Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FlamingCobra on December 16, 2011, 03:11:08 pm
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This week, a bill that would create America’s first Internet censorship system is going to a full committee for a vote, and is likely to pass. This week, millions of us will protest censorship, censoring our own posts and asking you to call Congress. We need your help - please make a call right now. (http://americancensorship.org/)
If this bill basses, it will probably be the end of Hard Light Productions.
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If this bill basses, it will probably be the end of Hard Light Productions.
not really
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If this bill basses, it will probably be the end of Hard Light Productions.
not really
You have no idea what SOPA does, do you?
If the bill passes and your next YouTube upload includes copyrighted music or video, you could be committing a felony. Even Facebook and YouTube, sites that exist to share user-generated content, could be held liable if just a few copyright-infringing links are discovered among the millions their users share daily.
Most of the user-made campaigns on HLP reuse at least some of Volition's original assets, which is a copyright infringement in it self, although you could make an argument for "fair use." If SOPA passes, fair use no longer applies.
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(http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lus5pvcdXL1qjo6n3o1_500.jpg)
Also Cobra, you're a little late to the party.
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Most of the user-made campaigns on HLP reuse at least some of Volition's original assets, which is a copyright infringement in it self, although you could make an argument for "fair use." If SOPA passes, fair use no longer applies.
lololololololol
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Well FWIW, last I heard, the vote today had been postponed indefinitely. So you have some time to educate yourself as to what the proposed legislation would do. I suggest you make use of it. I mean, hell, I oppose it enough that I've been writing my representatives about it, but I fail to see how it would have any impact on what goes on at HLP. Like, at all.
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/me thinks about teh lulz of BP:AoA being sued for use of the Wilhelm scream
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...you're just hearing about this now? It's sort of been a thing for months.
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If this bill basses, it will probably be the end of Hard Light Productions.
not really
You have no idea what SOPA does, do you?
And the person who's been reading internet hype instead of the bill's text does?
If the bill passes and your next YouTube upload includes copyrighted music or video, you could be committing a felony. Even Facebook and YouTube, sites that exist to share user-generated content, could be held liable if just a few copyright-infringing links are discovered among the millions their users share daily.
Most of the user-made campaigns on HLP reuse at least some of Volition's original assets, which is a copyright infringement in it self, although you could make an argument for "fair use." If SOPA passes, fair use no longer applies.
A) Regarding campaigns: Derivative Work. Look it up. Also, do some Googling for the legal wrangling that occurred between Vanilla Ice and Queen, back in the 1980's.
B) Facebook, YouTube, et. al. have these little things called "license agreements," wherein you either surrender your copyright over the posted works to the website or you provide them a very open-ended right to show the content to the people you're trying to reach by posting the content there. Nobody's going to be using SOPA to sue such content-providing websites out of existance for providing content.
C) While we're at it, look up and read about Fair Use Doctrine, because I seriously doubt you think it means what it actually means.
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SOPA, in effect, is a law that overcompensates for the problem it's trying to solve. The broad definition of "infringing sites" within the act itself is the reason to be concerned, because there is some serious potential for abuse there.
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burn the earth: problem solved
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To add on to what BF said:
1) User campaigns != Freespace assets (ie the only assets being distributed are user made assets and the open engine).
2) It would have to be the stupidest move ever for :v: to prosecute anyone here even if we assume what we're currently doing DOES violate SOPA.
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Chilling effect.
Everyone is afraid of getting sued, and websites would rather take down non-infringing content than defend it. Look at YouTube; they've effectively automated the takedown system.
And claiming something is "derivative work" or "fair use" isn't always going to save you, even if you're right.
Edit: Look at what Universal did to the BSG mods.
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To add on to what BF said:
1) User campaigns != Freespace assets (ie the only assets being distributed are user made assets and the open engine).
2) It would have to be the stupidest move ever for :v: to prosecute anyone here even if we assume what we're currently doing DOES violate SOPA.
:v: is not the one you're supposed to be worried about. Interplay is.
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I'd imagine the same would apply. Not only has HLP has always endorsed acquisition of the Freespace games through the most legitimate means available, but we've spent 10 years giving users a reason to play Freespace, something that Interplay never did.
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I'd imagine the same would apply. Not only has HLP has always endorsed acquisition of the Freespace games through the most legitimate means available, but we've spent 10 years giving users a reason to play Freespace, something that Interplay never did.
if common sense was as common as its name implies, i'd agree.
