Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on November 15, 2013, 10:10:21 pm
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24967042
"Spanish prosecutors are seeking a 20-month prison sentence for a professional pianist whose former neighbour is suing over alleged noise pollution."
They are also, apparently, looking for a 6 month ban on her playing professionally.
I.. really don't know what to say here. I can understand how someone practising every day can be infuriating for the neighbours, I'm a musician myself, so I always try to remain aware that not everyone wants to hear me working on stuff. But jail and a ban on playing professionally? Really?
Maybe Spain has turned from the country that loves music to the country that hates it whilst I wasn't looking?
-
What is the world coming to? Her neighbors should be glad that they can hear some actual music instead of dumb pop love songs you usually hear on radio.
-
The article was a little on the short side, so the problem isn't really well defined and the history isn't fleshed out enough.
That being said:
• Noise canceling headphones
• Earplugs
• Other music
• Sand barrier in walls - [either party could have done this]
• Noise cancellation foam - [health hazard depending on climate, expensive, not ideal]
• ****ing communicating and working out a schedule or something
There are multiple options to handle this that should have been explored before trying such punitive measures.
On the other hand, noise pollution is really annoying. If complaints were received continually and proper measures weren't being taken, I can see where the neighbors would have a case.
-
Appreciation of fine arts aside, I would like to point out that having to listen to musicians actually practicing (as opposed to performing) is not exactly the most relaxing experience. In fact, it can be really annoying. Infuriating, even, if you can't get away from it. No one wants to hear that all day erry day... and I think it is the musician's obligation to ensure that his work does not disturb other peoples' homes. If it's not possible to practice at home because of too much noise, then she should've arranged to practice elsewhere or switch to electric piano with headphones for home practice. 'Cause, you know, I assume she didn't actually perform on the same piano anyway that she practiced with at home... so the keyboard feel would be different anyway.
Didn't read the article, but I have a feeling that there's more to this story than "asshole music hating neighbour sues pianist"...
-
Unusual thing about where I live is that there are several musically inclined groups living within about 4 houses of each other, a rock band, a soul singer and a composer (me). The Rock band practice (loudly) most weekends, to the point where another couple in the street, who are retired, have moved forward their plans to sell up and move abroad because it's impossible to sit in the garden and enjoy the sun without hearing this band. So I do understand how this can be infuriating.
But, as has been mentioned before, a simple order banning her from practising at home and requiring she hire out a rehearsal room would have been a far better route to take than to start requesting over a year in jail. No matter how bad things got, it beggars belief that the person making the complaint should wait that long before taking legal action, and even more so that a custodial sentence should be demanded for it.
If it was that bad, the question that I want answered is 'What was done before this in order to deal with the problem?', because if it went from nothing to this, then something is seriously wrong with the system.
-
Sorry for the double post, but there's a bit more information on Yahoo...
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-prosecutor-defends-jail-time-pianist-162918175.html
Apparently her playing reached 40 Decibels, which isn't actually all that loud at all, it's about equivalent to the sound of the hum of a refrigerator, or a computer power supply. Whilst the claim that it went on for 8 hours a day might be a mitigating factor, it seems more like a case of terrible laws mixed with with asshole.
-
"prosecutors are seeking a 20-month prison sentence" I guess letting little details like this imprisonment not actually having happened yet get in the way of your sensationalist moralising about What Society Is Coming To would ruin the fun
-
What on Earth are you talking about? Pretty much everyone who has posted here has said that they'd like more information before 'moralizing' about anything...
And for those who are interested, here's a comparison chart for Decibels so you can get an idea of where the volume levels stand..
http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm
-
"Maybe Spain has turned from the country that loves music to the country that hates it whilst I wasn't looking?"
"What is the world coming to? Her neighbors should be glad that they can hear some actual music instead of dumb pop love songs you usually hear on radio."
Yeah this thread's just been brimming with nuance
-
Sorry for the double post, but there's a bit more information on Yahoo...
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-prosecutor-defends-jail-time-pianist-162918175.html
Apparently her playing reached 40 Decibels, which isn't actually all that loud at all, it's about equivalent to the sound of the hum of a refrigerator, or a computer power supply. Whilst the claim that it went on for 8 hours a day might be a mitigating factor, it seems more like a case of terrible laws mixed with with asshole.
Okay that is ****ing ridiculous. I have to deal with our asshole neighbors' dogs barking multiple times per day...does that mean I can get them locked up for two years too?
