Author Topic: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1  (Read 24622 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
I agree with the first two points. I wonder though if adding beam cannons to FS1 would create balance issues. Clash of the Titans for instance. Arm the Tantalus with beams and that mission would become very, very, very difficult.

I always thought that Capella going kaput was a mistake on the part of the Shivans. It's implied that they had hundreds of ships in-system at that moment, seems a massive waste. I think the Sathanases slipped up, and the star was never supposed to explode at all.

Balance would be an issue, that is true, this is why I'd have to tweak the missions a bit.  Maybe keep the cap ships further apart from eachother, and give Alpha 1 and his fighter wings time to take out the heavy beam turrets on the enemy ship before it comes within firing range.  Other balance issues can be cleared by converting many of the terran and vasudan turrets into heavy laser cannons that inflict much heavier damage than the original FS1 iterations.  Have you ever seen how long it would take two cap ships to destroy eachother in FS1 without the aid of fighters?  Tweaking the laser cannons would allow two non-shivan ships to actually be a threat to eachother.  Also, by making the anti-fighter turrets less powerful, but have better tracking and a higher rate of fire, these ships actually become a threat to fighters as well.  At this point, cap ships in FS1 are simply big targets that aren't really scary.  The Beam cannons brang them to life in FS2, but by tweaking the laser cannons in FS1, we can bring the Terran and Vasudan ships to life as well, they just won't be as 'lively' (scary) as the shivan ships.

As far as Capella, I do think they clearly intended it.  We may not know what they were trying to do, but they obviously planned it out by the numbers.  Creating a supernova had a purpose besides just blowing up a star, and they were willing to sacrifice a great number of their comrades in the process.

BRANG = BROUGHT    :hopping:
eachother = each other...
terran = Terran
vasudan = Vasudan
The Beams = The beams


Other than the few mistakes in that post, I quite agree with you. I didn't see the reason for Shivan ships being so terrifying if their only advantage was their shields. Bigger ships such as, cruisers, transports, freighters, and destroyers (not Lucifer) had absolutely no advantage over their Terran and Vasudan counterparts. In FS1, the Typhon could wipe the floor with the Demon, but with beam cannons, the Typhon stands no chance. I believe adding beam cannons to FS1 would be good, but it should be an addition as some people don't have FS1 and just want to play it as it was, with no tweaks (except for bug fixes, of course).

 

Offline Cobra

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
A person in a spacesuit with a handgun can destroy the Sath if he/she attacks from the the right vector.

:wakka:

Are you serious? A handgun wouldn't even make a scratch in the kind of armor a Sathanas has. An AAAh would barely make a scratch, while a destroyer-class beam would probably make a small hole. Vectors, yes. But what are you going to do when the Sathanas decides to turn around and obliterate you with either its flak, beam, or laser cannons?

On the subject of stupid tech descriptions, how is the crappy Tsunami an Anti-Matter bomb? :doubt:

It was a good warhead in FS1,and V boys chose the anti matter thing bla bla to make it look cooler.

Um, no? Think of this for a minute: most science fiction games and shows have shown antimatter as a so-called "superpowerful" substance. Maybe in the Freespace universe it's not as powerful as we think it should be? And besides, the Tsunami is an anti-CRUISER bomb. The Harbinger is the one that's more of an anti-all-capital-ship-bomb. :)

They could have jumped to the Gamma Draconis node...

I agree. In the Freespace 1 era, scientists argued that the Shivans actually had no need for the jump nodes themselves. Those jump drives the Sathani were using were probably what aggravated the Capellan sun enough to make it go supernova. I was thinking that those so-called "weapons" that the Sathani were using were nothing more than some kind of vortex that may have enabled the Shivans to jump halfway across the galaxy into Gamma Draconis or some other obscure star system. Or, the devices were used to actually draw power from the Capellan sun for a long range jump to said star systems.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 06:06:45 pm by Cobra »
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Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Oh no!  :eek:  Not another forum grammar Nazi!  Correcting me while I'm posting while looking over my shoulder at work.  :hopping:

Anyway, what I was thinking is, if I have the time, or if somepeople want to help me (preferrable) just make an optional add-on the the Freespace port.  You can have it original style or this style, where the Shivans have Beam cannon, anti-fighter beams, and flak guns.  The Terrans' and the Vasudans' ships will have their stats changed, too.  The anti-fighter laser turrets would have an increased rate of fire, but each bolt would have a lower damage value.  The AI on these turrets would be increased, too, to allow it to track fast moving fighters better. 

Let's take the Orion, for example, FS2 version.  All of the Beam Cannons would be replaced by heavy laser cannons.  Possibly the animations would be changed a bit to show a big huge plasma bolt.  The damage value of this bolt would be enormous.  Not nearly as enormous as a beam cannon, but enough to probably instantly destroy a fighter and seriously damage even a heavy bomber if hit.  These heavy laser cannons would have very slow rates of fire, and I imagine the bolt itself traveling relatively slowly so wouldn't be used against fighters.  I picture a large explosion animation when it hits an object.  The flak guns would be replaced by anti-fighter turrets that would have the faster rate of fire and better tracking I just talked about, and the anti-fighter lasers would become the generic lasers we're used to in FS1.  All the other laser turrets that are left would stay as they are.  The reason I'd convert the anti-fighter turrets to generic lasers is because both are used against both fighters and capital ships in both games.

