing between coptics and muslims. Just last month there were huge riots in egypt over this stuff. Do not tell me this has nothing to do with religion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SScPUudoJPY)
-
The point is that if there were no religion they'd be fighting over ethic reasons. While I will agree that religion on the whole is the most common and most likely reason for this kind of dickwaddery, it's not the only one.
-
The point is that if there were no religion they'd be fighting over ethic reasons. While I will agree that religion on the whole is the most common and most likely reason for this kind of dickwaddery, it's not the only one.
True, there are other reasons they might be fighting and that's why each conflict needs to be taken on a case by case basis.
-
Yet another example why practicing religion should be abolished globally. It does more harm than good regardless of what religion it is. At least killing people for oil or stealing a purse makes sense. This does not.
Dear lord, the amount of bigotry towards the religious in HLP disgusts me sometimes. Usually I steer clear of threads related to religion for exactly this reason, but... reading comments like this turns my stomach.
I'm going to stop this post here before I say something I regret. I am extremely angry at the moment.
I do, however, have one question that I would really like to have answered, please:
Why do the mods tolerate this? Is this not against the board rules?
-
Thing is, when you get a thread with religion and violence in the same paragraph, it's kind of hard to keep the comparison out. Though, I'll admit, I don't quite understand how claiming religion should be abolished doesn't, in some uncomfortable way, make us just as dogmatic...
That said, so long as the comments are about religions plural and not a specific religion, it's hard to really say. Would we be more likely to lock a thread in which people were attacking Atheism? I think I'll have to sleep on that one.
For my own part, I prefer not to go into religious threads, I only do so because I'm a mod. My opinion on Religious differences and the discussion thereof is that, at least in a Forum, no-one is going to choke anyone else...
Edit : Just to add, you'll note I put a qualifier about religion in my own post, that's just me, I suppose it's not so much the existence of religion itself that I hate, it's what people are inspired, compelled and even encouraged to do in the name of religion
-
The notion that all religion could be abolished is quite silly.
-
Usually I steer clear of threads related to religion
and this is why the attitude persists, if someone is wrong, you can ignore them and let them contiue on or confront them and maybe change their mind, or the atmosphere to one hostile to them.
you are doomed to failure of course because religion does invariably lead one to making poor judgements, and often violence.
-
I do, however, have one question that I would really like to have answered, please:
Why do the mods tolerate this? Is this not against the board rules?
No, it's not. In fact:
However we ask that members respect the right of free speech. That is to say that as long as a comment isn't of a racist or sexist nature - a member has a right to say it.
You can read the original here. (http://hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=37583.0)
-
Maybe instead of abolishing religion. we change our belief that everything in this universe, living, can be sensed. Due to this nature, we can't cause harm to each other or other things.
Very much like the Life Stream in my story, Codename: Exile Fleet.
-
nice, very subtle, plug there.
why limit it to living, there are tones of non-living things I can sense, through multiple channels, you could say I can sense everything if you include indirect sensation via instrumentation that convert things I am not equipped to process into a form I am equipped to.
-
I do, however, have one question that I would really like to have answered, please:
Why do the mods tolerate this? Is this not against the board rules?
No, it's not. In fact:
However we ask that members respect the right of free speech. That is to say that as long as a comment isn't of a racist or sexist nature - a member has a right to say it.
You can read the original here. (http://hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=37583.0)
I see.
Thank you for clearing that up.
you are doomed to failure of course because religion does invariably lead one to making poor judgements, and often violence.
The same could be said of any ideology.
Every. Single. Belief. System. On. Earth. has had some violent whackjobs who did bad things in its name. You can't let their actions influence your perception of the entire group.
Blame the individual. Not the belief system.
-
yeah, I can, and do. the belief system cannot survive without perpetuating ways of thinking that lead to disaster, it is the belief system's fault. It is simply good fortune that most people are resistant enough and able to compartmentalize the damage it does to their thought process.
-
hate to say it but I'm with Nuke on this one
-
Every. Single. Belief. System. On. Earth. has had some violent whackjobs who did bad things in its name.
I have never, ever heard of someone attacking another over why crunchy peanut butter is transcendentally better than smooth. But I guess that's not really a belief system, more like a given fact.
-
I have never, ever heard of someone attacking another over why crunchy peanut butter is transcendentally better than smooth. But I guess that's not really a belief system, more like a given fact.
Permabanned!
-
yeah, smooth is obviously superior, such blatant trolling should not be tolerated.
-
if i want crunchy il just eat peanuts.
-
Yet another example why practicing religion should be abolished globally. It does more harm than good regardless of what religion it is. At least killing people for oil or stealing a purse makes sense. This does not.
Dear lord, the amount of bigotry towards the religious in HLP disgusts me sometimes. Usually I steer clear of threads related to religion for exactly this reason, but... reading comments like this turns my stomach.
I'm going to stop this post here before I say something I regret. I am extremely angry at the moment.