-
"Maybe Spain has turned from the country that loves music to the country that hates it whilst I wasn't looking?"
"What is the world coming to? Her neighbors should be glad that they can hear some actual music instead of dumb pop love songs you usually hear on radio."
Yeah this thread's just been brimming with nuance
Well, firstly, that has nothing to do with the line you quoted. Secondly, of course people are going to make comments like that in this situation, the question you quoted of mine was a rhetorical one, not a literal one, and the comment about music types was a single line in an entire thread, a personal opinion, and certainly not worth attacking the entire thread for. Don't take everything so literally as though it were a personal insult.
Anyway, back on topic :
@Mongoose: Yup, apparently the legal limit for musical instruments in Spain is 30Db, which is about equivalent to a desert at night, so even the initial law seems a bit crazy, I think it's a comedy of errors that has somehow got completely out of control.
The only question that remains in my mind is, was that value relative to the background noise or an absolute reading, usually these reading are absolute but if it was 40Db above background noise, that's a different level entirely, but I doubt that because it would put her piano at around Jet Fighter levels, since the Decibel curve is exponential.
-
This isn't dog barking or some someone using drills or jackhammers at night. No wonder Europe economy is falling apart, their laws are slowly getting more and more ridiculous that people used them to gain money from minor infringement. Man, I am happy when the kid next door is playing piano instead of some jerk playing hiphop at insane volume or whatever they called 'music' in the radio.
-
My own opinion is that it's a silly law that has allowed things to go way too far. It's impossible to say what the final judgement will be, so I can't comment on the outcome but it certainly seems that whatever the outcome is, there ought to be calls for measures to make sure things don't go to these kinds of extremes in search of a resolution.
-
"Maybe Spain has turned from the country that loves music to the country that hates it whilst I wasn't looking?"
"What is the world coming to? Her neighbors should be glad that they can hear some actual music instead of dumb pop love songs you usually hear on radio."
Yeah this thread's just been brimming with nuance
If you take the utterings of two different people as defining the tone of the entire thread, you REALLY need to work on your reading skills.
-
This isn't dog barking or some someone using drills or jackhammers at night. No wonder Europe economy is falling apart, their laws are slowly getting more and more ridiculous that people used them to gain money from minor infringement. Man, I am happy when the kid next door is playing piano instead of some jerk playing hiphop at insane volume or whatever they called 'music' in the radio.
no reactionary doomsayers in this thread, nosiree
-
No offense, but firstly that comment was made after your original claim, and secondly, you didn't claim there were reactionary doomsayers in the thread, you said there was sensationalist moralizing in it, and finally, your comments referred to the entire thread, not to a single post within it.
-
"prosecutors are seeking a 20-month prison sentence" I guess letting little details like this imprisonment not actually having happened yet get in the way of your sensationalist moralising about What Society Is Coming To would ruin the fun
I think we've all had quite enough of this sort of post. Take a week off from Gen Disc.
-
Not at all, I am just wondering why do they have a lot of time doing these kind of things, while the more important things, like taking care of their economy for example, can take the backseat.
-
Wtf, 40 dB is hardly audible. It sounds to me like when that law was made, no one consulted anyone who actually knew what a decibel is.
Normal speech is generally 60 dB... 40 dB is a whisper. :wtf:
-
Yeah, something seems awfully wrong with this information. Either the law was written really stupidly, or the sound level measurements are reported incorrectly, or someone really is being a total dick if they're suing someone for 40dB of music noise.
-
Prosecutors are often known for seeking sentences of less than 20 months for ASSAULT. This seems like a minor bylaw infraction at absolute worst. Good grief.
The public prosecutor had initially sought a jail term of over seven years for Ms Martin.
OK, Spain, WHAT THE ****?!
-
I say we nuke the site from orbit.
-
http://westvancouver.ca/sites/default/files/bylaws/NoiseControlBylawNo.4404%2C2005.pdf
Little reference I suppose for what a typical Noise By/law looks like (can't find the one for Spain which is apparently the Noise Act 37/2003)
The alleged victim said she now has such a horror of pianos, she cannot stand even seeing them in films, reports say.
Hahahahahahaha what?
