Author Topic: moral relativism can suck it  (Read 15653 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
We're no longer tied to optimizing our fitness.

We are not?

The majority of us still choose the better option to increase our survivability.
Sure, we are choosing, but there's a cloaked hand behind our choices, every day we wake up and we can choose to have a nice breakfast or jump out of the window, and yet (for most of us) we don't even THINK about the second choice, see that, not even crossing my mind for a split second there.
equally, pushing someone off the window ledge to decrease intraspecific competition for mates and noms doesn't cross our minds either (unless the person in question is an asshole)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
I'm afraid we have a conscience just to be better survivors.

Of course we now have cognitive capabilities and can decide what to do with ourselves. We're no longer tied to optimizing our fitness. We can decide that morality is important because we say it's important. So no reason to be scared.

Does that count as "free will?" Sounds like it to me, if I understand what you're saying here.

Conscious decision making does not equate to free will, because such decisions are made within a context created by the biological parameters I've already discussed.  Battuta is referring to conscious decision making.

Free will is traditionally thought as the ability to make ANY decision from the available pool of limitless possibilities and attempt to carry it out.  It has a quasi-religious connotation because it is frequently used as an excuse for why a deity of choice permits bad things to occur.  Free will in this sense, however, does not exist.  I could no more choose to go out and massacre the inhabitants of my neighborhood than I could cause my physical form to spontaneously manifest on the moon - I have a conscience, personal morality, ability to comprehend potential outcomes, and conscious decision making ability.  While conscious decision making (and self-awareness) permit every person the illusion of free will, the gene-behaviour-environment interactions I discussed earlier limit the pool of available choices from infinite to a very narrow subset based upon who we have become as people through those interactions in our evolutionary ancestry and our personal development from conception.

Thus, the illusion - "I could, but I won't because."  The fact that humans are self-aware makes us think we aren't constrained in our behaviour, but the truth is that we are - morality and a conscience are two of the ways biology successfully masks our inability to choose from the infinite pool.  We have evolved those two mental characteristics over time to allow us to function as a species with collective societies.  What our social morality/conscience actually says to each individual is of comparatively little importance compared to the end product of formation of groups with similar morality.  This is why that, among groups with a shared morality, individuals with different moral codes are often shunned, segregated, and in many societies outright killed - they challenge the social norms and cooperation of the group.  That's also part of the reason why it is so difficult to force change in particular behaviours among religious groups (see:  treatment of women in fundamentalist Islamic/Christian/Jewish cultures).
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Offline Rodo

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
I'll cite myself, thank you.

Every day we wake up and we can choose to have a nice breakfast or jump out of the window, and yet (for most of us) we don't even THINK about the second choice, see that, not even crossing my mind for a split second there.

If that's not enough, then I'll ask why is it that the world population only seems to grow.


Now I'm starting to feel that tomorrow I might think just for a second on this other stupid option  :p

el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
Interesting perspective, thanks.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
I'll cite myself, thank you.

Every day we wake up and we can choose to have a nice breakfast or jump out of the window, and yet (for most of us) we don't even THINK about the second choice, see that, not even crossing my mind for a split second there.

If that's not enough, then I'll ask why is it that the world population only seems to grow.

Now I'm starting to feel that tomorrow I might think just for a second on this other stupid option  :p

failed

go back to this post and try again:

We're no longer tied to optimizing our fitness.

We are not?

The majority of us still choose the better option to increase our survivability.

looooool

cite (you won't be able to)

it's of course still an influence, we're not going to make arbitrary decisions, but our moral systems are definitely not fitness-optimized because the timescales they operate on are far too short

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
Agreed.

I cannot battle with you 'tutta  :D
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
you're not wrong that of course our behavior is still influenced by our evolutionary heritage - nobody here would argue differently - but you're definitely wrong that every decision we make is fitness-optimized, because evolution doesn't work on the timescales our cognition does

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
'Free will' as a nucleus of acausal purely arbitrary decisionmaking ability does not exist. 'Free will' as I think zookeeper might put it, the ability to make a decision based on the sum of our instincts, experience, history, instantaneous environmental factors, biology, and cultural context - with perhaps an element of pseudorandomness introduced by chaotic systems - probably does.

