[Warlock]

LOL Ya know I swear some days I think HLP needs to be renamed to "The Blatantly ***** about America BB"

When half the ones here whining are willing to put their asses on the line and sign up for duty, call me. It's just sad that for the most part it seems patriotism is a ****in fad. 9-11, all the flags ppl ran out of bought , meant dick to 90% of them as it was just "the thing to do".
Worldwide it's even stupider.

Anyways we'll always agree to disagree here, but in realiality none of the opinions here mean crap as it's not really going to change a damned thing.

Heh personally I would LOVE to see the US change and close it's borders and let the rest of the world rot.

[Tiara]

LOL 11 votes that America should get nuked!

And that while we were talking if the US should go to war with Iraq...

[wEvil]

Originally posted by Warlock
Heh personally I would LOVE to see the US change and close it's borders and let the rest of the world rot.

Please do.

[CP5670]

Warlock certainly has a point there; this is a military operation, and people are asking for "evidence?" I think that they are already publicizing way too much stuff, but that is one of the big problems with a republic; if they had done it right, we wouldn't know anything at all about this Iraq issue.

My point is, would you let your country(I assume you are an american) to attack absolutely anyone just because the government says so?

In this case it would be fine, since as I said before, we have little to lose.

I am fundamentally against any attempt by western nations to spread their capitalist sedition under the guise of "security" "containment" or "war on terror". I'm not saying the other guys are saints, i'm saying this will cause problems in the long run and its going to get harder to make everything right the longer you all SIT ON YOUR ARSES AND PRETEND EVERTYHINGS' OK.

No, like I said in that other thread, the only way that this system can be permanently removed is through its unprecedented success. If you have some kind of revolution, it will eventually be once again replaced with something like the current system. We want to unite the world under the current way of life and then watch it change internally.

Besides, what is it costing us to spread the "capitalist sedition?" Our lives will be unaffected by the result of this, so honestly speaking, the last two options in this poll are the only real choices. (unless you live in Iraq, of course)

Anyways we'll always agree to disagree here, but in realiality none of the opinions here mean crap as it's not really going to change a damned thing.

That's the good thing about this.

[wEvil]

Originally posted by CP5670
That's the good thing about this.

or not depending a more in depth objective analysis.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by CP5670
No, like I said in that other thread, the only way that this system can be permanently removed is through its unprecedented success. If you have some kind of revolution, it will eventually be once again replaced with something like the current system. We want to unite the world under the current way of life and then watch it change internally.

I wouldn't say that. Just because that's how things have turned out so far doesn't mean that's how they will always be. Although admittingly, the right conditions for a permanent revolution are very, very hard to come by (There's zero chance of it happening in the west). If Lenin's Bolshevik party had been more careful to avoid internel degeneration, followed by sucsessful revolutions in Other, less backward countries then it had every chance of working out.

[wEvil]

I do find it very sad many people are so unimaginative, uninterested, uninteresting and dead inside that they cannot or will not consider that an alternative system would ever work.

We've tried this way, its been going for over 300 years in its current form and all its' generated is misery for practically everyone.

Try something else, try anything else - just dont give up and stick with this because "It works".  It does not work.  It only looks like it does because you've lost the will to improve.

[vyper]

Originally posted by wEvil
I do find it very sad many people are so unimaginative, uninterested, uninteresting and dead inside that they cannot or will not consider that an alternative system would ever work.

We've tried this way, its been going for over 300 years in its current form and all its' generated is misery for practically everyone.

Try something else, try anything else - just dont give up and stick with this because "It works".  It does not work.  It only looks like it does because you've lost the will to improve.

Please tell me where it does not work for me?

[Ace]

Originally posted by Bobboau
well it would be fun to nuke sadam we could just use our conventional weapons and instal a democratic republic in his place

and how's this for some evedence, a bunch of guys were just caut in turky 130 miles from the Iraqi border with 30 pounds of weapons grade uranium

or something a little simpler, Iraq kicked UN inspectors out and won't let them back in to see what they have, Iraq hates us (not just America, but the entire western world) becase we wooped his ass so baddly, and is, at the least idealogicaly, alighed with these islamic terrorists

In truth, the only reason I am against a war with Iraq is due to the fact that ever since Korea the United States has done a half-ass job in any armed conflict.

In Afghanistan is the Marshall Plan being enforced to turn it into a Democratic Republic? No, the US has been opposed to aid from other allied nations to build their economy to prevent such conflicts in the future.

In the Gulf-War we did not level Bagdhad and put in a democracy. Why? Because the war was and still is over oil and not the defense of democracy and civilization.