Now we look at a shivan ship, like the Lilith.  It would stay just like it's FS2 iteration except for I'd make all the beam weapons a bit less powerful to look like these weapons were a bit 'upgraded' since the Great War.  Also, I'd make the armor on all the turrets more weak.  Other than that, I'd make the FS1 Lilith identical to the FS2 one.  Now, all we'd have to do for balance is possibly set the ships farther apart to give the player enough time to take out the heavy beams on a Shivan ship, so critical allied warships aren't destroyed to easily.  The player would now be forced to focus on shivan beam turrets, but we're used to that in FS2.  Also, we might have to throw more wings on the players side to make it possible to assault these Shivan ships and survive.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Heil Herr Grammar!

I don't think that there were supposed to be beam weapons in FS1 at all. The only ships in FS1 with beam cannons were the SD Lucifer and the GTD Hades. I like it that way, but if the Shivans had all those beam weapons, they would be far more terrifying.

I may be able to help for about an hour each day, actually. However, I think that the Railgun and AF weapon is a bad idea. I think it would just be better if the fire rate, velocity and damage is raised, I have tried it for my TV war mod and it works well. An Orion - Typhon battle takes about 1 minute. It works and would require no changing of the weapons for the T/V ships. It also makes Cap Ships dangerous to fighters and bombers, while not being a complete and utter terror to them.

When INF:A comes out I'm going to make the Shivans evil.... :drevil:

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Oh no!  :eek:  Not another forum grammar Nazi!  Correcting me while I'm posting while looking over my shoulder at work.  :hopping:

Then install aspellfox and check your grammer.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Heil Herr Grammar!

I don't think that there were supposed to be beam weapons in FS1 at all. The only ships in FS1 with beam cannons were the SD Lucifer and the GTD Hades. I like it that way, but if the Shivans had all those beam weapons, they would be far more terrifying.

I may be able to help for about an hour each day, actually. However, I think that the Railgun and AF weapon is a bad idea. I think it would just be better if the fire rate, velocity and damage is raised, I have tried it for my TV war mod and it works well. An Orion - Typhon battle takes about 1 minute. It works and would require no changing of the weapons for the T/V ships. It also makes Cap Ships dangerous to fighters and bombers, while not being a complete and utter terror to them.

When INF:A comes out I'm going to make the Shivans evil.... :drevil:

That would help.  I could only do about an hour myself, but since I have no experience in modding, except for the occasional dabble in FRED or the TES Construction Set, it'll take me awhile, and your help would be appreciated. 

What I think is there's no continuity between FS1 and FS2.  If they had the rendering technology, I think they would have had beam cannons and flak guns in FS1.  There's no way it makes sense for both sides to be isolated from each other, but somehow independantly develop beam and flak technology and retrofit it on all their old ships and install it on their new ones just in the nick of time to reencounter each other is a bit far fetched.  Okay, it's not a bit far fetched, it's completly whacko.  By making FS1 Shivan ships have flak guns and beam cannons, it makes the whole story more continuous.

I think you're right about the how to do the Vasudan and Terran ships.  FS1 ships already have heavy lasers that are supposed to be primarily anti-cap ship weapons.  If we just increase their damage rate a bit, and increase the damage rating and fire rating of the other lesser turrets, it'll make the Vasudan and Terran ships more formidable.

For the Shivan warships, we can make them just like their FS2 counterparts, but we should make both the anti-fighter beams and the main beam cannons a bit less powerful and make the armor surrounding the turrets a bit more weak, and maybe do the same for the flak guns.  The reasoning for this is that the FS2 ships are upgraded with more effecient weapons and better armor.

From what I understand from Karajorma's FAQ, we could do most of this stuff as a table edit, and then hammer the balancing issues out by altering the missions slightly in FRED.  PM me on how you want to go about this and what you want me to do.  I'll basically let you be in charge since I'm the newbest of the newbs when it comes to modding.

 
Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
No, it's not. It's a huge amount of energy in real world, but I meant that the bombs (or actually their effects) in the game are ridiculously small compared to their claimed massive yields.

There's no way in universe that 5 Gigatons of TNT equvalent amount of energy released in small spot in very little time only has such pitiful effects as the Meson bomb... if that was where you referred to, I have a faint memory that it was claimed to yield 5 GT of TNT...


Anyway, if some don't know what a shaped charge is, it basically directs the explosive energy mainly into one direction - forwards throgh the unlucky hull that stopped the missile. This can be achieved by many means, but when we're talking about nukes using this effect, the system that directs the yield must be the most expensive and advanced part of the bomb.