Kinda. My main point is that my instincts, experience, biology etc define me; if I choose to not push you out the window then whatever brain activity it was that made me choose that is part of me, and therefore the choice was still internal (that is: mine), not forced upon me by external forces. If an external force causes me to do or not do something, then that external force doesn't constrain me, it changes me.

It's called compatibilism.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
Yes. Though I'd add the qualification that all forces are ultimately 'external' in that the brain has no intrinsic information content beyond that provided by its DNA-coded structure. But I agree with what I think you're saying.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
you're not wrong that of course our behavior is still influenced by our evolutionary heritage - nobody here would argue differently - but you're definitely wrong that every decision we make is fitness-optimized, because evolution doesn't work on the timescales our cognition does

To complete, as I sense this is not really understood by some judging from some of the replies, note that fitness doesn't necessarily mean survival.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
It scares the **** out of me, cause I like to believe that we have conscience for something else rather than just being better survivors.

The alternative, that we were deliberately given one by an egocentric deity that spies on your sex life, scares the **** out of me more. :p
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Offline Snail

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
It scares the **** out of me, cause I like to believe that we have conscience for something else rather than just being better survivors.
The alternative, that we were deliberately given one by an egocentric deity that spies on your sex life, scares the **** out of me more. :p
just think of the universe as a giant reality tv show and it starts making sense

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
It scares the **** out of me, cause I like to believe that we have conscience for something else rather than just being better survivors.
The alternative, that we were deliberately given one by an egocentric deity that spies on your sex life, scares the **** out of me more. :p
just think of the universe as a giant reality tv show and it starts making sense

I think that's the scariest alternative yet proposed.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
It scares the **** out of me, cause I like to believe that we have conscience for something else rather than just being better survivors.
The alternative, that we were deliberately given one by an egocentric deity that spies on your sex life, scares the **** out of me more. :p
just think of the universe as a giant reality tv show and it starts making sense

I think that's the scariest alternative yet proposed.

Worse then the universe being a dedicated server of the the Sims?
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
At least that wouldn't be as bad as the whole thing being a competitive StarCraft game.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
Worse then the universe being a dedicated server of the the Sims?

Not nearly enough people have been walled inside their bathroom mysteriously for that.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
Conscious decision making does not equate to free will, because such decisions are made within a context created by the biological parameters I've already discussed.  Battuta is referring to conscious decision making.

Free will is traditionally thought as the ability to make ANY decision from the available pool of limitless possibilities and attempt to carry it out.

you see the problem I have with this definition of free will is that it effectively boils down to saying that free will equates to completely random, nonsensical behavior. I prefer to define free will as any rational decision making process which can come to any possible conclusion if given a proper stimulus. I do not think that free will is nesicaraly mutually exclusive with determinism, and it only makes since to say that they are if you define one as being the opposite of the other, which seems like a foolish way to define such things. unless your concept of free will is, as I said, complete randomness, then saying that it must be nondeterministic is just unfounded.

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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
If I may make a small point regarding the goals of religion: originally (and it can still be witnessed in the religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt, as well as the old stories of the OT) religion was created to explain the world. Why things are the way they are (why the sky seems to touch the earth at the horizon, why there's fresh water coming out of the sea near Bahrain, why there's a Nile-flooding every year, etc.)
Using religion to instill morality is a later concept.
It's an evolution that's visible in the ancient texts and it's an evolution that is generally accompanied by an evolution of the way the deities behave. Usually they start out damn nasty (the gods of ancient Mesopotamia were not a nice bunch), only to mellow out as the concept of religion itself matures.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
At least that wouldn't be as bad as the whole thing being a competitive StarCraft game.

We're still in the "20 minutes no rush phase" .... just wait ;)

  

Offline Turambar

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Re: moral relativism can suck it
nuclear launch detected
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D