You're so sensitive. You're so emotional. You're defensive. You're overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You're crazy! I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor? You're so dramatic. Just get over it already!
Sound familiar?
If you're a woman, it probably does.
Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said?
When someone says these things to you, it's not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling -- that's inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, "Calm down, you're overreacting," after you just addressed someone else's bad behavior, is emotional manipulation, pure and simple.
And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It's patently false and unfair.
... Gaslighting is a term often used by mental health professionals (I am not one) to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they're crazy.
... But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, "You're so sensitive," to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.
While dealing with gaslighting isn't a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.
And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.
Why?
Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men.
It's a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don't refuse our burdens as easily. It's the ultimate cowardice.
Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: It renders some women emotionally mute.
These women aren't able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can't tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can't tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good...
i like to think i treat women fairly. i mean i always pay them after sex.
Stop being so hysterical, BS.
I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor?
Jesus Christ, I was just role playing the very same people he was criticizing. That "I was just joking" one was even a direct quote.
If I don't have a sense of humor, yours is a brick wall covered in graffiti.
The Eff-ayy-Gee word is a slur, no thanks to assholes. I liked the older definition it had, with it being a word for a "unpleasant old woman".But yes, I would appreciate it if you didn't use the word in that context. It isn't funny. It's actually quite horrible, and until assholes stop using it to bash other human beings, I'm afraid it's going to stay unfunny.
Also, as for QuantumDelta: *clapclap* :yes:
i like to think i treat women fairly. i mean i always pay them after sex.
Please tell me that you are aware that the british english slangword for cigarette can also be used as a slur for homosexual men.....
Please tell me that you are aware that the british english slangword for cigarette can also be used as a slur for homosexual men.....
Please tell me that you are aware that the british english slangword for cigarette can also be used as a slur for homosexual men.....
Well yeah. Again, it was also used to describe an unpleasant old woman. Then people used it as a slur for homosexual men.
Jeez. I'm not saying that they used the word hag, they used eff-ayy-gee-gee-oh-tee to describe a unpleasant, ugly old woman! Good god man, let's just get off this. Otherwise this will just spiral into a argument about who is saying what and that would be boring. And horrible.
Jeez. I'm not saying that they used the word hag, they used eff-ayy-gee-gee-oh-tee to describe a unpleasant, ugly old woman! Good god man, let's just get off this. Otherwise this will just spiral into a argument about who is saying what and that would be boring. And horrible.
But isn't the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women's opinions don't hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn't quite as legitimate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI
Patience is virtue, you should ponder all equally as you make a decision. Teach others to be knowledgeable. Then you shall have all voices heard in equal beauty like a perfectly synchronized chorus.
i like to think i treat women fairly. i mean i always pay them after sex.
You are so sensitive Nuke :)
granted one ive never seen used.
i see some pretty disturbing **** while observing human nature. but ive never seen a guy tell a gal that she is overreacting or is too sensitive. maybe its because im not surrounded by liberal wankers who talk about eachothers emotions in public.
yes people are dicks. i didnt need an article to tell me that. we know how to identify who the dicks are. they are easy to spot. but yet society still rewards them with high paying jobs, sexual partners, and large amounts of power. the world is run by dicks. nice people will read the article and use the knowledge to treat women better, a dick will read it and immediately have a new weapon in their arsenal. further more it drives a wedge between two groups of people. and so long as people continue to wall themselves off in little groups they deserve what they get.
The article isn't saying we should coddle women and give legitimately unacceptable behavior a pass, it's just saying to give a man's word and a woman's word the same validity. We don't have to flip roles here and make men suffer under the matriarchy or something. We could just, you know, treat each other fairly. You shouldn't dismiss something from a woman (or foreigner, or racial minority, or homosexual, etc.) that you would have otherwise taken seriously from a man.This. What the hell happened? :confused:
I'm with you three. I'd actually read this article before and wished both then and now that I could've shared it on Facebook without something akin to this thread happening and everyone proclaiming 'feminazi!' and aggressively asserting that there is no problem.The article isn't saying we should coddle women and give legitimately unacceptable behavior a pass, it's just saying to give a man's word and a woman's word the same validity. We don't have to flip roles here and make men suffer under the matriarchy or something. We could just, you know, treat each other fairly. You shouldn't dismiss something from a woman (or foreigner, or racial minority, or homosexual, etc.) that you would have otherwise taken seriously from a man.This. What the hell happened? :confused:
For the record, I'm with redsniper and Battuta on this.