The neighbor makes the pianist out like this guy with that exact piano
(http://screenshots.wegame.com/6-4958290775421055/4958290775421055_l.jpg)
-
Yeah, something seems awfully wrong with this information. Either the law was written really stupidly, or the sound level measurements are reported incorrectly, or someone really is being a total dick if they're suing someone for 40dB of music noise.
where the measurement is taken matters a lot. if you held the sound meter very close to the piano you would get a higher reading than if you held the meter outside the apartment. the reading should be done from the complainants residence or at the very least outside the apartment.
-
¡El respeto por los músicos esta muerto!
Seriously? While I can understand that the whole thing can reach a point where it might be necessary to get a police officer to mediate a dispute, seeking to throw someone in jail for twenty years over this is beyond a dumb-hole's event horizon.
-
*months
-
throwing insanely large numbers of people in jail for stupid **** is america's thing, i really dont know what spain is doing.
-
Actually, I have seen laws or rules concerning noise pollution in different areas have faulty bits. Last time I went for exhibition for my company and one of the rules said that any electronic medias should have noise of less than 30dB. When you go there, I think the aircon already make more noise that that, and I don't think anyone there have any idea what 30dB means.
-
30dB? My CD drive runs much louder than that. Heck, my cat's footsteps are probably louder (he's a very big cat, but still...). This is ridiculous, those numbers are certainly pulled out of you-know-where. I wonder though, isn't this stuff is taught in middle school? 30dB is on the edge of audibility.
-
Over-entitled whine-enabling professional-victim societies are over-entitledly whining in a professional victim way.
Yep, quite maddening.
-
Over-entitled whine-enabling professional-victim societies are over-entitledly whining in a professional victim way.
Yep, quite maddening.
You know I keep thinking there just has to be more to it.
This isn't someone looking for money, there's no talk of compensation here.
I also find it strange that a noise pollution charge in Spain makes UK news.
-
I think it made international news because of the fact that everyone feels there has to be more to it, that if this case were as presented it would be absolutely ridiculous. For example, from the Yahoo article :
Martin's parents became accessories when they carried out soundproofing work twice, but this failed to quell Bosom's complaints.
So by trying to take action to prevent the problem, her parents become accessories to it?
Basically, the whole thing comes across as a whole pile of Crazy, and despite trying quite hard to find more details in the English language, I can't find any details about this case that make it appear anything otherwise.
Maybe someone who can read Spanish will be able to get more details from local papers etc, but, as far as my language allows, I can find nothing to justify the directions this has gone in.
-
This isn't dog barking or some someone using drills or jackhammers at night. No wonder Europe economy is falling apart, their laws are slowly getting more and more ridiculous that people used them to gain money from minor infringement. Man, I am happy when the kid next door is playing piano instead of some jerk playing hiphop at insane volume or whatever they called 'music' in the radio.
Not at all, I am just wondering why do they have a lot of time doing these kind of things, while the more important things, like taking care of their economy for example, can take the backseat.
I vehemently dislike your posts in this thread for several reasons.
It implies that Spanish people fixing their economy is actually taking a backseat - it is not. In fact, Spain's economy is, according to the EU, pretty wel underway, nowadays, and from my brief time in that country, I noticed that everything there was in the theme of 'fixing the economy', up to and including the international football cup coverage.
It holds within it the ridicilous notion that the action of this judge is apperently a precedent for the entire country, even though it's just one case and it's not the judge's job to fix the economy - it's upholding the law.
It takes potshots at how ridicilous "Europe" is, and how ridicilous it's laws are, even though Europe is a aggegrate of over 20 countries whose inhabitants all speak different langauges, have different cultures, different laws, and for the last 2000 years have been in a more or less constant state of warfare, whilst this post treats them as one single entity and states them all as ridicilous based on one news source, which is only about spain, might just be only about a single region in span with a specific law, and of which we are not entirely source if the news from there is even accurate.
-
He would've been right criticizing ridiculous EU regulations (which are not hard to find), but in this case, it's a local issue. And it's either a case of insanity, terminal stupidity, or there's more to it than we know of. The only way it could be related to economy in any way would be if there was some monetary compensation involved, but it's not the case.
Also, it's a very good thing this gets public coverage. People should not end up in jail for practicing their art. It's analogous to why various cases of bigotry in Arab countries should get coverage. Because it's wrong and should not happen.
-
It holds within it the ridicilous notion that the action of this judge is apperently a precedent for the entire country, even though it's just one case and it's not the judge's job to fix the economy - it's upholding the law.