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And what about the TCs?
Diaspora, in particular. Because in case you haven't noticed, Universal doesn't give a damn about "derivative works" or "fair use". And they didn't even need to sue the BSG modders to get them shut down. They just passed a little note to ModDB, and ModDB didn't have the balls to say "no". And I don't expect Diaspora to fare any better if Universal decides to take the issue to Diaspora's web host, or to the HLP admins, or to HLP's web host.
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And what about the TCs?
Diaspora, in particular. Because in case you haven't noticed, Universal doesn't give a damn about "derivative works" or "fair use". And they didn't even need to sue the BSG modders to get them shut down. They just passed a little note to ModDB, and ModDB didn't have the balls to say "no". And I don't expect Diaspora to fare any better if Universal decides to take the issue to Diaspora's web host, or to the HLP admins, or to HLP's web host.
You expect this bill to actually get passed into law, and then for it to actually stand for more than a few weeks as the courts proceed with the next best thing to a curb-stomp-battle they've seen in decades.
Seriously, everyone needs to chill out.
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Chilling effect.
Gets you whacked with the First Amendment.
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And what about the TCs?
Diaspora, in particular. Because in case you haven't noticed, Universal doesn't give a damn about "derivative works" or "fair use". And they didn't even need to sue the BSG modders to get them shut down. They just passed a little note to ModDB, and ModDB didn't have the balls to say "no". And I don't expect Diaspora to fare any better if Universal decides to take the issue to Diaspora's web host, or to the HLP admins, or to HLP's web host.
You expect this bill to actually get passed into law, and then for it to actually stand for more than a few weeks as the courts proceed with the next best thing to a curb-stomp-battle they've seen in decades.
Seriously, everyone needs to chill out.
Actually, kind of, yea. I mean they managed to pass the indefinite detention act, and label protesters as "low level terrorists". I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to shove this through and keep it there.
That being said, it's not like the populace is making it easy for them.
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/me thinks about teh lulz of BP:AoA being sued for use of the Wilhelm scream
hahaha
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(http://www.bevreview.com/wp-content/image_mountaindewcodered1.jpg)
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All I can say is that Hollywood is attempting a last minute powerplay to shove it extra hard.
There's enough in the bill to warrant a thousand constitutional challenges, but keep in mind that we're dealing with one of the more progressively censor happy and rights ignoring administrations, not that Bush was any better, but Obama, specifically Joe Biden have not been good at all for civil liberties. But to show some of the pure stupid: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111214/03264917079/freedom-information-document-dump-ice-about-domain-seizures-almost-totally-redacted.shtml that the lobbyists have been pushing for.
The lowdown is to expect more underhanded legislation, censorship, and the ICE getting innocents involved.
Don't expect me to shriek "Code Red" but keep in mind I am highly critical of proponents for copyrights - they're usually the same bastards who would sue a granny to the grave over a borked computer full of adware than sensibly plumb the market for maximum profit. For them, it's about maintaining hold on the market to strangle it.
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Don't expect me to shriek "Code Red" but keep in mind I am highly critical of proponents for copyrights - they're usually the same bastards who would sue a granny to the grave over a borked computer full of adware than sensibly plumb the market for maximum profit. For them, it's about maintaining hold on the market to strangle it.
Monopoly is the word you're looking for. In a rather anti-capitalist fashion they'd rather strangle a market than work on the principles of a free one.
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I like how the copyright for 'happy birthday to you', a song improvised by children and registered as a copyright before world war 2 is not going to fall into public domain until 2030.
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Which is quite impressive considering that they plagerised the original song and changed two words!
Just sing Good Birthday To You instead and let them sue. :p
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(http://www.bevreview.com/wp-content/image_mountaindewcodered1.jpg)
its bad for your spleen!
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Know what would be REALLY ironic? If the senators/congressman who voted for this had THEIR web pages taken down by this law. Most of the people who propose and support this law are themselves in violation of it.
And if this law actually passes, I bet someone will do just that just to prove a point!
Oh, and SOPA isn't dead yet. (http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/digital/copyright/article/49931-sopa-will-be-taken-up-again-wednesday-.html)
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While it's good to not panic over things I do feel the SOPA is quite a important thing. What's worse is that it's coupled with the Indefinite Detention bill, so with a bit of bad luck it's suddenly the end of free speech. Not that anything happens overnight, as it's a process. I hope common sense actually prevails but with the people in D.C. being so unconstitutional these days there's not much chance it will.
