[Bobboau]

Well I actually was eating a peanut butter sandwich when I wrote that (seriously, I'm not making that up).

I must have gotten distracted.

:|
You might be able to walk like me, talk like me, but you shall NEVER BE MAN!
and THIS!
/*points*/
THIS is why!

[karajorma]

They don't call me King Louie for nothing.

[Firstdragon34]

Religion in my point of view was a way to 'solve' everyday questions abou their enviroment and how humans and everything around us was created, but I guess if there is a light side there must a dark side.

In this case the Martyrdom in Mallawi

[Mikes]

The point is that if there were no religion they'd be fighting over ethic reasons. While I will agree that religion on the whole is the most common and most likely reason for this kind of dickwaddery, it's not the only one.

True, there are other reasons they might be fighting and that's why each conflict needs to be taken on a case by case basis.

Frankly... people always say "if not Religion... then it would be something else".

But really? I read your virus analogy before and still find it fits like nothing else. ... and everytime someone says "but if not Religion, then it would be something else!" it kinda sounds like "yeah, but if not for this ultimate virulent killer virus, then people might get sick from something else! Like the guys over there who have the common cold!".

Religion is virulent, as you yourself just said and worse, it's the product of a long chain of evolution, i.e. evolution of a meme that is more or less the essence of irrationality: belief without proof, or even belief *despite* proof to the contrary.  In the most basic sense it's irrationality that has learned to procreate and protect itself through a selfsustaining meme complex and institutionalization that aims at early childhood infection.

...  people may suffer from all kinds of delusions, true enough, but I would like to point out that while some of them exhibit similar "symptoms" as religion, none of them is quite so virulent and adept at protecting itself from rationality.

The worst part of course being that we nowadays know exactly how and why these memes exist and evolve. We have countless examples of thousands of Religions that have evolved and died in the "wild". We know with high statistical significance that the same child will either be Christian or Muslim or whatever other religion depending on whatever the parents who raise it believe in...  yet we have trouble coming to terms with what Religion really is...  or rather are forced to accept it despite knowing what it is, simply because the majority of the population is still being infected by Reiligion in childhood and never shake it off before they infect their own children.

[swashmebuckle]

Wouldn't be a problem if Christianity and Islam would just man up and settle their differences in one all-out rumble only on pay per view:

MARTYRDOM IN MALLAWI

Then just repeat every four years, problem solved.

[Mefustae]

Wouldn't be a problem if Christianity and Islam would just man up and settle their differences in one all-out rumble only on pay per view:

MARTYRDOM IN MALLAWI

Then just repeat every four years, problem solved.

The all new ESPN13; Pay-per-view genocide. Whether you're Christian, Muslim, or just an atheist who wants to watch the world burn, tune in to watch the cleansing!

Be there!

[Kosh]

I've so got to see this...........



From orbit of course.

[Kszyhu]

I dunno, I was told it's a view you can generally see only once in a lifetime...

[karajorma]

Frankly... people always say "if not Religion... then it would be something else".

But really? I read your virus analogy before and still find it fits like nothing else. ... and everytime someone says "but if not Religion, then it would be something else!"

Because when it comes down to it, most of these religious conflicts also carry a significant ethnic conflict with them. You can claim that lack of religion would solve the issue but seeing as the people involved would still be of different ethnicities I very much doubt it.

There are many good arguments for why religion has no place in the modern world. This is not one of them.

[Nuke]

I've so got to see this...........



From orbit of course.

its the only way to be sure

[Ghostavo]

Because when it comes down to it, most of these religious conflicts also carry a significant ethnic conflict with them. You can claim that lack of religion would solve the issue but seeing as the people involved would still be of different ethnicities I very much doubt it.

Are you suggesting that if we removed the ethnic difference from those religious conflicts, the conflict would go away? If not, how does that invalidate his argument?

You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.

[karajorma]

Are you suggesting that if we removed the ethnic difference from those religious conflicts, the conflict would go away? If not, how does that invalidate his argument?

No. I'm saying that the ethnic differences would be enough to continue the conflict on their own.

You only need to look at the holocaust or the Rwandan Genocide to see that ethnic differences alone are more than enough.

You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.

If that's his argument, he should stop bringing it up on these threads as if it were a solution. It isn't. Even if you magically waved a wand and religion went away the conflict still would still continue. Unless you're planning to wave away ethic tensions immediately afterwards you'd achieve very little regarding that goal. So all you're basically saying is "We should shout loudly (but never actually achieve anything) about something that would solve half the problem! And by focusing on this issue we should make sure that everyone pays attention to my bugbear rather than doing anything that might solve the problem!"

[Grizzly]

You'll always have differences that will breed conflicts, but he is right in pointing out that religion is one of the main instigators of violence. His reasons to remove religion is not directly because of conflict but because of its limiting effect on rationality.

I'd beg to differ, and say that religion is not the main instigators of violence.

The crusades? At that time, Europe was overpopulated with nobles and did not grow bigger by itself - tensions arose everywhere. Best way to keep the peace? Unite against a common enemy and take his lands (source: Horrible Histories  )!
The First World War? Nationalism. Since everyone appeared to go off to that war with a smile on his face, i'd certainly say that that impaired rational thinking severely.
The Second World War? Also nationalism and quite a bit of racism.
The Korea War? Ideologies, not religion.
Vietnam War? Also ideologies + nationalism. Since soldiers were absolutely convinced that napalming the **** out of villages which possibly might have had some possible connection to the Vietcong would make the world a better place i'd say that quite impaires the rationality.
The Taliban? If they are muslims, they are quite hypocrite about it: It's major source of income is the production and trade of drugs - which is outlawed in Islam. They just want power, the religion thing is just an advertising trick.
Afghanistan war? Revenge.
Iraq war? Resources, justified by nationalism and the whole 'US is awesome, every country should follow the US way' thing.

[Nemesis6]

A thing to remark about the taliban - They allow this stuff to be grown in order to finance themselves, most likely knowing full well that the majority of it will end up amongst the infidels, especially in northern Europe.

[Nuke]

the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.

[Bobboau]

but wouldn't that make global thermonuclear genocide far more difficult to accomplish?

[Grizzly]

the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.

You can replace religion with anything else there - Such as USSR's socialism not actually being socialistic, and stuff  like that.

(Oh, I wanted to add the American Civil War on the list above, but I forgot what it was about. What was it about?)

[redsniper]

Slavery, and state vs federal governments. Sort of.

[castor]

Well, at least you know what to expect when it comes to religion. Who knows what would fill that void if it didn't exist..

[Nuke]

the power hungry will always twist religion to do their bidding. i just wish your typical religious person would recognize that is what they are doing and not follow them so blindly.

You can replace religion with anything else there - Such as USSR's socialism not actually being socialistic, and stuff  like that.

(Oh, I wanted to add the American Civil War on the list above, but I forgot what it was about. What was it about?)

religion is just one way the power hungry exploit the people. its not the only way. there are many others. lots of people join religions for no reason other than to be in the in group. those that want power know this and so also try to show allegiance with with the dominant religion as a means to power. to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as an atheist us politician. the reason for this is simple: they would never get elected. the religious majority would see them in the outgroup and thus they would be be more inclined to vote for the other guy. a politician can just as easily thump on ethnic or national identity to convince a population to go to war. but religion is just as good or, given the right conditions (such as a population who thinks their religion is infallable), superior a tool for that job.

but wouldn't that make global thermonuclear genocide far more difficult to accomplish?

you dont think they are actually gonna do something that makes sense, do you? of course not! rest assured the nukes will fall like rain.