America itself as a multicultural society is a wonderful thing. However, the US does what is expedient in it's foreign policy, not what is right.

Will Bush install a Republic in Iraq if he is given a war? Afghanistan has proven he will not. Thus Bush and his policies have no concern for the longterm wellfare of the American people.

Anyone who wishes to argue these points faces that these are based on observations from hard facts. A true Republic requires an economy which supports a middle class, Afghanistan currently lacks this and there are no plans emplaced to build an economy which will have one. Thus my points are valid.

[Knight Templar]

You Know what would totally catch me off gaurd?

say another country... perhaps china or maybe Russia ( ) says "hey, **** america, lets walk in and kill Saddam and take the oil for ourselves."

You never hear that usually CNN: "Today, China/Russia brutally attacked and slaughtered millions of Iraqi's in a uncalled and brutally heinos attack. President Bush has condemmned the attacks and says that unless They withdraw, he will be forced to use millatary force."

hmmmm.. U.S. Turf-War :wink:

[Ace]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
You Know what would totally catch me off gaurd?

say another country... perhaps china or maybe Russia ( ) says "hey, **** america, lets walk in and kill Saddam and take the oil for ourselves."

You never hear that usually CNN: "Today, China/Russia brutally attacked and slaughtered millions of Iraqi's in a uncalled and brutally heinos attack. President Bush has condemmned the attacks and says that unless They withdraw, he will be forced to use millatary force."

hmmmm.. U.S. Turf-War :wink:

That's close to what the Russians did in Kosovo

[Knight Templar]

well i haven't heard of China since the U.S. Spy plane "crash", i think it's somebodies deal now..

[Stryke 9]

Originally posted by vyper


Please tell me where it does not work for me?

You happy with your life? Your one aspiration a white picket fence and a well-mown lawn, paid for by sitting at a desk accomplishing nothing for years of your life? You happy being a mindless cell in a machine that has little use for you, doesn't give a **** for you, and will spit you out as soon as you show warning signs of becoming useless, to sit and rot out of sight of the rest of society, as an embarassment? You happy worrying all your life over fancy green cigarette paper and metal slugs (or, now, imaginary gigarette paper and slugs)? Well, your thing, I guess. Most people aren't.

[vyper]

Originally posted by Stryke 9


You happy with your life? Your one aspiration a white picket fence and a well-mown lawn, paid for by sitting at a desk accomplishing nothing for years of your life? You happy being a mindless cell in a machine that has little use for you, doesn't give a **** for you, and will spit you out as soon as you show warning signs of becoming useless, to sit and rot out of sight of the rest of society, as an embarassment? You happy worrying all your life over fancy green cigarette paper and metal slugs (or, now, imaginary gigarette paper and slugs)? Well, your thing, I guess. Most people aren't.

See this is what pisses me off, royally! Just because thats all YOU can see in this society, does not mean thats what everyone else is limited to.

[JBX-Phoenix]

yet another pointless country bashing thread. tsk-tsk

[Stryke 9]

Originally posted by vyper


See this is what pisses me off, royally! Just because thats all YOU can see in this society, does not mean thats what everyone else is limited to.

All right, you go try and live the life you always dreamed of, back when you were a kid and before your expectations were artificially lowered. What'd you wanna be? Astronaut? Rock star? Cowboy? Test pilot?

I have yet to see anyone who felt that the highest one could reach in life was to be a pediatrician or lawyer- and in this society, that's about as far as you can get. So tell me- what'd you always dream of doing when you were a grown-up, and how the **** are you doing anything close to it now? About .1% of the country- MAYBE- is doing what is known as "living life to the fullest"- doing something with their lives that anyone could see one would want to do for their entire life. I know several- they're people to aspire to be. But for every one of them, there are many thousand who settle for less, settle for nothing, are nothing, till they die (a change few notice). REALLY. Get real, man!

[JBX-Phoenix]

Its post like these that screw up threads (though I dunno how this thread could get worse).  IMO, a post like the one above me (strykes) should be pm'd to the one it is intended to.

[CP5670]

or not depending a more in depth objective analysis.

Well, if it was true, there would be a world-wide anarchy instead of governments. (as I said, democracy just does not work the way it is supposed to because of the way the common people's minds operate in groups; the governments simply cannot go by what the people complain about, or they would end up doing the most ridiculous things and would be long dead)

I wouldn't say that. Just because that's how things have turned out so far doesn't mean that's how they will always be. Although admittingly, the right conditions for a permanent revolution are very, very hard to come by (There's zero chance of it happening in the west). If Lenin's Bolshevik party had been more careful to avoid internel degeneration, followed by sucsessful revolutions in Other, less backward countries then it had every chance of working out.