Kudos for posting the article!
This brings up a couple of connections to evolution too for it is not the most caring or loving who survive. It is the most fit to the current environment, and currently egoism pays off. The question on my mind is, what is the role of laws on narsistic (sp?) behavior, do they actually suppress or increase it? Some people notice narsists from afar, and could intervene, but the laws tend to prevent that, and on top of that, the referred abusive "jerk" gets likely DEFENDED by his girlfriend in the court.
To open the discussion to another direction (generalization warning), I have to mention that for some time, I have been thinking that the nature has intended the higher functioning autists to be the natural counterpart for narsists, as their nature seems to be almost the opposite. Narsists are well-aware of the social hierarchy, while autists simply do not care about it. Autists seem to have a very intrisic moral code, while narsists then do not care about it.
However, I'm still waiting for a research paper on the role of women controlling the sex life in a partnership, which would lead to another interesting topic; does prostitution have an effect on divorce rates, and if so, what is that effect?
While I agree that this is a problem, I think it was a stupid decision to frame this as a man vs women thing. It goes on plenty in other dynamics.I agree, and this should be recognized as well. I should've mentioned this sooner, but I also meant to say that I know one of my old friends have purposefully agitated me politically just to get me mad, only to shut me down when I do say something, saying something along the lines of, "And here you go again with your politics." It's also why this article was more personal to me.
if men are gaslighting their women around and intentionally manipulating them then thats just being a dick, but unfortunately our society seems to reward being a dick up to a point. the nice guy who read the article in the op and decides to put that information to use when dealing with the opposite sex, probibly isnt going to get laid,
While I agree that this is a problem, I think it was a stupid decision to frame this as a man vs women thing. It goes on plenty in other dynamics.
HLP has come a long way in the last couple years, but this whole thread (minus a few, like redsniper and Battuta) makes me shake my head at how little it takes for the worst to come out of it.
I literally have more women on me than I know what to do with
who's trying to be funny. if i had read this thread 10 years ago, id have agreed with red and bat as well. but since then ive seen too damn much in about as much time to have any remaining respect for any human life what so ever. burn it, burn it all to the ground, that is your enlightenment, then eternal blackness.
What a terrible thread in response to such a great article.
I'd say the crux of the matter is summed up nicely at the end though,QuoteBut isn't the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women's opinions don't hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn't quite as legitimate?
And the reaction here generally seems to be that of people terrified of losing their superiority and having to deal with a level playing field.
who's trying to be funny. if i had read this thread 10 years ago, id have agreed with red and bat as well. but since then ive seen too damn much in about as much time to have any remaining respect for any human life what so ever. burn it, burn it all to the ground, that is your enlightenment, then eternal blackness.
Learn some history Nuke. The human race has come a long, long, LONG way. The stuff that happens today, as bad as it is, is like a walk in the park compared to the past.
You can do all the dying you want, but leave the rest of us out of it.
hehehe, everyone is so worked out about this :P
nice work syphed
who's trying to be funny. if i had read this thread 10 years ago, id have agreed with red and bat as well. but since then ive seen too damn much in about as much time to have any remaining respect for any human life what so ever. burn it, burn it all to the ground, that is your enlightenment, then eternal blackness.
Learn some history Nuke. The human race has come a long, long, LONG way. The stuff that happens today, as bad as it is, is like a walk in the park compared to the past.