As always, we'll see what's to come, but if such a thing is possible, we could try to talk to Volition and make some kind of agreement that protects us from getting in trouble due to SOPA.
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While it's good to not panic over things I do feel the SOPA is quite a important thing. What's worse is that it's coupled with the Indefinite Detention bill, so with a bit of bad luck it's suddenly the end of free speech. Not that anything happens overnight, as it's a process. I hope common sense actually prevails but with the people in D.C. being so unconstitutional these days there's not much chance it will.
As always, we'll see what's to come, but if such a thing is possible, we could try to talk to Volition and make some kind of agreement that protects us from getting in trouble due to SOPA.
the problem for HLP is not volition as the stuff they owned for Freespace is publicly available, the issue would be Interplay who still own the IP, and as we know Interplay is a whole other story
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I shall mindlesslyagree with most things nuke says within this thread.
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the problem for HLP is not volition as the stuff they owned for Freespace is publicly available, the issue would be Interplay who still own the IP, and as we know Interplay is a whole other story
Actually I think it's more complicated than that. From what I can see Volition retained possession of most of the IP. What Interplay appear to have is the rights to publish the game and the rights to publish any sequels to the game.
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You know, if SOPA passes, I wonder if it will somehow come back to bite the media lobbyists in the arse.
Like closing down their web stores indefinitely for being suspects of copyright infringement.
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And thus the moral of the story is that everyone would lose (with respect to trade, commerce, etc.)?
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please, this isn't going to affect corperations in the slightest. they've already demonstrated countless times that they are effectively immune to copyright law. no, this only applies to us commoners.
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Klaustrophobia is correct, I'm afraid.
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Well damn. On that note, I may be interested in seeking Tyler Durden for employment. I hear that part of the mind is interested in bringing down the system.
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If this bill basses, it will probably be the end of Hard Light Productions.
not really
You have no idea what SOPA does, do you?
And the person who's been reading internet hype instead of the bill's text does?
If the bill passes and your next YouTube upload includes copyrighted music or video, you could be committing a felony. Even Facebook and YouTube, sites that exist to share user-generated content, could be held liable if just a few copyright-infringing links are discovered among the millions their users share daily.
Most of the user-made campaigns on HLP reuse at least some of Volition's original assets, which is a copyright infringement in it self, although you could make an argument for "fair use." If SOPA passes, fair use no longer applies.
A) Regarding campaigns: Derivative Work. Look it up. Also, do some Googling for the legal wrangling that occurred between Vanilla Ice and Queen, back in the 1980's.
B) Facebook, YouTube, et. al. have these little things called "license agreements," wherein you either surrender your copyright over the posted works to the website or you provide them a very open-ended right to show the content to the people you're trying to reach by posting the content there. Nobody's going to be using SOPA to sue such content-providing websites out of existance for providing content.
C) While we're at it, look up and read about Fair Use Doctrine, because I seriously doubt you think it means what it actually means.
Fair use goes out the window, alone with derivative work. Since ISP's have immunity, if they got an order from a company (not the government) to stop HLP they'll enforce it no matter what.
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Fair use goes out the window, alone with derivative work. Since ISP's have immunity, if they got an order from a company (not the government) to stop HLP they'll enforce it no matter what.
Fair use doctrine and derivative work precedents do not go out the window. They are utterly unaffected by SOPA, and to believe otherwise shows a lack of understanding about what those terms mean. SOPA does not alter the nature of copyrights, trademarks, or patents but rather expands on the methods of enforcement.
It's still a bloody awful bill, mind you. Were it to go into effect as-written, the internet, as accessed from the United States, would become largely partitianed off from the internet as accessed by the rest of the world because of the ****ery that SOPA demands be performed on the DNS system. The bill expands on this notion of private enforcement of copyright that's more akin to corporate vigilantism than anything remotely resembling justice.
