Author Topic: Automakers get bailed out  (Read 5467 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
Exactly. Since when was the US founded on a system where the government would bail out corporations and not give a stuff about everyone else?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
It wasn't.  And I never said I wanted it to be that way.  I'd much rather have some sort of loan availability across the board as a fallback, provided it was properly and responsibly managed.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
This might be semantics, but if government gives a company a loan, then the company is partly owned by the government, at least in my eyes. That is nationalization without saying the n-word.

I think there are no grey shades in this thing. Either government owns a part of company or it doesn't.

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Offline chief1983

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
Yeah but they're only owned by the government until they pay back the loan.  If the car companies can become viable, they pay back the loan and go on.  In an ideal economy the credit system wouldn't be so tight and the companies wouldn't be having so much trouble right now.  In an ideal economy, we could afford to let one or even two of them go bankrupt and allow them the chance to restructure, and in the end probably bring back a lot of the workers they laid off, and a lot of the others would not have too much trouble reentering the workforce in other places.  But with unemployment being at its worst in decades, the banks refusing to loan money, etc, it just doesn't seem like we can handle this kind of fallout right now.

Then you have the lies spreading on both sides of the table.  The media blames the UAW for the cost to employ factory workers, and to some extent they're right, but the $72/hour figure they're throwing around is grossly inaccurate (GM had printed this in some anti-union material but later retracted the figure, without providing a new one).  I've yet to be able to find the correct figures for certain for both Toyota and the Big 3 averages, but the $72 figure includes costs of retired employees spread across the active ones.  However, even the UAW claims that it has managed to elevate the status of its members from the lower class, through the middle class and into the upper middle class, even those with only a high school degree.  That's bull****.  No company should be expected to provide its main work force that kind of prosperity.

But you can't just point the blame at them.  The management and decision makers have failed again at reading the market and providing people with what they want, or at least convincing the public that's what they're doing.  You don't even have to actually do it, you just have to start a better marketing campaign than your competition.  If you ask me, they need to hire AB's brand-building team (now that Brito and InBev will probably be getting rid of them) and get to work at changing their image in the public's eye.  Instead, they just allow this belief that all they do is build gas guzzlers, and let people go on thinking that they are becoming increasingly irrelevant in both the national and world market.  It shouldn't be that way.  No, we'll just fly into Washington on our expensive jets, flashing the fact that we make 6 times more money than the typical Japanese CEO and have the audacity to ask for more money.

So you see, I have a hard time even coming to an opinion on this matter.  I thought I knew what I wanted the other day, and the more I read, the more I feel almost sorry for our politicians.  The only real thing I can think of that matters is, do you think the car companies can become viable enough again, to pay back any loan.  If so, then give them what they need.  If not, don't.  You're just pissing on a bonfire then.  The fact is though, even though the Senate Republicans have managed to stop its passage, Bush and friends are going to dig the money out of TARP anyway.

God, I almost feel like this post should have a bibliography.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
Quote
So you see, I have a hard time even coming to an opinion on this matter.  I thought I knew what I wanted the other day, and the more I read, the more I feel almost sorry for our politicians.  The only real thing I can think of that matters is, do you think the car companies can become viable enough again, to pay back any loan.  If so, then give them what they need.  If not, don't.  You're just pissing on a bonfire then.  The fact is though, even though the Senate Republicans have managed to stop its passage, Bush and friends are going to dig the money out of TARP anyway.

First semantics, if companies cannot pay back loan, what do they offer in return? If nothing, that isn't a loan. It is giving away money.

Otherwise, what you suggested is reasonable and is exactly what I would do. I would probably add the condition that the current management will be sacked in any case and new management would be elected by the company workers, but that's just me.

Mika

EDIT: What is it with "to" and "do" that I constantly write them in exactly the wrong way?
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
I was just reading the auto bailout died in the senate.......so were there two different bailouts going on here?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
The bailout bill Congress was working on passed the House but died in the Senate.  I think the administration is trying to put together some sort of stopgap measure on their own based on whatever previous bailout funds they have at their disposal, but I don't know where that's going.

  

Offline Kosh

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Re: Automakers get bailed out
From my original article:

Quote
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Tuesday signed into law a mammoth spending bill to keep the government running until early March 2009 that includes a $25 billion loan package for troubled automakers.


So he did sign something into law, part of it being a bailout for the automakers, so it looks like this was the stopgap.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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