[Flaser]

On principles
I'm fundamentally disagreeing with Mika on the usefulness of a PA/PS (power armor/power suit), but I can't help but fully agree with his approach toward the problem: functional and to the point sci. equations.

Hard data
There are hell a lot of assumptions flowing around, a little research would do us a lot of good.
A couple of months ago I read a pdf paper that detailed all the different powered armor/suit designs financed by the US.

There were several different solutions in development for the portable powersource problem, what I remember included:
-the smallest gas turbine ever developed
-fuel cells
-a hydraulic approach

I'll try to find the pdf once again, will post a link when I do.

Avensues of Meaningful Discussion
If we're discussing the role and capabilities of the PA/PS systems; we're hoodwinking ourselves into preset-conclusions since the two things go hand in hand. The role dictates the capabilities the PA/PS requires, while the capabilities lay out what roles the PA/PS could be employed in.

So for a meaningful a progressive discussion we need to address the two issues separately, and then try to mate the scenarios we come up with to find realistic possibilities.

Roles for PA/PS systems

• Utility
  • Transport
    • Except for extremely inaccessible terrain, the sheer maintenance cost of operating such a complicated piece of machinery (any sufficiently nimble system will be mechanically a lot more complex then your run of the mill automobile) will make such a role unlikely.
    • When it is still used, the PS will have to deal with extreme terrain. Things that come to mind are in the mountains, swamps, or very dense undergrowth.
    • The PS will need a great endurance since resupply or maintenance will be hard to come by in such circumstances. Rugged, crude designs should be preferred
    • A sealed environment for the operator is also likely. Mountainous regions will require a thermal seal, swamps an airtight one against water, sludge and mosquitoes. Forest models could do without this feature.
              Summary: niche role, high load bearing, low maintenance
  • Powerloader/Lifter in a Maintenance/Resupply Station
    • This application doesn't need a portable power source, as the maintenance post can provide local power.
    • No need for environmental protection as the maintenance are can already provide that
    • No need for very high endurance as maintenance is already at hand
    • Doesn't need high movement or reaction speed
    • Precision and high strength are required
              Summary: most likely immediate application, low requirements, high usefullness
• Combat Utility
  • Ammo Carrier
    • The high load bearing of a PA makes it well suited for such a role, it can hoard great amounts of ammunition, from the supply/escort-vehicles to the infantry in actual firing positions; thereby reducing risk to the ammo carriers by achieving the same job in fewer runs.
    • The capacity for better armor as well as being capable of carrying armored ammo boxes makes a volatile operation better survivable
    • High demands on either heavy armor or nimbleness, the first more likely as this isn't a direct frontline application; as a result there is a high power requirement on the power source.
    • Extended endurance is a not requirement, as the resupply source can also replenish the PA's fuel reserves.
    • Easy replenishment and ease of in-situ service and/or operation are high demands. This ease of use is IMHO the greatest obstacle for this role.
              Summary: Niche role with moderate development difficulties, high R&D costs may restrict to later PA/PS generation
  • Field Medic
    • The high load bearing may enable field-use of heavy/bulky medical equipment including resuscitation and monitoring equipment. Limited in-situ surgery is also possible.
    • Heavy suspension to protect sensitive equipment is a must.
    • Heavy armor may also be necessary.
    • Heavy field-endurance may be necessary.
              Summary: A very likely role with high development difficulties, high R&D costs may restrict to later PA/PS generation.
  • Rescue and Evacuation
    • The high load bearing capacity is well suited to carrying. With little or no requirements on specailized equipment the PA/PS system is extremely suited to the role.
    • Since operation requires neither battlefield endurance or high nibleness, the application has low requirements compared to other roles.
              Summary: A very likely role with low development difficulties, a very likely initial role.

[/list][/list]

[NGTM-1R]

I like how nobody read my post.

[Mefustae]

I like how nobody read my post.

I would have thought you'd be used to it by now.


...

[TrashMan]

There are a few revolutionary materials  in development that have simply amazing defensive properties and would make one hell of an armor

[redsniper]

There are a few revolutionary materials  in development that have simply amazing offensive properties and would make one hell of a bullet

Be more specific Trash. What materials?

[BloodEagle]

-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_5

As for the armor portion of the arguement....


READ ME!!!!
http://www.liquidmetal.com/technology/default.asp

[jr2]

Nice. 

[TrashMan]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=447631&in_page_id=1965

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=25636

[Mika]

I like how nobody read my post.

Are you sure you want me to comment it?

Flaser, that is a good list of the possible applications. As a support system, or a heavy lifter it could work, but on the other hand the military crates tend to be of a shape which is difficult to lift if you only have one person (point of support), even though they might not weight so much. In the support vehicles, there are some cranes and winches already to move the difficult shaped and heavy systems.

I disagree about the field medic part, while it might easily carry the wounded man away, it probably would have difficulties in reaching it. Anything like that would draw fire, and because the ambulances tend to become used as ammo transports, there wouldn't even be a reason not to shoot it. And if the wounded solidier is already carried away from the front line, you could use ambulance as well with much better efficiency.