I do, however, have one question that I would really like to have answered, please:
Why do the mods tolerate this? Is this not against the board rules?
i allow it because:
1. im biased
2. its free speech and protected by the forum rules
3. satan told me to
if atheism was a religion (and i often find that many atheists act like just another religious group, with the same prejudices of outsiders, and tendency to protect their own, and the burning need to convert others into their fold), then what fury said would likely be one of its tenants. all religious groups (not to mention atheists) seem to have an inherent bigotry about them. they feel that are always right and everyone who isnt in agreement with them is not and is somehow less human. wherever you have an outgroup you will have discrimination and bigotry and thats just human nature. so long as humans wall themselves off into little groups, there will be violence between them. if people dont temper their beliefs with reason and understanding, you will have hatred and brutality.
if you can't figure that out then maybe you all need to get nuked.
-
wherever you have an outgroup you will have discrimination and bigotry and that's just human nature. so long as humans wall themselves off into little groups, there will be violence between them. if people don't temper their beliefs with reason and understanding, you will have hatred and brutality.
You know, a lot of religions actually teach people specifically NOT to be hateful/bigoted/violent (although with mixed success: they are, of course, fighting human nature).
I think it's wishful thinking at best to imagine these problems go away if you eliminate religion.
-
The same religion spends just as much time teaching people to be hateful/bigoted and violent though so it's hard to believe the message. It best it's a wash.
-
wherever you have an outgroup you will have discrimination and bigotry and that's just human nature. so long as humans wall themselves off into little groups, there will be violence between them. if people don't temper their beliefs with reason and understanding, you will have hatred and brutality.
You know, a lot of religions actually teach people specifically NOT to be hateful/bigoted/violent (although with mixed success: they are, of course, fighting human nature).
I think it's wishful thinking at best to imagine these problems go away if you eliminate religion.
Part of the problem is that belief systems in and of themselves are fatally flawed simply because it's a massive appeal to authority and it deliberately discourages people from thinking and questioning. I would argue because of that the systems are more prone to abuse of power.
-
Egypt is chock-full of brainwashed muslim extremists, I am not surprised such things happen at all.
About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery
When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf
-
Permabanned!
yeah, smooth is obviously superior, such blatant trolling should not be tolerated.
if i want crunchy il just eat peanuts.
Haters gonna hate.
-
weren't you banned?
-
Well I actually was eating a peanut butter sandwich when I wrote that (seriously, I'm not making that up).
I must have gotten distracted.
-
The Goddess Alhurin forgives you. ;)
-
Well I actually was eating a peanut butter sandwich when I wrote that (seriously, I'm not making that up).
I must have gotten distracted.
:|
You might be able to walk like me, talk like me, but you shall NEVER BE MAN!
and THIS!
/*points*/
THIS is why!
-
They don't call me King Louie for nothing. :p
-
Religion in my point of view was a way to 'solve' everyday questions abou their enviroment and how humans and everything around us was created, but I guess if there is a light side there must a dark side.
In this case the Martyrdom in Mallawi
-
The point is that if there were no religion they'd be fighting over ethic reasons. While I will agree that religion on the whole is the most common and most likely reason for this kind of dickwaddery, it's not the only one.
True, there are other reasons they might be fighting and that's why each conflict needs to be taken on a case by case basis.
Frankly... people always say "if not Religion... then it would be something else".
But really? I read your virus analogy before and still find it fits like nothing else. ... and everytime someone says "but if not Religion, then it would be something else!" it kinda sounds like "yeah, but if not for this ultimate virulent killer virus, then people might get sick from something else! Like the guys over there who have the common cold!".
Religion is virulent, as you yourself just said and worse, it's the product of a long chain of evolution, i.e. evolution of a meme that is more or less the essence of irrationality: belief without proof, or even belief *despite* proof to the contrary. In the most basic sense it's irrationality that has learned to procreate and protect itself through a selfsustaining meme complex and institutionalization that aims at early childhood infection.
... people may suffer from all kinds of delusions, true enough, but I would like to point out that while some of them exhibit similar "symptoms" as religion, none of them is quite so virulent and adept at protecting itself from rationality.
The worst part of course being that we nowadays know exactly how and why these memes exist and evolve. We have countless examples of thousands of Religions that have evolved and died in the "wild". We know with high statistical significance that the same child will either be Christian or Muslim or whatever other religion depending on whatever the parents who raise it believe in... yet we have trouble coming to terms with what Religion really is... or rather are forced to accept it despite knowing what it is, simply because the majority of the population is still being infected by Reiligion in childhood and never shake it off before they infect their own children.
-
Wouldn't be a problem if Christianity and Islam would just man up and settle their differences in one all-out rumble only on pay per view:
MARTYRDOM IN MALLAWI
Then just repeat every four years, problem solved.
-
Wouldn't be a problem if Christianity and Islam would just man up and settle their differences in one all-out rumble only on pay per view:
MARTYRDOM IN MALLAWI
Then just repeat every four years, problem solved.
The all new ESPN13; Pay-per-view genocide. Whether you're Christian, Muslim, or just an atheist who wants to watch the world burn, tune in to watch the cleansing!
Be there!