You can do all the dying you want, but leave the rest of us out of it.
you assume that progress is always positive, always in the forward direction, that it never takes a step or a thousand back. i do not think this is the case. there will be many a dark age ahead just wait and see. i know lots of history, i also know that it likes to repeat itself. so we dont drive poles through people anymore and put them on display, not since at least nam anyway (though not as bad-ass as vlad's work). we might not see many behedings anymore, except when terrorists are killing someone. do i need to point out the holocaust? thats still in living memory. we may have gotten better at filtering out violence and suffering, especially with our eyes glued to screens all day, but that does not mean it does not exist. it just takes the collapse of civilization to throw us back at the mercy of wolves. and history tells is this has happened many times.
The amusing thing to me, is do we even have girls at HLP? I wouldn't have thought there'd be very many of them.
Never very many and never for very long. Threads like this drive them away.
If civilisation crumbles and burns, and I am swept away, so be it. There's nothing I can do about it. But always something else has risen out of it's ashes. Civilisation has conquered anarchy and chaos numerous times throughout history.
Unless we manage to last until the heat death of the universe somehow.
There are some theoretical possibilities regarding eternity and heat death that I found quite interesting.
For instance, it is theoretically possible to build a thinking machine (where allegedly all mankind in the future would uplink to) that would symptotically decrease its thermal activity while synchronizing its thought speed with the decrease by slowing down. With the right equation, it was calculated that such a system would survive forever, and would be able to think "eternally". There were also more than one solution to the problem.
As for you Nuke, as far as I'm concerened right now is the best time to be alive there's ever been in human history. Although it still depends on your location. If you're in the first World, you're good.
If civilisation crumbles and burns, and I am swept away, so be it. There's nothing I can do about it. But always something else has risen out of it's ashes. Civilisation has conquered anarchy and chaos numerous times throughout history. So you can either be all emo and hope for the World to end in nuclear fire, or you can try and squeeze something out of your time on this planet while you're here. If I find myself dying tomorrow, I will not regret what I did with my time.
What probably irks some people is this notion that only women get the "you're so sensitive" treatment.
What probably irks some people is this notion that only women get the "you're so sensitive" treatment.
Hell, I tend to find that taking something that happens to everyone and elevating it to a "Woman's problem" is actually just as patronisingly sexist as the behaviour it's trying to stamp out. Sure it might be well intentioned but the moment you start down the path of "Women, you need to watch out cause men do this" you've taken a retrograde step.
What the hell man. It even seems that you do need to calm the frak down. Apart from Nuke's mysanthropy and some strange disagreements, I'd say that most of the thread shows that people *do* understand the problem very well. What probably irks some people is this notion that only women get the "you're so sensitive" treatment. I have no problems with highlighting this problem as mostly a feminine one. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't.I had a different reaction from reading the response to this thread, and redsniper may be reading the same thing too.
Hell, I tend to find that taking something that happens to everyone and elevating it to a "Woman's problem" is actually just as patronisingly sexist as the behaviour it's trying to stamp out. Sure it might be well intentioned but the moment you start down the path of "Women, you need to watch out cause men do this" you've taken a retrograde step.
The consequences of this behavior are not evenly distributed. As far as our empirical investigation right now can ascertain - and bear in mind that like all scientific belief it is subject to updating - women on average get hit harder by a broad spectrum of fairly subtle behaviors, like stereotype threat. This is not a problem linked to any particular defect in women; it's a product of the interaction between cultural information about women and fundamental traits of the human mind. All humans receive cultural instruction to some extent, and cultural instruction contains a lot of bad code along gender lines. Men also suffer, though!
What the hell man. It even seems that you do need to calm the frak down. Apart from Nuke's mysanthropy and some strange disagreements, I'd say that most of the thread shows that people *do* understand the problem very well. What probably irks some people is this notion that only women get the "you're so sensitive" treatment. I have no problems with highlighting this problem as mostly a feminine one. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't.I had a different reaction from reading the response to this thread, and redsniper may be reading the same thing too.