Search and rescue missions I also find unlikely, since it should cause less surface pressure than a man or existing tracked vehicles in order to become successful. And because S&R missions generally might happen under difficult weather conditions, some protection for the pilot is needed.

Bloodeagle:
--------------
The stated 120 lbs (is that about 40 kgs?) is probably the standard marching weight of the equipment carried by single soldier. That includes the rucksack which contains, for example, a sleeping bag and lots of clothes and stuff you especially wanted to carry. The actual combat load is around 15-20 kgs, and even then you probably would like to remove all the non-essential stuff when the assault is about to begin.

Also, how exactly would you generate such a wave that would cancel the incoming wave from inside the armor with already tight space requirements? And even if this could be done, if I now understood correctly, you are talking about summing two propagating mechanical waves together at a certain point in the armor, and the latter wave is a negation of the first wave? While the sum rightfully is zero at a certain point, it will certainly not be zero elsewhere. But again, I'm still not sure if I understood this thing correctly.

------------

My opinion of the military applications of the suit, as stated before, is that developing something like with the current level of technology would result in overly expensive system which would not provide much use in the combat situation. Also, it would probably speed up the development of the area scan equipment, like ground radars, which would lead to early detection of the incoming wave of these suits. The funds could be used in better places in US Army. Note that I never said it wouldn't have obvious medical applications, and in that case I'm all for the research.

Mika

[Mika]

Regarding the recently posted articles... if this thing really is taken by US army, watch the defence budget sky-rocket.

Still, even with the light of the articles I'm not really convinced.

Mika

[übermetroid]

Welcome to Roughnecks.

-RAZAK'S ROUGHNECKS!

 

That's Rasczak. And yes, this is presents the first few steps towards Starship Troopers-style powered armour exosuits. Hopefully one day we'll have fully or at least partially autonomous armed forces, removing much of the tragedy from modern warfare.

Lame.  I dont want autonomous suits.  I want to be in the suits fighting.

[Flaser]

I like how nobody read my post.

Are you sure you want me to comment it?

Flaser, that is a good list of the possible applications. As a support system, or a heavy lifter it could work, but on the other hand the military crates tend to be of a shape which is difficult to lift if you only have one person (point of support), even though they might not weight so much. In the support vehicles, there are some cranes and winches already to move the difficult shaped and heavy systems.

I disagree about the field medic part, while it might easily carry the wounded man away, it probably would have difficulties in reaching it. Anything like that would draw fire, and because the ambulances tend to become used as ammo transports, there wouldn't even be a reason not to shoot it. And if the wounded solidier is already carried away from the front line, you could use ambulance as well with much better efficiency.

Search and rescue missions I also find unlikely, since it should cause less surface pressure than a man or existing tracked vehicles in order to become successful. And because S&R missions generally might happen under difficult weather conditions, some protection for the pilot is needed.

Bloodeagle:
--------------
The stated 120 lbs (is that about 40 kgs?) is probably the standard marching weight of the equipment carried by single soldier. That includes the rucksack which contains, for example, a sleeping bag and lots of clothes and stuff you especially wanted to carry. The actual combat load is around 15-20 kgs, and even then you probably would like to remove all the non-essential stuff when the assault is about to begin.

Also, how exactly would you generate such a wave that would cancel the incoming wave from inside the armor with already tight space requirements? And even if this could be done, if I now understood correctly, you are talking about summing two propagating mechanical waves together at a certain point in the armor, and the latter wave is a negation of the first wave? While the sum rightfully is zero at a certain point, it will certainly not be zero elsewhere. But again, I'm still not sure if I understood this thing correctly.

------------

My opinion of the military applications of the suit, as stated before, is that developing something like with the current level of technology would result in overly expensive system which would not provide much use in the combat situation. Also, it would probably speed up the development of the area scan equipment, like ground radars, which would lead to early detection of the incoming wave of these suits. The funds could be used in better places in US Army. Note that I never said it wouldn't have obvious medical applications, and in that case I'm all for the research.

Mika

The surface pressure is a pretty easy thing to solve - you just put a big foot on it, that distributes the force. However if you meant absolute force, than yes; an anassisted man puts less overall strain on the collapsed structure.

The critical factor in S&R is that this could be the first heavy lifter at hand with a sufficient degree of dexterity that it could greatly improve your performance.

On the other hand, the very same interface the suit uses could be adapted for a small crane, so it wouldn't be the only option.

[Mika]

I think actually both are important. Lower surface pressure prevents the system from sinking and low weight will prevent it causing torque and structural withstandability effects. The surface area is not so easy to solve, as the human doesn't walk so naturally with larger feet. The pilot would be required to walk lifting his knees more upwards during each step. Also, the suits would require the pilot to walk in a legs slightly spread position, otherwise the weight would be distributed unevenly to the corners of the suit's feet.

Mika