Author Topic: OT - Make your own Bush Speech  (Read 11007 times)

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Offline Knight Templar

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
hehe i didn't mean to use that. I know what it means in spanish, lemme fix that :)
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Offline CP5670

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
lol :lol: :D

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if he said something like that during a speech... :p

 

Offline aldo_14

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


Small clarification here: Sharon didn't start any trouble. He visited the Temple Mount. The Palestinians used that as an excuse to start making trouble, claiming that he desecrated it or whatever - B.S.


The point is that he gave them an excuse.  And as you said, they considered it holy, and he should have been aware of the consequences - especially as the Palestinians already regard him as a war criminal.

In retrospect, it almost seems a calculated move to gain power by sabotaging the peace process.

 

Offline Sandwich

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


The point is that he gave them an excuse.  And as you said, they considered it holy, and he should have been aware of the consequences - especially as the Palestinians already regard him as a war criminal.

In retrospect, it almost seems a calculated move to gain power by sabotaging the peace process.


They consider it holy, the Jews consider it holy, and the Christians consider it holy - so what? Only Moslems should be able to visit without fearing for their lives?? Screw that.

I could say the same kind of thing about Arafat travelling through Bethlehem. Birthplace of Jesus and all that, holy place, etc etc - and Arafat is, well... a terrorist, at the very least. :doubt:
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Su-tehp

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
They consider it holy, the Jews consider it holy, and the Christians consider it holy - so what? Only Moslems should be able to visit without fearing for their lives?? Screw that.


I agree. The Second Intifada has lasted more than two years and it all started because Sharon visited a holy site? Since when is that a high crime?

The Palestinians used Sharon's visit as an excuse to start the uprising, nothing more. If it was just because of Sharon's visit, this intifada would have burned itself out long ago.

Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I could say the same kind of thing about Arafat travelling through Bethlehem. Birthplace of Jesus and all that, holy place, etc etc - and Arafat is, well... a terrorist, at the very least. :doubt:


There was a Muslim woman here at law school for the spring semester and for the summer; she was taking some L.L.M. classes, I think. When I had just seen news of a new suicide bombing on the news and I told her that Arafat was the terrorist responsible for the bombings, she actually said to me that "Arafat is a freedom fighter." Her exact words!

I was so disgusted with her after that comment I never associated with her again. Every time she showed up, I made excuses and left. Thank God she finally finished her L.L.M. classes and left when the fall semester began.

Anyone who approves the calculated murder of innocent civilians or does nothing to stop it is no friend of freedom. And anyone who says that Arafat is motivated by the welfare of his people is either a liar or a fool.
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Offline phreak

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
well if firefighters fight fire... then what do freedom fighters fight?
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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
This isn't a view about the rights and wrongs but - one mans terriorist is another mans freedom fighter. No don't similar view were expressed during the American War of Indepence. The British saw them as terriorists and the Americans as hero's. Who was right? Who was wrong?

And about Bushs war on Iraq. Remember he's got weapons or mass destruction, he wasn't democratically elected and wants to wage war on smaller nations. And Saddams not much better either.
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Offline Sandwich

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
No don't similar view were expressed during the American War of Indepence. The British saw them as terriorists and the Americans as hero's.


:rolleyes: No, the British saw them as rebels, which was a perfectly accurate description. They rebelled against a ruling nation, fought armed forces to armed forces, and eventually won.

Getting back to my home turf, if all the Palestinians did these last 2 years was make attacks on Israeli soldiers and military targets, as opposed to the mix of soldiers and civillians that they have been attacking, then - as much as I dislike the battling and all - fine. When you rise up to oppose a nation, that nation's military is a valid target. You declare war, both sides fight it out, and that's that.

But the Palestinians aren't that stupid - they know that if it were a "simple" matter of "them" against "us", we'd win, hands down. So out-and-out war isn't an option for them. But instead of choosing the path of a political battle (one which, through the years, has always been hampered by their terrorist attacks on civillian targets), they chose to substantially increase the terrorisim. Not too smart, I say. Especially considering that Arafat was offered 95% (approx. - the exact number escapes me) of the "territories" (Judea, Samaria, and Gaza) by Barak through political negotiations, and refused to take it.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stryke 9

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Actually, for their time, the American rebels WERE terrorists. At a time when the Napoleonic square was the one strategy in action, they fought guerilla-style and massacred thousands more than would have died if they'd stuck to big, clunky napoleonic squares crashing into each other. And securedd an advantage that proved a winning one in the process- in the war ideals of the time, this DID amount to terrorism.