You could well be right about that, but still, the odds are heavily against it based on what have seen so far in history along with the workings of the mind of today's man. I personally am more for the Schumpeterian view than the Marxian one in regards to the establishment of a stable communist state; it would grow right out of a long-lasting capitalism instead of through eschewing capitalism in a bang. Although as I said, the revolution option is by no means impossible. I think that if Lenin had lived a bit longer, the USSR would have really turned into a much more powerful and stable institution, since everything was going quite well until his death and the subsequent power struggle.

You happy being a mindless cell in a machine that has little use for you...

This is the equivalent of asking a cell whether or not it is "happy" being a part of an organism.

I have yet to see anyone who felt that the highest one could reach in life was to be a pediatrician or lawyer- and in this society, that's about as far as you can get. So tell me- what'd you always dream of doing when you were a grown-up, and how the **** are you doing anything close to it now? About .1% of the country- MAYBE- is doing what is known as "living life to the fullest"- doing something with their lives that anyone could see one would want to do for their entire life. I know several- they're people to aspire to be. But for every one of them, there are many thousand who settle for less, settle for nothing, are nothing, till they die (a change few notice). REALLY. Get real, man!

so...what are you trying to say? That every person should get exactly what they want in regards to their profession? That simply cannot be done as long as more than one human exists in the world, and this is all the more true in a society; not everyone is going to be able to become, say, a, top-notch programmer, because not only do everyone's skills significantly vary (and therefore some are better suited than others), but the society only needs so many programmers and it needs other positions to be filled up. Besides, people sometimes set unrealistic goals given the circumstances. I am aspiring to be a pure mathematics researcher/professor, which shouldn't be that hard since there are few people in that area nowadays (everyone goes into applied stuff), although if for some reason I cannot go into this field, there are a number of other related things I have in mind.

Its post like these that screw up threads (though I dunno how this thread could get worse). IMO, a post like the one above me (strykes) should be pm'd to the one it is intended to.

I'm not even sure what he is trying to say...

[Warlock]

Heh yea let's blame society for the fact that we're not all we've ever wanted to be in life. Hell let's sue!!!

Ok now would be a good time to pull your head OUT of your ass and think with it.

[Stryke 9]

Originally posted by CP5670

so...what are you trying to say? That every person should get exactly what they want in regards to their profession? That simply cannot be done as long as more than one human exists in the world, and this is all the more true in a society; not everyone is going to be able to become, say, a, top-notch programmer, because not only do everyone's skills significantly vary (and therefore some are better suited than others), but the society only needs so many programmers and it needs other positions to be filled up. Besides, people sometimes set unrealistic goals given the circumstances. I am aspiring to be a pure mathematics researcher/professor, which shouldn't be that hard since there are few people in that area nowadays (everyone goes into applied stuff), although if for some reason I cannot go into this field, there are a number of other related things I have in mind.
 

No, I'm saying a society where the aspirations and the realities are so widely divergent is, by definition, a screwed-up one. I don't care about "exactly"- nobody ever even comes close. I don't know whether to fault the part of society that sets the hopes and aspirations, or the part that limits one to being a worthless drone. Either way, ****ed-up. And that's not normally the case- look at any culture not largely overtaken by our own, and you'll see that nobody has any pipe dreams, but they more or less usually have a chance to define themselves as individuals. Though I might have phrased it badly, that's the point I'm making- everyone wants to be themself, clearly different from everywhere else, and it just plain ain't happening. The displays of "individualism" that DO go on in this society, rare as they are, are generally pathetic, furtive little midlife-crisis-like spending sprees or done via the purchase of designer clothing- the capitalist's soul is bared. It's just... wrong, particularly for a society that places so much weight on the individual (it's one thing to see hundreds of, say, Chinese living the same life, with their long culture of collectivism. Here, where everyone's expected to be a ****ing special snowflake, nobody is, and thus everyone's unhappy).

And you're wrong, anyway. After a certain, very early point in life, what one wants to do with it starts to conform with one's native ability to get to do this- I never really wanted to be a mathemetician, more of a writer/artist sort, because that's what I'm good at, and thus what I like. Same with everyone. After that point, it's mostly experience and education- I COULD become a virtuoso programmer, if that was my interest. I AM a good (relative to those around me, at least) writer. The visual direction, I'm working on, but I'm already a fairly accomplished amateur photographer, and I think you could tell how my CG work has improved, if I showed you my old stuff.