By all means, please continue to oppose SOPA, but when you're writing that letter to you Senators and Congressperson about it, try to include the valid reasons for opposition, and leave out the invalid ones. If you go in shouting, "SOPA'S THE END OF FAIR USE!" then you immediately come off as sounding like an idiot who posts his favorite album/movie/video game to a torrent site, whilst trying to use fair use doctrine as a shield. Basically, what I'm trying to say is read the ****ing bill (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3261:) (here's a PDF, so that you don't have to click through each section (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr3261ih/pdf/BILLS-112hr3261ih.pdf)) and oppose it based on something it actually does. It's seventy-eight pages in font-so-obnoxiously-large-that-those-old-farts-in-Congress-can-read-it. If it means that much to you, that's a pretty short read.
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Would it be strange to consider making some kind of a underground version of HLP in case this passes? Since the NDAA passed at New Years Eve I'm thinking they'll pass anything that helps line their pockets or gain favor for (s)elections and such. Also, what about things like IRC's and others?
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"HLP UNDERGROUND" sounds even more like a porn site than usual........I LIKE IT!
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"HLP UNDERGROUND" sounds even more like a porn site than usual........I LIKE IT!
Oh noes... my girlfriend already asked once what kind of site "HARD light productions" is lol.
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Fair use goes out the window, alone with derivative work. Since ISP's have immunity, if they got an order from a company (not the government) to stop HLP they'll enforce it no matter what.
Fair use doctrine and derivative work precedents do not go out the window. They are utterly unaffected by SOPA, and to believe otherwise shows a lack of understanding about what those terms mean. SOPA does not alter the nature of copyrights, trademarks, or patents but rather expands on the methods of enforcement.
Quite. However, there are already problems with fair use and derivative works considering, say, YouTube videos, and that's just under DMCA which enables the copyright holders to start legal proceedings against the hosting company (not ISP) if they don't react to the complaint by removing it or limiting its availability. Note that this is still in the regime of civil courts.
SOPA would move all this to the criminal courts and that step alone is quite a big thing.
Considering that the definition of fair use/derivative work are not exactly the clearest to majority of people, you can bet your ass there will be numerous, numerous claims of copyright violation in cases that would, in fact, qualify as either fair use (parody etc.) or derivative works, but that won't matter because the ISP's will gain immunity if they react to complaints, whereas they will be held liable if they don't react to complaints.
Much like YouTube, they won't have interest or resources to investigate whether or not the copyright complaints actually have a legitimate reason, they can just pull the plug to avoid lawsuits against them. Clients will actively have to disprove copyright complaints, assuming their ISP even offers such an option.
Moreover, when someone puts media containing copyrighted works (under fair use/derivative work definitions) for hosting, and then their ISP pulls the plug on it announcing that a copyright complaint has been filed on the content - who's going to have the legal knowledge and resources to
a. be certain that the media actually qualifies as fair use of copyrighted work, or derivative work, and
b. have the cojones to clarify the situation with the ISP
Not to mention that you would have to prove this to the ISP, which means the ISP needs to have a legal department prepared and able to handle copyright definitions to confirm that the work indeed does not violate copyrights, contrary to the complaint made by whoever.
The ISP's are not going to put massive funds into such activity. Why should they? They would risk getting sued by those who complained of the media in the first place. Going to courthouse to decide whether a piece of media hosted by the ISP violates copyright or not will be a massive resource drain for the ISP and their client, and since the actual definitions of fair use/derivative work tend to be a bit muddy, it's not a given that the judicial system will even make the correct call on it.
No, the end result is that anyone can make a copyright claim on anything and the ISP's will either take it down or face huge and economically inconceiveable risks from opposing the copyright claim on behalf of their client.
At least, that is my interpretation of what will likely happen. Even though technically the bill doesn't change any definitions of the copyright law itself (which, by the way, would be in far greater need of adjustment than reactive measures in enforcing the copyright law), the effective outcome will significantly change how different aspects of copyright law are handled and by whom.
This will, in my analysis, include significant changes to the viability of fair use of copyrighted materials, as well as derivative works.
Discuss.
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Someone just needs to remind the fatcats about the free porn websites, then tell them that if the bill goes through they will not only have to work when they'd usually be looking at breasts, but their teen sons would go out to find some, and probably knock up some girl and cause a scandal that will cost them the next election.
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Google, Facebook, Ebay, twitter, etc. are considering the "nuclear option."
http://m.cnet.com/Article.rbml?nid=57349540&cid=null&bcid=&bid=-281
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yea this bull**** isn't going to sit well with other internet companies out there. when most of the internet stops working im sure that will hammer the message into politicians that annexing freedoms is a good way to start a revolution.