Most of the destruction that is caused by a bomb in real life is caused by the shockwave, not the actual explosion. In space there is no atmosphere to carry to blast wave.

nope. things like the frag grenades kill by using sharpenels when they explode, and pierce people's flesh. its most effective because of its wide range. for anti vehicle artillery platforms its the explosions that kills, since tank armor barely take any notice to shockwaves. most anti tank guns are just armor piercing tracer guns that kill the crew inside the tank, explosives are difficult to use
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Excactly, when we are talking about conventional explosives.

Flashbangs are effective inside closed space, where the shockwave and the light can effectively... distract... enemies and make them temporarily unable to fight back. Outside, the effects of a shockwave itself are limited to very very limited area, and shockwaves in general do nothing against armored hulls of war machines.

Against living enemy, shrapnel is the most effective because it has a wide area of effect (120 mm mortar grenades have an effective kill radius of 100 metres if I remember right, and artillery grenades have even larger but elliptical area of effect). However, shrapnel, like shockwave, can't do much agains armored targets, so unless it's a direct hit even artillery can't do much against panzers.... direct hit on the roof *will* destroy a tank for sure, but that's quite far-fetched and nigh impossible to achieve.

Against armor, shaped charges are the way to go. Instead of releasing shrapnel they have a copper cone ahead of the charge, the open side of the cone pointing towards the targed. When the charge goes off, the explosion starts from the point of the cone, sending the point of the cone on its way forward at very high speed, and when the explosion proceeds towards outer edges of the cone, the cone becomes a sharp tipped piercing cloud of extra-hot fast copper particles that go very deep into RHA armour steel. This technique is used in every AT weapon there is - AT missiles like Javelin and Eurospike, and recoilless rifles.


When we talk about nuclear detonations, the shockwave indeed causes most destruction on wide area. On ground zero, however, the shockwave doesn't matter the slightest bit because it is formed there. The radiation heats everything around it into very high temperatures, melting and even vaporizing much of the matter near it. In the very center of the explosion, there even exists matter in plasma state, at least if it's a fusion bomb we're talking about.

This super-heated matter expands very rapidly, which creates the huge shockwave.

In space, the only matter the bomb has to heat is itself, and while it still would form an impressive shockwave of superheaded gaseous radioactive metal, that shockwave would disperse quite soon.

The most destructive part of a nuke in space would be the intense radiation that would vaporize warships' surfaces quite measurably, of course depending of the distance. But I guess FS and FS2 era ships are so hevaily shielded against radiation forms that it just has no effect.

So, I conclude that Freespace nukes and anti-matter bombs utilize one form of shaped charges, but instead of having a simple copper cone in the front of the charge, they probably consist of three parts:

1. The back portion of the missile, behind the payload. Contains propulsion and trajectory units.

2. The charge, either a nuke or anti-matter one.

3. Front cone, containing the piercing matter - possibly it even contains some anti-matter in itself. Also contains guidance systems.


When the missile reaches a point where it's still perhaps less than metre away from the target, the charge(s) detonate. The back portion of the missile is probalby constructed to reflect a big part of the detonation. One way to achieve this is to make the back portion very heavy, so that the detonation can't easily push it backwards, and thus more energy can be directed forwards, where the target is.

The lighter part in front of the actual charge plunges forward, becames a fastly deteorating cloud of superheated mass, and plunges through any hull structure imaginable.

If the front cone of the missile contains anti-matter in magnetic stasis, the magnetic stasis is destroyed when the cone hits the target at high speed. The anti-matter, though, still has momentum forwards, and it continues to go through the parts of the cone it meets, and eventually the hull of the target. On its way, it would react with ordinary matter in quite a destructive way.

Either standard piercing or anti-matter piercing would work, but AM has the advantage that ordinary matter just cannot be protected against it. It just destroys any kind of hull it touches, so only way to protect against AM is to get more width and mass onto hull, so it lasts longer under anti-matter attack, and the anti-matter cones can't penetrate deep enough to actually get through the hull.
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Offline Mathwiz6

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Anti matter is a hole  :nod: It's true.

If i wanted to blow a hole in a hull.... rail gun, + rail of anti matter, = not bad...

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Nothing beats ship-vanish. Pop, gone. :P

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Ship vanish?When do you use it?
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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
It's a FRED sexp. It causes a ship to just... vanish.... without explosions or subspace jumping. I've only seen it used in one campaign: Transcend. Although there it was accompanied by one of Ransom's fade-in/fade-out flashes.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
I've only seen it used in one campaign: Transcend.

Follow Kappa Wing in Mystery of the Trinity next time :)
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
It's a FRED sexp. It causes a ship to just... vanish.... without explosions or subspace jumping. I've only seen it used in one campaign: Transcend. Although there it was accompanied by one of Ransom's fade-in/fade-out flashes.

:lol: Do you want to teach ME Fred? :lol:
I mean with that post,sometimes I prefer setting a departure cue with no warp effect.

I've only seen it used in one campaign: Transcend.

Follow Kappa Wing in Mystery of the Trinity next time :)

And Kappa 3 during the Pegasus field testing...
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