I saw it as those who only nitpicked the article for targeting women as saying that there is little/no bias between genders, and it should only be a jerk vs. non-jerk argument. Also, how those that attack the merits of the article seem to think that feminists want to turn society into a matriarchal society or give women special privileges. The dismissal of the article in its entirety seems to say that how society treats women should stay the same because everything is okay except for jerks, which was a bit disappointing for the most part. I believe that ignoring the gender inequality and believing that we have reached a point where genders are fair is ignoring reality and reinforcing the biases within society for both men and women.
However, I think HLP is actually doing better. Comparing now to 2010 (I think that was the year of the incident [I wanna nominate that thread to be Classic'd because it is a great influence in HLP thinking for me and hopefully many others]), we are gradually moving forward. Battuta was a huge inspiration for me and opened my eyes to reality. I made the thread so that I can gauge how much HLP has changed and to see if it can improve further. I think we can.
When creating the thread, I thought about naming it "A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not 'Irrational'" so that it had a more HLP flair but opted not to.
If you search for 'battuta, goober, feminism' you should be able to find it. I don't recall many of the specifics anymore, but I'd be interested to give it another read if anyone finds the link to it. I would advise whoever stumbles upon my handful of posts on that thread to disregard them - I was a bit younger and had little idea of what I was talking about.
... I would advise whoever stumbles upon my handful of posts on that thread to disregard them - I was a bit younger and had little idea of what I was talking about.See! HLP has progressed since 2010!
... I would advise whoever stumbles upon my handful of posts on that thread to disregard them - I was a bit younger and had little idea of what I was talking about.See! HLP has progressed since 2010!
e: *poof*
Hey Nuke? You're a perfect demonstration of my biggest pet peeve in the universe: people who think they're legitimately wise or sophisticated because they're cynical and pessimistic. Oh, so all you saw from this article was that people are dicks to each other? That all you took? Then why bother with all the pretense of thought in your responses? You should have just said "I think people are dicks and I will reduce everything I learn to this belief of mine, so carry on everyone. I don't care." Well, not that exact wording, because then you'd sound like a man entirely fueled by mental laziness, but I think you get the gist of it.
We're going to keep caring about things like morality, equality, stripping away the prejudices that we've built in our heads to see what's really there, trying to live lives that are actually "interesting" and "worthwhile", just as you're going to keep sitting on your chair using your brain for absolutely nothing except for convincing yourself that your disdain of everything somehow makes you superior. So please, please just do what you keep advising us to do: don't bother. Or at least just shut up for a while.
Yeah, you pick up where I left off. It's tiring dealing with all those negative vibes, you can take over for me :)The fact that you're agreeing with Vega here is rather ironic, given your comments in a certain other thread.
Hey Nuke? You're a perfect demonstration of my biggest pet peeve in the universe: people who think they're legitimately wise or sophisticated because they're cynical and pessimistic. Oh, so all you saw from this article was that people are dicks to each other? That all you took? Then why bother with all the pretense of thought in your responses? You should have just said "I think people are dicks and I will reduce everything I learn to this belief of mine, so carry on everyone. I don't care." Well, not that exact wording, because then you'd sound like a man entirely fueled by mental laziness, but I think you get the gist of it.
We're going to keep caring about things like morality, equality, stripping away the prejudices that we've built in our heads to see what's really there, trying to live lives that are actually "interesting" and "worthwhile", just as you're going to keep sitting on your chair using your brain for absolutely nothing except for convincing yourself that your disdain of everything somehow makes you superior. So please, please just do what you keep advising us to do: don't bother. Or at least just shut up for a while.
Yeah, you pick up where I left off. It's tiring dealing with all those negative vibes, you can take over for me :)The fact that you're agreeing with Vega here is rather ironic, given your comments in a certain other thread.
And do you guys seriously not get Nuke's general world-view by now? Because there's no excuse for not doing so if you've been hanging around GenDisc for even a few months. Just take him at face value, and don't get into fruitless discussions that just waste your, his, and everyone else's time.