-
(http://factofthedayblog.com/files/2011/03/Atomic-Bomb.jpg)
I've so got to see this...........
From orbit of course.
-
I dunno, I was told it's a view you can generally see only once in a lifetime...
-
Frankly... people always say "if not Religion... then it would be something else".
But really? I read your virus analogy before and still find it fits like nothing else. ... and everytime someone says "but if not Religion, then it would be something else!"
Because when it comes down to it, most of these religious conflicts also carry a significant ethnic conflict with them. You can claim that lack of religion would solve the issue but seeing as the people involved would still be of different ethnicities I very much doubt it.
There are many good arguments for why religion has no place in the modern world. This is not one of them.
-
(http://factofthedayblog.com/files/2011/03/Atomic-Bomb.jpg)
I've so got to see this...........
From orbit of course.
its the only way to be sure
-
Because when it comes down to it, most of these religious conflicts also carry a significant ethnic conflict with them. You can claim that lack of religion would solve the issue but seeing as the people involved would still be of different ethnicities I very much doubt it.
Are you suggesting that if we removed the ethnic difference from those religious conflicts, the conflict would go away? If not, how does that invalidate his argument?
You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.
-
Are you suggesting that if we removed the ethnic difference from those religious conflicts, the conflict would go away? If not, how does that invalidate his argument?
No. I'm saying that the ethnic differences would be enough to continue the conflict on their own.
You only need to look at the holocaust or the Rwandan Genocide to see that ethnic differences alone are more than enough.
You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.
If that's his argument, he should stop bringing it up on these threads as if it were a solution. It isn't. Even if you magically waved a wand and religion went away the conflict still would still continue. Unless you're planning to wave away ethic tensions immediately afterwards you'd achieve very little regarding that goal. So all you're basically saying is "We should shout loudly (but never actually achieve anything) about something that would solve half the problem! And by focusing on this issue we should make sure that everyone pays attention to my bugbear rather than doing anything that might solve the problem!"
-
You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.
I'd beg to differ, and say that religion is not the main instigators of violence.
The crusades? At that time, Europe was overpopulated with nobles and did not grow bigger by itself - tensions arose everywhere. Best way to keep the peace? Unite against a common enemy and take his lands (source: Horrible Histories :nervous:)!
The First World War? Nationalism. Since everyone appeared to go off to that war with a smile on his face, i'd certainly say that that impaired rational thinking severely.
The Second World War? Also nationalism and quite a bit of racism.
The Korea War? Ideologies, not religion.
Vietnam War? Also ideologies + nationalism. Since soldiers were absolutely convinced that napalming the **** out of villages which possibly might have had some possible connection to the Vietcong would make the world a better place i'd say that quite impaires the rationality.
The Taliban? If they are muslims, they are quite hypocrite about it: It's major source of income is the production and trade of drugs - which is outlawed in Islam. They just want power, the religion thing is just an advertising trick.
Afghanistan war? Revenge.
Iraq war? Resources, justified by nationalism and the whole 'US is awesome, every country should follow the US way' thing.
-
A thing to remark about the taliban - They allow this stuff to be grown in order to finance themselves, most likely knowing full well that the majority of it will end up amongst the infidels, especially in northern Europe.
-
the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.
-
but wouldn't that make global thermonuclear genocide far more difficult to accomplish?
-
the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.
You can replace religion with anything else there - Such as USSR's socialism not actually being socialistic, and stuff like that.
(Oh, I wanted to add the American Civil War on the list above, but I forgot what it was about. What was it about?)
-
Slavery, and state vs federal governments. Sort of.
-
Well, at least you know what to expect when it comes to religion. Who knows what would fill that void if it didn't exist..
-
the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.
You can replace religion with anything else there - Such as USSR's socialism not actually being socialistic, and stuff like that.
(Oh, I wanted to add the American Civil War on the list above, but I forgot what it was about. What was it about?)
religion is just one way the power hungry exploit the people. its not the only way. there are many others. lots of people join religions for no reason other than to be in the in group. those that want power know this and so also try to show allegiance with with the dominant religion as a means to power. to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as an atheist us politician. the reason for this is simple: they would never get elected. the religious majority would see them in the outgroup and thus they would be be more inclined to vote for the other guy. a politician can just as easily thump on ethnic or national identity to convince a population to go to war. but religion is just as good or, given the right conditions (such as a population who thinks their religion is infallable), superior a tool for that job.
but wouldn't that make global thermonuclear genocide far more difficult to accomplish?
you dont think they are actually gonna do something that makes sense, do you? of course not! rest assured the nukes will fall like rain.
-
It may be a bit late in the discussion for me to chime in with this, but reading through the first couple pages reminded me of this: A wise old Greek playwright named Terence once said, "I am human. I consider nothing that is human to be alien to me."
All people are capable of great good, and great evil, regardless of ethnic or religious background. We could all be Hitlers, Stalins, we could all be MLKs, Mother Theresas. Regardless of what excuses we use to become such, this is so.
So let's stop pretending abolishing religion would do anything to change the human condition.