Author Topic: Smoke?  (Read 16113 times)

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Offline pecenipicek

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I really don't want to offend anybody here, but are any of those who have tinkered with the FS code professional software developers, or at least software engineering students who knew what they did? :wtf:

A "Software Engineering" degree is in no way a guarantee of perfection. Even professionals can "screw up". And you got plenty of examples for that.


p.s.: I would even go as far as saying that "software engineering" is really useless in the industry, even though I was trained as one.
read through this... http://www.sampioni.com/en/zasto_sampioni.htm
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Offline chief1983

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What do you mean you were 'trained' as a software engineer?  Are you referring to an SE2004 type of program or just something the local community college called 'Software Engineering'?  My job title is technically software engineer, but it's a bit misleading because we don't really do a whole lot of 'engineering' with our applications.  That's what karx is talking about I think.  Saying it's useless...I don't even know what to think of that.  I weep for you, honestly I do.  True software engineering is the only thing that could save the industry, and employers need to be able to see Software Engineer and have it actually mean something, same as if you were a civil engineer or a mechanical engineer or whatever.  But right now everyone just gets a computer science degree, which is probably more useless in the industry than a software engineering degree would be, if it were really engineering.
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Offline Flipside

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Most of my degree has focussed on the important of design and encapsulation, of keeping each part of the program seperate so that you can alter one part without having to change everything that relates to it. Stuff like UML really helps with those sorts of concepts.

 
Most of my degree has focussed on the important of design and encapsulation, of keeping each part of the program seperate so that you can alter one part without having to change everything that relates to it. Stuff like UML really helps with those sorts of concepts.

As my degree was, actually. UML is a really powerful tool. But it is NOT the panacea of all software development. What they don't teach you is that, no matter how powerful you "modeling" tools and theories are, there will always be something that you overlook, forget, don't have enough time to implement, whatever...  The "why" is simple, the word "model" means a "conceptual representation of a phenomenon" (as my Physics professor put it), most of the time "a simplification of reality" (ESPECIALLY in Physics). And, as such, imperfect. :)
Because one thing is an UML diagram, another is going from THAT, to a complete product.  :) And, maybe it's just my experience which has been "bad", but that process can be quite of a shock. Nothing that I couldn't overcome, but it took time.

So, my point being, bashing someone's code just because it hasn't an UML diagram attached is bogus.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 12:20:00 pm by CmdKewin »
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Swiss 1st Fleet, Sector 32 - Ore Belt - Sol
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"I'm an engineer!"

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SimCity Fan: SC 2000 is still the best
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Offline Flipside

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Agreed, my main project was initially designed without the need for editing software even considered, and then as it progressed, it became obvious that an editor system was vital, because objects referenced other instances of objects, so it's perfectly possible to create a UML system that is, in essence, nothing like the finished product.

It's always a good place to start in my opinion, however, abstracting a whopping create big idea up into lots of little ideas can go a long way towards relieving the burden of trying to think of a program as one huge homogeneous lump, and start the coder thinking about it as lots of 'little' programs all linked together and interacting.

I've not looked at the FS2 source, so I'm not really stating an opinion on it, or on the coders who designed it, and, it should always be borne in mind the FS2 code wasn't designed to be updated as it has done by the SCP, but certainly for larger projects, where several coders may be required to work on or maintain the code for several years to come, engineering is a very important factor, though, in defence, a very large percentage of games software isn't designed to be treated like that, things like the Quake engine are an exception, rather than a rule.


 

Offline chief1983

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I'm just saying that complex code needs to be blueprinted somehow the same way you would with any other type of engineering.  You wouldn't trust a skyscraper that someone just started building without doing the legwork first, and code should be done the same way.
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Offline Sushi

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I do agree that it would be good to see more university-level programs that focused on Software Engineering, for those who just want to focus more on designing/writing solid software and aren't as interested in the theoretical nuts and bolts. That said, I resent the idea that Computer Science is a useless discipline because it does place so much emphasis on theory. Those algorithms have to come from somewhere. :D Sure, much of that theoretical stuff isn't immediately applicable to most software tasks, but for some of the very coolest ones, it's vital.

 

Offline Flipside

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In some ways, I actually prefer software design to the actual coding :nervous:

One thing I do like about UML is that I'm experienced in Java, but a complete novice in C++, that's not a problem if you've engineered the software however, because once I get more experienced at C++, having the system pre-designed will (mostly) make life a lot lot easier if I want to convert from one language to another.

 

Offline chief1983

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I didn't say it's useless though, but it's near useless in the industry, because you need engineers typically more than you need scientists, unless you're staffing the R&D department.  Engineering is the application of science, and it needs to be more clearly split.
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline karx11erx

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I really don't want to offend anybody here, but are any of those who have tinkered with the FS code professional software developers, or at least software engineering students who knew what they did? :wtf:

A "Software Engineering" degree is in no way a guarantee of perfection. Even professionals can "screw up". And you got plenty of examples for that.


p.s.: I would even go as far as saying that "software engineering" is really useless in the industry, even though I was trained as one.
This is so clueless and even stupid that it was hard to bring myself to even write this sentence in reply.

read through this... http://www.sampioni.com/en/zasto_sampioni.htm
What exactly are you trying to tell us by linking there? That stuff there is immature, exaggerated, and these guys are still sobbing from the "great injustice" that they had to bear in their past. All I can say is that there are very few - I actually dare to say: no - people of the kind they describe in the company I work for, and that goes right through to the very management.


blackhole,

hands-on experience only gets you so far. You will have a hard time to expand beyond certain preconceptions of yours, or break through limits in your understanding, intellectual capacity or time. There are concepts regarding good software engineering or coding etc. that have been developed and proven to be working by very smart people, and it is a good idea to apply such concepts. That encompasses all stages and processes in the creation of a piece of software.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 04:18:32 pm by karx11erx »

 

Offline blackhole

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blackhole,

hands-on experience only gets you so far.
You know, that's probably why I said this:

hands-on experience is no substitute.
Please read my post carefully before replying.

 

Offline karx11erx

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So upset when I basically confirmed you, staying completely polite?

Time to leave. Happy mud slinging.

 

Offline chief1983

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You silly little boobs, you just couldn't leave well enough alone could you.  Oh well, I didn't think he'd have the energy to help much anyway after doing D2X-XL but you all just had to grab that little hanging thread and unravel the whole sock.    :sigh:
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

  

Offline Flipside

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Well, in all fairness, I think Karx somewhat over-reacted to the situation, but nonetheless, this has become Drama, and is therefore lockéd.