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This will, in my analysis, include significant changes to the viability of fair use of copyrighted materials, as well as derivative works.
Discuss.
I will certainly give you credit for better articulating your point and additional credit for saying "significantly change" instead of "OMG ENDXOR!" with regard to fair use and derivative work precedents. ;)
I still think you're taking an unrealistically pessimistic view on how this affects intellectual property law, though. Monetarily, there's more to be gained in a criminal suit versus a civil suit. Yes, there's jail time and fines to be paid, which makes the threat more intimidating, but the settlements won't be any more lucrative, and the legal fees are going to be greater. That in mind, I think the DMCA is still what you're going to see being used against people putting concert tracks on YouTube or leaching a game off of a Torrent. SOPA will likely be reserved for taking down large-scale sites devoted primarily to piracy. In fact, given the language regarding websites hosted in foreign countries, I wouldn't be surprised if this bill was drafted to specifically target The Pirate Bay (again) and its imitators. The potential for broader impact exists, of course, but I think that the DMCA is still going to be the weapon-of-choice for most copyright infringement cases.
I will certainly agree with you that the privatization of enforcement is a huge problem. I also think that that's a huge part of the problem with people opposing this on the grounds that it supposedly harms the right to use intellectual property: It takes the focus well away from the implications that SOPA has for due process. If SOPA demanded that law enforcement agencies treat copyright/trade mark/patent infringement the same way as other crimes, then, after the accusation is made, they'd have to investigate, acquire proper warrants, and then they'd be able to detain you, demand the shutdown your website, and put you through the court system. Under SOPA, as-written, law enforcement agencies are hardly involved in the process, so the accusation is enough. The enforcement of copyright law isn't what's scary about SOPA; the lack of due process is.
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*snip*
So, basically what I said on page 1 :D
albeit perhaps more thorough
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Under SOPA, as-written, law enforcement agencies are hardly involved in the process, so the accusation is enough. The enforcement of copyright law isn't what's scary about SOPA; the lack of due process is.
With this, I can just imagine them taking down smaller competition or open-sourced projects like adobe with gimp.
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Google, Facebook, Ebay, twitter, etc. are considering the "nuclear option."
http://m.cnet.com/Article.rbml?nid=57349540&cid=null&bcid=&bid=-281
You could've given a non-mobile link (http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57349540-281/sopa-opponents-may-go-nuclear-and-other-2012-predictions/), you know? :p
if anyone tries to go through with this, i expect it to backfire extremely spectacularily.
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surprised that no one has posted this, but a bit of legislation much more deserving of a code red was apparantly signed on new year's eve. the one that lets anyone be held indefinitely by accusing them of being a terrorist.
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surprised that no one has posted this, but a bit of legislation much more deserving of a code red was apparantly signed on new year's eve. the one that lets anyone be held indefinitely by accusing them of being a terrorist.
Yeah, NDAA. That frakker can go die in a fire.
Now IIRC, you're fairly conservative-minded, and I'm fairly liberal-minded, and if we both agree that it's a dangerous, horribad, bull**** piece of legislation and it still got passed, then... WHO THE **** IS DRIVING THE COUNTRY??? :banghead:
(morons... the answer is morons, btw.)
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surprised that no one has posted this, but a bit of legislation much more deserving of a code red was apparantly signed on new year's eve. the one that lets anyone be held indefinitely by accusing them of being a terrorist.
Yeah, it's pretty bad, although frankly people are getting up in arms about this far too late. All NDAA does is more formally codify what the government has already been doing and already considers acceptable.
In other words, this battle was lost a while ago. Not enough people noticed.
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Soon the situation wil be ++UnGood
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WHO THE **** IS DRIVING THE COUNTRY??? :banghead:
People who've realized their actions don't necessarily matter.
Because the laws of Congress are subject to judicial review and Congress is populated by people who paid just enough attention in their law classes to know this many of them have come to the conclusion that they can pass whatever ridiculous bull**** they want and it's safe because the Supreme Court or one of the District Courts will reverse it.
They've passed the thinking on to the judiciary. Which is, admittedly, often better-equipped to think then they are, but on the other hand **** you you lazy ****ing assholes it takes time to overturn your bull****.
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They've passed the thinking on to the judiciary. Which is, admittedly, often better-equipped to think then they are, but on the other hand **** you you lazy ****ing assholes it takes time to overturn your bull****.
:lol: So true...
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