I agree on the soldier matter- as far as I'm concerned, anyone in any combat capacity of the military can't expect much to die, and seeing as how they can defend themselves adequately (or more than adequately, in this case)... I understand that Israel's one of those nations that takes drafting to such an extreme that everyone's technically in the military, which is a nasty thing for the government to do, but doesn't change affairs much. But that's not the form of war that's being fought these days- poor nations, stronger tactics. And since all of the wars these days involve VERY poor nations, total war is the strategy of the day. It's quite an effective, if a bloody and heartless, strategy, actually. Long tradition of usage.

 

Offline Knight Templar

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
by the way, isn't arafat stuck inside his office/headquarters/bunker place right now? like literally, israel like demolished the rest of his complex and so he can't get out ?
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Offline Su-tehp

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
by the way, isn't arafat stuck inside his office/headquarters/bunker place right now? like literally, israel like demolished the rest of his complex and so he can't get out ?


The Israelis just pulled back their cordon of Arafat's buildings, so he might be able to get out and smile for the cameras. Whatever. :doubt:

The sooner that treacherous worm dies, the better off everyone in the Middle East will be.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Israelis dance in the streets the day Arafat dies of a heart attack (fat f*ck that he is). God/Jehovah/Allah/Yahweh knows I'll be celebrating that day. ;7 :D :cool:
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Offline Sandwich

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Actually, for their time, the American rebels WERE terrorists. At a time when the Napoleonic square was the one strategy in action, they fought guerilla-style and massacred thousands more than would have died if they'd stuck to big, clunky napoleonic squares crashing into each other. And securedd an advantage that proved a winning one in the process- in the war ideals of the time, this DID amount to terrorism.


No, you've got your terms mixed-up again. Guerilla warfare is not the same as terrorisim. Guerilla warfare involves fighting from "the shadows", quick strikes and then pulling back before the enemy can respond, taking advantage of the greater maneuverability and coordination inherent in a small force as opposed to a larger, full-scale military machine. But the use of such tactics does not nessecarily come hand in hand with attacking defenseless civillian targets.

Terrorisim, by and large, employs guerilla tactics simply because situations where terrorisim is used are, for the most part, a matter of a small group fighting a group that has a large military machine to defend itself. In order to be effective at all against that large military machine, guerilla tactics are employed in strikes against civillian targets and the military forces defending those civillians.

Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
I understand that Israel's one of those nations that takes drafting to such an extreme that everyone's technically in the military, which is a nasty thing for the government to do, but doesn't change affairs much.


Here's how it goes in Israel: upon reaching the age of 18, men and women alike are drafted into serving in the military. The guys for 3 years, and the girls for 1.5+ years (not completely sure on the exact time). After completion of their mandatory service period, the women are released into civillian life, never to be bothered again, whereas the men are called up for ~25 days of reserve duty per year, until the age of 45 for the paper-pushers or 40 for the combat soldiers (I'm not completely sure about those last ages, but it's in that general range). In between the reserve periods, the guys (and I am in this situation) do not carry any weapons from the army or anything like that. They (we) are, for all intents and purposes, defenseless civillians (with military background).

As far as armed civillians goes, one can get a gun liscence here without too much trouble if one is eligble. Main factors for elegibility are the location of one's home or work - if either in inside the Green Line (Judea, Samaria or Gaza - a.k.a. the "Occupied Territories"), then one is quite likely to be issued a gun liscence. Also, if one was a certain rank in the military, one can automatically get a gun liscence if one so desires. Such rank, however, requires one to serve in the military beyond the mandatory 3 years.

Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
by the way, isn't arafat stuck inside his office/headquarters/bunker place right now? like literally, israel like demolished the rest of his complex and so he can't get out ?


Not quite - he can physically get out - it's not like all his exits have been sealed or anything. But the compound is completely surrounded, so as to prevent the escape of the dozens of terrorists that have taken refuge in Arafat's offices.

Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp

The Israelis just pulled back their cordon of Arafat's buildings, so he might be able to get out and smile for the cameras. Whatever. :doubt:


Yeah, we did, but we're not gonna leave completely without getting those terrorists. That's the whole reason we went in there to begin with, and leaving before they are apprehended would be idiotic.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Knight Templar

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OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Not quite - he can physically get out - it's not like all his exits have been sealed or anything. But the compound is completely surrounded, so as to prevent the escape of the dozens of terrorists that have taken refuge in Arafat's offices.


excellence
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Offline Stryke 9

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
guerilla tactics are employed in strikes against civillian targets and the military forces defending those civillians.