Hey Nuke? You're a perfect demonstration of my biggest pet peeve in the universe: people who think they're legitimately wise or sophisticated because they're cynical and pessimistic. Oh, so all you saw from this article was that people are dicks to each other? That all you took? Then why bother with all the pretense of thought in your responses? You should have just said "I think people are dicks and I will reduce everything I learn to this belief of mine, so carry on everyone. I don't care." Well, not that exact wording, because then you'd sound like a man entirely fueled by mental laziness, but I think you get the gist of it.
We're going to keep caring about things like morality, equality, stripping away the prejudices that we've built in our heads to see what's really there, trying to live lives that are actually "interesting" and "worthwhile", just as you're going to keep sitting on your chair using your brain for absolutely nothing except for convincing yourself that your disdain of everything somehow makes you superior. So please, please just do what you keep advising us to do: don't bother. Or at least just shut up for a while.
and lorric, shut it. if you cant take negative vibes, then dont live in this universe.
my way is just as ineffective as yours. so what if i break it all down to gross abstractions. you assume i dont care about morality and equality but i do. but then reality sets in, and i realize people will always be immoral, and true equality is a pipe dream. it doesn't matter if you care or notOh, so if everything can't be swept away in a day then it isn't worth doing anything about? At the very least you can affect a handful of lives you spend your time with on a daily basis. Even if you think things are totally hopeless, that doesn't mean you have to be a part of the sludge. That's enough to give this examination value. Better than neatly rearranging your mental refuse every day, for sure.
i can understand how your still in that 'change teh world' phase of life. it goes away when you get older.Did you actually think of that line on your own or did you just google "lame comebacks"? You sound like the ninth-grade class curmudgeon. I think we're done here.
What are you referring to?It's the only other active thread about a remotely-similar topic in here. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
What I don't get is he claims to hate a lot of the things he seems to be himself.Welcome to being human. Enjoy your stay. :p
He needs a good clocking every now and then.What are you referring to?It's the only other active thread about a remotely-similar topic in here. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out.QuoteWhat I don't get is he claims to hate a lot of the things he seems to be himself.Welcome to being human. Enjoy your stay. :p
In all seriousness, though, Nuke has admitted himself many times over the years that he has some pretty significant mental stuff going on. I daresay that most of us here take him fairly seriously when he speaks fondly of nuclear annihilation, and are perhaps comforted only by how unlikely it is that he'll ever be able to carry it out. You might not know that yourself if you haven't spent much time in here, but Mr. Vega's certainly been here long enough to be able to pick up on this, and to realize why the replies he's making are ultimately futile.
thats assuming i wont pull a shotgun on you. killing things is good therapy.Glad to see us keeping the ninth-grade loser theme going.
What are you referring to?It's the only other active thread about a remotely-similar topic in here. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out.QuoteWhat I don't get is he claims to hate a lot of the things he seems to be himself.Welcome to being human. Enjoy your stay. :p
In all seriousness, though, Nuke has admitted himself many times over the years that he has some pretty significant mental stuff going on. I daresay that most of us here take him fairly seriously when he speaks fondly of nuclear annihilation, and are perhaps comforted only by how unlikely it is that he'll ever be able to carry it out. You might not know that yourself if you haven't spent much time in here, but Mr. Vega's certainly been here long enough to be able to pick up on this, and to realize why the replies he's making are ultimately futile.
Yes. I do take that seriously. Keep him away from that big red button. Let's hope none like him ever get to push that big shiny red button.
Advice: don't take Nuke's mysanthropy seriously (take it as a running gag) and you'll be just fine. No offense intended Nuke, but I kinda like see you as the HLP's own Igor. And Igor* always made me laugh.
*in the same vein as Marvin.
I'm not entirely sure where this thread is anymore
I'm just glad I have never used one of those phrases while talking to any of the gals I knowQuoteYes. I do take that seriously. Keep him away from that big red button. Let's hope none like him ever get to push that big shiny red button.
Nuke already made it clear he doesn't like the idea of a big red button
Part of the way through the harvard IAT. Honestly gotta say that I don't like these kind of tests. the questions are to general or vague. I want to say "maybe" or "sometimes" or "its not that simple". I want more context to the questions. ..