While I agree with you about many of your points, unless the justice system in Spain is enormously different from the systems I'm used to, it is not the job of the judge to bring a case, merely to resolve it. For all we know the judge might be the sanest person in this whole case. Again, unless Spain is very different there is likely to have been a whole chain of people who thought this was a worthy case before the judge even got involved. I know for certain there's a prosecutor.
-
There are plenty of ridiculous laws in every country, not just Spain. My state still has a law on the books making it illegal to have an erection in public. Good luck with that one.
-
And in Ohio, it is illegal for 6 or more women to be living together. And getting fish drunk.
http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/ohio
I don't think this case is representative of the whole country of Spain, nor do I think Spain is a microcosm of all of Europe or even the EU, just like how I wouldn't use Texas to represent all of the US and how the US shouldn't represent North America.
-
I don't think anyone is really holding the entirety of Spain responsible for whatever is happening here, there's a few generic statements, my own included that are somewhat tongue in cheek.
To be honest the idea that any Hispanic culture would ever grow to 'dislike' music is pretty unfathomable to me, Music is a massive part of any culture, but Latino/Hispanic culture is notably passionate about it, it's partly that which surprised me about this case.
I suppose the thing is that every country in the world does have silly rules in there somewhere, but if in the UK we actually tried to jail someone for, for example, defacing the Monarchs head on a coin or stamp, the Judge would probably shout at the CPS for wasting public money on something which really should never have made it to court. Since the article does not mention the Judges response to this case at all, and probably will not until he or she makes an official statement on it, this may be the case here as well, only time will tell.
And yes, this is nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, local laws such as this do not fall under the jurisdiction of the European Court at this level. If, however, she is thrown in jail, it might be part of the appeal process if things went that far, I'm not sure of the precise mechanism involved though, so I could be wrong.
Edit : Just changed references from Latino to Hispanic for accuracy.
-
I am not blaming the whole Spain, I am just blaming the idiocy of these people involved, and I know this is not an isolated incident, not only in Spain either but also other parts of the world. It is their attitude that needs to change, the laws could still be there but if people start at least use their brains and stop being so selfish-minded (being selfish is one thing, but being selfish-minded is another), I believe they can recover a lot faster than that.
If you ask me, actually a fine is more appropriate than a jail time and a ban, but how could such thing be punishable is still a headbanger for me.
Hispanic against music? I don't think so. I have seen many Spanish or at least Hispanic musicians that are great. It may be the culture, not the people.
-
Hispanic against music? I don't think so. I have seen many Spanish or at least Hispanic musicians that are great. It may be the culture, not the people.
Exactly, I was referring to why my comment in my first post of 'Maybe Spain has turned from the country that loves music to the country that hates it whilst I wasn't looking?' was intended as tongue in cheek, when it comes to Music, Hispanic cultures are probably among the most passionate and flamboyant about it, if that changed it would very nearly change the definition of the entire culture.
-
I also do not look at this as "those crazy spaniards" kind of story. I look at it from the angle of "those crazy humans have found another crazy loophole on a crazy situation and rendered it even more crazy" kind of story, which seems to happen everywhere one looks closely. It's part of the human condition.
-
I am not blaming the whole Spain, I am just blaming the idiocy of these people involved, and I know this is not an isolated incident, not only in Spain either but also other parts of the world. It is their attitude that needs to change, the laws could still be there but if people start at least use their brains and stop being so selfish-minded (being selfish is one thing, but being selfish-minded is another), I believe they can recover a lot faster than that.
I still do not see how this silly application of law is related to 'their' economy :blah:.
-
It's also denouncing quite an ignorant view of economics.
-
An app of mine says moderate rainfall is 50db. And Spain being a Mediterranean country and all. Imagine if they weren't so fervently catholic.
It reminds me of a story where a lawyer in the US tried to sue god for all the disasters inflicted on mankind.
It just hit me, maybe this law is a remnant from francoist Spain?
-
i think it has more to do with politicians sucking at math more than anything else. the very fact that they are horrible with money should attest to that.
-
I don't think annoying your neighbor with some musical noise is worth fingering them for 20 months and ****ing them over for 6. It's worth a warning from police at most, and if the warning no work, then definitely not 20 months and 6. This person is not a criminal, why treat them like such? I'm done here.
-
Imagine if they weren't so fervently catholic.
What the hell is this about? Spain isn't even remotely "fervently catholic" at all, and I really fail to see what this kind of analysis has to do with bad laws regarding music and noise.
-
spain != mexico