Exactly.

Terrorism is, essentially, any militant act by an organized political faction outside the bounds of traditional warfare, meant expressly to demoralize the enemy population. There you go.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9


Exactly.

Terrorism is, essentially, any militant act by an organized political faction outside the bounds of traditional warfare, meant expressly to demoralize the enemy population. There you go.


If by "traditional warfare" you mean military targets, then yes.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stryke 9

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"Traditional warfare" would be the bit with two groups of people shooting at each other, dropping bombs on each other, etc.

  

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
"Traditional warfare" would be the bit with two groups of people shooting at each other, dropping bombs on each other, etc.


Right - both are armed, both are reasonably capable of defending themselves.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


If by "traditional warfare" you mean military targets, then yes.


Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9

"Exactly.

Terrorism is, essentially, any militant act by an organized political faction outside the bounds of traditional warfare, meant expressly to demoralize the enemy population. There you go. "



i agree and disacgree with stryke in a way.

funny as how terrorism has so many defenitions and every has there own version of these defenitions. if u look in a dictionary, terrorism is defined as per-say "tomato" where as in a political science meaning or law enforcement, it means "ketchup". in other words same thing or same "things that make it what it is", but 2 diffrent ways its described, but in the end its still the same concept.

a good book i recomend is the "Critical Views of September 11" By: Eric Hershberg and Kevin W. Moore. it has contemporary essays that i can only describe as "wow". i think in reality sandwich  has a better "view" of terrorism and politics simply cause of his location and military experience. others are basing there knowledge on what they read or hear. so its good to have "an insider" out there. cause frankly i'd believe sandwich before id believe cnn.

if anyone checks out the book, they will discover that terrorism, sadly no matter how its sugar coated, is performed by anyone. any-government; thus is political terrorism. it would logicaly explain why they WTC and pentagon (although became obvious for some later) that why they were targets and not "Projects full of thousands of families".

if the gov keeps saying, there out to kill as many americans as they can, then (although the WTC coincidently can contain thousands of lives a day), only "Government" targets were hit? The WTC wasnt a privately owned office complex. the WTC itself was 70% government, even pataki had his albany offices there too. he ran his own state from there most of his last term. it just so happens that the WTC was a public/government area (The port authority is a co-owned government department by NJ/NY and has run the WTC since its construction had begun.) and thats why most casulties were civilian.

the pentagon is obviously military. so it needs no explanation.

and the suposet plane that was heaidng towards washington, the whitehouse is clearly government so thats self explanitory.

as much as our own gov says that there out to kill as many americans as they can, if this was the case, then why didnt they fly the planes into say the trump tower where there around it thousands of families live? or why not into hosing developments or projects where they could kill hundreds of families in a close area? etc etc etc. the government says "al qadea" was to kill as many people as they can, where as if u watch them damn videos of laden etc, the translations there and by the media state there after the infidels, as hard as that is to believe, there refering to the government themselves. Bush's (senior and current) government. Clinton only delt with the bombing of the USS Cole so what then? (the ethics of international Political terrorism).

as far as people are concerned, were only getting hit @ "specific" targets just like our "smart weaponry" agiasnt them, but they are just slopy and ended up killing 3000 -/+ civilians and FDNY- law enforcment.

so in the terms of conventional warfare, the united states has no enemies that threaten its soveriegnty. nation states sorta ceased to be enemies (major nations atleast). only nations still *****in (excuse the language) is always the left overs of the cold war, etc., n. korea/s. korea, rebels in india, isreal and palastine (no state yet officially), iran, iraq etc.  so one can argue, like now, why hit iraq? cause they threaten us? nope, they threaten our so-called intrests... now we trying to get oil in africa. to me this whole **** sounds like bush is trying to be like franklin roosevelt when he sent naval ships to south america back in the 1900's to open shipping lanes up down there and in panama.

 

Offline Stryke 9

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That's not even really questionable. While the WTC towers were still standing, they were almost universally recognized as symbols of rapacious capitalist greed, ond the effects of such globally- even people who didn't feel there was anything wrong with corporate greed and screwing over foreign countries recognized that. The symbol of the exploding trade towers was widely beloved in some counterculture circles until it actually happened, which just goes to show that the "radical" left these days is pretty much a buncha weak-kneed hypocrites. Anyway. Nobody is trying to kill all Americans. Aside from the fact that it wouldn't accomplish much, it'd be damned hard to do. Possibly some groups wouldn't mind doing so, if they were able to, but nobody even remotely fitting the description of functionally sane has that on their agenda. Ignore the propoganda- Osama bin Laden is not insane, at least on any level that deals with tactics. He's brilliant, and he hates us, and doesn't care if we're alive or dead. I can understand the sentiment. But he wasn't even thinking about the death toll when he planned the attack- he was sending a clear message to the world, and particularly to the US, that the Middle East was not to be ****ed with, by striking at the two most powerful, "evil" symbols in the US- the symbol of American greed and shallow materialism, and the symbol of death and jingoism. At the time, I can guarantee there wasn't a doubt in anyone's mind that everyone would get the message. Unfortunately for them (and for a good number of civilians) they miscalculated the effect a massive civvie death toll would have, and didn't take into account our tendency to forget that which is inconvienient to our causes. Next to nobody remembers how hated the WTC in particular was now- now it's remembered as a symbol much the same as the Statue of Liberty, only with hundreds of people in it.

Tactical error, and an unfortunate one for all involved. In my opinion, if they'd skipped the WTC and concentrated on finishing off the Pentagon, though their message about economic meddling would have gone unsaid, people would've gotten the point, and nobody would be in this mess the world's in now (never mind that no real civilians would be dead. Anyone who has any business at all in the Pentagon is by denfinition in the business of killing, and they have none of my sympathies- and few of the rest of the worlds'. Note how much the Pentagon attack was minimized as a consideration)

And "terrorism" has gained the same usage as "communism" had until recently. It's anyone or anything you don't like. Thus, drugs are terrorists, anyone who doesn't want World War III is "supporting the terrorists", and we'd like to allow free trade and open our borders but the terrorists would take advantage.

 
OT - Make your own Bush Speech
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
That's not even really questionable. While the WTC towers were still standing, they were almost universally recognized as symbols of rapacious capitalist greed, ond the effects of such globally- even people who didn't feel there was anything wrong with corporate greed and screwing over foreign countries recognized that. The symbol of the exploding trade towers was widely beloved in some counterculture circles until it actually happened, which just goes to show that the "radical" left these days is pretty much a buncha weak-kneed hypocrites. Anyway. Nobody is trying to kill all Americans. Aside from the fact that it wouldn't accomplish much, it'd be damned hard to do. Possibly some groups wouldn't mind doing so, if they were able to, but nobody even remotely fitting the description of functionally sane has that on their agenda. Ignore the propoganda- Osama bin Laden is not insane, at least on any level that deals with tactics. He's brilliant, and he hates us, and doesn't care if we're alive or dead. I can understand the sentiment. But he wasn't even thinking about the death toll when he planned the attack- he was sending a clear message to the world, and particularly to the US, that the Middle East was not to be ****ed with, by striking at the two most powerful, "evil" symbols in the US- the symbol of American greed and shallow materialism, and the symbol of death and jingoism. At the time, I can guarantee there wasn't a doubt in anyone's mind that everyone would get the message. Unfortunately for them (and for a good number of civilians) they miscalculated the effect a massive civvie death toll would have, and didn't take into account our tendency to forget that which is inconvienient to our causes. Next to nobody remembers how hated the WTC in particular was now- now it's remembered as a symbol much the same as the Statue of Liberty, only with hundreds of people in it.

Tactical error, and an unfortunate one for all involved. In my opinion, if they'd skipped the WTC and concentrated on finishing off the Pentagon, though their message about economic meddling would have gone unsaid, people would've gotten the point, and nobody would be in this mess the world's in now (never mind that no real civilians would be dead. Anyone who has any business at all in the Pentagon is by denfinition in the business of killing, and they have none of my sympathies- and few of the rest of the worlds'. Note how much the Pentagon attack was minimized as a consideration)

And "terrorism" has gained the same usage as "communism" had until recently. It's anyone or anything you don't like. Thus, drugs are terrorists, anyone who doesn't want World War III is "supporting the terrorists", and we'd like to allow free trade and open our borders but the terrorists would take advantage.


well put bro, i agree bin laden is not insane, infact, he's a very sane man with the intelligence to supress his own people into thinking (using religion), into doing his bidding, the day he straps a bomb on his chest and blows some **** up lol bin laden is insane. so yes hes very sane, sadly sick sadistic and this ussually makes a brilliant man in the wrong ways of life. oh well NOBODY are angels, not even us americans, but like everyone sez, killing is killing, and its not justafiable by any means etc.; back tot he topic @ hand, make ur own bush speech, i wonder, what he would say if he saw this gam screen...